How would you reply?

[Pretender]

Great answer Kulapavana Prabhu! Apologies in advance for my previous crass attempt at levity. Most of the souls I deal with in the hinterlands of Florida crackerdom are proponents of their own perceptions of Christianity which I do not discourage. And I try to be friendly and affectionate with them regardless. I try and seek out the fundamental number one lowest common denominator in each individual case and deal with them from there. I am able to have amicable discussions of the Divine with them without them ever knowing that I am non-Christian. When Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door I am impressed by their dedication, courage and enthusiasm. I offer them a glass of water and briefly discuss spirituality with them in a provocative yet affectionate friendly way and circuitous manner which eventually causes them to need to go on without direct ideological confrontation and causes them to walk off scratching their heads in a manner of speaking. I'm the same way with all people of all diverse faiths.

 

There are two stories that come to mind from the Beautiful and Pragmatic personal teachings of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Once one of his followers told him how he was getting Muslims to chant Krishna instead of Allah. He was soundly reprimanded by His Divine Grace, "Why are you making my movement into a sectarian thing?!!!" And also he once cautioned his followers about preaching to Christians to give up their faith and take to Krishna Consciousness instead, that if they don't actually take to Krishna Consciousness there is some danger that they will be left with no faith at all. Like a riven cloud, with no position in any sphere.

 

My personal approach is based upon respect for others and tolerance wherein I am reaching and not preaching. Therefore I don't ever get into so-called religious arguments and I'm not the least intimidated if people don't believe as I do when I attempt to reach out to suffering souls as a kindly friend to all. And I never discourage anyone from their unique subjective faith in the sublime Divine. What to speak of tit for tat comparisons. After all are we not souls? And a soul by any other name remains a soul.

[Kulapavana]

Srila Prabhupada would relate to others based on their conditioning, yet at the same time touching their soul. That is what people appreciate and need.

 

In our preaching we are too often focusing on someone "joining" our camp, instead of merely trying to hep this person make a next step in spiritual life. There is usually no need to show that our tradition is better then the one this person is currently embracing. We just need to explain our tradition to them in a way they will understand and appreciate. Beating people over the head with strong arguments rarely works, even if our arguments are valid. We need to learn how to simply present the beauty of Krsna and the sweet nature of Krsna cosnciousness process. That is what attracts people and what changes their heart.

[rohini108]

I remember when the book, Preaching is the Essence was released. In it Srila Prabhupada said that the first step, when preaching, is to make friends with that person. I found this so profound. So natural. This is the approach I always take, always being careful that friendship is the foundation. Even if a person never asks me a single question about my religion ...about Lord Krishna ...if at the end of that person's life he looks back on me and say's to his friends, "Well, I really don't know what he believes. I know its different, but what matters is that he is one of my best friends."

Srila Prabhupada said that just appreciating a devotee is a great step forward ...full of blessings. rsd

[cbrahma]

Proseltyzing doesn't seem to be the way of Vaisnavism. That is more the Christian style. However Western aspiring Vaisnavas take on that Christian zeal beating people over the head with scripture.

I have 'joined' and the last impression I ever got was 'sweetness'. The 'beauty' of Krsna was so completely offset by the ugliness of the practioners behavior, it just seemed like some cold unattainable goal in a hopelessly cruel process of religious qualification.

[Pretender]

Well said. And unfortunately sadly all too true. Never mind which camp. Because of this, Real Krishna Consciousness doesn't really get out to the suffering masses which is Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga's Real Intent and Purpose. Instead of luminosity there's mostly animosity created by officious religiousity.

 

Personally, I'm just vegetarian white trash. Most souls I encounter never know what "faith" I to and are therefore not threatened by my immediate environmentally pertinent philosophical response to any given circumstance.

 

I haven't worn the external adornments of Sri Gaudiya Vaishnavism for many decades(although I don't discourage others from doing so).Yet the Vaishnavas are like my Deities along with Sri Hari Nam Prabhu and I still have vivid dreams of Srila Prabhupada all the time.

 

Srila Prabhupada tells us that preaching must be based upon real compassion for the suffering of others. To me this is more reaching(as in reaching out to to others) than preaching.

[Beggar]

Hold your horses Pretender and go and look at:

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr valign="bottom"><td></td> <td> </td> <td width="100%">Audarya Fellowship <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link --> > Main Forums <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link --> > Spiritual Discussions <!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link --> > <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link --> The Letter</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Beggar]

Yes, it was the letter from Srila Prabhupada to Rupanuga, April 28, 1974. The thread was started on 12-04-2007 and the administrator felt that the thread had to be closed because of the acrimonious nature of the discussion.

The ensuing debate was about whether the letter was for time, place and circumstance. I felt that cbrahma was "hitting over the head" those who take solace in the words of Srila Sridhar Maharaj with that "letter". Now what is the result of such an attitude against such an exalted soul?

[Pretender]

Why don't we just debate/argue/quarrel how many angels can fit on the end of a pin and be done with it? Those who are sincere won't be deceived by evil. Beggar my dear friend, it's all a question of mood and mind or it's not what you say but how you say it. Even if I have the right idea, I can push people away by exuding the wrong mood.

 

Or as Srila Prabhupada tells all souls for all time from preface/intro to Sri Upadeshamrta :"Advancement in Krishna Consciousness is dependant upon the attitude of the follower."

 

As you well know, Srila Sridhar Maharaj is also my Master. To this day to think of how he was so rudely treated causes me to weep in great sorrow.

[theist]

 

Srila Prabhupada would relate to others based on their conditioning, yet at the same time touching their soul. That is what people appreciate and need.

 

In our preaching we are too often focusing on someone "joining" our camp, instead of merely trying to hep this person make a next step in spiritual life. There is usually no need to show that our tradition is better then the one this person is currently embracing. We just need to explain our tradition to them in a way they will understand and appreciate. Beating people over the head with strong arguments rarely works, even if our arguments are valid. We need to learn how to simply present the beauty of Krsna and the sweet nature of Krsna cosnciousness process. That is what attracts people and what changes their heart.

 

I love this thinking. If you want to talk to Christians further then you can reach them through the teaching of Christ. Jesus totally was renounced to the things of this world and only approached the Lord for service. Help them break their attachment to the mundane world and encourage them to become more fervert in their devotion to Christ and The Supreme Lord. Even though the Bible has little information and much disinformation on the nature of the Lord if they become truly devoteed to Christ and try to follow His teachings they will go to planet that Prabhupada called Christ-loka and there receive further knowledge.

 

This trying to make someone become a member of our camp is kanistha mentality.

[Beggar]

This camp, that camp. What about camping in general:

Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse and Goofy - Camping Trip

Posted by: mrvuong1987

 

Video duration: 315 seconds

Global video hits: 535620

 

[url="http://campingvideos.outdooradventuretoday.com/video-theme/phim.html"]

[theist]

 

Srila Prabhupada tells us that preaching must be based upon real compassion for the suffering of others. To me this is more reaching(as in reaching out to to others) than preaching.

 

Absolutely. Kanistha's "preach" on the "my camp" level. Higher devotees are experiencing some compassion for others. One quality of a Vaisnava is they cannot tolerate the suffering of others.

 

The word preachng comes with a lot of baggage for us in the west due to our experiences with the fanatic Bible thumpers we have encountered. I also prefer reaching-out or sharing God consciousness with others.

 

I had a wonderful experience while checking out my grocercies at Whole Foods a couple days ago. The checker was singing very quietly some song in an African language. I could hardly hear her but she was glowing in a reserved quiet joy as she sang.

 

I asked her what she was singing and she said, "I am just singing praises to God" and "I am so happy". Her joy touched me at that moment and she changed my morning without even trying. She was connecting with the Lord through song. Philosophy? Theology? Never came up. I never asked her if she was a Christian or something else. She was just a tiny soul connecting with the Supreme Soul. Another lesson I must try to learn. At that moment she was my siksa guru.

 

Something powerful about the simple way. Simple faith, simply opening the heart to the presence of the Lord.

[rohini108]

 

...this, Real Krishna Consciousness doesn't really get out to the suffering masses which is Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga's Real Intent and Purpose. Instead of luminosity there's mostly animosity created by officious religiousity. quote]

 

Many years ago I was feeding the homeless under the banner of Food of Life. Mostly I was dealing with drunks and dopers and I found the service lacking. Even so, we had a solid program going. Then one day a tornado struck a small community nearby. I didn't think much about it at the time but after two nights I saw an interview on the television about this guy who just packed up his van full of food and went out there to help. Somehow this moved me and the next morning I took our Food for Life van out to this community. After talking my way past the police lines, I began feeding what I suddenly discovered was an entirely different group of "homeless" ...those who are temporaily homeless due to a natural disaster. I was also feeding police, firemen, new reporters, etc. Along with this discovery was a whole new level of appreciation that I had never recieved from the homeless I had been dealing with back in Denver. People actually thanked me from the bottom of their hearts.

 

I then took several disaster-relief classes from the State of Colorado and earned some certification. I began to understand the mechanic that take place during a disaster. Such as just who is authorized to enter the disaster zone.

 

Things began to occur to me and I founded, Krishna Disaster Relief. I joined the Colorado branch of NOVAD. One day I received a call from the head of the American Red Cross in Denver and was told that a man from Washington, D.C. wanted to speak with me at the Denver Federal Center. During this meeting the gentleman invited Krishna Disaster Relief to become a member of NOVAD, which is a federal government agency that host a number of disaster relief agencies. He told me that NOVAD was running into a great number of vegetarians during their disaster relief work and wanted Krishna Disaster Relief to help out. This was key to getting past the police lines and into the center of the disaster. People love a hero and I felt that here was an excellent way to make a huge impact with an enormously wide section of the public. What if everytime there was a disaster ...that is always shown in living color by CNN and Fox News ...inside millions of home ...what if everytime they sat watching one of these events unfold in their livingrooms, there was Lord Krishna helping out?

 

Also, what a wonderful activity to attract new members into the ranks of Srila Prabhupada. Talk about exciting! The alarm rings and everyone flies into action. There is an ocean of nectar here.

 

This is still a valid concept, in my opinion. I wrote and published all of this down in book form. You can read it here: Lord Krishna in the 21st Century .

 

http://www.cedarpost.com/LK21/default.htm

 

Back during the time I was trying to make all this happen, I simply could not get ISKCON's full backing. Look, I am simply a pot washer. But the concept did seem to appeal to many. At the time, H. H. Tamal Krsna Goswami gave me $500 to try to make it a reality. Also, H. H. Bhakta Tirta Swami (sp?) gave me his full blessing. But other key power figures in ISKCON were not moved. Like I said, I'm only the pot washer and I don't think they wanted to invest much power into me. And never being one to keep quiet, I am certain that didn't help my cause, either. I have to accept the lions share of the failure.

 

Sadly, I ended up having to decline their offer, asking instead for a rain check. This was hard for me to believe. Here was the United States Government extending a warm invitation to Krishna Disaster Relief to become part of our nation's disaster relief structure and I had to say, no. I don't think Srila Prabhupada would have been pleased.

 

It is still a wonderful concept. The book I wrote was my last gasp. I wrote it as a kind of a manual. Who knows, perhaps someday it will become a reality. Everyone love a hero. We say that Krishna is the greatest hero. Here is a simple formula to tie the two together. rsd

[Kulapavana]

 

Those who are sincere won't be deceived by evil.

 

I am not sure that this is the case. Evil has a very powerful effect on people, even those who are sincere.

 

Evil must be washed away with the copious amounts of good, otherwise it leaves a big ugly stain on whatever it touched.

 

That is how I see it, especially in the context of our movement. There are still plenty of ugly stains on it, so we must roll up our sleeves and start scrubbing...

[Kulapavana]

 

As you well know, Srila Sridhar Maharaj is also my Master. To this day to think of how he was so rudely treated causes me to weep in great sorrow.

 

When I think of the fate that Gaudiya Matha experienced, the quarrells, the divisions, etc. and what later on happened to ISKCON, I often think it is all a result of the "chopping technique" used by the Saraswatas in their preaching. It inevitably leads to offending a lot of good Vaishnavas, which in turn ruins the preaching mission. I do not think that even advanced Vaishnavas are immune to the reactions of Vaishnava aparadha.

[Pretender]

Kulapavana Prabhu,

 

The quote I gave you is a personal percololation of Srila Prabhupada's translation of the Gita verse which he translates as "One who does good, cannot be overcome by evil." & Srila Sridhar Maharaj's translation of the same verse :"One who is sincere cannot be deceived." Thesis. Anti-thesis. Synthesis. "...cannot be overcome for evil..." might be more specifically phrased in a more ultimate sense for the sake of our discussion as "... cannot be permanently overcome by evil..." or "...won't be permanently deceived by evil." I try and view things in light of eternity.

 

To me "evil" is another word that is fraught with considerations of Judeo-Christian pre-conditioning. It's another case of subjective semantical perception so what you say is also true and that even sincere people might be momentarily(in light of eternity) overcome by bad influence, illusion and misunderstanding. Please know I also wish to roll up my sleeves and start scrubbing the stain away. But inspite of the many heinous religious atrocites commited throughout history I don't personally believe in "evil" per se and strongly feel that even the "Devil" himself might be influenced to change his "evil" ways through the Affectionate Implementation of Real Krishna Consciousness. The worst actions are preceded by the worst understanding.

 

Sorrowfully, there's no doubt about the stain which you speak of and many may not know that because of the sahajiya influence prominent in the time of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Sri Gaudiya Vaishnavism was held in such ill repute that the common people in the street would spit in disgust when they saw so-called Vaishnavas(sahajiyas) begging. We can read Srila Bhaktivinode's own words in this regard from his Beautiful Bhagavat speech wherein he himself states he was personally dismissive of the so-called Vaishnavism being officially represented to the masses and so was himself more drawn to Western thinkers and Christianity. Sadly, history seems to repeat, especially when we are unable to learn from it's mistakes.

 

I'll be happy if the Vaishnavas would see fit to use me as a scouring pad to remove/scrub away the current stains wrought by "evil" acts and I even think it would be great to be allowed to preach real Krishna Consciousness to those souls suffering in the "sewers of hell." Also, I can scarcely believe the many disgraces and dishonors that have impugned Mahaprabhu's Mission of Mercy. Again. Never mind which camp.

 

Whomever is in charge of the scrubbing crew can please give me the dirtiest job and this will satisfy me greatly.

 

Yours Affectionately,

 

Jagabandhu dasa

[Beggar]

LET YOUR GURU DO THE SCRUBBING IN THE ////YELLOW PAGES////!!!

[Pretender]

Beggar Prabhu,

 

Please. This an earnest discussion amongst souls who really care about the tarnished reputation of Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan Mission and are also concerned about the suffering of others? What's that? What other people? What happened is the weather channel off the air? Nowhere to do the pick this afternoon? Can't afford a hot tub today? Why don't you just take a nice nap and dream of Florida?

[Kulapavana]

 

Sorrowfully, there's no doubt about the stain which you speak of and many may not know that because of the sahajiya influence prominent in the time of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Sri Gaudiya Vaishnavism was held in such ill repute that the common people in the street would spit in disgust when they saw so-called Vaishnavas(sahajiyas) begging. We can read Srila Bhaktivinode's own words in this regard from his Beautiful Bhagavat speech wherein he himself states he was personally dismissive of the so-called Vaishnavism being officially represented to the masses and so was himself more drawn to Western thinkers and Christianity. Sadly, history seems to repeat, especially when we are unable to learn from it's mistakes.

 

 

To some extent that was the case (prominence of the apasampradaic groups), yet that is hardly the complete picture. Just like the followers of the Judaic tradition claimed that "srong measures" had to be taken to control pagan cults sacrificing chldren, etc. and that is why entire cities were destroyed and their inhabitants killed, when in fact the pagan cults were quite benign and human sacrifices were a very rare occurence. It is easy to go overboard in such justifications.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta fought sahajiyas and traditional Gaudiya parivars using his "chopping" technique, hardly sparing anyone. Later Srila Prabhupada did the same to his Godbrothers, often accusing them of malicious intent, and now his disciples freely blaspheme senior Vaishnavas from other mathas, calling them sahajiyas and other names. On top of that ritviks spit their venom on all devotees loyal to GBC and ISKCON, especially the new gurus, and get a similar treatment from the other side. Where does it all end? This "I'm holier than thou" attitude can be very destructive, and I'm afraid this is what we are experiencing.

[Beggar]

 

This "I'm holier than thou" attitude can be very destructive, and I'm afraid this is what we are experiencing.

 

Exactly but who is qualified to "do the scrubbing"? Who is on the level of hearing and who is on the level of attainment?

[Kulapavana]

 

Exactly but who is qualified to "do the scrubbing"? Who is on the level of hearing and who is on the level of attainment?

 

By scrubbing I meant doing positive things that counteract past mistakes and evils, like the gurukuli abuse, or deviant guru scandals. Positive things like prasadam distribution, harinams, etc. can be done by devotees on all levels.

[Kulapavana]

 

Beggar Prabhu,

 

Please. This an earnest discussion amongst souls who really care about the tarnished reputation of Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan Mission and are also concerned about the suffering of others?

 

Beggar is a good man, but sometimes his posts are a bit criptic and you have to know him to understand where he is coming from.

[bhaktajan]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Pretender

Beggar Prabhu,

Please. This an earnest discussion amongst souls who really care about the tarnished reputation of Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan Mission and are also concerned about the suffering of others?

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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Beggar is a good man, but sometimes his posts are a bit criptic and you have to know him to understand where he is coming from.

 

<!-- / message -->....................................................................................................

 

What the %$#@ does any of your postings have to do with the title of the thread? --this is a rhetorical question.

 

If the original poster was ernest in wanting questions answered --then yooz guys can't "pay attention" for more than a few minutes at a time, correct?

 

Please answer the requested questions, or else, there will be no chipatis and dahl.

 

ys,

Bhaktajan

[theist]

We don't scrub movements as movements, we scrub our own hearts individually.

[bija]

'Proseltyzing doesn't seem to be the way of Vaisnavism. That is more the Christian style. However Western aspiring Vaisnavas take on that Christian zeal beating people over the head with scripture.

I have 'joined' and the last impression I ever got was 'sweetness'. The 'beauty' of Krsna was so completely offset by the ugliness of the practioners behavior, it just seemed like some cold unattainable goal in a hopelessly cruel process of religious qualification.' quote by cbrahma

Leaving impressions is where it is at for sure. It's the nature of the conditioned mind to hold impressions and cultivate more thoughts from that. So if an unsavory impression is left chances are the mind will move in that direction in its next actions. So you can imagine the wonderful fruit a nice impression of God can leave in the mind, which may be very healing for the soul.

 

Especially if the impression received was directly from the heart of the giver. The intention of the vaisnava can be to bring joy to another. And where does the vaisnava find his own joy? He finds it deep within his heart.

 

Until a living entity's good fortune has been awakened, his propensity to serve Krsna does not arise. Helping the living entities awaken their good fortune is the only proof of a Vaisnava's compassion toward them. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura (Sajjana Tosanl 4/8) from Srila Bhaktivinoda Vani Vaibhava

[Kulapavana]

 

What the %$#@ does any of your postings have to do with the title of the thread? --this is a rhetorical question.

 

If the original poster was ernest in wanting questions answered --then yooz guys can't "pay attention" for more than a few minutes at a time, correct?

 

Please answer the requested questions, or else, there will be no chipatis and dahl.

 

 

I believe that actually it does have something to do with the original question...

 

It relates to the way our movement preaches and interacts with other religious groups. Too much negative preaching usually leaves a bad impression on people that is hard to reverse.