Lord Jesus Christ - Abandon all varieties of religion

[raghu]

 

I think there's intolerance from both sides. Whilst iskconite intolerance is similar to christianity, hindu intolerance is somewhat peculiar, in that Hindus cannot tolerate anyone who doesn't share their view that all paths are valid etc. This also is intolerance, though not half as dangerous as the iskconite variety. It's more an annoying habit of the hindus to attack anyone who refuses to believe that all paths are valid.

 

I am a "Hindu" but I do not believe that all paths are "valid." There are other "Hindus" also who object to this idea of "radical universalism."

 

 

http://www.dharmacentral.com/universalism.htm

[bhaktajan]

I am a very very Pompous Iskcon Hare Krishna Devotee.

 

I know what is written in the Gita.

I know what happens to jivas in the material world.

I know Jesus was doing the Boddhisattva gig.

I know that AC Bhaktivedanta Swami is jagat-guru.

I know the purpose of the Archa-vigraha.

I know how to manage my own Karma.

I know the names of those who have fallen.

I know those who degrade ISKCON.

I also know the path that humanity has taken for the past 10,000 years.

I also know the varigated suffering that society goes through.

 

Maybe, the faults that are spoken of above are being posted by those who can not know personally the above listed items, so they spend time digressing from enlightening anyone.

 

We should consider the following proceeding list when we consider how ISKCON supposedly failed to produce Maha-bhagavatas:

 

God used the following, to ruin the utopia that we all deserved during our life-time(s)--and so many people suffered as a result:

 

The Egyptians,

The Greeks,

The Romans,

The Visigoths,

The Holy-Roman Empire,

The Moslems,

The Empirial European Expansions,

The British Empire,

The American Revolutionary War,

The Japanese Empire,

The American Civil War,

The Marxist Revolution,

The Child labor Laws,

The Women Suffragettes,

The Abolitionists,

The WWI Dough-Boys,

The WWII GI Joes,

The Civil rights Movement,

The A.C.L.U.

Hare Krishna Renunciates who performed degraded acts.

etc. . . .

 

So much work for so many who turn out to be huge disappointments!

 

Let us not minimized and sweep under the rug the works performed by those impure non-devine, ordinary people without very good judgement of human character, and plagued with problems, who cannot even demonstrate any standard of brahminical behavior,even those who are so low that they technically can't qualify as being offensive due to their being so 'unknowing dregs of human society'.

 

Cheers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Beggar]

 

I am a very very Pompous Iskcon Hare Krishna Devotee.

 

 

...I know how to manage my own Karma.

I know the names of those who have fallen.

I know those who degrade ISKCON.

I also know the path that humanity has taken for the past 10,000 years.

I also know the varigated suffering that society goes through...

 

I am the Whistler, and I know many things, for I walk by night. I know many strange tales, hidden in the hearts of men and women who have stepped into the shadows. Yes ... I know the nameless terrors of which they dare not speak...

[Beggar]

Sometimes pure devotees who are ghostianandis, preachers leave this world and sometimes they just enter into the bhajananandi mood. To illustrate this look at this article:

 

Retirement in Puri

 

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura

 

Today we are sitting inside a bhajana-kutir at Sri Purushottam Kshetra. Why are we are living in this faraway place, leaving the great city of Calcutta, which is full of people and learned communities? A long time ago when we published this magazine, sajjana-tosani, I had a desire in my heart. I thought that the more the pure Vaisnava religion is spread through this magazine, the more the people of the world would benefit. We began to work with a free mind. Many educated gosvamis and babajis of Bengal came and pledged to help us. Some learned impersonalists joined us, and being overwhelmed by the beauty of devotional service, they began to help spread pure Vaishnavism. After hearing nice instructions about Vaishnavism, materialists also became attracted. Professional singers and players floated in the waves of hari-kirtan and considered themselves fully satisfied. Gradually many assemblies for the chanting of the holy names of Hari were established in villages and cities. In this way the glories of pure Vaishnavism filled the hearts of the inhabitants of Bengal and overwhelmed everyone with their beauty and sweetness. On seeing such an unexpected response from the people of Bengal, we began to preach pure Vaishnavism with more and more enthusiasm.

Then by the influence of time a sudden change took place. The Glow-worm like superstitions that were hidden in the scorching heat of the sun of Vaishnavism suddenly took various forms and came from four directions. The demoniac religious principle in the form of Mayavada, which was immersed within the deepwater of forgetfulness for some time, again surfaced in the form of discourses, taking shelter in the boat of smarta teachers. At the same time some Indian and foreign yogis appeared as supporters of the smartas and created a revolution in the world of religion. Moreover some useless people, who were fond of sense gratification, took shelter of unauthorized religious practices and became to create a disturbance in society, identifying themselves as Sahajiyas and Bauls. Displaying the limit of their sinful propensity, a few worm-like people, who began to take pleasure in the stool of fame, began to advertise themselves as “the incarnation of the Lord” in the society of fools. Some people even accepted names befitting a Vaishnava, acted as acaryas and began to spread ideas that were opposed to Vaishnavism as if they were the religious principles of vaisnavas.

. After seeing such unimaginable activities our hearts began to shatter. When we tried to search for the cause of such a change we suddenly remember the verse written by Srila Prabhodananda Saraswatipada:

The age of Kali is formidable and the senses of the human beings are very powerful. Now the path of devotional

service is full of many thorns. Where shall I go? What

shall I do? I am completely helpless without the mercy

of Gaurachandra.

While crying and speaking in this way, I went to the birthplace of the Lord at Sri Mayapura. Still my mind did not become peaceful. Thereafter I left my place in search of the Lord, and after arriving at Puri I began to role on the gold-like sand. At that time the Lord informed me in my heart, “O well wisher of the devotees may you attain peace. The nature that the living entities have developed, according to their respective karma from birth after birth, influences them to engage in fruitive activities. Until desires opposed to devotional service are destroyed in the heart no amount of good instruction can bring any auspiciousness. Such instructions will simply come out of the ear-holes and not enter the heart. No amount of preaching to them or discussing devotional service will produce a good result because of their bad karma. Your discourses and discussions will therefore not yield any result. My order to you is that you live at the place where I kept my dear Haridas and where I chanted the holy names of the Lord. You should constantly sing the glories of the holy names for the benefit of the fallen souls. As a result of the piety that people will achieve by hearing from you, and the faith they will develop, they will attain non-duplicitous faith in devotional service in future lifetime.”

Following these instructions of our beloved Lord Sri Krishna Chaitanya, we built our bhajana-kutir in the tract of land surrounded by huge waves. (sajjana-tosani, “The Harmonist” 15.1)

From Touchstone Media and Bindu 142

 

 

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[Beggar]

And there is this classic which should dispel much of the doubt about the contradictions that one sees in any institution:

 

 

 

Organized Religion

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

 

Sri Krishna manifests His eternal birth, the pure cognitive essence of the serving soul who is located above all mundane limitations. King Kamsa [the demon king who wanted to kill Lord Krishna] is the typical empiricist, ever on the lookout for the appearance of the truth for the purpose of suppressing Him before He has time to develop. This is no exaggeration of the real connotation of the consistent empiric position. The materialist has a natural repugnance for the transcendent. He is disposed to link that faith in the incomprehensible is the parent of dogmatism and hypocrisy in the guise of religion. He is also equally under the delusion that there is no real dividing line between the material and the spiritual. He is strengthened in his delusion by the interpretation of scriptures by persons who are like-minded with himself. This includes all the lexicographic interpreters.

The lexicographical interpretation is upheld by Kamsa as the real scientific explanation of the scriptures, and is perfectly in keeping with his dread of and aversion for the transcendental. These lexicographical interpreters are employed by Kamsa in putting down the first suspected appearance of any genuine faith in the transcendental. King Kamsa knows very well that if the faith in the transcendental is once allowed to grow it is sure to upset all his empiric prospects.

There is historical ground for such misgivings. Accordingly if the empiric domination is to be preserved in tact it would be necessary not to lose a moment to put down the transcendental heresy the instant it threatens to make its appearance in earnest. King Kamsa, acting on this traditional fear, is never slow to take the scientific precaution of deputing empiric teachers of the scriptures, backed by the resources of dictionary and grammar and all empiric subtleties to put down, by the show of specious arguments based on hypothetical principles, the true interpretation of the eternal religion revealed by the scriptures.

Kamsa is strongly persuaded that faith in the transcendental can be effectively put down by empiricism if prompt and decisive measures are adopted at the very outset. He attributes the failure of atheism in the past to the neglect of the adoption of such measures before the theistic fallacy has had time to spread among the fanatical masses.

But Kamsa is found to count without his host. When Krishna is born, He is found to be able to upset all sinister designs against those who are apprized by Himself of His advent. The apparently causeless faith displayed by persons irrespective of age, sex and condition may confound all rabid empiricists who are on principle adverse to the Absolute Truth Whose appearance is utterly incompatible with the domination of empiricism.

But no adverse efforts of the empiricists whose rule seems till then to be perfectly well-established over the minds of the deluded souls of this world can dissuade any person from exclusively following the Truth when He actually manifests His birth in the pure cognitive essence of the soul.

Putana [the demoness who tried to kill Krishna] is the slayer of all infants. The baby, when he or she comes out of the mother's womb, falls at once into the hands of the pseudo-teachers of religion. These teachers are successful in forestalling the attempts of the good preceptor whose help is never sought by the atheists of this world at the baptism of their babies. This is ensured by the arrangements of all established churches of the world. They have been successful only in supplying watchful Putanas for effecting the spiritual destruction of persons from the moment of their birth with cooperation of their worldly parents. No human contrivance can prevent these Putanas from obtaining possession of their pulpits. This is due to the general prevalence of atheistic disposition in the people of this world.

The church that has the best chance of survival in this damned world is that of atheism under the convenient guise of theism. The churches have always proved the staunchest upholders of the grossest form of worldliness from which even the worst of non-ecclesiastical criminals are found to recoil.

It is not from any deliberate opposition to the ordained clergy that these observations are made. The original purpose of the established churches of the world may not always be objectionable. But no stable religious arrangement for instructing the masses has yet been successful. The Supreme Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in pursuance of the teachings of the scriptures enjoins all absence of conventionalism for the teachers of the eternal religion. It does not follow that the mechanical adoption of the unconventional life by any person will make him a fit teacher of religion. Regulation is necessary for controlling the inherent worldliness of conditioned souls.

But no mechanical regulation has any value, even for such a purpose. The bona-fide teacher of religion is neither any product of, nor the favourer of, any mechanical system. In his hands no system has likewise the chance of denigrating into a lifeless arrangement. The mere pursuit of fixed doctrines and fixed liturgies cannot hold a person to the true spirit of doctrine or liturgy.

The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale.

Those are, therefore, greatly mistaken who are disposed to look forward to the amelioration of the worldly state in any worldly sense from the worldly success of any really spiritual movement. It is these worldly expectants who become the patrons of the mischievous race of the pseudo-teachers of religion, the Putanas, whose congenial function is to stifle the theistic disposition at the very moment of its suspected appearance. But the theistic disposition can never be stifled by the efforts of those Putanas. The Putanas have power only over the atheist. It is a thankless but salutary task which they perform for the benefit of their unwilling victims.

But as soon as theistic disposition proper makes its appearance in the pure cognitive essence of the awakened soul, the Putanas are decisively silenced at the very earliest stage of their encounter with the new-born Krishna. The would-be slayer of herself slain. This is the reward of the negative services that the Putanas unwittingly render to the cause of theism by strangling all hypocritical demonstrations against their own hypocrisy.

But Putana does not at all like to receive her reward in only form which involves the total destruction of her wrong personality. King Kamsa also does not like to lose the services of the most trusted of his agents. The effective silencing of the whole race of pseudo-teachers of religion is the first clear indication of the appearance of the Absolute on the mundane plane. The bona-fide teacher of the Absolute, heralds the Advent of Krishna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion.

[cbrahma]

 

Who's feeding who? I think you're confusing me with someone else.

The Hindus are 'feeding' ISKCON. Without them ISKCON could not survive.

[RadheRade1657]

 

Jesus never existed. So I don't see why we must believe in this non-existent entity in order to be vaishnava. Belief in the supremacy of Vishnu makes one a vaishnav. Therefore, the mythical Jesus is irrelevant to vaishnavism.

 

What makes you so sure that Jesus never existed? I bet you would be very angry if a Christian said such a thing about Lord Rama (who can't be historically proven any more than Jesus), but there you go saying it about Lord Jesus (who can't be historically proven anymore than Sri Rama). Hmmm... well if that's not blatant hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

[Dark Warrior]

 

are you a vaishnava? a vaishnava can't be vaishnava and antichrist at the same time. Talking about secret mantras and their meanings and you can't understand a simply thing about Lord Jesus identity?

 

Can you say us what you have against Him?

 

My dear friend, by the grace of the Lord, I am born in a family that distantly traces its lineage to Sri Yajnamurthy Himself, the great disciple of Sri Ramanujar. He was a great advaitin who lost to Sri Ramanujar in a debate that lasted for 17 days, upon which He became a renowned disciple at the lotus feet of Lakshmana Muni. Our family also carries the title 'Prativadi Bhayankarar' meaning, 'great arguer'. It was bestowed on one of our ancestors' spiritual master by Sri Vedanta Desikar Himself, when this spiritual master defeated advaitins in a debate.

 

Much to my shame, I led a completely materialistic life for 20 years, utterly devoid of any spirituality, until I attended an ISKCON bhajan. After getting taught the basics and reading Srila Prabhupada's divine works, my life thankfully took a turn for the better. That is the reason I, despite being a Sri Vaishnava, have so much interest and gratitude to ISKCON and Gaudiya Vaishnavism (and Srila Prabhupada).

 

I don't have anything against Jesus. He was a swell chap. The problem I have is people going the wrong way by calling him a vaishnava acharya when atheists like Mahavira had more knowledge of Karma, Samsara and Ahimsa than he did.

 

 

What makes you so sure that Jesus never existed? I bet you would be very angry if a Christian said such a thing about Lord Rama (who can't be historically proven any more than Jesus), but there you go saying it about Lord Jesus (who can't be historically proven anymore than Sri Rama). Hmmm... well if that's not blatant hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

 

It can be countered as follows:

 

1) Krishna and Rama have exhibited all attributes of Brahman. Krishna alone was a child, a lover, a parent, husband, father, philosopher and one who gave moksha to many people. So, it is OK to believe in their historicity. I do not see one godly attribute that Jesus presented.

 

2) Having learned of all the attributes, we decipher their actions. Sri Rama chose to hide His divinity. If it was a mythological story, why would Valmiki Bhagavan try to hide the glory of his main character? Any story teller would like to highlight the hero. But in Rama's case, His divinity can only be noticed by meticulous study of sastras.

 

3) Every step and action of the Lord has proven to have a deep meaning. Sri Periyavacchan Pillai has shown how Srimad Ramayana is saranagati sastra itself, and how the Lord acts in such a way that He exhibits uncountable auspicious attributes in every sloka of the Ramayana.

 

4) Ours is the only religion that is able to describe God so perfectly.

 

5) Proof is there to show Jesus's miraculous birth is false. For one thing, the three sages stuff is taken from Buddha's story. The dark night, shepherds, etc. is taken from Krishna's story. The star of David most likely is the result of a vague rumor about a God who was born under a star (Rohini) that came to the West at that time.

 

No such influence on our ithihasas.

 

I am not saying Jesus never existed. I am saying he was just a leader of a cult who idolised him so much that he became God to them. And he appeared to be quite a philosopher. The gnostic texts show that he was either a cryptic Buddhist or an Advaitin.

 

EDIT: To Raghu - You had mentioned that Sri Hari can act independently of the sastras. That is true, certainly, as He is capable of anything. But the Sri Vaishnava view is that, in order to instill utmost faith in the jivas, He voluntarily refrains from doing anything that isn't in sastras. This is proven by the fact that in His avatars as Rama and Narasimha, He refrained from violating Brahma's boons to Ravana and Hiranyakasipu, when He had no need to. And even as Krishna, He worships Shiva just because He had given His word to the latter that He would do so. In the Santi Parva, He explains to Arjuna the reason why He kept His promise and worshipped Shiva - So that His devotees would have full faith in His word.

[tackleberry]

 

What makes you so sure that Jesus never existed? I bet you would be very angry if a Christian said such a thing about Lord Rama (who can't be historically proven any more than Jesus), but there you go saying it about Lord Jesus (who can't be historically proven anymore than Sri Rama). Hmmm... well if that's not blatant hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

 

Evidently, you missed the point. The point is NOT whether Jesus existed, but if belief in Jesus is necessary at all. For the vaishnava, the answer is no. What christians think of Lord Rama is hardly the subject matter here.

[tackleberry]

And even if he existed, what happened to jesus was nothing extraordinary, most criminals at the time were punished by crucifixion. So this guy jesus wasn't the only one to undergo this, it was common during the Roman days. So if at all the man existed, he must've been a rabble-rouser who was punished eventually for treason. So the real traitor was jesus, not poor Judas! Judas must've been the real vaishnva, then. Judasaaya NamaH.

[cbrahma]

 

And even if he existed, what happened to jesus was nothing extraordinary, most criminals at the time were punished by crucifixion. So this guy jesus wasn't the only one to undergo this, it was common during the Roman days. So if at all the man existed, he must've been a rabble-rouser who was punished eventually for treason. So the real traitor was jesus, not poor Judas! Judas must've been the real vaishnva, then. Judasaaya NamaH.

Your contempt for Jesus is based on nothing but your contempt for Christianity. There is no historical evidence that Jesus was a criminal and much evidence that he was at least a very knowledgeable and influential Rabbi.

[tackleberry]

 

Your contempt for Jesus is based on nothing but your contempt for Christianity. There is no historical evidence that Jesus was a criminal and much evidence that he was at least a very knowledgeable and influential Rabbi.

So? I am Vaishnava, and I see no reason to believe in jesus or whoever. If you love him so much that you attack another vaishnava, then by all means, become a catholic and serve jeeesus:rolleyes:, and leave the vaishnavas alone.

[cbrahma]

 

So? I am Vaishnava, and I see no reason to believe in jeeesus or whoever. If you love him so much that you attack another vaishnava, then by all means, become a catholic and serve jeeesus:rolleyes:, and leave the vaishnavas alone.

 

The claim that one is a vaisnava should not rest on one's refutation and contempt for a specific religion. That is very un-vaishanava. Bhaktivinode Thakur had no patience with sectarian contempt.

Also , the insistence that 'I am a Vaisnava' is also not Vaisnava, given the key qualification is abject humility to the point of not even accepting that designation for oneself.

[GODSEED]

SHREERÄDHÄKRSHNACHAITANYÄY NAMAH

SHREECHAITANYA MAHÄPRABHAVE NAMAH

SHREENITYÄNANDA PRABHAVE NAMAH

SHREE SHIVASHIVÄY NAMAH

JAY JAY SHREE BHAKTA VRNDA

 

 

much fuss and ado 'bout who is who...

 

Jesus was certainly a great saint, make no mistakes about it guys, and ShreeRädhe's and ShreeSadäShiva's causelss kripä, i know that i can't know anyting What Bhagavän ShreeKrishna is...what me, even Bhrahmäjee can't know.

 

but that doesnt mean that Lord Jesus cant be a asaint, the only mistake that was made was that of preaching christianity in part of that world that was already aware and engaged in much higher devotion. No preacher should have been sent to the Indian Sub-continent, that broadly was aware of the Supreme Bhagavän., so far greeks and romans is concerned, it was alright 'cause they were unaware of the Supreme Person, and were living, by and large, an animalistic life of eating, mating and sleeping.

 

but sending disciples to india and staring conversion is certainly terrible. i dont intend to hurt christians...but one has to accept the undeniable Truth.

 

ShreeNitäiiGauraPremänande...ShreeGauraHaribol

 

[cbrahma]

When either the condescension is polite or arrogant is still amuses me that self-styled 'higher' Vaisnavas pride themselves on not being religion 'x' whether it be Christian, Muslim or otherwise.

Logically to claim a relation of superiority to this or that religion implies that the higher path for which one is claiming superiority is also a religion.

 

But the understanding of the great Acaryas on this matter transcends religious distinctions of 'I am Christian', 'I am Muslim'.

 

 

 

Prabhupada: Don't come to Christianity. I'm talking on religion, the science of religion. The religion... When we speak of religion, there is no question of Christianity or Muslim or Hindu. Just like when they speak of gold, gold is gold everywhere. Gold cannot be Muslim gold or Hindu gold or Christian gold. We are concerned with gold, not the country where the gold is produced. That is not very important thing. Whether it is gold, that is our business.

Cline Cross: I mean, would you count Jesus Christ as gold? Prabhupada: Yes, why not? He's speaking about the supreme controller, God, so why should we not? Anyone who is speaking about God... (break) Religion without science or philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So they must be combined together. So far the controller is concerned, this is scientific understanding. Just like the father... We consider... Why we? Everyone. Either he is Christian or Muhammadan or Hindu, the conception of God is generally accepted as the supreme father.

 

[mahak]

Haribol. Lots of points here, which is very cool. Sometimes folks comment on Srila Prabhupadas inconsistancies. I never shout "aparadhi" at this activity, because he speaks to all of us (thus jagat guru), and none of us are very together as far as viewpoints or purposes. However, is ISKCON established as a religion, when Srila Prabhupadas main teaching is emphasized with the sloka of the gita that is described here, abandonment of all varieties of religion (not just religion, but all varieties of religion)? If so, this would be a severe inconsistancy.

 

But ISKCON was not established as a religion. It is a practical vehicle that Srila Prabhupada utilized to preach bhakti yoga in the form of samkirtana yajna. The so-called successors may have made it into a religion, but it is a commercial venture. They were not appointed gurus of a religion, priests were not ordained to perform materialistic and cheap baptisms. The leaders were given the duty to MANAGE. Thus the word itself implies that this foundation is a preaching apparatus, not a religion or a variety of hinduism.

 

Srila Prabhupadas disciples were not even all members of ISKCON. I knew many who were initiated without even ever being in an official temple recognized by ISKCON. I lived in a center where ISKCON hierarchy had declared us their enemy, yet whenever Srila Prabhupada came to the big city, he personally sent emissaries to give his well wishes and directives and teachings.

 

This is not unlike Lord Jesus, who was also reproached by his disciples, who worried about devotees not part of the religion they were attempting to create. Lord Jesus Christ admonished them by stating clearly that "those who are not against us are with us". Srila Prabhupada did not establish the religion of hare krsna or ISKCON. He established harinama samkirtana as practical application of yuga dharma, for Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus and all others who have a conception of a personality of Godhead. His first statements upon arriving in the west is that his movement was non-sectarian.

 

So, I read where some say ISKCON is dependent on hindu support. I fully agree, this is a fact. Years ago, a decision was made that ISKCON is a religion. Which brings me to my main point. How can one follow the most important verse in Bhagavad Gita while refusing to abandon the religion of ISKCON. Because it has come to be known over the last quarter of a century that ISKCON as a religion is full of the same disqualifications as any other fool's religion, from huge money scams, greed, mysogeny, child abuse, fanaticism, fundamental sectarianism.

 

ISKCON as a preaching apparatus to spread the teachings of Srila Prabhupada is another story, though. There is a pure society of devotees who reject fools religions fully. They accept Haridas Thakur, despite material disqualification. They will give full guru status to a prostitute who directs them to Krsna. Our acaryas were not religionists at all. Nor was Lord Jesus Christ, despite the protests of the r4evisionists.

 

These religionists remind me of Aqualung by the great Jethro Tull, who stated "In the beginning, man created god."

 

Anyway, good discussion, hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[RadheRade1657]

 

And even if he existed, what happened to jesus was nothing extraordinary, most criminals at the time were punished by crucifixion. So this guy jesus wasn't the only one to undergo this, it was common during the Roman days. So if at all the man existed, he must've been a rabble-rouser who was punished eventually for treason. So the real traitor was jesus, not poor Judas! Judas must've been the real vaishnva, then. Judasaaya NamaH.

 

Who cares if it wasn't "extraordinary"? Rapes happen all the time. They're not "extraordinary" either, but they are horrible crimes that no one ever deserves to go through.

So, he deserved to be crucified for treason against the cruel Roman government? Oh, God forbid someone disobey a ruthless set of conquerors who massacred thousands of people all over the world!

Oh, yes, let us all take refuge in Judas, who sold out his teacher for 30 shekels...

[RadheRade1657]

deleted

[meenakshiamman]

 

What makes you so sure that Jesus never existed? I bet you would be very angry if a Christian said such a thing about Lord Rama (who can't be historically proven any more than Jesus), but there you go saying it about Lord Jesus (who can't be historically proven anymore than Sri Rama). Hmmm... well if that's not blatant hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

Allow me (if it's ok) to put a semi-ex-christian, non-vaishnava influenced stance on this.

 

There is very little if any proof of Jesus' existence. At least, if you believe everything said about him in the Gospels.

The thing is that so many times and locations etc. are mentioned in accordance to His lifetime that one can in theory research these references and see if they add up.

 

For example, it has mostly proven that Jesus could not have been born in Bethlehem. Even though that is the popular consensus.

 

This does not exactly prove that he didn't exist, but that perhaps what has been written about him is not exactly truthful.

[RadheRade1657]

 

Allow me (if it's ok) to put a semi-ex-christian, non-vaishnava influenced stance on this.

 

There is very little if any proof of Jesus' existence. At least, if you believe everything said about him in the Gospels.

The thing is that so many times and locations etc. are mentioned in accordance to His lifetime that one can in theory research these references and see if they add up.

 

For example, it has mostly proven that Jesus could not have been born in Bethlehem. Even though that is the popular consensus.

 

This does not exactly prove that he didn't exist, but that perhaps what has been written about him is not exactly truthful.

Well, there's also no physical evidence of the existence of Sri Rama or Kanya Kumari, or any other avatar within Hinduism (excepting a few recent ones). There's hardly any evidence for Buddha. There's virtually no evidence for Lao Tzu or Confucius either. All religion is based on faith. To believe in Maheshwara or Sri Meenakshi Devi is based solely on faith, nothing else. So, what I was trying to say with the statement you quoted was: Why is it okay for one to have faith in Rama, but not to have faith in Jesus?

[tackleberry]

 

Well, there's also no physical evidence of the existence of Sri Rama or Kanya Kumari, or any other avatar within Hinduism (excepting a few recent ones). There's hardly any evidence for Buddha. There's virtually no evidence for Lao Tzu or Confucius either. All religion is based on faith. To believe in Maheshwara or Sri Meenakshi Devi is based solely on faith, nothing else. So, what I was trying to say with the statement you quoted was: Why is it okay for one to have faith in Rama, but not to have faith in Jesus?

 

If you claim to be vaishnava, belief in Vishnu will suffice. You don't have to believe in jesus, mickey mouse, popeye and the rest.

[RadheRade1657]

 

If you claim to be vaishnava, belief in Vishnu will suffice. You don't have to believe in jesus, mickey mouse, popeye and the rest.

 

I agree that to be Vaishnava you don't have to believe in Jesus. But I don't think that just because you choose not to believe in him that you need to insult him with smart little comments (such as putting him on the same level as cartoon characters).

[meenakshiamman]

 

Well, there's also no physical evidence of the existence of Sri Rama or Kanya Kumari, or any other avatar within Hinduism (excepting a few recent ones). There's hardly any evidence for Buddha. There's virtually no evidence for Lao Tzu or Confucius either. All religion is based on faith. To believe in Maheshwara or Sri Meenakshi Devi is based solely on faith, nothing else. So, what I was trying to say with the statement you quoted was: Why is it okay for one to have faith in Rama, but not to have faith in Jesus?

Yes, but the Jesus thing is a bit complex. It's not just that we can't prove he exists...it's that we can prove that things attributed to him never happened at all.

 

Again, this doesn't mean that he didn't exist, but that obviously whoever wrote the Gospels (or whoever decided to edit them later) was rather untruthful.

[cbrahma]

 

I agree that to be Vaishnava you don't have to believe in Jesus. But I don't think that just because you choose not to believe in him that you need to insult him with smart little comments (such as putting him on the same level as cartoon characters).

What faith do you need to be a vaisnava? What are the qualifications?

Should that be one's manifest goal? Yes I want to be a Vaisnava so now I'm going to do such and such , live in a temple, follow some Vedic rules and then I can call myself a Vaisnava. Is that how it goes? Are Vaisnava those people who have striven for that title or rather those sincere servants of God who have surrendered their lives to Him? None of this has to do with an obssessive concern over not believing in Jesus.

[RadheRade1657]

 

What faith do you need to be a vaisnava? What are the qualifications?

Should that be one's manifest goal? Yes I want to be a Vaisnava so now I'm going to do such and such , live in a temple, follow some Vedic rules and then I can call myself a Vaisnava. Is that how it goes? Are Vaisnava those people who have striven for that title or rather those sincere servants of God who have surrendered their lives to Him? None of this has to do with an obssessive concern over not believing in Jesus.

I'm not obsessively concerned with people not believing in Jesus. I just don't think it's appropriate to insult another's religious figure (especially when you believe in other, also non-provable religious figures).