cbrahma Posted April 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 It just semantics. Normal, is worldly, and all the attachment that comes from that. It is an artificial world built by the mind for the mind. Normal, is your natural spiritual state, that has become buried under all the worldy things you have attached to yourself. Religion attempts to give you rebirth by cesarean section. With no religion, your rebirth is natural. x right;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Hey c, If you have hanged out at a place and found it stinks...why still hang around and breathe the foul air? If you are not careful the stinkies will enter your subtle body and stinkers will be everywhere...wherever you go? The stink will linger and premeate you. I dont mean to be sarcastic...I care. I really do. I am just trying to use language you might understand. Many of us humans share similar experiences, and some of us decide to be mature and not act like spoilt children. Such is life and the ways of this world. If you cultivate so much negativity in your words and actions your subtle body will hold it....and stinkies will be everywhere. You will see everyone else as a stinkie too. And believe me mate that would be delusion. There are many beautiful things, and yes many beautiful devotees too. I hope out of bitterness you are not trying to destroy simple peoples faith. Thats a stinker that lingers. Go find some fresh air, real spiritual life. Feel nature, feel joy, feel love....forget about your bad rap and Iskcon...thats only gonna make you miserable. Why breathe in the stinkies....move on breathe fresh air...before its too late and your subtle body stinks. I have walked that walk mate....and it will make you miserable in the end. It really will. In life we gotta move on. And not let bitterness or negative experiences rule our way. If you are still attached to the Holy Name, just chant it and forget about the rest that has disturbed you. I really care....even if I dont know you. Try the fresh air...find a beautiful person and fall in love and seek God. No stinkies there. y.s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 All this picture you have painted of Iskcon, rules, restrictions etc etc....is just a smoke screen. Beneath that smoke is a hurting soul. As humans we need to find a way to heal that pain. But as humans we generally make smoke screens. And point the finger. Some of us even make religion our smoke screen to point the finger. Its a joke really, we lie and kid ourselves and think no one sees us, but we all can see through the smoke screen. But we prefer to hide. How to heal that pain? Love is the only answer. To love another deeply. To move beyond selfishness and denial. Think about what I am saying mate before you reject it as another stinker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Life is full of stinkers. Today I received the news that my parents, who are 63 and 65 respectively, are separating now that their elderly pensions are coming in. My mother can support herself that way. Gotta get real in life to find love. Smokescreens and pointing the finger is just a bunch of nonsense really. Love is the only treasure in this world. And to find it we need to be real, humble, gentle....and find a depth within to be selfless. Krsna consciousness is a beautiful path...a path of love. Where Krsna is everything....the devotee surrenders oneself to Him. And Krsna is everything because he is everything. And once we fall in love with everything we have peace of mind. That surrender is the path of liberation. Free from self seeking, not masochistic as you suggest cbrahma....its real....its love...its perfection. The destiny of every soul....pure selfless love seeking to satisfy the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted April 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 All this picture you have painted of Iskcon, rules, restrictions etc etc....is just a smoke screen. Beneath that smoke is a hurting soul. As humans we need to find a way to heal that pain. But as humans we generally make smoke screens. And point the finger. Some of us even make religion our smoke screen to point the finger. Its a joke really, we lie and kid ourselves and think no one sees us, but we all can see through the smoke screen. But we prefer to hide. How to heal that pain? Love is the only answer. To love another deeply. To move beyond selfishness and denial. Think about what I am saying mate before you reject it as another stinker. It's not just ISKCON. There are many proselytizers from many groups. Like I said its a supermarket of gurus and dharmas. I'm not stewing. I'm just making objective analysis of how the 'process' is blocked by so many factors that complicate it to the point of impracticabilty. It explains why there is so much cheating. I don't need a smoke screen, since I'm not pretending to follow this monstrously complex 'qualifiying' process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 I'm just making objective analysis of how the 'process' is blocked by so many factors that complicate it to the point of impracticabilty. by cbrahma Malati Mataji gave good advice earlier. A practical way to practice Krsna consciousness. My life is similar in some ways to what she expressed, but different at the same time. I was never a member of Iskcon, and hardly hanged out there. I dont live near devotees either. But have found a way that is uncomplicated and satisfying to my soul. Gurudeva often says to me 'the slow and steady win the race'. Gurudeva and myself talked a few weeks back, I was wrestling with some things within, and he gave me freedom to discover life, not an impractical task master. Like a good father who trusts my intelligence, and faith in the Holy Name. Empowering for me actually. Freedom is empowering, and guides a mature child on a good path, to make good decisions. There is no restriction in this way. I think this is the way God intends his manifestation to be. Religion that is only moral and rule based even creates neurosis in people, or fanatacism....or even terroism or intolerance! False!!! I actually understand the things you are expressing, and you are correct in many ways. But to be honest with you I feel the greatest source of complexity is often our own complexity. And in groups we can get a thing called 'group think'. So irrational behaviours can manifest. Hence the need to use good intelligence and sought out the chaff from the wheat as you might say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted April 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 I'm just making objective analysis of how the 'process' is blocked by so many factors that complicate it to the point of impracticabilty. by cbrahma Malati Mataji gave good advice earlier. A practical way to practice Krsna consciousness. My life is similar in some ways to what she expressed, but different at the same time. I was never a member of Iskcon, and hardly hanged out there. I dont live near devotees either. But have found a way that is uncomplicated and satisfying to my soul. Gurudeva often says to me 'the slow and steady win the race'. Gurudeva and myself talked a few weeks back, I was wrestling with some things within, and he gave me freedom to discover life, not an impractical task master. Like a good father who trusts my intelligence, and faith in the Holy Name. Empowering for me actually. Freedom is empowering, and guides a mature child on a good path, to make good decisions. There is no restriction in this way. I think this is the way God intends his manifestation to be. Religion that is only moral and rule based even creates neurosis in people, or fanatacism....or even terroism or intolerance! False!!! I actually understand the things you are expressing, and you are correct in many ways. But to be honest with you I feel the greatest source of complexity is often our own complexity. And in groups we can get a thing called 'group think'. So irrational behaviours can manifest. Hence the need to use good intelligence and sought out the chaff from the wheat as you might say. I suspect you have the same guru as (shudder) Beggar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 I do not. I dont think anyone on this forum has diksha from Gurudeva. Guru is a personal matter anyhow. A matter of relationship. Not a thing to drag through the mud. Why would you do that to someone you love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted April 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 I do not. I dont think anyone on this forum has diksha from Gurudeva. Guru is a personal matter anyhow. A matter of relationship. Who is he? Narayana Maharaj? Sridara Maharaj? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Just try to feel others cbrahma...feel their words and their heart. Not everything is a stinkie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 7.23 mahaudarya-lilamaya sri-caitanya-caranatma-niksepasya paramatvam - patrapatra-vicaranam na kurute na svam param viksate deyadeya-vimarsako na hi na va kala-pratiksah prabhuh sadyo yah sravaneksana-pranamana-dhyanadina durllabham datte bhakti-rasam sa eva bhagavan gaurah param me gatih <table width="95%"> <!-- Table 211 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td>Sri Prabodhanandapadanam</td> </tr> </tbody></table> The dignity of casting oneself unto the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Hero in the divine pastimes of supreme magnanimity - "He makes no distinction between the worthy and the unworthy, and He does not differentiate between Himself and others; He does not consider who should be given to and who should not, and He makes no preparation for an auspicious or inauspicious moment; and He swiftly awards the rarest nectar of pure devotion beginning with hearing about the Lord, beholding Him, making obeisance unto Him, and absorbing one's thoughts in Him - that Supreme Lord Gaurahari is my one and only shelter." <table width="95%"> <!-- Table 212 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td>Sri Prabodhananda Saraswati</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <center>iti sri-prapanna-jivanamrte sri-bhakta-vacanamrtantargata atma-niksepo nama saptamo 'dhyayah thus ends the seventh chapter Full Self-surrender - Words of Nectar from the Devotees in Life-Nectar of the Surrendered Souls </center>Positive and Progressive Immortality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Nityananda Gauranga Naam Cintamani kali yuga mein sadhu sanga, ho gaya dushita, dharmadhvaji prabalya, sanga nahi ucita.(41) kali yuga mein sadhu sanga, ho gaya dushita, dharmadhvaji prabalya, sanga nahi ucita.(41) "In Kali Yuga even the most crucial limb of devotional service which is sadhu sanga i.e. association with devotees, has become contaminated, diluted and unfavourable due to the widespread presence of hypocritical and deceitful people in the garb of devotees." nitai gauranga nama, sadhu guru vaishnava, kali yuga mein saba kucha nama hi bandhava.(42) nitai gauranga nama, sadhu guru vaishnava, kali yuga mein saba kucha nama hi bandhava.(42) "So is there no hope in Kali Yuga because of the very rare availability of proper association of devotees? Yes surely there is hope, because the most magnanimous offenseless Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga are always accessible to one and all and have become the spiritual masters, intimate friends, well-wishers, pure devotees and exclusive shelters of the offensive fallen conditioned souls." nitai gauranga nama, haya mukhya patha, aparadha vimukta jiva paya prema dhana.(43) nitai gauranga nama, haya mukhya patha, aparadha vimukta jiva paya prema dhana.(43) "The most principal means to achieve the supreme treasure of pure love of Krishna for the souls of Kali Yuga, is the chanting of the Holy Names of Nityananda, Gauranga and Hare Krishna, which can be performed offenselessly by even the most offensive and degraded souls " nitai gauranga nama cintamani chinmaya, jo gauranga vo hi nama anadi advaya.(44) nitai gauranga nama cintamani chinmaya, jo gauranga vo hi nama anadi advaya.(44) "The transcendental wish-fulfilling touchstones, the Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga, are supremely conscious, alive and cognizant. The eternal and non-dual Absolute Truth of Gauranga's Holy Name is none other than Lord Gauranga Himself." chaitanya vigraha nama nitya mukta tattva, nama nami bhinna nahi nitya shuddha sattva.(45) chaitanya vigraha nama nitya mukta tattva, nama nami bhinna nahi nitya suddha sattva.(45) "The Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga are the supreme sentient personifications of the spiritual truth and are eternally liberated and situated in pure goodness, untainted by material contamination. Thus These Holy Names and Their Lordships Shri Shri Nityananda Gauranga Themselves are totally non-different from each other." gaura nama akarshaye sarva vishvagata jana, vo hi nitya dharmagata sarvopari dhana.(46) gaura nama akarshaye sarva visvagata jana, vo hi nitya dharmagata sarvopari dhana.(46) "The Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga attract all the living entities in the universe because They are the only true eternal and topmost religion, yoga and treasure in creation." nityananda gauranga nama sarvopari, aparadha vinasha haya, atishaya bhari.(47) nityananda gauranga nama sarvopari, aparadha vinasha haya, atishaya bhari.(47) "The Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga are the topmost Holy Names in creation in the past, present and future because the most heinous, irrevocable and unforgivable offenses and sins are destroyed from the root by chanting These Holy Names." artha dhana moksha kami ko kare pradana, shuddha bhakta ko gaura nama prema dana.(48) artha dhana moksha kami ko kare pradana, suddha bhakta ko gaura nama prema dana.(48) "The Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga award the fruits of religiosity, wealth, sense-gratification and liberation to the materially motivated fruitive chanters. Whereas They reward the unalloyed pure devotees with pure love for Lord Krishna, the ultimate goal of all endeavours." gaura vastu haya cara dharma paricita, nama rupa guna lila anadi vihita.(49) gaura vastu haya cara dharma paricita, nama rupa guna lila anadi vihita.(49) "The Supreme Absolute Truth Lord Gauranga is characterised by four eternal identifications. They are the Holy Name, the Holy Form, the Holy Qualities and the Divine Pastimes which reveal the Lord to His devotees." sandhini shakti se caro ka paricaya, nitya siddha rupa me nama hai chinmaya.(50) sandhini shakti se caro ka paricaya, nitya siddha rupa me nama hai chinmaya.(50) "The Holy Name, Form, Qualities and Pastimes are direct manifestations of the eternal sandhini spiritual potency of Lord Gauranga Krishna. Thus They are eternally perfect and They manifest from the transcendental Holy Name of the Lord which is the beginning of all realization." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Srila Sridhar Maharaj would spontaneously chant after a few sentences of speaking Hari katha. He would suddenly spontaneously chant, "nitai gaura hari bol", "nitai gaura hari bol", "nitai gaura hari bol" then "dayal nita", "dayal nita", "dayal nita" and then "Mahaprabhu Gauranga Sundar", "Mahaprabhu Gauranga Sundar", "Mahaprabhu Gauarnga Sundar", then the Mahamantra. Sometimes the orders of the mantras would change as would their numbers. Sometime he would just say over and over "Caitanya Nitai." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Yes Beggar Prabhu...what a great soul he was. I wish I had met him. Reading his Gita translation changed my life and vision. I could not see before reading that book. Click here for his Gita. So many problems arise if devotees do not understand the importance of Gaura Tattva and its essentiality. And the need for the offensive chanter to take shelter there. There is no chance of understanding or tasting love for Krsna if this is neglected. This thread is a perfect example of that. In my humble opinion it should be the first thing taught to newcomers. That would be merciful. Thank God for Srila Sridhara Maharaja and the way he chanted. He taught well by the example you have just shared with us. Sri Navadwipa Dham Mahatmya by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura tabu krishna-prema saadhaarane naahi paaya ihaara kaarana kiba chintaha hiyaaya..47 "Even though Lord Krishna's glories and pastimes are known so openly and widely in this world, pure love for Lord Krishna, which is goal of all human endeavors, remains allusive and unobtainable to the general mass of the people." ihaate aache ta eka gudha-tattva saara maayaa-mugdha jiva taahaa naa kare vichaara..48 "This mystery of the greatest question and dilemma in the human form of life is not thought about by the souls bewildered by Maya, the illusory energy of the Lord. bahu janma krishna bhaji prema naahi haya aparaadha-punja taara aachaya nischaya..49 "If one does not achieve pure love of God after worshiping Lord Krishna and chanting His Holy Names for many lives, one should understand that one has certainly mountains of offenses in one's heart." aparaadha-shunya haye laya krishna-naama tabe jiva krishna-prema labhe aviraama..50 "If and only if one chants the Holy Names of Lord Krishna by becoming totally devoid of all offenses against the Holy Names. Deity and Abodes, then that soul will be able to attain the pure love for Lord Krishna without any interruption." shri chaitanya avatare bada vilakshana aparaadha-sattve jiva labhe prema-dhana..51 "The incarnation of Lord Gauranga is exceptionally opulent, powerful and influential among all forms of God. Even though Lord Krishna's Name considers offenses and does not give love to an offensive soul, Lord Gauranga's Name, Pastimes and Abodes do not consider offenses and award pure love of God to even the offensive souls. This unprecedented and unimaginable munificence of Lord Gauranga's incarnation is the only life-saving hope for the conditioned souls of Kali Yuga." nitaai chaitanya bali jei jiva daake suvimala krishna-prema anveshaya taake..52 "The most esoteric and purest love of Lord Krishna begins searching after that most auspicious soul who feelingly calls out the most benevolent Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga." aparaadha baadhaa tara kichu naahi kare niramala krishna-preme taara ankhi jhare..53 "Even the formidable obstacles posed due to the offenses in one's heart are rendered ineffective by the Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga and the eyes miraculously flow with the sublime tears of pristinely pure love for Lord Krishna when one chants the Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga even though offenses are present in the heart." svalpa kaale aparaadha aapani palaaya hridaya shodhita haya prema baadhe taaya..54 "After granting the most confidential pure love for Lord Krishna to even the offensive chanter, the Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga make the offenses run away from the heart within a very short time. Then the heart becomes fully purified and the love increases even more." kali-jivera aparaadha asankhya durvaara gaura-naama vinaa taara naahika uddhaara..55 "The offenses and sins of the souls of Kali Yuga are unlimited and absolutely impossible to overcome. Thus, there is no other means of deliverance in Kali Yuga other than the exceptionally merciful Holy Name of Lord Gauranga." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Maybe Krishna constructed Vaisnavism in such a way that eventually there are so many hoops to jump through that the person gets frustrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Maybe Krishna constructed Vaisnavism in such a way that eventually there are so many hoops to jump through that the person gets frustrated. quote by ancientmariner maybe I liked the other day when you said you like Krsna from reading the Bhagavatam. Maybe ancient we do get frustrated in this world at some point and then search for the essence. After years of frustration if we get a taste of that essence, we may be quite hungry for love by that stage. Maybe then the illusory world is seen for what it is...a servant of Sri Krsna. Most things in this world are temporary anyhow, even religious structures. But they do serve a purpose, to help us see what actually is. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Eighth chapter Surrender in Humility - Words of Nectar from the Devotees in Life-Nectar of the Surrendered Souls Positive and Progressive Immortality 8.7 purusottama-seva-prarthino bhaktasya nija-lajjakarayogyata-nivedanam - mat-tulyo nasti papatma, naparadhi ca kascana parihare 'pi lajja me, kim bruve purusottama <table width="95%"> <!-- Table 14 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td>kasyacit</td> </tr> </tbody></table> The regretful submission of incompetence by the devotee who aspires for the service of the Supreme Person - "There is no parallel to my sinful, criminal life. Everything that can be conceived of as bad is found in me. O Supreme Lord, I am even ashamed to come before You to petition, 'please forgive my offenses.' What more can I say than this?" <table width="95%"> <!-- Table 15 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td>- votary</td> </tr> </tbody></table> 8.8 mangalamaya-bhagavan-namabhase papinam atma-dhikkarah - kva caham kitavah papo, brahma-ghno nirapatrapah kva ca narayanety etad, bhagavan-nama mangalam <table width="95%"> <!-- Table 16 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td>Ajamilasya</td> </tr> </tbody></table> The sinful revile themselves when they are exposed to a mere facsimile of the all-auspicious holy name of the Lord (namabhasa) - "Who am I? A cheater, a sinner, a defiler of my brahminical status, a shameless wretch. What is my position in comparison to this holy name of the Lord, 'Narayana,' the embodiment of all auspiciousness?" <table width="95%"> <!-- Table 17 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td>Ajamila</td> </tr> </tbody></table> 8.9 sri-bhagavat-krpodaye brahma-bandhunam daridryam api na badhakam - kvaham daridrah papiyan, kva krsnah sri-niketanah brahma-bandhur iti smaham, bahubhyam parirambhitah <table width="95%"> <!-- Table 18 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td>Sri Sudamnah</td> </tr> </tbody></table> The Lord's mercy does not consider the disqualification of even a fallen brahmana - "I am the most sinful and destitute, so who am I compared to Krsna, the shelter of the Goddess of Fortune? He knew I was the unqualified son of a brahmana, but nonetheless He embraced me. Indeed, this is most astonishing." <table width="95%"> <!-- Table 19 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td>Sri Sudama</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 I do not. I dont think anyone on this forum has diksha from Gurudeva. Guru is a personal matter anyhow. A matter of relationship. Not a thing to drag through the mud. Why would you do that to someone you love. Wise man. Hides his guru to protect his name and one's own heart from the barbs of the naysayers. I know though but I won't tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Maybe Krishna constructed Vaisnavism in such a way that eventually there are so many hoops to jump through that the person gets frustrated. I wouldn't say 'Vaisnavism" but this is how religion works. It must be seen from two angles to be appreciated. From one angle all those rules and regulations and rules of ritual force one to concentrate on doing things correctly and while you are attempting to follow strictly dottin the i's and crossing the t's you are not using the mind to chase after sense gratification and one moves more into the mode of goodness. Then as one progresses we start to realize the futility of trying to approach God in such structured and ritualistic way and the focus comes more strongly to the simple things of the heart, approaching the Lord in humility and prayer. That is the second angle. The religion was indespensible at first but as one develops a genuine attachment for Krsna consciousness he naturall can despense with religion as an emphasis. The danger is one may artifically despense with rules and rituals before he is ready and eventually just fall down or worse yet become a self deluded sahajiya. Another mistake to avoid is to teach others that all the religious do's and do nots are meaningless and can be skipped. IOW's religion is meant to be a stepping stone to transcendence. Once you reach the roof one no longer needs the ladder but it you toss out the ladder before making full use of it you may never reach the roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 I know though but I won't tell.theist lol anyhow...I am an internet persona so people can find me easy enough, really though I would not bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted April 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Just try to feel others cbrahma...feel their words and their heart. Not everything is a stinkie. I do! I do! (which is why I have people like Beggar on my ignore list) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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