Beware of Kali Temples - blood,alcohol and cigarette offerings

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Like you, I also abhor such practice (makes a field day for Hindu bashers) which does not represent the core of Hindu Dharma.

Dharma enjoy us to do Tyag and Tapsya based on truthfulness, purity of mind Ahimsa to name a few virtues.

Bhakti marg, Karma marg, Jnana yogi, dhyan yogi, Shakta to name few that are valid Vedic tradition that has been followed since time in memorial to say mine is the only way is not a Vedic tradition. Lord Krishna in Gita says of various ways people approach him. There are some who can not see this coming from outside the tradition and just denigrate Hindus at every opportunity.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

I am fully in concordance with you, Ganeshprasadji.

 

Jaya Mata Di

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Deva’s worship.

 

SB 8.7.20: The devas observed Lord Siva sitting on the summit of kailasa Hill with his wife, Bhavani, for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The devas offered him their obeisance’s and prayers with great respect.

 

SB 4.6/45 O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuntha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this.

Rig Veda 7.59.12

Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra

We Worship Tryambaka, Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give me Immorality.

Lord Shiva is very merciful he accepts all.

He definitely is not a half God, as if any such entity actually exist.

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Wondrous post and quotes. Most folks who have some acquaintance with traditional Hinduism find the rendering of Deva as "demigod" farcical, to put it mildly. There is no such thing as half-a-god. Still a distinction exists between the prominent swarupas of Parabrahman that we know (Lord Shiva, Lord Narayana, Maa Shakti, Lord Ganesh, Lord Skanda and so forth) and the elementary controllers of nature such as Indra, Agni, Varuna and Yama, including even Brahma, for the latter categories of beings are jivas, whereas nobody can attain the position of Vishnu, Shiva, Jagadamba or Saraswati, for the simple reason that these deities are directly Brahman manifested. And see my signature for the full Sanskrit text of the extraordinarily potent Maha Mrityunjaya mantra.

[Malati dasi]

Radhe Radhe

 

Loveofthebhagavat said: Some ignoramuses not having a clue as to how to invoke the Devi cannot become a valid reason for rejecting Maa-upasana, anymore than the existence of paedophilic ISKCON gurus render Gaudiya Vaishnavism useless.

 

 

LoveroftheBhagavat

 

Obviously, Theist did not get the point !

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

Yes, I was calling the animal sacrificers ignorant, and he seemed to interpret my statement differently.

[theist]

Vaisnavas do not worship Devi separate from Krsna or Narayana. They are never separate except in our incomplete realizations. Our realizations are incomplete because we entertain ulterior motives for our personal gain.

 

The materialist wants to enjoy Laxsmi separate from Vishnu so naturally he needs to try to separate them, although it's just a separation in his mind.

 

This was the lesson of Ravana kidnaping Sita to enjoy Her apart from Rama. Of course he only had the illusion of possessing her. In fact he only possessed the illusion of Sita (maya).

 

Vaisnavas worship them together and approach Devi and appeal to Her to please engage them in the Divine service.

 

All cheap definitions of Vaisnavism should be abandoned.

[CCC]

 

Again, one has to understand in context. It has been thought by some that the "God" as listed in the old testament is not the same one as listed in the new. This is just a theory.

Yes just a theory, but God is all powerful and He can do what He wants. there is a plan of salvation here in the west and in the east. God has many manifestation, encarnations and expansions. Is our fault if we can't understand this. Time, place and circumstances the old testament is out of date but the commandments remain. First Came Mosses, then Lord Jesus. Even you should read the the essene gospel of peace book (it is said that is a book found in the libraries in the vatican): There Mosses says To Lord Jehovah that the Commandments would very difficult for this flock and broken the stone with the first commandements then he goes back to the mountain to meet Lord Jehovah and make the arrangement for the lamb sacrifices, this was just a concesion, then Lord Jesus stopped with this but the commandments were and are the same before Him. I will post about this book.

 

 

 

From the Essene Gospel of Peace

 

 

Then another said: "Moses, the greatest in Israel, suffered our forefathers to eat the flesh of clean beasts, and forbade only the flesh of unclean beasts. Why, therefore, do you forbid us the flesh of all beasts? Which law comes from God? That of Moses, or your law?"

 

And Jesus answered: "God gave, by Moses, ten commandments to your forefathers. 'These commandments are hard,' said your forefathers, and they could not keep them. When Moses saw this, he had compassion on his people, and would not that they perish. And then he gave them ten times ten commandments. For he whose feet are strong as the mountain of Zion, needs no crutches; but he whose limbs do shake, gets further having crutches, than without them. And Moses said to the Lord: 'My heart is filled with sorrow, for my people will be lost. For they are without knowledge, and are not able to understand thy commandments. They are as little children who cannot yet understand their father's words. Suffer, Lord, that I give them other laws, that they may not perish. if they may not be with thee, Lord, let them not be against thee; that they may sustain themselves, and when the time has come, and they are ripe for thy words, reveal to hem thy laws.' For that did Moses break the two tablets of s tone whereon were written the ten commandments, and he gave them ten times ten in their stead. And of these ten times ten the Scribes and Pharisees have made a hundred times ten commandments. And they have laid unbearable burdens on your shoulders, that they themselves do not carry. For the more nigh are the commandments to God, the less do we need; and the farther they are from God, then the more do we need. Wherefore are the laws of the Pharisees and Scribes innumerable; the laws of the Son of Man seven; of the angels three; and of God one.

 

"Therefore, I teach you only those laws which you can understand, that you may become men, and follow the seven laws of the Son of Man. Then will the unknown angels of the Heavenly Father also reveal their laws to you, that God's holy spirit may descend upon you, and lead you to his law."

 

And all were astonished at his wisdom, and asked him: "Continue, Master, and teach us all the laws which we can receive."

 

And Jesus continued: "God commanded your forefathers: 'Thou shalt not kill.' But their heart was hardened and they killed. Then Moses desired that at least they should not kill men, and he suffered them to kill beasts. And then the heart of your forefathers was hardened yet more, and they killed men and beasts likewise. But I do say to you: Kill neither men, nor beasts, nor yet the food which goes into your mouth. For if you eat living food, the same will quicken you, but if you kill your food, the dead food will kill you also. For life comes only from life, and from death comes always death. For everything which kills your foods, kills your bodies also. And everything which kills your bodies kills your souls also. And your bodies become what your foods are, even as your spirits, likewise, become what your thoughts are. Therefore, eat not anything which fire, or frost, or water has destroyed. For burned, frozen and rotted foods will burn, freeze and rot your body also. Be not like the foolish husbandman who sowed in his ground cooked, and frozen, and rotten seeds. And the autumn came, and his fields bore nothing. And great was his distress. But be like that husbandman who sowed in his field living seed, and whose field bore living ears of wheat, paying a hundredfold for the seeds which he planted. For I tell you truly, live only by the fire of life, and prepare not your foods with the fire of death, which kills your foods, your bodies and your souls also."

 

"Master, where is the fire of life?" asked some of them.

 

"In you, in your blood, and in your bodies."

 

"And the fire of death?" asked others.

 

"It is the fire which blazes outside your body, which is hotter than your blood. With that fire of death you cook your foods in your homes and in your fields. I tell you truly, it is the same fire which destroys your foods and your bodies, even as the fire of malice, which ravages your thoughts, ravages your spirits. For your body is that which you eat, and your spirit is that which you think. Eat nothing, therefore, which a stronger fire than the fire of life has killed. Wherefore, prepare and eat all fruits of trees, and all grasses of the fields, and afl milk of beasts good for eating. For all these are fed and ripened by the fire of life; all are the gift of the angels of our Earthly Mother. But eat nothing to which only the fire of death gives savor, for such is of Satan."

 

"How should we cook our daily bread without fire, Master?" asked some with great astonishment.

 

"Let the angels of God prepare your bread. Moisten your wheat, that the angel of water may enter it. Then set it in the air, that the angel of air also may embrace it. And leave it from morning to evening beneath the sun, that the angel of sunshine may descend upon it. And the blessing of the three angels will soon make the germ of life to sprout in your wheat. Then crush your grain, and make thin wafers, as did your forefathers when they departed out of Egypt, the house of bondage. Put them back again beneath the sun from its appearing, and when it is risen to its highest in the heavens, turn them over on the other side that they be embraced there also by the angel of sunshine, and leave them there until the sun be set. For the angels of water, of air, and of sunshine fed and ripened the wheat in the field, and they, likewise, must prepare also your bread. And the same sun which, with the fire of life, made the wheat to grow and ripen, must cook your bread with the same fire. For the fire of the sun gives life to the wheat, to the bread, and to the body. But the fire of death kills the wheat, the bread, and the body. And the living angels of the living God serve only living men. For God is the God of the living, and not the God of the dead.

 

"So eat always from the table of God: the fruits of the trees, the grain and grasses of the field, the milk of beasts, and the honey of bees. For everything beyond these is of Satan, and leads by the way of sins and of diseases unto death. But the foods which you eat from the abundant table of God give strength and youth to your body, and you will never see diseases For the table of God fed Methuselah of old, and I tell you truly, if you live even as he lived, then will the God of the living give you also long life upon the earth as was his.

 

"For I tell you truly, the God of the living is richer than all the rich of the earth, and his abundant table is richer than the richest table of feasting of all the rich upon the earth. Eat, therefore, all your life at the table of our Earthly Mother, and you will never see want. And when you eat at her table, eat all things even as they are found on the table of the Earthly Mother. Cook not, neither mix all things one with another, lest your bowels become as steaming bogs. For I tell you truly, this is abominable in the eyes of the Lord.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I know no one but Krsna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally."

[theist]

.

[theist]

LOB, Sorry the confusion was caused I see by my embolding the wrong line for some reason. Your quote should have looked like this:

 

Yeah, if you're incapable of nuanced thinking and like simplistic, black-and-white depictions of reality, then exclusive Vaishnavism is the path for you. I abhor the horrors that some people commit in their so-called worship of the universal Mother Goddess (in fact, these morons are insulting the Divine Mother more than anything else by offering her meat and other impure items), but as usual, I see that Theist (is he capable of anything else?) and a few others sorely lacking in self-control couldn't resist joining the fray in order to sling some mud at non-Vaishnava followers of Indic methodologies, unsuccessfully of course, because they are the only ones who take themselves seriously. Some ignoramuses not having a clue as to how to invoke the Devi cannot become a valid reason for rejecting Maa-upasana, anymore than the existence of paedophilic ISKCON gurus render Gaudiya Vaishnavism useless. Of course, with those who reckon that the inaccurate term "demigod" is a proper translation of the Sanskrit word Deva, little reasoned argumentation is feasible, thus they can indulge themselves all they want.

 

 

The first sentence was the insult I wanted to address as my post indicates in text. sorry for the confusion.

[sanatan]

Re: Beware of Kali Temples.

 

The boogeyman is everywhere...best to stay far clear of occultism of any kind, eastern or western in origin.

[theist]

 

Re: Beware of Kali Temples.

 

The boogeyman is everywhere...best to stay far clear of occultism of any kind, eastern or western in origin.

 

Good advice actually. Not for fear of the boogeyman but it is very easy to get distracted by occultism and metaphysics. We can see this by the fact the great Vaisnava acaryas show little interest in the dynamics of the astral world etc. prefering to stay fixed on devotional topics.

 

Of course anything can be dovetailed but caution is warranted.

[bija]

I agree, that is the wonderful thing about the bhakti path we are on, its simplicity. The astral plane can be really intense.

 

My friend is from African decent her religion deals with spirits in the astral realm. I respect it but its not for me. She says I have spirits, I say I have Krsna. Since a child I have lived in the astral, auras these days, clairaudience, I even see spirits. Overload really. To be honest its a burden to my soul, and has caused me great difficulty, especially coming from a culture that does not understand. It has taken me years to understand it myself with no support network. My ego is not pure so is difficult, maybe if I was a pure soul things would be easier.

 

By some good fortune I have come across the path of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, so these past desires and impressions are being cleared gradually. And when I get distracted by the astral realm, I take sanctuary in the Goswami's books, pure bhakti. Thank you Krsna! Thanks for the reminder Theist...I need to focus each day on bhakti.

 

I really believe Sri Caitanya when he quotes ' the holy name the holy name, in this age of kali there is no other way'.

[varun_empi]

the worship of mother divine has 7 fold paths, each seeker 'saadhak' is required to be first initiated into a Guru parampara then according to the instructions of guru he has to start his journey from a stage and then gradually progressing to furthur higher stages.

the first stage is

a) vedicaachaar: observing strict rules of vedas,doing sandhya vandan, observing 5 maha yagnaas, doing the timely rites of darsh & Poornmaasa,7 soomasamsthas(soma offers), pitra yagnas(ansestral rites), 16 /18 samskaars(like the secraments of catholics),etc and following strict rules of varna & aashrama etc(untouchability, purity of food). 'Mukti' or salvation is possible but great penance is required.

b) shaivaachaar: next advance stage is 'saivaachaar' which corrosponds to loose rules of verna and aashrama, less stress on vedic rites, and more libral in outlook of untouchability etc. this advance stage has 'saadhak' on elevated lavel of realisation where all humen beings are considered eligible for self realisation through worship of 'shiva' and chanting of his mantra. mukti is possible but path to selvation is primarly dependent on control of senses and karma purity.

 

c) vaishnavaachaar: next stage is corrosponding to furthur higher lavel of self realisation. now for 'saadhak' the observing vedic rites rites is not required, which was essential in earlier stages. Only service to the sweet lord 'Narayana and his incarnations' and chanting of his devine names and mantras are essential. but in tis stage strict rules regarding food habits and daily sex life is essential. this stage signifies that seeker has reached stage where nothing else matters, but remembring lord in each and every aspact of life. but still 'saadhak' is influcnced by matters and subjects of senses. hence if he is not aware of the rules he is destined to down fall. mukti is possible at this stage also. but saadhak has to primarly follow path of abstainism of subjects of senses. though difficult but possible.

 

d) Dakshinaachaar: this higher stage is similar to vaishnavaachaar but now seeker is supposed to worship mother divine in her various forms.

 

e) Vaamachaar: This higher stage is permissible only to those seekers who had attained full control over the flow of bodily desires and are not influenced by subjects of senses. Only in this stage the offering of five Ms are made called the panch Maakaar's:

Madya(wine):signifies the pure joy attained when the 'soma chakra' is evoked.

Maansa(meat of animals except fish):this offering signifies the pure knowledge attained that world is temporary.

Meena(fish): as fish is wondring deep in ocean, so is the meditation of seeker. if this offering is made the progress to furthur higher relms of meditation is possible. but if an amature due to pleasure of taste etc does this offering then it causes curse.

Mudraa(bread and grains):this offering signifies the fruits of saadhna through which the seeker is gooing through.

Maaithuna(copulation): this signifies the meeting of soul with the divine. the act of sex is not the real meaning of term. it has deeper meaning corrosponding to the state of nirvana.if one indulges into these practices without proper guidence it can lead to path of self distruction.

 

f)veeraachaar: corosponding to furthur higher relms

g) Kaulaachaar: the highest stage of self realisation.

 

the last two stages are to be explained only by guru ' the spiritual master' not in public forum like this.

 

hence we can see that worship of Kali does not require Saadhak to do secrifices etc. until he is properly initiated. So practices in Trinidad is mearly an expression of ignorance. the mother does not require these secrifices and offering. this is only for purifying the souls of seekers. it depends upon your stage of realisation to indulge into these practices. higher the stage , quicker is the path of self realisation but risk involved is also high. it depends upon the seeker which type of path he or she is opting . if any seeker is defaulter then we cannot blame the Kali Maa and the religion as whole

[sopatel]

all of this has to do with fear and ignorance on the worshippers part. we have had people in our village offer lambs sacrifice to Devi and Hanumanji during Navratri because some baba told the family that the family was cursed because Mata rani was mad at them. The otherwise vegetarian family resorts to killing a lamb because of sheer ignorance.

 

I shouldn't but when i heard this, i laughed for a good ten minutes. first devi loves all her children equally and second hanumanji is a narayan bhakt and would not condone violence.

 

so the point was...people do things because they fear and are told to do so by fakers but once we know the truth we should not reverse ourselves. My mom tried and tried talking to them but they were stubborn. oh well, our family makes it clear that we don't need the prasad because we don't allow meat in our homes.

 

Jai shri krishna

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Vaisnavas do not worship Devi separate from Krsna or Narayana. They are never separate except in our incomplete realizations. Our realizations are incomplete because we entertain ulterior motives for our personal gain.

 

The materialist wants to enjoy Laxsmi separate from Vishnu so naturally he needs to try to separate them, although it's just a separation in his mind.

 

This was the lesson of Ravana kidnaping Sita to enjoy Her apart from Rama. Of course he only had the illusion of possessing her. In fact he only possessed the illusion of Sita (maya).

 

Vaisnavas worship them together and approach Devi and appeal to Her to please engage them in the Divine service.

 

All cheap definitions of Vaisnavism should be abandoned.

 

 

Again, you're presuming that Devi worshippers are materially motivated, which may be true in some but by no means all cases. Just for your information, Theistji, I spent nearly a decade and a half in Gaudiya Vaishnavism before reverting to a more traditional, generic variation of Vedic dharma, and whether you agree with me or not, the essence of all paths is basically the same, regardless of the varying dynamics and differential methodolodies. Of course, many Vaishnava acharyas would argue otherwise, but it is for this good reason that the personalistic cults are usually labelled as sectarian. This parochial mentality does not invalidate the inherent transformative faculties of the tradition in question, and believe it or not, I still hold Vaishnavism in great regard, even though I no longer buy into the exclusivist claims of some of its adherents. I am pretty sure that you will not see eye to eye with me on this one, but it nevertheless is the truth. And I know enough about the metaphysics that you count yourself as a votary of to know that, as one advances in Bhakti, the emphasis is increasingly on Radharani and Her service, whilst in many respects, Krishna tends to fade in the background. This is the very core of manjari-bhava, or radha-dasyam. I'm sure you are cognizant of this, and if not, this elementary material is easily found in the writings of all prominent Gaudiyas, especially those of the famed Goswamis of Vrindavana.

[theist]

 

[...]And I know enough about the metaphysics that you count yourself as a votary of to know that, as one advances in Bhakti, the emphasis is increasingly on Radharani and Her service, whilst in many respects, Krishna tends to fade in the background. This is the very core of manjari-bhava, or radha-dasyam. I'm sure you are cognizant of this, and if not, this elementary material is easily found in the writings of all prominent Gaudiyas, especially those of the famed Goswamis of Vrindavana.

 

 

 

theist:Vaishnavas worship the Divine Mother. They invoke Her mercy by calling Hare or Hara.

 

They seem to appreciate that simplicity rather what you call the "nuanced" way of offering her blood products, alcohol and cigarettes.

 

I like their approach.

 

 

theist Vaisnavas do not worship Devi separate from Krsna or Narayana. They are never separate except in our incomplete realizations. Our realizations are incomplete because we entertain ulterior motives for our personal gain.

 

The materialist wants to enjoy Laxsmi separate from Vishnu so naturally he needs to try to separate them, although it's just a separation in his mind.

 

This was the lesson of Ravana kidnaping Sita to enjoy Her apart from Rama. Of course he only had the illusion of possessing her. In fact he only possessed the illusion of Sita (maya).

 

Vaisnavas worship them together and approach Devi and appeal to Her to please engage them in the Divine service.

 

All cheap definitions of Vaisnavism should be abandoned.

 

ps thanks for the new word, votary. I never heard it before. It's a cool one. Not there yet but I wish to be.

 

<input name="book" value="Dictionary" type="hidden"><input name="quer" value="votary" type="hidden"><input name="list" value="1,0,0,0;votary=1191892" type="hidden"> votary

1archaic : a sworn adherent

2 a: devotee b: a devoted admirer

3 a: a devout or zealous worshipper b: a staunch believer or advocate

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

Well, Theist, given your dedicated and commendable attachment to Krishna consciousness as taught by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, I would unhesitatingly describe you as a votary of it. Small, and occasionally not so minor, differences of opinion are inevitable in religious discourse. Personally, I tend to emphasise the unity of the multitude of philosophies, and ideally, would like to see the discrepancies between them not downplayed, but relegated to a subordinate, relativistic position when encountering people attempting mystical progress and advancement via other routes. Maybe this is my own quixotic naivete, still I estimate that it is a laudable ideal. However, perhaps I should grow more used to what persists in the real world, and desist from throwing in my twopence worth every time I run into a remark that may strike me as unjust or narrow-minded. Trust me, I am working on it.

 

Regards

[rakesh000]

yes

[theist]

You see LOB, I believe one can very broad minded and accepting of everyone's position and see the relatavistic value in that position but at the same time very precise in defining the heirarchy of those positions held.

 

I abhor the idea that "all paths are equal" when clearly those paths themselves describe different goals. Buddhism for example seeks to eliminate the self as does it's bigger cousin Advaita. This is diamerically opposed to Krishna consciousness. So how can I pretend differently?

 

To acknowledge and clearly understand the differences and at the same time accept everyone's God given right to go their own way while respecting and loving them as fellow spiritsouls is my goal.

 

Krsna consciousness is the lotus flower that sits above the somewhat murky pond of all other conceptions and views of life. However Krsna consciousness itself is extremely broad.

 

I believe in absolute relativity. The material scientist can be as God conscious in his laboratory as a pujari on a temple altar if he sees Krishna in his microscope or telescope along with what ever else he is studying.

 

The Gopis prayed to ( forgot which demigod) to have Krishna as their husband so their approaching that demigod was Krishna conscious.

 

The point is we must have Krishna Himself as the goal. If not the form Krishna then any Vishnu-tattva but it is the soul's innermost need to connect with and love the Supreme Person.

 

This point cannot be watered down or compromised in any way. That would be like the lotus flower sitting on a weak stem that allowed the petals to be dipped back into the pond.

[meenakshiamman]

Why so elite?

 

Why must we have to see Krsna in everything? Is there not a time and place to see other deities as well? Or perhaps some of us are not at the right stage for Krsna worshipping?

Also, exactly what constitutes as a demi-god to the Krsna Consciousness movement?

 

All religions do have an equal thread in that all people are looking for something bigger than themselves. A great surrender of their egos for a greater Spirit or cause.

 

Still, I am becoming weary of this elitist attitude. I have enjoyed my time at an ISKCON temple, but I have heard things that have sent alarm bells off in my head. I've heard Buddhists being called a "cult" and I've also heard Saivites being criticized and supposedly "blown out of the water" by the Krsna Consciousness movement.

This does not exactly set well with me.

[theist]

 

Why so elite?

 

Why must we have to see Krsna in everything? Is there not a time and place to see other deities as well? Or perhaps some of us are not at the right stage for Krsna worshipping?

 

Because Krishna is in everything. Why ignore Krishna? Krishna is within the stone wood and paint that you have constructed your deity with.

 

Only one person is omnipresent and that is Krishna. You other deoties cannot say that.

 

 

Also, exactly what constitutes as a demi-god to the Krsna Consciousness movement?

 

Demi-god is a post and not an eternal designation. You can rise up and become a Brahma for instance. The king of heaven Indra can be fired and replaced by Krishna at anytime. You can also become an Indra. You cannot ever take Krishna's position however.

 

 

 

All religions do have an equal thread in that all people are looking for something bigger than themselves. A great surrender of their egos for a greater Spirit or cause.

 

Many lost people may be looking for the way home but they are still lost. Looking is important but finding is the goal. We have to judge which is best on the basis of what they have found. Only that will help us in our search.

 

Chairman Mao also performed great austerities for his cause.

 

 

Still, I am becoming weary of this elitist attitude. I have enjoyed my time at an ISKCON temple, but I have heard things that have sent alarm bells off in my head. I've heard Buddhists being called a "cult" and I've also heard Saivites being criticized and supposedly "blown out of the water" by the Krsna Consciousness movement.

This does not exactly set well with me.

 

I am not associated with Iskcon so you will have to take that up with them.

You can consider me an elitest if you like. That makes no difference to me.

[Malati dasi]

Theist said: We have to judge which is best on the basis of what they have found. Only that will help us in our search.

 

 

Do you judge the truth of love on an abusive marriage? Why judge truth based on other people's application of "truth"? Where does that put our individual realization, then?

 

Radhe Radhe Radhe

[Ganeshprasad]

 

Why so elite?

 

 

Well what is expected off children at play in school play ground.

 

 

 

Why must we have to see Krsna in everything? Is there not a time and place to see other deities as well? Or perhaps some of us are not at the right stage for Krsna worshipping?

 

That we must, only problem, is not to recognize that he has thousand of names and forms. They say he is infinite but then they want to capture him in their little box.

 

of course we should have time for other deities, if we have affection for them.

 

Srva dharma pari tajya--- we hear this very often yet after the war Lord Krishna advise Pandava to worship Lord Shiva, to atone for the sin of killing in the war, now we hardly hear of this do we.

 

 

Also, exactly what constitutes as a demi-god to the Krsna Consciousness movement?

 

It is very obvious what is implied. In Vedas they are all Devas there is no such thing as half God.

 

In the Bhagavadgita (or in any Hindu scripture), Lord Krishna NEVER uses the term “demigod” ~ the word only appears in misguided (and misleading) translations.

 

As an adjective, deva means “heavenly, divine, or highly excellent”.

 

As a noun, deva means God or Deity (cf. Latin DEVS ) ~ and deva is a common name for Lord Indra.

 

As a plural noun, devA refers to the Gods ~ especially the 33 prime Deities ~ and deva can refer generally to any image of Divinity or Deity.

 

Sanskrit DEVA is exactly cognate with Latin DEUS, which plainly indicates GOD.

 

The prefix DEMI- means HALF, so that DEMI-GOD means HALF-GOD or PARTLY GOD.

 

Why use such a belittling term for ANY Deity? Gods are Gods!

 

Indra is the King of Gods, Agni is the God of Fire, Sarasvati is the Goddess of Knowledge ~ there is NO half-measure about it.

 

And there is only ONE Mahadeva, who is certainly not a “partial” deity!

 

Agni is Fire ~ the perfect conception of Fire ~ and wherever the nature of Fire is present, there is Agnideva ~ the Fire God ~ the Lord of Fire ~ Fire in its essence ~ the very Self of Fire.

 

Terms such as “controller”, “administrator”, or “demigod”, are all rather pathetic titles for such a Deity.

 

And Lord Indra can not adequately be described as the “controller of rain”.

 

There is one Sun, but there are many Days ~ and all are Adityas.

 

One God with many aspects ~ all equally divine ~

By Sarabhanga.

 

 

All religions do have an equal thread in that all people are looking for something bigger than themselves. A great surrender of their egos for a greater Spirit or cause.

 

Yes we must become like swan and the pick the best from what ever source. Vivek, yama and niyam are important, loose that and the ego takes over.

 

 

Still, I am becoming weary of this elitist attitude. I have enjoyed my time at an ISKCON temple, but I have heard things that have sent alarm bells off in my head. I've heard Buddhists being called a "cult" and I've also heard Saivites being criticized and supposedly "blown out of the water" by the Krsna Consciousness movement.

This does not exactly set well with me.

 

Well you are not the only one, a lot of Hindus have been duped, on the strength of wonderful worship and beautiful chanting (a Hindu way of life since time in memorial)little do they know of all the going on and fall in moral standard and general disregard for the Hindu sentiment.

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[theist]

 

Theist said: We have to judge which is best on the basis of what they have found. Only that will help us in our search.

 

 

Do you judge the truth of love on an abusive marriage? Why judge truth based on other people's application of "truth"? Where does that put our individual realization, then?

 

Radhe Radhe Radhe

 

Not on other peoples application of the truth but of the teachings themselves.

 

What I am saying is this. We can judge the value of Buddhism by understanding that in Buddhism one can find a sense of mindfullness and detachment as well as compassion for other living beings. What we cannot find in Buddhism is information on the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Given this how can any student of Vaisnavism talk of Buddhism as being on par with Krsna consciousness?

 

If you yourself don't do this then on what basis have you chosen Vaisnavism over Buddism or worship of Kali? Is Vaisnavism better or not? What do you say?

[meenakshiamman]

 

Because Krishna is in everything. Why ignore Krishna? Krishna is within the stone wood and paint that you have constructed your deity with.

 

Only one person is omnipresent and that is Krishna. You other deoties cannot say that.

 

 

 

Demi-god is a post and not an eternal designation. You can rise up and become a Brahma for instance. The king of heaven Indra can be fired and replaced by Krishna at anytime. You can also become an Indra. You cannot ever take Krishna's position however.

 

Why is Krishna in everything and not other deities?

 

Why is He the only omnipresent deity? What proof is there that other deities cannot?

 

I am being told to take things at face value too often when I ask these questions.

All religions claim that their ultimate deity is omnipresent and blows all other deities out of the water.

What makes them different from you or other Krishna consciousness followers?

[meenakshiamman]

 

Well what is expected off children at play in school play ground.

 

 

 

 

That we must, only problem, is not to recognize that he has thousand of names and forms. They say he is infinite but then they want to capture him in their little box.

 

of course we should have time for other deities, if we have affection for them.

 

Srva dharma pari tajya--- we hear this very often yet after the war Lord Krishna advise Pandava to worship Lord Shiva, to atone for the sin of killing in the war, now we hardly hear of this do we.

 

 

 

It is very obvious what is implied. In Vedas they are all Devas there is no such thing as half God.

 

In the Bhagavadgita (or in any Hindu scripture), Lord Krishna NEVER uses the term “demigod” ~ the word only appears in misguided (and misleading) translations.

 

As an adjective, deva means “heavenly, divine, or highly excellent”.

 

As a noun, deva means God or Deity (cf. Latin DEVS ) ~ and deva is a common name for Lord Indra.

 

As a plural noun, devA refers to the Gods ~ especially the 33 prime Deities ~ and deva can refer generally to any image of Divinity or Deity.

 

Sanskrit DEVA is exactly cognate with Latin DEUS, which plainly indicates GOD.

 

The prefix DEMI- means HALF, so that DEMI-GOD means HALF-GOD or PARTLY GOD.

 

Why use such a belittling term for ANY Deity? Gods are Gods!

 

Indra is the King of Gods, Agni is the God of Fire, Sarasvati is the Goddess of Knowledge ~ there is NO half-measure about it.

 

And there is only ONE Mahadeva, who is certainly not a “partial” deity!

 

Agni is Fire ~ the perfect conception of Fire ~ and wherever the nature of Fire is present, there is Agnideva ~ the Fire God ~ the Lord of Fire ~ Fire in its essence ~ the very Self of Fire.

 

Terms such as “controller”, “administrator”, or “demigod”, are all rather pathetic titles for such a Deity.

 

And Lord Indra can not adequately be described as the “controller of rain”.

 

There is one Sun, but there are many Days ~ and all are Adityas.

 

One God with many aspects ~ all equally divine ~

By Sarabhanga.

 

 

 

Yes we must become like swan and the pick the best from what ever source. Vivek, yama and niyam are important, loose that and the ego takes over.

 

 

 

Well you are not the only one, a lot of Hindus have been duped, on the strength of wonderful worship and beautiful chanting (a Hindu way of life since time in memorial)little do they know of all the going on and fall in moral standard and general disregard for the Hindu sentiment.

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Thank you for your beautifully put post. I think that this is very much in line with my sentiments.