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Fall verses from padma purana

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vijay

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So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine, think or dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY THAT NEVER LEAVES GOLOKA. Most living entities therefore never enter the world of imagination (the mahat-tattva) and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore it is only due to the cloud covering (the baddha-jiva dreaming sub-conscious state of the living entity) we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

But this is only from the viewpoint of eternity and must be seen in that context. The real problem is that when we hear these things then we must be hearing them from gurudeva or advanced devotees in the context of engaging in sadhana and devotional service under their guidance. These discussions are really just a part of Srimad Bhagavatam class etc. Then of course if we repeat the words that we hear in class or read but what are our real motives? To continuously examine one's own motives for what ever we do in direct or indirect Krsna Consciousness is call atma-niksepa. Srila Sridhar Maharaj called it self-scathing analysis.

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Srila Prabhupada often emphasized the dream-like quality of our mayik existence because it is simply the dreaming condition of the marginal living entity as their secondary non Krishna Conscious jiva-baddha state.

 

Once we awakened to the real spiritual nature of our consciousness, which is eternally in Goloka as nitya-siddha, the dream-like mayik existence created by our baddha-jiva consciousness will dissolve like the sunlight dissipates the darkness

 

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

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1

jiv jago, jiv jago, gauracanda bole

kota nidra jao maya-pisacira kole

2

bhajibo boliya ese samsara-bhitare

bhuliya rohile tumi avidyara bhare

3

tomare loite ami hoinu avatara

ami bina bandhu ara ke ache tomara

4

enechi ausadhi maya nasibaro lagi’

hari-nama maha-mantra lao tumi magi’

5

bhakativinoda prabhu-carane pariya

sei hari-nama-mantra loilo magiya

1) Lord Gauranga is calling, “Wake up, sleeping souls! Wake up, sleeping souls!

How long will you sleep in the lap of the witch called Maya?

 

2) You have forgotten the way of devotional service and are lost in the world of birth and death.

 

3) I have descended just to save you; other than Myself you have no friend in this world.

 

4) I have brought the medicine that will wipe out the disease of illusion from which you are suffering. Take this maha-mantra--Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.”

 

5) Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says: “I fall at the Lord’s feet, having taken this maha-mantra.”

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I would just like to point out that Srila Prabhupada clearly says we in the material condition of existence, is just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position.

There are two states of existence called nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state of is eternally in a Krishna Conscious bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self, while the non-free state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that creates the various dream identities.

The nitya-baddha state is only activated when the marginal living entity or jiva-soul chooses to forget their perpetual original identity as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

This eternal abode of Krishnas is beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the maha-tattva and is the genuine Kingdom of God way beyond the heavenly world within the mahat-tattva (material creation).

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You may point out, I may point out, but each truth has its unique application that only a fully realized devotee knows how to employ. We may point out but the person doing the pointing also needs to be transparent. So this is all part of the disciplic succession. Apani acari.. our actions will speak louder than words and those who have vision and sensitivity will even perceive our real position if they cannot see our behavior; only the immature and the dull will be deceived. The war over this subject is really in our imagination. Talk about a dream reality! But I am just another dreamer struggling with the senses and the mind, so what do I really know? I have heard that the only hope is to serve guru and Vaisnavas and chant the name of Krsna incessantly.

Unfortunately I am failing miserably to apply this.

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Good points Beggar.

 

Anyway, lets continue -

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition". - Letter, June 13, 1970.

Srila Prabhupada - "The conditioned living being has forgotten his eternal relationship with God and he has mistakenly accepted the temporary place of birth as all-in-all... The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." (Sri Isopanisad 11)

Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and ALL spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]

Srila Prabhupada - "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse”. Lecture washington DC Temple 1976

 

I believe its time to go back to the original topic, vijay prabhu's 'Fall verses from padma purana'

Apologies to Vijay for the distraction

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going back to the original issue:

 

Puranas speak of Lord Vishnu's abode in this world located on Suparswa Mountain, also described as Vaikunthaloka, and it is near Mount Meru, where the residences (abodes) of the principal Devatas are located. Sometimes that abode is described as situated on a remote island in the northernmost ocean (ocean of milk), Svetadvipa.

 

Thanks for that Kulapavana Prabhu, do you know of any references where I can find out more about this place?

The original article mentioned one or 2 places about how this abode may be within the maha tatva, but would be nice to find out more.

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Thanks for that Kulapavana Prabhu, do you know of any references where I can find out more about this place?

The original article mentioned one or 2 places about how this abode may be within the maha tatva, but would be nice to find out more.

 

Vishnu Purana (second chapter of second book) mentions Suparswa Mountain, the residence of Lord Vishnu, as one of the four peaks adjacent to Mount Meru. The other three are residences of Indra, Brahma, and Shiva.

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going back to the original issue:

 

Puranas speak of Lord Vishnu's abode in this world located on Suparswa Mountain, also described as Vaikunthaloka, and it is near Mount Meru, where the residences (abodes) of the principal Devatas are located. Sometimes that abode is described as situated on a remote island in the northernmost ocean (ocean of milk), Svetadvipa.

 

Vishnu has two abodes. One is the Ocean of Milk, and it is the place where He reclines on Adi Sesha. All devas have access to this place and it is where they go to seek the Lord's help.

 

Beyond all this, is Vaikuntha. This place is inaccessible even to the Devas. And it is the abode of liberated souls.

 

There was no 'fall'. The jivatma has been in samsara since eternity, and this bondage has no beginning, only an end, when the Jiva attains moksha.

 

It is true that Jaya and Vijaya were cursed and had to come back to samsara. But they weren't in Vaikuntha, but rather, located in Karya Vaikuntha, which is Vishnu Loka. And it has been mentioned that Vishnu Loka is not Vaikuntha, although Vishnu and Narayana are non-different.

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The fall can be conceptualised by the fact that the eternally conditioned living-entities did not realize that they were with Krishna between the destruction and creation of the material world.

 

Of course, because they did not realize they are said to be in the tatastha-region as the realisation is sometimes present and sometimes not.

 

For a purely Krishna-conscious person regardless of whether s/he is physically present either in the material or spiritual world, s/he is always established in pure Krishna-consciousness and hence no "falldown" as such.

 

Hope I have'nt confused..

 

Hare Krishna!

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1.57.16 Vyasadeva: give or construct a water tank (large artificial reservoir for storing water)measuring 20 cubits, go to Visnu's Abode. Afterwards born as king or wealthy man or orator.

1.57.17 if measures 1000 cubits, he doesn't fall from Visnu's heaven. All his sins will be destroyed.

1.57.44 and will obtain the auspicious salvation.

 

1.58 King constructed bridges, dug wells, planted trees did Yajna, Dana and Tapah.

Again before Yama's assembly.Citragupta.."go to Visnu's Abode".

Aeroplane came, went to Visnu's heaven, the great heaven from which returning is difficult.

2.4.1 Goloka, the Heaven of Visnu, beyond darkness, the world of salvation.

 

 

Now, Nofallvadis can't say that there is not sastric evidence of a falldown from the spiritual world. Nofallvadis say that there is no evidence, I guess that they have read all the scriptures (Four Vedas, Upanishad Puranas, etc.) Now no far away in a satvic purana is the evidence. Maybe they will say that this viakunta planet is inside this universe and is posible to fall down, so reading above goloka is in this universe...:eek4:

 

 

 

 

" O beautiful lady, one should know that the Visnu, Naradiya, Bhagavata, Garuda, Padma and Varaha are all in the mode of goodness. The Brahmanda, Brahma-vaivarta, Markandeya, Bhavisya, Vamana and Brahma are in the mode of passion. The Matsya, Kurma, Linga, Siva, Skanda and Agni are in the mode of ignorance."

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Now, Nofallvadis can't say that there is not sastric evidence of a falldown from the spiritual world. Nofallvadis say that there is no evidence, I guess that they have read all the scriptures (Four Vedas, Upanishad Puranas, etc.) Now no far away in a satvic purana is the evidence. Maybe they will say that this viakunta planet is inside this universe and is posible to fall down, so reading above goloka is in this universe...:eek4:

 

 

Actually my position has evolved over the last few months. But I do believe that when Srila Prabhupada wrote in the Bhagavatam purport that "no one falls from Vaikuntha", he was just quoting or paraphrasing a previous commentary. I believe that Srila Prabhupada told three different ideas:

1. That all life comes from the brahmajyoti.

2. That we came down from Vaikuntha.

3. That we are all nitya siddha and therefore already liberated

but that we just have to realize this.

Yet ultimately he took no firm position on ideas 1 and 2 because he knew that they are just ideas expressed in language that has the concepts of material time built in to it. Therefore he used the metaphor of the crow and the tal fruit and showed the concept behind this in the way that he would deal with the origin of the soul issue with his disciples. The only way to please him in this regard is to get passed this issue and not allow it to be devisive. Harmony, divine harmony is the answer. But in our own lives we are so far from that ideal and our defense mechanism is to blame a society or others for our own self-imposed bondage.

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Now, Nofallvadis can't say that there is not sastric evidence of a falldown from the spiritual world. Nofallvadis say that there is no evidence, I guess that they have read all the scriptures (Four Vedas, Upanishad Puranas, etc.) Now no far away in a satvic purana is the evidence. Maybe they will say that this viakunta planet is inside this universe and is posible to fall down, so reading above goloka is in this universe..

 

<CENTER><CENTER>Chapter 15. The Yoga of the Supreme Person</CENTER>

 

TEXT 6

na tad bhasayate suryo

na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

SYNONYMS

 

na--not; tat--that; bhasayate--illuminates; suryah--the sun; na--nor; sasankah--the moon; na--nor; pavakah--fire, electricity; yat--where; gatva--going; na--never; nivartante--comes back; tat dhama--that abode; paramam--supreme; mama--My.

 

TRANSLATION

 

That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world. </CENTER>----

 

 

So, obviously, Krsna must be lying to Arjuna when He says: "One who reaches My abode never returns to this material world" ?

 

If the abode of Vishnu described in Padma Purana just refers to the abode of Vishnu within this universe (and yes, Lord Vishnu has 2 such abodes and it is quite concievable that He lives there with all kinds of servants and associates, just like it is customary in the heavenly planets) that this riddle is easily solved.

 

 

<!-- / message -->

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Actually my position has evolved over the last few months. But I do believe that when Srila Prabhupada wrote in the Bhagavatam purport that "no one falls from Vaikuntha", he was just quoting or paraphrasing a previous commentary. I believe that Srila Prabhupada told three different ideas:

 

1. That all life comes from the brahmajyoti.

 

2. That we came down from Vaikuntha.

 

3. That we are all nitya siddha and therefore already liberated

but that we just have to realize this.

 

Yet ultimately he took no firm position on ideas 1 and 2 because he knew that they are just ideas expressed in language that has the concepts of material time built in to it. Therefore he used the metaphor of the crow and the tal fruit and showed the concept behind this in the way that he would deal with the origin of the soul issue with his disciples. The only way to please him in this regard is to get passed this issue and not allow it to be devisive. Harmony, divine harmony is the answer. But in our own lives we are so far from that ideal and our defense mechanism is to blame a society or others for our own self-imposed bondage.

 

Very nice understanding however, he did say we came down from Vaikuntha many millions of years ago

 

Number 1. Many are suggesting we fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the Brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light which is actually a deposit of unlimited baddha-jiva souls in the dormant or dreamless ‘dream’ status of consciousness, only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the Brahmajyoti? Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the Brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

 

Number 2. Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on August 6, 1973 ...73/08/06 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.6

 

Number 3. Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

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Very nice understanding however, he did say we came down from Vaikuntha many millions of years ago

 

Number 1. Many are suggesting we fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the Brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea.

I dont' believe that he rejected this idea for it is told in the sastras and in certain places he has repeated this in his books when appropriate. But his point made in several letters was that a.) things are seen differently from the eternal viewpoint of Vaikuntha, and b.) the bramhajyoti or tatastha origin paradigm cannot answer all questions and can be defeated by logic.

 

Number 2. Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on August 6, 1973 ...73/08/06 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.6

The Vaikuntha origins paradigm can also be defeated by logic. If Maya has no influence in Vaikuntha how would anyone be allured to enjoy separately from Krsna? This is one contradiction. There are more and both Number 1 and Number 2 can be established or defeated by logical argument, hence the crow and tal fruit example. No Gaudiya Math or traditional Gaudiyas have espoused the Vaikuntha origins paradigm but I believe that Srila Prabhupada used it to illustrate "crow and tal fruit logic". Remember although Srila Sridhar Maharaj used the tatsatha origins paradigm, he also preached "Back to Godhead" in his talks. He also preached Number 3 which I am quoting next.

 

 

Number 3. Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

All our acaryas accept this (Number 3) and because it does not describe the origin of the jiva which is in itself contradictory because the jiva is really eternal like the Lord. So since Number 3 doesn't deal with the origin concept but rather the eternal present it is a different kind of presentation entirely. After reading so many quotes of Srila Prabhupada that have recently come to light and looking at the explanations of jiva tattva in Jaiva Dharma I have come to this conclusion which I believe harmonizes each aspect.

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  • 1 month later...

 

The Vaikuntha origins paradigm can also be defeated by logic. If Maya has no influence in Vaikuntha how would anyone be allured to enjoy separately from Krsna? .

 

Maya has nothing to do with it because she does not exist in that role in Vaikuntha.

 

The answer is quite simple - it is the choice of the living entity, it is free will, the ability to be with Krishna as their eternal nitya-siddha body (who they really are) or drop out and do their own thing with the provisions provided by Krishna's expansion Maha-Vishnu

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Jaiva Dharma

Chapt. Seven

 

Candidasa: O great soul, I cannot understand your explanation very well. I have understood that we were pure entities, and that due to our forgetfulness of Krsna we have fallen into the hands of maya, and are bound in this world. If we obtain Krsna’s mercy, we can be delivered again; otherwise we will remain in the same condition.

Ananta dasa: Yes, for now it is sufficient for you to believe this much. Yadava dasa Mahasaya clearly understands all these truths. Gradually you will come to understand these things from him. Sri Jagadananda, has written a beautiful description of the variegated conditions of the jivas in his book Sri Prema-vivarta (6.1-13).

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cit-kana – jiva, krsna – cinmaya bhaskara

 

 

 

 

nitya krsne dekhi – krsne karena adara

 

 

 

 

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga-vancha kare

 

 

 

 

nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

 

 

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The jiva is an infinitesimal particle of spiritual consciousness, like an atomic

particle of light emanating from the sun. Sri is the complete spiritual consciousness,

the transcendental sun. As long as jivas focus their attention on Krsna, they maintain

reverence for Him. However, when they turn their attention away from Krsna, they desire material enjoyment. Krsna’s deluding potency, maya, who is standing near them, then binds them in her embrace.1

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pisaci paile jena mati-cchana haya

 

 

 

 

maya-grasta jivera haya se bhava udaya

 

 

 

 

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The dharma of the jiva who has turned away from Krsna becomes covered, just as a person’s intelligence becomes covered when he is haunted by a witch.

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1 There are two types of entities: cetana, animate, and jada, inanimate. Animate entities are those that have desire and the power to experience, and inanimate entities are those that do not. There are also two types of animate entities: those who possess full consciousness (purna-cetana) and those who possess minute consciousness (ksudra-cetana). Bhagavan possesses full consciousness, and in His original feature He is Krsna. This is declared in Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.3.28) by the statement, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam: “Krsna is the original Bhagavan.” The jives possess minute consciousness. They are His separated parts, known as vibhinnamsa-tattva, and they are innumerable. The sastras have compared the mutual relationship between Sri Krsna and the jivas to the relationship that exists between the sun and the infinitesimal glittering particles of light present in the sun’s rays. Bhagavan Sri Krsna is the spiritual sun and the jivas are infinitesimal particles of spirit. The dharma or sva-bhava of the infinitesimal jivas is to serve Krsna. When the jivas are formed, their dharma is born simultaneously, just as in fire the power to burn is always present. As the existence of fire cannot be accepted without burning power, the essence of the individual soul’s identity as a jiva is not established without service to Krsna. A vastu (substance) cannot exist independently of its dharma (natural characteristic function), and neither can a function

exist independently of its substance. Nonetheless, a substance and its function can become perverted. The inherent function of the jiva is certainly to serve Krsna, but when the jiva is indifferent to Krsna, and covets different types of sensual enjoyment, Bhagavan’s external potency (bahiranga-sakti or maya), which is situated nearby, seizes him and binds him in her web.

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ami siddha krsna-dasa, ei katha bhule

 

 

 

 

mayara naphara hana cira-dina bule

 

 

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He forgets Bhagavan’s identity, and his own identity as a servant of Hari.

Becoming a slave of maya, he wanders hereand there for a long time in

this bewildering material existence.

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kabhu raja, kabhu praja, kabhu vipra, sudra

 

 

 

 

kabhu duhkhi, kabhu sukhi, kabhu kita ksudra

 

 

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Sometimes he is a king and sometimes a subject, sometimes a brahmana

and sometimes a sudra. Sometimes he is happy and sometimes distressed,

and sometimes he is a tiny insect.

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kabhu svarge, kabhu martye, narake va kabhu

 

 

 

 

kabhu deva, kabhu daitya, kabhu dasa, prabhu

 

 

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Sometimes he is in heaven, sometimes on earth, and sometimes in hell.

Sometimes he is a deva and sometimes a demon. Sometimes he is a

servant and sometimes a master.

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ei-rupe samsara bhramite kona jana

 

 

 

 

sadhu-sange nija-tattva avagata hana

 

 

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As he is wandering like this throughout material existence, if by some

great fortune he happens to obtain the association of pure bhaktas, he

comes to know of his own identity, and his life thus becomes meaningful.

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nija-tattva jani ara samsara na caya

 

 

 

 

kena va bhajinu maya kare haya haya

 

 

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By his association with those bhaktas, he understands his true identity

and becomes indifferent to material enjoyment. Grieving bitterly for his

predicament, he laments, “Alas! Alas! Why did I serve maya for so long?”

 

 

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kande bole, ohe krsna! ami tava dasa

 

 

 

 

tomara carana chadi’ haila sarva-nasa

 

 

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He cries profusely, and prays at the lotus feet of Bhagavan. “O Krsna!

I am Your eternal servant, but I have been ruined because I disregarded

the service of Your feet. Who knows how long I have been wandering

aimlessly as the slave of maya?

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kakuti kariya krsne dake eka-bara

 

 

 

 

krpa kari krsna tare chadana samsara

 

 

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“O Patita-pavana! O Dina-natha! Please protect this destitute soul. Deliver

me from Your maya and engage me in Your service.” Sri Krsna is an ocean

of mercy, and when He hears the jiva cry out in such desperation even once,

He quickly transports him across this insurmountable material energy.

 

 

mayake pichane rakhi’ krsna-pane caya

 

 

 

 

bhajite bhajite krsna-pada-padma paya

 

 

 

 

krsna tare dena nija-cic-chaktira bala

 

 

 

 

maya akarsana chade haiya durbala

 

 

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Krsna empowers the jiva with His cit-sakti, so that maya’s power to

attract the soul gradually wanes. The jiva thenturns his back on maya

and desires to attain Krsna. Heworships Krsna again and again, and finally

becomes competent to attain His lotus feet.

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‘sadhu-sange krsna-nama’–ei-matra cai

 

 

 

 

samsara jinite ara kona vastu nai

 

 

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Therefore, the only infallible method to cross this insurmountable

material existence is to chant krsna-nama in the association of bhaktas.

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This is also, I think, a problem for the Advaita Vada although the question is phrased a little differently. Here it is asked how it is that the absolute Brahman finds itself to be in a state of avidya and indeed whether avidya is Brahman. We are taught that we misidentify our own existence; we are Brahman but we conceive ourselves to be that which is not Brahman. But where did this illusion come from, how can it arise and why does it do so? I was listening to a very learned pandit from the Shankara Math lecturing on this subject and he said it was a subject that could not be known.

 

And in a sense the present debate is parallel, albeit in a Vaishnava sort of way.

 

Kimfelix, the idea of "fall from Vaikuntha" is not a problem in Vaishnava philosophy. Simply put, there is no "fall from Vaikuntha" as the vedAnta-sUtras state that the living entity's karmas are beginningless.

 

It is important not to confuse certain iskcon ideas with mainstream vedantic Vaishnavaism.

 

The inability of Advaitins to explain the reality of avidya, mAyA, etc is a major problem for them. If Brahman alone exists, then what is mAyA? Never mind that, they say. Nothing can be said about it. It neither exists nor does not exist, etc.

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The idea of "fall from Vaikuntha" is not a problem in Vaishnava philosophy. Simply put, there is no "fall from Vaikuntha"

 

Yes, that is exactly right as very clearly explained as follows

 

Here are the facts

 

Srila Prabhupada has actually told us that Acintyah means inconceivable though the way to understand the apparent existence and paradox of both the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness existing at the same time, is by understanding the nitya-siddha is the original state of the marginal living entity, while nitya baddha is ones dreaming non Krishna conscious imagination, meaning it is real, but temporary.

The nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna. The nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness, which is the secondary conscious condition that ALL living entities can activate, on the other hand, finds its only reality within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the jiva-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels, so the baddha-jiva can actively act out their nonsensical dreams within His mahat-tattva or material creation.

Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

SrilaPrabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave. That dream state consciousness is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha conscious consciousness.

 

In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka and can foolishly choose to come down to the material world at any in in a dream state but factually we do not go anywhere, we only 'think' we do

Srila Prabhupada - ""The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world. Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28 54.

Srila Prabhupada - "If you fall down from the platform, then it is your fault. Just like we are all in the Vaikuntha planet. Now, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, "Go back to home, back to Godhead." Lecture Srimad-Bhagavatam 1975 750522SB.MEL

Srila Prabhupada - “We have given up the company of Krsna, and we wanted to be happy in this material world. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972 720928SB.LA

Srila Prabhupada - “So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment”. Washington D.C., July 8, 1976 760708ED.WDC

Srila Prabhupada - "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer." Also: "The vibbhinamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

The impersonal Brahman effulgence is full of jiva-baddha's in a dormant non-active dreamless state.

It is a temporary state for the jiva-baddha consciousness while inactive or free from the temporary bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

However this jiva baddha condition is actually the secondary conscious projection of the living entity.

This rebellious jiva-baddha non Krishna conscious condition is a sub-conscious state of the living entity that only manifests when they choose to not serve Krishna and instead chase their own delusional desires for pleasure that instantaneously places one's awareness within the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

As soon as the living entity chooses to withdrawals into to their baddha-jiva sub-conscious altered dreaming state, due to choosing to forget Krishna, they simultaneously forget their eternal nitya-siddha body and Krishna.

Instead, they now live within their own imaginary thoughts and dreams that place their sub-consciousness (nitya-baddha or baddha jiva lower self) within the mahat-tattva dreaming creation of Maha-Vishnu.

They can stay in this dream mahat-tattva creation for an almost eternity if they desire.

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How does one perform Lakshmi Vrata?

 

http://www.aryabhatt.com/fast_fair_festival/Fasts/VaraLakshmiVrata.htm

 

http://www.netglimse.com/holidays/diwali/how_to_do_diwali_lakshmi_puja.shtml

 

Actually everything is there within the Hare Krsna Mantra. In 1974 I used to perform puja every morning to the Ganesha Deity in Melbourne with Ugrahshava dasa. At the time I was also dressing the small Radha Krishna Dieties in Melbourne.

 

When Prabhupada found out we were also doing puja to Ganesha, when he arrived for the 74 Rathayatra, he called me into his room with Jayadharma Prabhu (national manager of Spiritual Sky incense)

 

Prabhupada explained that there is no need to worship Ganesha, everything is there in worshiping Raha and Krishna as well as Lord Caitanya because He is the combination of 'YOUR BELOVED RADHA AND HER BELOVED KRISHNA, who are the source from where ALL the vishnu-tattva and Demigods like Ganesha (jiva-tattva) are empowered from

 

Lord Caitanya is the highest and most loving form of both Radha and Krishna because in that form of Caitanya, they are combined in the most intense love and devotion

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You have been really fortunate Sarva to have experienced such service...

 

I feel that Sri Sri Gaura-Nitaai at Melbourne mandir are the most beautiful I have seen so far.

 

I used to have a very nice photo of Srila Prabhupada installing them with an abhisheka. Were you there then? Do you have that photo? Or memory?

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I have not been following these discussions about fall of jiva over the last few years:

 

Here is my small realization that has awoken within through contemplation-

 

I am situated as tatashtha shakti. And always will be. Dependant upon the eternally liberated souls for my full actualization in service. When I forgot that constitutional dependancy I fell.

 

It is inconceivable to put a time frame on when I forgot that dependancy and why exactly. Therefore it has been explained that I am eternally conditioned.

 

It is inconceivable that if I simply choose to serve - and not offend that higher platform - instantly I will be re-instated as if I never left. Waking up from the dream of my own deceit.

 

In simple naieve realization, when I first felt I was a miniscule ray in the tatastha shakti - I felt despondent. And asked why? Why am I not a particle of the superior shakti?

Over the course of my conditioned state in this bodily consciousness, I have began to realize the glories of Sri Krsna's diverse shaktis. The diversity of the Supreme Personality. I have realized that nirvisesa liberation was devoid of that diverse shakti and not satisfying - lacking rasa. And I have come to rejoice that I am of marginal potency. Whose constitution is to be dependant upon the Divine Beauty of the internal potency.

 

Infact God's beauty and the mystery that entails that beauty, is so exquisite and inconceivable; that all his shaktis are perfect and complete. Including me. The inadequacy of realizing I am marginal ray potency has since left my heart - by God's grace.

 

Is this heretical siddhanta?

Does Iskcon follow this?

I don't know?

Maybe I will understand more in due course.:pray:

The lesson I need to learn know is freedom from vaisnava aparadha - once that is learnt I will instantly awaken as a dependant servant of the higher realm again. Matured and steadier.

 

* I feel the Lord's shaktis are eternal, just as He is eternal. Of which I am a particle of...

How wonderful is the Complete Absolute Whole Personality of Godhead? Inconceivable!

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Srila Prabhupada - “We have given up the company of Krsna' date=' and we wanted to be happy in this material world. [i']Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972 720928SB.LA

Srila Prabhupada - “So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment”. Washington D.C., July 8, 1976 760708ED.WDC

Srila Prabhupada - "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer." Also: "The vibbhinamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

The impersonal Brahman effulgence is full of jiva-baddha's in a dormant non-active dreamless state.

It is a temporary state for the jiva-baddha consciousness while inactive or free from the temporary bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

However this jiva baddha condition is actually the secondary conscious projection of the living entity.

This rebellious jiva-baddha non Krishna conscious condition is a sub-conscious state of the living entity that only manifests when they choose to not serve Krishna and instead chase their own delusional desires for pleasure that instantaneously places one's awareness within the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

As soon as the living entity chooses to withdrawals into to their baddha-jiva sub-conscious altered dreaming state, due to choosing to forget Krishna, they simultaneously forget their eternal nitya-siddha body and Krishna.

Instead, they now live within their own imaginary thoughts and dreams that place their sub-consciousness (nitya-baddha or baddha jiva lower self) within the mahat-tattva dreaming creation of Maha-Vishnu.

 

They can stay in this dream mahat-tattva creation for an almost eternity if they desire.

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Fall or no fall - it's all illusion.

 

Interesting video on how it is proven that our perception is an illusion.

 

Holographic Universe (Part 1 of 2 ) its all illusion.

 

<embed src="

" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425">

 

Holographic Universe ( Part 2 0f 2 ) its all illusion

 

 

 

<embed src="

" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425">

 

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