Fall verses from padma purana

[vijay]

Sorry for bringing up this topic,

A few devotees have bought these verses to my attention, some of you might have already seen these verses. Has anyone got a transliterated copy of these verses? Also if some one has got a wider context of verses before and after would be helpful too.

 

Thanks,

YS

 

Vijay

 

http://www.trsiyengar.com/id84.shtml

 

 

 

In one of the letters in this conference, it was said that only ISKCON has the philosophy of the soul originally falling from Krishna-lila in the spiritual world.

 

 

 

 

What is the origin of the souls the material or the spiritual world or in other words, did we were before our material existence in this material world with the Supreme Personality of Godhead or somewhere else is an interesting topic that is discussed in many religions. Here are some quotes to be considered from the Padma purana that suggest fall-down from the spiritual world. In the next essay we will give the rest of the slokas from the Padma purana on this subject. And later on from the other sattvika puranas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.15.228 ..he goes to Visnu's (the Supreme of all Deities) world and fallen from Visnu's world he goes to Rudraloka and fallen from that place also he is born in the various divisions of the world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

NOTE: Visnu's world is not temporary as the planet of the demigods. Later on we read "it is beyond the darkness of maya, it is eternal, beyond all miseries".

 

 

 

 

1.20.53 One who donates to a brahmana and garlands the Lord saying "my Lord Pradyumna be pleased" will live in the city of Visnu for a kalpa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.20.93 .one who is performing this tapasya in the month of Visnu and giving a cow to a brahmana, he stays for a kalpa at the place of Visnu.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.20.98 .one who is doing this tapasya he goes to the highest position from which return is difficult. This is called Suvrata, having done which rebirth is not easy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.20.111 One who does Laksmi-vrata will live for a kalpa in the world of Laksmi.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.21.75 Performing vishaka dvadasi vrata, (elaborately described before) fasting removes all sins. On death he reaches Visnu's or Keshava's city and his recollection of Hari, the enemy of the demons Madhu, Mura and Naraka for 9.018.000.000 years.

 

 

 

 

 

1.21.154 give a mountain of sesame, 140, 70 or 42 kg to a brahmana to be used in Yajna along with the rite

 

 

 

 

 

(described before) goes to the abode of Visnu, the murderer of Madhu from which return

(rebirth) is difficult.

 

 

 

1.21.180 give a mountain of 1000, 500 or 300 pearls (with elaborate rites, described) to a brahmana

 

 

 

 

 

goes for 100 kalpas to Visnu's world.

 

 

 

1.21.206 give mountain of 1000 or 400 kg sugar with rite to priests, goes to Brahmaloka. Then

 

 

 

 

 

getting into an aeroplane shining like Moon and Sun he would rise from there and go to the heaven of Lord Visnu for 100 kalpas.

 

 

 

 

1.24 worship Govinda with singing and musical instruments, pray. Donate cows, gold etc.etc.

 

 

 

 

 

with rites is honoured in Visnu's world for thousands and hundreds of kalpas.

 

 

 

1.27.59 The pure one, performing the religious deeds (elaborately described in 5 verses) goes to

 

 

 

 

 

Brahmaloka for many kalpas. Moving in many worlds for 2 parardhas (lifetime of Brahma), he again goes to Visnu's abode obtainable by the power of deep and abstract meditation.

 

 

 

 

1.52.49 (After descriptions of sins and hells).

 

 

 

 

 

Brahmana: how to become free from the reactions of such bad deeds.

Lord (Visnu, Keshava or Hari) said: leave householder's life, always loudly chant My name Govinda an worship Me. All sins perish as cotton or may perish in contact with fire. He will live for a long time in My City. Then he becomes an emperor after having lived in My house according to his desire.

 

 

 

1.57.16 Vyasadeva: give or construct a water tank (large artificial reservoir for storing water)

 

 

 

 

 

measuring 20 cubits, go to Visnu's Abode. Afterwards born as king or wealthy man or orator.

1.57.17 if measures 1000 cubits, he doesn't fall from Visnu's heaven. All his sins will be destroyed.

1.57.44 and will obtain the auspicious salvation.

 

 

 

 

1.58 King constructed bridges, dug wells, planted trees did Yajna, Dana and Tapah.

 

 

 

 

 

Again before Yama's assembly.Citragupta.."go to Visnu's Abode".

Aeroplane came, went to Visnu's heaven, the great heaven from which returning is difficult.

 

 

 

 

 

2.4.1 Goloka, the Heaven of Visnu, beyond darkness, the world of salvation.

 

 

 

 

2.22.25 Suvrata: O Krsna, O Lord Murari, always sprinkle me with water of knowledge, me - who have fallen in the great ditch covered with fearful darkness called Samsara.

 

 

 

 

 

 

2.98.65 With devotion I Salute the good excellent sanctifying couple of Feet of Vasudeva, Bhagavan who

 

 

 

 

 

is the affectionate Emancipator of him who has fallen into the great Ocean of the worldly existence.

 

 

 

 

2.120.33 The soul bound by faults is taken to the worldly existence.

 

 

 

 

2.121.3 Tulasi: "Listen O Narada, for what reason does My Lord, the Master of the world go to the

wordly existence"? A man who is bound by sinful and even meritorious acts moves to the worldly existence.

O brahmana, tell me why Visnu would go to worldly existence.

 

 

 

 

2.125.4 In Treta Yuga men listened to the Padma purana and enjoying the fruit of the 4 goals of life, Dharma,

Artha, Kama and Moksha they would again reach Visnu.

 

 

 

 

3.18.62 (..many bhakti-sukrtis..) then going to Visnu's heaven, he is full of sport and enjoyments.

Having enjoyed great pleasures there, he is born as a king in the mortal world.

 

 

 

 

3.31.126 He who devotedly worships a 100 Saligrama Sila will after living with Visnu in Visnu's heaven, then

born as a sovereign emperor here on earth.

..if with joy worship Visnu's Salagrama stone doesn't fall from heaven till deluge.

 

 

 

 

3.31.132 human, highly devoted, in Kali-yuga worship Salagrama-silas by offering eatables, flowers, incense, lights, ointments, song, musical instruments, hymns rejoices in Visnu's company (salvation) for a 1000 crores of kalpas.

4.2.4 .one who cleanses with water the temple of the Lord, lives in Visnu's abode for as many thousands of kalpas as dust particles one removes.

 

 

 

 

4.2 thief sinner before Yamaraja. Citragupta spoke

"Committed all the sins Creator created on earth. Once stole from temple, entered temple put feet

dirty with mud on ground (stamped): ground free from slope, holes and pits. Saluted Radha Krsna

Murti lying sleeping on a bed, thereby free from all sin. Then he discussed with the Deity "shall I steal or not?

I am all time thief, I cannot serve Lord, let me steal". Krsna's maya (magic) and his trembling hands caused

jewels etc. fall with too loud noise on the floor, nearly caught, fled. bitten by cobra, died.go to Visnu's

excellent Abode, lived there for long time as many 1000 kalpas as dust/mud particles he had thrown down

from his feet.

 

 

 

 

4.3 Rat came to eat ghee of lamp offered before Visnu, Krsna, Damodara in Kartika month. It started eating and moved up the ghee. So, the lamp burnt more brightly. Out of fear the rat ran away. It had revived lamp in front of Visnu; sins of crores of previous existences perished. Went from ocean of mundane existence for a hundred ages of Manus to the world of cows, in Visnu's proximity. Then princess here. Then back again.

 

 

 

 

4.11.20 Laksmi-Narayana, worship 4 consecutive thursdays in Margashirsha month (offer sweets, prayers,

presents). Live in Laksmi's city for so many 1000's of kalpas as many times the worship is practiced.

 

 

 

 

4.12.62 He who protects brahmanas by giving his life and wealth goes to Visnu's Abode, from which a

return (to the mortal world) is difficult to have.

4.15.43 husband and wife keep Ekadasi fast (incl. stay awake at night etc.) stay together for long time in

Visnu's Abode.

4.16.16 offer with devotion cowries (shell, money/ornament) to the Deity will live in Hari's abode for as many days as number of cowries offered.

 

 

 

 

COMMENTS: Srila Prabhupada in the purport to the Srimad Bhagavatam 8.5.5 writes: "As described in the Second Canto, Lord Brahma saw Vaikuntha before the creation of the universe. Viraraghava Acarya mentions that this Vaikuntha is within the universe. It is situated above the mountain known as Lokaloka. This planet is worshiped by everyone". The following slokas describe this Vaikuntha.

 

 

 

SB 2.9.9: His personal abode,

Vaikuntha, the supreme planet above all others. This transcendental abode of the Lord is adored by all self-realized persons freed from all kinds of miseries and fear of illusory existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

SB 2.9.10: In that personal abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail, nor is there any of their influence in goodness. There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy; it cannot enter that region.

 

 

 

 

 

SB 2.9.11: The inhabitants of the Vaikuntha planets are described as having a glowing sky-bluish complexion. Their eyes resemble lotus flowers, their dress is of yellowish color, and their bodily features very attractive. They are just the age of growing youths, they all have four hands, they are all nicely decorated with pearl necklaces with ornamental medallions, and they all appear to be effulgent.

 

 

 

 

 

SB 2.9.12: Some of them are effulgent like coral and diamonds in complexion and have garlands on their heads, blooming like lotus flowers, and some wear earrings.

 

 

 

 

Now, just as the living entity can fall down again from the transcendental abode of Vaikuntha of this material world although Visnu Himself is there and many liberated sages and devotees, similarly one can fall down from the transcendental abode of Visnu or Krishna in the spiritual world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In this regard Sanatana Gosvami describes in the Sri Brhad-bhagavatamrta that as one goes up in the material and spiritual world, the forms of Krishna become transcendentally more opulent and attractive, in other words increasingly less chance of falling down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If one goes back to Visnuloka situated within the Mahat tattva two things can happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) One can come back again to the material planets. Taking birth at or close to a holy place of Vishnu or Krishna in this earthly planet from where he will go back to either Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana beyond the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

2) One can go from the Visnuloka within this mahat-tattva to the Visnuloka of the spiritual world beyond the mahat-tattva. The Visnuloka is in some ways like the bhauma Vrindavana for Krishna bhaktas, an intermediate place before attainment of the highest abode.

 

 

 

 

Compiled by Sri Sri Nitai Das Prabhu

[kimfelix]

You might have to be a bit careful with the Padma Purana. For one thing it has been heavily interpolated and there are a number of different recensions of the Sanskrit text. So verses appearing in one manuscript are often absent from others.

 

Moreover, the Padma Purana is not a Vaishnava text in the same way as the Vishnu Purana or the Bhagavata. Its opening books seem to be devoted to Brahma and in particularl to the tirtha of Pushkara. The name Padma refers to Pushkara, as it is believed that a petal from Brahma's lotus fell to earth there, which is why it has the name Pushkar. Anyway, the point is that in certain passages Vishnu is taken as being one of the Adityas and the abode of Vishnu seems to be situated in svargaloka rather than in a spiritual domain. Hence using the Padma Purana in debates over Vaishnava theology can be problematic.

[Kulapavana]

<CENTER> <CENTER>Chapter 15. The Yoga of the Supreme Person</CENTER>

 

TEXT 6

na tad bhasayate suryo

na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

SYNONYMS

 

na--not; tat--that; bhasayate--illuminates; suryah--the sun; na--nor; sasankah--the moon; na--nor; pavakah--fire, electricity; yat--where; gatva--going; na--never; nivartante--comes back; tat dhama--that abode; paramam--supreme; mama--My.

 

TRANSLATION

 

That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world. </CENTER>----

 

 

So, obviously, Krsna must be lying to Arjuna when He says: "One who reaches My abode never returns to this material world" ?

[Kulapavana]

sometimes vaikuntha simply means: "place free from anxiety", and sometimes it means "brahman" (like here: 1.27.59 The pure one, performing the religious deeds (elaborately described in 5 verses) goes to Brahmaloka for many kalpas. Moving in many worlds for 2 parardhas (lifetime of Brahma), he again goes to Visnu's abode obtainable by the power of deep and abstract meditation.)

[Sarva gattah]

 

So, obviously, Krsna must be lying to Arjuna when He says: "One who reaches My abode never returns to this material world" ?

 

It is totally absurd to think that the jiva cannot come down to the material world from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha due to free will.

 

It is true however that their nitya-siddha body can never fall down.

So how can we be in the material and spiritual world simultaneously?

Srila Prabhupada has explained to us that the answer is the time factor and not the division of the self.

The nitya-siddha is referred to as the eternal Krishna Conscious bodily form or higher self of ones marginal identity, while the nitya-baddha consciousness is devoid of form and is referred to as the secondary inferior conscious projection or lower self that is activated by ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts.

It IS that way due to eternal time in relation to divided time.

These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing and causeless mercy of the Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada has actually told us that Acintyah means inconceivable though the way to understand the apparent existence and paradox of both the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness existing at the same time is by understanding the nitya-siddha is ones original state while nitya baddha is ones dreaming non Krishna conscious imagination, meaning it is real, but temporary.

The nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna.

The nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness finds its ability to be active within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the jiva-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels so one can actively act out their nonsensical dreams within His mahat-tattva or material creation.

 

What is the impersonal Brahmajyoti, what is it made of?

 

Answer - The baddha-jiva can also choose, after much struggle, to be conditioned not only outside the Vaikuntha realm, but also outside the active mahat-tattva and within their own (jiva-baddha) Impersonal inactive dormant dreamless conscious condition known as the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman. It is there within their own impersonal conscious state that is similtaneously known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, an unlimited number of 'jiva-baddhas' also remain dormant and 'dreamless'.

 

The impersonal Brahman is for ever expaning with dormant baddha-jivas due to conditioned souls constantly being liberated from the mahat-tattva that they long, long long ago entered from falling down from Vaikuntha.

 

As just explained, it is only then their conscious state appears dreamless within an individual collective of other baddha-jivas that resembling dormant light particles of individual consciousness known as the impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoyi. In that impersonal drealess condition, they are not aware of past, present and future, Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva however, even this dreamless state is temporary.

 

As already explained, Srila Prabhupada has told us that the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay.

Both are temporary conditions because the DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually.

Srila Prabhupada has further explained that the marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya baddha, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because all marginal living entities are always nitya-siddha, they only DREAM they are nitya baddha, so technically the living entity never falls down, he only thinks, imagines or deams he is no longer in Vaikuntha.

The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternally ones genuine identity perpetually.

Srila Prabhupada is clearly telling us that the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and is given material ethereal and biological bodily facilities or vessels that make such dreams a temporary reality.

However, they are subject to decay and are transitory.

Srila Prabhupada is telling us that at the same 'time' that one chooses to be absorbed in their non-Krishna nitya-baddha dreams, ones 'svarupa' body is perpetually in Goloka in the eternal 'present' similtaneously.

Unfortunately even many so called advanced devotees cannot understand this fact as revealed to me in a class Banu Swami recently gave.

At times Srila Prabhupada said it was a waste of time to understand and at other times he said it was important to understand.

It depends on the devotee, not everyone can understand this and frankly most don't realize this until they go Back home, Back to Godhead

[Kulapavana]

 

It is totally absurd to think that the jiva cannot come down to the material world from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha due to free will.

 

It is true however that their nitya-siddha body can never fall down.

So how can we be in the material and spiritual world simultaneously?

Srila Prabhupada has explained to us that the answer is the time factor and not the division of the self.

 

 

The absurd theories you attribute to Prabhupada would make him a founder of a new apasampradaya.

 

Jiva CAN come down to the material world due to free will, but it DOES NOT ever exercise that option. Just like I can make a hole in my belly, but I would never actually do that.

 

When Lord Krsna says that ""One who reaches My abode never returns to this material world" He means it. Do not twist His words, as it is a great offense. Remember? Bhagavad Gita AS IT IS!!!!!!!! Not your pathetic speculations.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Jiva CAN come down to the material world due to free will, but it DOES NOT ever exercise that option.

 

NONSENSE, you obviously do not understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Here are the facts -

 

Srila Prabhupada has actually told us that Acintyah means inconceivable though the way to understand the apparent existence and paradox of both the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness existing at the same time, is by understanding the nitya-siddha is the original state of the marginal living entity, while nitya baddha is ones dreaming non Krishna conscious imagination, meaning it is real, but temporary.

 

The nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna. The nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness, which is the secondary conscious condition that ALL living entities can activate, on the other hand, finds its only reality within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the jiva-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels, so the baddha-jiva can actively act out their nonsensical dreams within His mahat-tattva or material creation.

[Sarva gattah]

Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

[Kulapavana]

 

NONSENSE, you obviously do not understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

And of course you do...

 

On the subject of "fall from Vaikuntha" SP teachings are often contradictory and different than the teachings of our previous acharyas - thus they cannot be seen as the last word on this subject.

 

Like I said: Krsna clearly says in the Gita that one who REACHES (not "returns") His abode NEVER comes back. That is an absolute and final word on this subject, regardless of what you or someone else says.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave. That dream state consciousness is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha conscious consciousness.

 

In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

 

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka and can foolishly choose to come down to the material world at any in in a dream state but factually we do not go anywhere, we only think we do

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - ""The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world. Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28 54.

[Beggar]

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura perfectly harmonizes both Sarva gattah's and Kulapavana's positions in his Jaiva Dharma. Both positions are expressed within material language by conditioned human beings and are based on logic and reason. This is what Srila Prabhupada meant by the crow and tal fruit example. Each side of the argument can defeat the other by further logic and reason, but neither side will admit that. Remember the following passage is given by the Thakura after he has his character, Babaji, give the classic sastric tatastha origin of the jiva explanation. Not to follow the recommendations of Srila Thakura, Srila Prabhupada, Srila Sridhar Maharaja and others and argue endlessly must be an offense for sure and I have certainly been guilty of that.

 

 

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jivaand spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

All Vaisnavas say that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna, that his eternal nature is to serve Krsna, and that he is now bound by maya, because he has forgotten that eternal nature. However, everyone knows that the jiva is an eternal entity, of which there are two types: nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramada (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samadhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mayika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters.

I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas will begin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor. The Vedas say in Taittiriya Upanisad (2.9)

 

 

yato vaco nivartante aprapya manasa saha

 

 

The speech and the mind return from brahma, being unable to attain Him.

I advise you not to inquire about this matter from anyone, but to realize it yourself. I have just given you an indication (abhasa).

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - "If you fall down from the platform, then it is your fault. Just like we are all in the Vaikuntha planet. Now, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, "Go back to home, back to Godhead." Lecture Srimad-Bhagavatam 1975 750522SB.MEL

[Beggar]

 

Srila Prabhupada - "If you fall down from the platform, then it is your fault. Just like we are all in the Vaikuntha planet. Now, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, "Go back to home, back to Godhead." Lecture Srimad-Bhagavatam 1975 750522SB.MEL

 

So are have we fallen down? or are we in the Vaikuntha planet in the eternal present? Or are we from the tatastha loka? Actually all are true from different angles of vision. Why did the crow fly away? Was it because the tal fruit fell and he was startled? Or did the crow cause the fruit to fall by push off the small branch that the tal was connected? After all the whole event occured in an instant so how would we ever know? And this is really Srila Prabhupada's explanation as to why he gave at least three different explanations: the tatastha origin, the Vaikuntha origin and the eternal present explanation that we are all nitya siddha and not fallen.

[indulekhadasi]

Sigh...yet another fall of the jiva thread.

OK, can we keep this thread as the main thread for talking about this issue? Everyone can talk about it, but only HERE. Every week about 5 threads on this issue comes up. Seriously...it is time we start some real Krishna katha! Do you all think that by discussing this you will go back to Godhead?

[Kulapavana]

People are free to believe in whatever they like, even in great spiders from Mars. Yet various beliefs have various consequences. That is an observable fact. I see on this forum for example, that blind belief in certain things causes some people to twist the shastra and even offend senior Vaishnavas who hold different views. That is shastra-ninda and sadhu-ninda.

 

You are free to believe in spiders from Mars but beware of the tendency to twist facts to conform to your beliefs or to disrespect those who think differently, especially if they are Vaishnavas. That is dishonesty and malice.

[Beggar]

 

People are free to believe in whatever they like, even in great spiders from Mars. Yet various beliefs have various consequences. That is an observable fact. I see on this forum for example, that blind belief in certain things causes some people to twist the shastra and even offend senior Vaishnavas who hold different views. That is shastra-ninda and sadhu-ninda.

 

You are free to believe in spiders from Mars but beware of the tendency to twist facts to conform to your beliefs or to disrespect those who think differently, especially if they are Vaishnavas. That is dishonesty and malice.

 

Expressed in an expert manner.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - “We have given up the company of Krsna, and we wanted to be happy in this material world. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972 720928SB.LA

Srila Prabhupada - “So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment”. Washington D.C., July 8, 1976 760708ED.WDC

Srila Prabhupada - "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer." Also: "The vibbhinamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

The impersonal Brahman effulgence is full of jiva-baddha's in a dormant non-active dreamless state.

It is a temporary state for the jiva-baddha consciousness while inactive or free from the temporary bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

However this jiva baddha condition is actually the secondary conscious projection of the living entity.

This rebellious jiva-baddha non Krishna conscious condition is a sub-conscious state of the living entity that only manifests when they choose to not serve Krishna and instead chase their own delusional desires for pleasure that instantaneously places one's awareness within the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

As soon as the living entity chooses to withdrawals into to their baddha-jiva sub-conscious altered dreaming state, due to choosing to forget Krishna, they simultaneously forget their eternal nitya-siddha body and Krishna.

Instead, they now live within their own imaginary thoughts and dreams that place their sub-consciousness (nitya-baddha or baddha jiva lower self) within the mahat-tattva dreaming creation of Maha-Vishnu.

 

They can stay in this dream mahat-tattva creation for an almost eternity if they desire.

[kimfelix]

This is also, I think, a problem for the Advaita Vada although the question is phrased a little differently. Here it is asked how it is that the absolute Brahman finds itself to be in a state of avidya and indeed whether avidya is Brahman. We are taught that we misidentify our own existence; we are Brahman but we conceive ourselves to be that which is not Brahman. But where did this illusion come from, how can it arise and why does it do so? I was listening to a very learned pandit from the Shankara Math lecturing on this subject and he said it was a subject that could not be known.

 

And in a sense the present debate is parallel, albeit in a Vaishnava sort of way.

[Kulapavana]

 

This is also, I think, a problem for the Advaita Vada although the question is phrased a little differently. Here it is asked how it is that the absolute Brahman finds itself to be in a state of avidya and indeed whether avidya is Brahman. We are taught that we misidentify our own existence; we are Brahman but we conceive ourselves to be that which is not Brahman. But where did this illusion come from, how can it arise and why does it do so?

 

The issue of origin is an important one. I do not agree that it is merely irrelevant, or an exercise in futility - trying to understand what can not be understood.

 

We all find an answer that appeals to us, and which flows from our particular spiritual taste (rasa).

 

There is no harm in thinking we are asleep under some bush in Goloka, dreaming about being in the material world. But it is rather harmful to call those Vaishnavas who believe we fell from brahmajyoti "impersonalists".

[Sarva gattah]

 

This is also, I think, a problem for the Advaita Vada although the question is phrased a little differently. Here it is asked how it is that the absolute Brahman finds itself to be in a state of avidya and indeed whether avidya is Brahman. We are taught that we misidentify our own existence; we are Brahman but we conceive ourselves to be that which is not Brahman. But where did this illusion come from, how can it arise and why does it do so? I was listening to a very learned pandit from the Shankara Math lecturing on this subject and he said it was a subject that could not be known.

 

And in a sense the present debate is parallel, albeit in a Vaishnava sort of way.

 

This is how His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada explains this to us.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being a nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna, MEANS never falling down, however he is also saying that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over by the choice to imagine your own existence without Krishna, just like one may go into a day dream in their present material body and dream they are a King, while in the meantime their 'dreaming' material body has not moved.

 

In this way Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha’s can be covered over only and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds.

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering) however the nitya-siddha body, like the Sun, is eternally there behind the clouds, behind the baddha-jiva consciousness.

In fact most devotees in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha be covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious dream state.

Therefore most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha.

Such inconceivable statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate % of a % in an endless Spiritual creation?

So it is impotant to undertand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine and dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY. Most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore, it is due to the cloud covering we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or nitya-baddha consciousness.

This cloud covering is all we are aware off because it has blocked out the sun. We are not able to see the sun shinning due to the cloud covering the sun. The sun is still there, just as our nitya-siddha body is there in Goloka however; it is not realized because of the cloud cover therefore, we are nitya-baddha.

We can’t be nitya-siddha at this time because we cannot see or be aware of that covered identity.

Therefore our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha and remains so until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires by replacing them with devotional Krishna Conscious desires.

Then gradually the cloud cover or nitya-baddha dreaming condition is dissipated revealing the sun or our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity eternally serving Krishna.

[kimfelix]

Thank you for that explanation. It is rather similar to what Shankaracharya is saying. The Jiva is the unchanging Brahman but because of the influence of avidya it identifies itself as an individual person. Hence moksha is not a change of location or a change of the state of one's existence, it is just a change of perception from false to real.

[Kulapavana]

going back to the original issue:

 

Puranas speak of Lord Vishnu's abode in this world located on Suparswa Mountain, also described as Vaikunthaloka, and it is near Mount Meru, where the residences (abodes) of the principal Devatas are located. Sometimes that abode is described as situated on a remote island in the northernmost ocean (ocean of milk), Svetadvipa.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Thank you for that explanation. It is rather similar to what Shankaracharya is saying. The Jiva is the unchanging Brahman but because of the influence of avidya it identifies itself as an individual person. Hence moksha is not a change of location or a change of the state of one's existence, it is just a change of perception from false to real.

 

No you have misunderstood, it is nothing like that.

 

The following has nicely been presented by ghari prabhu that explains the Gaudiya position on the teaching of Sankaracharya

 

Excerpt of the purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 3.4.20:

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>According to Lord SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu, SrIpAda SaGkarAcArya preached the MAyAvAda philosophy for a particular purpose. Such a philosophy was necessary to defeat the Buddhist philosophy of the nonexistence of the spirit soul, but it was never meant for perpetual acceptance. It was an emergency.

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Caitanya Mahaprabhu describes how Krsna introduces various deviations to the Vedic Truth in this excerpt from Srimad Bhagavatam Canto Introduction:<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Those who are followers of the SaGkara cult are generally known as VedAntists. This does not, however, mean that VedAnta is a monopoly study of the SaGkara-sampradAya. VedAnta is studied by all the bona fide sampradAyas, but they have their own interpretations. But those in the SaGkara-sampradAya are generally known to be ignorant of the knowledge of the VedAntist VaiSNavas. For this reason the Bhaktivedanta title was first offered to the author by the VaiSNavas.

 

The Lord agreed to take lessons from BhaTTAcArya on the VedAnta, and they sat together in the temple of Lord JagannAtha. The BhaTTAcArya went on speaking continually for seven days, and the Lord heard him with all attention and did not interrupt. The Lord's silence raised some doubts in BhaTTAcArya's heart, and he asked the Lord how it was that He did not ask anything or comment on his explanations of VedAnta.

 

The Lord posed Himself before the BhaTTAcArya as a foolish student and pretended that He heard the VedAnta from him because the BhaTTAcArya felt that this was the duty of a sannyAsI. But the Lord did not agree with his lectures. By this the Lord indicated that the so-called VedAntists amongst the SaGkara-sampradAya, or any other sampradAya who do not follow the instructions of SrIla VyAsadeva, are mechanical students of the VedAnta. They are not fully aware of that great knowledge. The explanation of the VedAnta-sUtra is given by the author himself in the text of SrImad-BhAgavatam. One who has no knowledge of the BhAgavatam will hardly be able to know what the VedAnta says.

 

The BhaTTAcArya, being a vastly learned man, could follow the Lord's sarcastic remarks on the popular VedAntist. He therefore asked Him why He did not ask about any point which He could not follow. The BhaTTAcArya could understand the purpose of His dead silence for the days He heard him. This showed clearly that the Lord had something else in mind; thus the BhaTTAcArya requested Him to disclose His mind.

 

Upon this, the Lord spoke as follows: "My dear sir, I can understand the meaning of the sUtras like janmAdy asya yataH [sB 1.1.1], zAstra-yonitvAt, and athAto brahma jijJAsA of the VedAnta-sUtra, but when you explain them in your own way it becomes difficult for Me to follow them. The purpose of the sUtras is already explained in them, but your explanations are covering them with something else. You do not purposely take the direct meaning of the sUtras but indirectly give your own interpretations."

 

The Lord thus attacked all VedAntists who interpret the VedAnta-sUtra fashionably, according to their limited power of thinking, to serve their own purpose. Such indirect interpretations of the authentic literatures like the VedAnta-sUtra are hereby condemned by the Lord.

 

The Lord continued: "SrIla VyAsadeva has summarized the direct meanings of the mantras in the UpaniSads in the VedAnta-sUtra. Unfortunately you do not take their direct meaning. You indirectly interpret them in a different way.

 

"The authority of the Vedas is unchallengeable and stands without any question of doubt. And whatever is stated in the Vedas must be accepted completely, otherwise one challenges the authority of the Vedas.

 

"The conchshell and cow dung are bone and stool of two living beings. But because they have been recommended by the Vedas as pure, people accept them as such because of the authority of the Vedas."

 

The idea is that one cannot set his imperfect reason above the authority of the Vedas. The orders of the Vedas must be obeyed as they stand, without any mundane reasoning. The so-called followers of the Vedic injunctions make their own interpretations of the Vedic injunctions, and thus they establish different parties and sects of the Vedic religion. Lord Buddha directly denied the authority of the Vedas, and he established his own religion. Only for this reason, the Buddhist religion was not accepted by the strict followers of the Vedas. But those who are so-called followers of the Vedas are more harmful than the Buddhists. The Buddhists have the courage to deny the Vedas directly, but the so-called followers of the Vedas have no courage to deny the Vedas, although indirectly they disobey all the injunctions of the Vedas. Lord Caitanya condemned this.

 

The examples given by the Lord of the conchshell and the cow dung are very much appropriate in this connection. If one argues that since cow dung is pure, the stool of a learned brAhmaNa is still more pure, his argument will not be accepted. Cow dung is accepted, and the stool of a highly posted brAhmaNa is rejected. The Lord continued:

 

"The Vedic injunctions are self-authorized, and if some mundane creature adjusts the interpretations of the Vedas, he defies their authority. It is foolish to think of oneself as more intelligent than SrIla VyAsadeva. He has already expressed himself in his sUtras, and there is no need of help from personalities of lesser importance. His work, the VedAnta-sUtra, is as dazzling as the midday sun, and when someone tries to give his own interpretations on the self-effulgent sunlike VedAnta-sUtra, he attempts to cover this sun with the cloud of his imagination.

 

"The Vedas and PurANas are one and the same in purpose. They ascertain the Absolute Truth, which is greater than everything else. The Absolute Truth is ultimately realized as the Absolute Personality of Godhead with absolute controlling power. As such, the Absolute Personality of Godhead must be completely full of opulence, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation. Yet the transcendental Personality of Godhead is astonishingly ascertained as impersonal.

 

"The impersonal description of the Absolute Truth in the Vedas is given to nullify the mundane conception of the absolute whole. Personal features of the Lord are completely different from all kinds of mundane features. The living entities are all individual persons, and they are all parts and parcels of the supreme whole. If the parts and parcels are individual persons, the source of their emanation must not be impersonal. He is the Supreme Person amongst all the relative persons.

 

"The Vedas inform us that from Him [brahman] everything emanates, and on Him everything rests. And after annihilation, everything merges in Him only. Therefore, He is the ultimate dative, causative and accommodating cause of all causes. And these causes cannot be attributed to an impersonal object.

 

"The Vedas inform us that He alone became many, and when He so desires He glances over material nature. Before He glanced over material nature there was no material cosmic creation. Therefore, His glance is not material. Material mind or senses were unborn when the Lord glanced over material nature. Thus evidence in the Vedas proves that beyond a doubt the Lord has transcendental eyes and a transcendental mind. They are not material. His impersonality therefore is a negation of His materiality, but not a denial of His transcendental personality.

 

"Brahman ultimately refers to the Personality of Godhead. Impersonal Brahman realization is just the negative conception of the mundane creations. ParamAtmA is the localized aspect of Brahman within all kinds of material bodies. Ultimately the Supreme Brahman realization is the realization of the Personality of Godhead according to all evidence of the revealed scriptures. He is the ultimate source of viSNu-tattvas.

 

"The PurANas are also supplementary to the Vedas. The Vedic mantras are too difficult for an ordinary man. Women, zUdras and the so-called twice-born higher castes are unable to penetrate into the sense of the Vedas. And thus the MahAbhArata as well as the PurANas are made easy to explain the truths of the Vedas. In his prayers before the boy SrI KRSNa, BrahmA said that there is no limit to the fortune of the residents of VrajabhUmi headed by SrI Nanda MahArAja and YazodAmayI because the eternal Absolute Truth has become their intimate relative.

 

"The Vedic mantra maintains that the Absolute Truth has no legs and no hands and yet goes faster than all and accepts everything that is offered to Him in devotion. The latter statements definitely suggest the personal features of the Lord, although His hands and legs are distinguished from mundane hands and legs or other senses.

 

"Brahman, therefore, is never impersonal, but when such mantras are indirectly interpreted, it is wrongly thought that the Absolute Truth is impersonal. The Absolute Truth Personality of Godhead is full of all opulences, and therefore He has a transcendental form of full existence, knowledge and bliss. How then can one establish that the Absolute Truth is impersonal?

 

"Brahman, being full of opulences, is understood to have manifold energies, and all these energies are classified under three headings under the authority of ViSNu PurANa [6.7.60], which says that the transcendental energies of Lord ViSNu are primarily three. His spiritual energy and the energy of the living entities are classified as superior energy, whereas the material energy is an inferior one which is sprouted out of ignorance.

 

"The energy of the living entities is technically called kSetrajJa energy. This kSetrajJa-zakti, although equal in quality with the Lord, becomes overpowered by material energy out of ignorance and thus suffers all sorts of material miseries. In other words, the living entities are located in the marginal energy between the superior (spiritual) and inferior (material) energies, and in proportion to the living being's contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living entity is situated in proportionately higher and lower levels of existence.

 

"The Lord is beyond the inferior and marginal energies as above mentioned, and His spiritual energy is manifested in three different phases: as eternal existence, eternal bliss and eternal knowledge. As far as eternal existence is concerned, it is conducted by the sandhinI potency; similarly, bliss and knowledge are conducted by the hlAdhinI and saMvit potencies respectively. As the supreme energetic Lord, He is the supreme controller of the spiritual, marginal and material energies. And all these different types of energies are connected with the Lord in eternal devotional service.

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead is thus enjoying in His transcendental eternal form. Is it not astounding that one dares to call the Supreme Lord nonenergetic? The Lord is the controller of all energies, and the living entities are parts and parcels of one of the energies. Therefore there is a gulf of difference between the Lord and the living entities. How then can one say that the Lord and the living entities are one and the same? In the Bhagavad-gItA also the living entities are described as belonging to the superior energy of the Lord. According to the principles of intimate correlation between the energy and the energetic, both of them are nondifferent also. Therefore, the Lord and the living entities are nondifferent as the energy and the energetic.

 

"Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and ego are all inferior energies of the Lord, but the living entities are different from all as superior energy. This is the version of Bhagavad-gItA [7.4].

 

"The transcendental form of the Lord is eternally existent and full of transcendental bliss. How then can such a form be a product of the material mode of goodness? Anyone, therefore, who does not believe in the form of the Lord is certainly a faithless demon and as such is untouchable, a not to be seen persona non grata fit to be punished by the Plutonic king.

 

"The Buddhists are called atheists because they have no respect for the Vedas, but those who defy the Vedic conclusions, as above mentioned, under the pretense of being followers of the Vedas, are verily more dangerous than the Buddhists.

 

"SrI VyAsadeva very kindly compiled the Vedic knowledge in his VedAnta-sUtra, but if one hears the commentation of the MAyAvAda school (as represented by the SaGkara-sampradAya) certainly he will be misled on the path of spiritual realization.

 

"The theory of emanations is the beginning subject of the VedAnta-sUtra. All the cosmic manifestations are emanations from the Absolute Personality of Godhead by His inconceivable different energies. The example of the touchstone is applicable to the theory of emanation. The touchstone can convert an unlimited quantity of iron into gold, and still the touchstone remains as it is. Similarly, the Supreme Lord can produce all manifested worlds by His inconceivable energies, and yet He is full and unchanged. He is pUrNa [complete], and although an unlimited number of pUrNas emanate from Him, He is still pUrNa.

 

"The theory of illusion of the MAyAvAda school is advocated on the ground that the theory of emanation will cause a transformation of the Absolute Truth. If that is the case, VyAsadeva is wrong. To avoid this, they have skillfully brought in the theory of illusion. But the world or the cosmic creation is not false, as maintained by the MAyAvAda school. It simply has no permanent existence. A nonpermanent thing cannot be called false altogether. But the conception that the material body is the self is certainly wrong.

 

"PraNava [oM], or the oMkAra in the Vedas, is the primeval hymn. This transcendental sound is identical with the form of the Lord. All the Vedic hymns are based on this praNava oMkAra. Tat tvam asi is but a side word in the Vedic literatures, and therefore this word cannot be the primeval hymn of the Vedas. SrIpAda SaGkarAcArya has given more stress on the side word tat tvam asi than on the primeval principle oMkAra."

 

The Lord thus spoke on the VedAnta-sUtra and defied all the propaganda of the MAyAvAda school.* The BhaTTAcArya tried to defend himself and his MAyAvAda school by jugglery of logic and grammar, but the Lord defeated him by His forceful arguments. He affirmed that we are all related with the Personality of Godhead eternally and that devotional service is our eternal function in exchanging the dealings of our relations. The result of such exchanges is to attain premA, or love of Godhead. When love of Godhead is attained, love for all other beings automatically follows because the Lord is the sum total of all living beings.

 

The Lord said that but for these three items--namely, eternal relation with God, exchange of dealings with Him and the attainment of love for Him--all that is instructed in the Vedas is superfluous and concocted.

 

The Lord further added that the MAyAvAda philosophy taught by SrIpAda SaGkarAcArya is an imaginary explanation of the Vedas, but it had to be taught by him (SaGkarAcArya) because he was ordered to teach it by the Personality of Godhead. In the Padma PurANa it is stated that the Personality of Godhead ordered His Lordship Siva to deviate the human race from Him (the Personality of Godhead). The Personality of Godhead was to be so covered so that people would be encouraged to generate more and more population. His Lordship Siva said to DevI: "In the Kali-yuga, I shall preach the MAyAvAda philosophy, which is nothing but clouded Buddhism, in the garb of a brAhmaNa."</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->The last word from SaGkarAcArya as presented in the purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 4.24.18:

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Even though Lord Siva appeared to preach mayavadi philosophy, at the end of his pastime in the form of Sangkaracarya, he preached the Vaishava philosophy: bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mudha-mate. He stressed worshiping Lord Krsna, or Govinda, three times in this verse and especially warned his followers that they could not possibly achieve deliverance, or mukti, simply by word jugglery and grammatical puzzles. If one is actually serious to attain mukti, he must worship Lord Krsna. That is SrIpada Sagkaracarya's last instruction.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Dandavats to ghari prabhu

[Sarva gattah]

 

going back to the original issue:

 

Puranas speak of Lord Vishnu's abode in this world located on Suparswa Mountain, also described as Vaikunthaloka, and it is near Mount Meru, where the residences (abodes) of the principal Devatas are located. Sometimes that abode is described as situated on a remote island in the northernmost ocean (ocean of milk), Svetadvipa.

 

There are unlimited pastimes like you have explained and therefore we agree that the majority of the marginal living entities or jivas, who are naturally ALL devotees of Krishna in their full potential, never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be compromised or covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious cloud or dream state that all living entities can activate, due to their unique free will and abilty to choose.

 

Such erroneous self centred desires and dreams only place them in the transitory mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. The living entities natural constitution and perpetual position is serving Krishna, or one of His Vishnu tattva expansions in Goloka or Vaikuntha as nitya-siddha.

Therefore most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha. Such inconceivable statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate % of a % in an endless Spiritual creation?

So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine, think or dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY THAT NEVER LEAVES GOLOKA. Most living entities therefore never enter the world of imagination (the mahat-tattva) and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore it is only due to the cloud covering (the baddha-jiva dreaming sub-conscious state of the living entity) we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness.