Shri Ram incarnation

[harekrsna20]

Hello Everyone,

forgive me for being so ignorant. But, i heard in one of the His divine grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami prabhupadaji that Shri ram has his own planets. My confusion is that there are 10 incarnations of Lord Vishnu, of which sri ram is one. So are lord krishna and sri ram one? if someone is a devotee of sri ram, after death does he/she go to sri ramji's planet or back to Godhead.

 

also when we say hare krsna mahamantra, does rama mean lord ram or balram?

Thank u

 

hare krsna

[guliaditya]

 

Hello Everyone,

forgive me for being so ignorant. But, i heard in one of the His divine grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami prabhupadaji that Shri ram has his own planets. My confusion is that there are 10 incarnations of Lord Vishnu, of which sri ram is one. So are lord krishna and sri ram one?

 

All incarnations are taken by Lord Narayana/Vishnu only. If He is taking incarnation then how Lord Krishna & Lord Ram can be different?? As per Bhagvatam 22 incarnations are mentioned.Pls read 1st Canto,3rd chapter.

 

quote=harekrsna20]if someone is a devotee of sri ram, after death does he/she go to sri ramji's planet or back to Godhead.

[harekrsna20]

Hello Adityaji,

Thank u for ur reply. I also thought they both are same. I think i will start reading Srimad Bhagvatam soon, I am sure it would answer all my questions.

 

Thank u once again

 

hare krsna

[Beggar]

According to Sri Brahma Samhita although Sri Krsna and Sri Rama are one, Krsna is actually the source of Rama and all the Visnu tattva incarnations. This is what was accepted by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself. Also the rama in the Mahamantra refers to Radha ramana, the pleasure potency of Krsna.

[Amlesh]

The planet of Sri Ram is known as Saraketu...

Its true the Lord takes different forms but is one and the same.

Its the Bhakta's attachment to the particular form that will decide his planet.

But if someone sees difference between Ram and Krishna, he's still in ignorance.

[Dark Warrior]

 

According to Sri Brahma Samhita although Sri Krsna and Sri Rama are one, Krsna is actually the source of Rama and all the Visnu tattva incarnations. This is what was accepted by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself. Also the rama in the Mahamantra refers to Radha ramana, the pleasure potency of Krsna.

 

Well, that's the Gaudiya viewpoint.

 

This viewpoint is based on the Srimad Bhagavatam pramana which says 'Krishnas tu Bhagavan Svayam'. But Sri Vaishnavas take a different approach. It simply means, 'Krishna is verily Bhagavan Himself'. The Vedas say that Narayana/Vishnu is highest. So, it means, 'Krishna is verily that Narayana/Vishnu Himself' and not 'Krishna is superior to Narayana'.

 

Krishna is an avatar, but He is nondifferent from Narayana. According to Sri Vaishnava tradition, all avatars proceed from Aniruddha, the avatar of Vishnu who induces Brahma to create. In the case of Krishna and Rama though, Narayana from Vaikuntha Himself descended, rather than Aniruddha. Note that Vishnu, although nondifferent from Narayana of Vaikuntha Loka, is also a functional avatar of Narayana. The Karana Ocean is not Vaikuntha, which Gaudiyas fail to notice.

 

Vaikuntha and Goloka are both the same place. Srila Prabhupada wanted to see Radha and Krishna with the gopis in Goloka, and He probably got that in Vaikuntha. If you want to see Rama, you will see Him in vaikuntha. If you want to see Narayana with 4 hands, you will get that. No such thing as Goloka being higher than Vaikuntha.

 

So, Sri vaishnavas and Gaudiya Vaishnavas really have no argument here. We both accept that Krishna is highest and that Vishnu is the avatar of Krishna, ie, Sriman Narayana. What some people do not understand is that Vishnu is the avatar of Narayana, and both are 4 handed. Narayana descended as Krishna and simply hid two of His hands. That's all.

 

And I am sure no Gaudiya Vaishnava Acharya ever said that Vishnu is inferior to Narayana.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

For above, vishu and krsna r same, so does it matter to say who is the sourse of who?!

[Beggar]

 

For above, vishu and krsna r same, so does it matter to say who is the sourse of who?!

They are the same in tattva-vicara but different in rasa-vicara.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Of cource. To above.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Of cource, to above.

[bija]

Hi Darkwarrior,

 

All glories to Vaikuntha Dhaam!

 

Thx for your post its really helpful. I am not so well versed in scripture. At the moment am reading Sri Brhad Bhagavatamrta by Sanatana Goswami-click, one third of the way through the last section now. The book deals alot with rasa and the unique moods of each devotee. One thing that stands out for me in this book is the way Sanatana Goswami describes his inner feelings. His writings are saturated with utmost respect for Vaisnavism. Its really refreshing for me to study these moods and ways, these inner feelings of the advanced devotee within my mind.

 

So your post is also refreshing and very helpful for my studies of Vaisnavism. Reading about the diversity of Vaikuntha is wonderful and to relish each devotees inner feelings is so essential for entrance into this realm I am thinking.

 

y.s.

[Amlesh]

 

They are the same in tattva-vicara but different in rasa-vicara.

 

Ram, Krishna, Vishnu... are eternally ever existing.

How can one be the source of the other.

According to Bhagvatam, all the forms are equally auspicious.

It's the Bhakta's serving preference towards a particular rasa which will determine his Lord.

[Dark Warrior]

 

They are the same in tattva-vicara but different in rasa-vicara.

 

This is again a misconception. In Melkote, South India, there is a temple in which Lord Vishnu is known as 'Pinbazhagia Perumal', which is tamil for 'Lord with the beautiful backside'. He acquired this strange name because every day, the temple preists take off His dhoti and expose His beautiful backside to the devotees. The preists then tell us, 'Look, our beautiful Lord has such a beautiful backside. Admire it and fall in love with Him'.

 

I am sure that even Gaudiya Vaishnavas are not aware of this much love exhibited by simple Vaishnavas. And the Lord with the Beautiful Backside is indeed Vishnu. Thus, Vishnu is as much personal as Krishna.

 

Lord Vishnu, with 4 hands, is as accessible and as delightful as Krishna. For instance, Thirumangai alvar, one of the 12 great alvars, had darshan of Vishnu with 8 hands. In the prabandha, he tells us how Vishnu hugged Him with all 8 hands and pinched his ribs as though alvar was a gopi!! And there is more:

 

Alvar recounts how he was reluctant to let the Lord near him, because he was cross with Vishnu for not appearing before itself. Then, he starts to feel sorry for the Lord (whose face clouds with sorrow when the alvar refuses him entry into his house) and calls Him in.

 

Alvar then asks Vishnu, 'What do you want'. And the Supreme Lord, who has the entire universe as His body, and everyone as His eternal servants, replies, 'I want to reside on your lotus feet as a toenail for ever!!'. And the Lord became the alvar's devotee!!

 

This charitram, with so much of love and closeness, is with Vishnu, not Krishna. And it is equal with the rasa lila in every respect, for even Krishna never said He wanted to become the feet of the Gopis!! But Vishnu, who is considered to be less personal form of the Lord than Krishna, so proud and yet so humble, full of love for His devotee, wanted to be His own servant's toenail.

 

Vishnu is Krishna who is Narayana. There is no difference between the type of Rasa you experience, or the powers the manifest, or the source.

[Beggar]

Srila Bhaktiraksaka Sridar-dev Goswami Maharaj,

 

In the planets known as Vaikuntha, the nature of worship of Lord Visnu is gorgeous, majestic, reverential, and awe-inspiring. But above that, the highest conception of Godhead is just like a human form and nature. It is stated in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta in the teachings to Sanatana Goswami:

 

krsnera yateka khela sarvottama nara-lila

nara-vapu tahara svarupa

gopa-vesa venukara nava-kisora natavara

nara-lila haya anurupa

krsnera madhura-rupa suna sanatana

ye rupera eka kana dubaya saba tribhuvana

sarva-prani kare akarsana

 

"The most supreme form of Godhead is Krsna, who plays in His eternal divine pastimes just like a human being. An ever youthful cowherd boy of Vrndavana, He enacts His pastimes, always playing His flute. His beauty is so charming and sweet, that the whole universe is flooded by an atom of it, and all beings are drawn irresistibly to Him."

"He is approachable by all. We can find God nearest of all - in a human feature. It has been explained how Krsna's nature of human feature is the highest nature of the Absolute, according to the calculation of ecstasy (rasa), which is the common standard of measurement of the whole scope of the Infinite. By the development of santa-, dasya-, sakhya-, vatsalya-, and madhura-rasa, and then parakiya (peacefulness, servitude, friendship, parenthood, and consorthood, and then paramour relationship), this is scientifically proved, without whimsical or blind faith. If we follow the line of Rupanuga-bhajana (devotion following the standard of Srila Rupa Goswami) which originates from Sri Caitanyadeva, the scientific basis can be appreciated.

[Dark Warrior]

Vishnu has never been thought of as 'awe inspiring' or 'majestic' by Sri or Madhva Vaishnavas. We even refer to Him as a 'lovable rascal'. For instance, how He created Brahma and then left him to blindly search the lotus stem for eons. So typical of the Lord's wicked sense of humor.

 

I have provided you examples of how the 4 handed form of Vishnu is conceived by Vaishnavas. The Lord of Melkote, and the Lord of the alvars was as personal and accessible as Krishna. 2 or 4 Hands do not make a difference.

 

Sri Rupa Goswami, who outlined some aspects of Krishna, is certainly a great acharya and devotee. But Vaishnavism is based on anubhavam or personal experience. To the Gaudiya Vaishnava Acharyas, Krishna appears the most alluring. So, naturally, they do not find other forms attractive. To some alvars, their own antaryami (indwelling Lord) was more appealing than Rama or Krishna!!

 

Sri Parasara Bhattar was more in love with Lord Ranganatha of Srirangam. So much so, He refused to go to Vaikuntha unless He had darshan of the Lord of Srirangam there also!!

 

In fact, Perialvar sang lullabys to Trivikrama, 'Oh, my dear baby, how you rose and conquered the word, my sweet Trivikrama...'. Imagine the height of devotion, considering the awesome and majestic Trivikrama as a baby and singing Him to sleep.

 

In Vaikuntha, you get what you want. Sri Vaishnavas love 6 different forms of the Lord: Hayagriva, Rama, Krishna, Varaha, Narasimha and Trivikrama. All of them are personal and when you reach paramapada, you will get a darshan of even the archa form of the Lord if you want.

 

EDIT: Actually, make it 7 different forms of the Lord, adored by Vaishnavas. Besides Rama, Krishna, Hayagriva, Trivikrama, Varaha and Narasimha, we also love Vishnu in His original form (Ranganatha, Padmanabha, Srinivasa, etc.)

[Beggar]

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

 

...If you have knowledge that Krsna is the Supreme Lord, Vraja prema can never come - never, never, and never. It would be very absurd to think that both are simultaneously possible.

Although it is possible for Krsna, the conceptions of aisvarya and madhurya cannot exist simultaneously for devotees. When Krsna showed Arjuna His universal form on the battlefield during the Mahabharata war, Arjuna became perplexed and began to pray with folded hands, " I have made many mistakes. I have done wrong. I have called You 'sakha,' friend, and You are also personally driving my chariot. Prabhu, excuse me for this. Now I know that You are the creator of this universe. You are the Supreme Lord." Arjuna now forgot his friendship with Krsna, and he repented his previous actions and mentality. On the other hand, when Mother Yasoda saw the universal form in Krsna's mouth, she was puzzled and thought, "Why is my boy like this? A ghost may have come." Overwhelmed by vatsalya-prema, she called for the brahmanas and also for Nanda Baba. The brahmanas told her, "We will quickly purify Him." Then, after fetching black cows for a yajna, the brahmanas procured urine and cow dung, mixed them together, and applied it on the body of Krsna.

Yasoda Ma never thought that Krsna is the Supreme Lord. In fact, if anyone would say that He was, she would not take it seriously; she would take it as a joke. No Vrajavasi will ever believe that Krsna is the Supreme. Prema cannot manifest unless one has a relationship with Krsna with the realization that "Krsna is my most beloved" or that "He is my son." Vraja-prema can never come if one thinks, "My son is the Supreme Lord." If you want to have Vraja-prema one day, then, like the Vrajavasis, you will have to forget that Krsna is the Supreme Lord. The Mathuravasis can say that He is the Supreme Lord because they saw His four-handed form, but the Vrajavasis can never say that.

[Beggar]

 

Vishnu has never been thought of as 'awe inspiring' or 'majestic' by Sri or Madhva Vaishnavas. We even refer to Him as a 'lovable rascal'. For instance, how He created Brahma and then left him to blindly search the lotus stem for eons. So typical of the Lord's wicked sense of humor.

 

I have provided you examples of how the 4 handed form of Vishnu is conceived by Vaishnavas. The Lord of Melkote, and the Lord of the alvars was as personal and accessible as Krishna. 2 or 4 Hands do not make a difference.

 

Sri Rupa Goswami, who outlined some aspects of Krishna, is certainly a great acharya and devotee. But Vaishnavism is based on anubhavam or personal experience. To the Gaudiya Vaishnava Acharyas, Krishna appears the most alluring. So, naturally, they do not find other forms attractive.

 

Not to worry Dark Warrior I believe what you are saying is true. I was just further illustrating the Gaudiya Vaisnava position through these quotes.