Is Lord Shiva a demi-god?

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Definitely not!

Lord Shiva is NOT a demigod. The Brhad Bhagavatamrita explains that to do so would be the greatest offense. No one can ever attain the position of Lord Shiva, although they can attain the position of Lord Brahma.

Kulapavana prabhu's answer is wonderful.

 

So is yours, Indulekhaji. You can always be counted upon to make a refreshing addition to pre-existing points in any discussion.

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

[GODSEED]

 

 

 

SHREERÄDHÄKÅÑËACHAITANYÄY NAMAH

 

 

 

SHREECHAITANYA MAHÄPRABHAVE NAMAH

 

 

 

SHREENITYÄNANDA PRABHAVE NAMAH

 

 

 

SHREESHIVASHIVÄY NAMAH

 

 

 

JAY JAY SHREENITYÄNANDA PRABHAVE NAMAH

 

 

 

JAY JAY SHREEBHAGAVAD BHAKTA VRUNDA...

 

 

Many people are offended by the word 'demigod.' But surely, except Vishnu, no one can be Supreme. There cannot be 'two' supreme entities. So Shiva is NOT supreme, even though the word demigod may not be palatable to some. So a better choice would be 'devata.' Anyway, here is the episode which clearly shows that even Shiva is under Narayana's control.<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 24pt; HEIGHT: 24pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"></v:shape>

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.12.27tām anvagacchad bhagavān

bhavaḥ pramuṣitendriyaḥ

kāmasya ca vaśaḿ nītaḥ

kareṇum iva yūthapaḥ

SYNONYMS

tām — Her; anvagacchat — followed; bhagavān — Lord Śiva; bhavaḥ — known as Bhava; pramuṣita-indriyaḥ — whose senses were agitated; kāmasya — of lusty desires; ca — and; vaśam — victimized; nītaḥ — having become; kareṇum — a female elephant; iva — just as; yūthapaḥ — a male elephant.

TRANSLATION

His senses being agitated, Lord Śiva, victimized by lusty desires, began to follow Her, just as a lusty elephant follows a she-elephant.

--

All this doesn't mean Shiva isn't worthy of worship. On the contrary, one must worship Shiva to bless us with a pure mind, a mind that can focus on Vishnu with perfect attention. But to worship him as supreme is certainly an offense, at least sheer stupidity, according to Vishnu Himself. Here's the relevant verse:

------

Bhagavad-gītā 7.23

antavat tu phalaḿ teṣāḿ

tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām

devān deva-yajo yānti

mad-bhaktā yānti mām api

SYNONYMS

anta-vat — perishable; tu — but; phalam — fruit; teṣām — their; tat — that; bhavati — becomes; alpa-medhasām — of those of small intelligence; devān — to the demigods; deva-yajaḥ — the worshipers of the demigods; yānti — go; mat — My; bhaktāḥ — devotees; yānti — go; mām — to Me; api — also.

TRANSLATION

Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

--

Hopefully, people can see the light.<v:shape id=_x0000_i1026 style="WIDTH: 24pt; HEIGHT: 24pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"></v:shape>

>Lord SadäShiva is a SHREEKRSHNASvarüpa, not a demigod…

try to understand with simple, human logic...that the demigods have a limited life span and with the cosmic annihilation they also are submerged in the Mahodar of Lord ShreeMahäVishnujee!

Now, i hope, you must be knowing that LordShiva is the ONE, under Whose supervision, the cosmic annihilation is carried out!

now, even a child can understand that to carry out the function, one has to last through out the function until its finished, if a child dies before finishing its painting, then the painting is not finished, similarly, LordShiva's suprevision carries out the annihilation of infinite number of material plantets. so, how can a demigod carry out annihilation inwhich it also has to die as a part of its procedure?

this proves that Bhagavän SadäShiva is not a demigod (at least!).

Moreover, as Bhagvän ShreeKrshna, reveals in Shreemad Bhagavad Geetäjee that,

 

 

 

 

Bhagavad-gītā 7.23

 

 

 

antavat

tu phalaḿ teṣāḿ

 

 

 

 

tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām

 

 

 

 

devān deva-yajo yānti

 

 

 

mad-

bhaktā yānti mām api

 

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

 

 

 

anta-vat — perishable; tu — but; phalam — fruit; teṣām — their; tat — that; bhavati — becomes; alpa-medhasām — of those of small intelligence; devān — to the demigods; deva-yajaḥ — the worshipers of the demigods; yānti — go; mat — My; bhaktāḥ — devotees; yānti — go; mām — to Me; api — also.

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

The shloka clearly states ‘their fruits are limited’, but Lord ShreeSadäShiva bestows a qualified soul with the KrshnaPrema, what about that?

Moreover, Bhagavän ShreeChaitanya Mahäprabhu HIMSELF, worships LORD SHIVA (of course, to teach us fallen souls), by composing a sweet Shiväshtakam, appeared in ShreeMuräri Guptajee’s ShreeChaitanya Charita Mahäkävya (3.8). Now, Why would Mr. Mahä-Vadänyäya, teach us to do this?

Now, can anyone name a single demigod viz. Indra deva, Väyu deva, Agni-deva and others has ever given anyone Devotion towards Bhagavä ShreeKRSHNA's LotusFeet?

Lord Shankar Becomes a Shiväni Gopee…and it also is the Protector of ShreeVrindävana Dhäma and ShreeDhäma Navadveep and Shree Varsänä Dhäma also!

ShreeVrishshabänujee actually, Just like Lord Janaka is a great Shaiva! You have any info about that, dont post offensive threads or u’ll soon be under the hellish realm!

Lord ShreSadäShiva has the Power to bestow upon any qualified soul the Pure Devotion!

HE is the one Who Invited LordShreeChaitanya to the hellish world of earth planet!

if ya don’t know, dont commit blunders or the nämäparpädha will ruin ya.

HE is KRSHNASvarüpa, and has accepted the poison to save the Universe!

>ShreeMohini Rüpa, is divine as it is ShreeNäräyana’s Rüpa: So Its no wonder that the ONE, who effortlessly conquered käma by Killing Kämadeva, lost all HIS control at the very sight of the Divine Form of Shreematee Mohini Devee jee out HIS shuddha Prema for Her (Lord ShreeHari).

One may refer to ShreeRäma Charita Mänasa (Tulaseedäsajee) ShreeBäla Kända 83.89, where is it has been stated, how käma deva tried to vainly test ShreeSadäShiva but eventually got burnt by Lord SadäShiva’s Grace.

Then, how can u try to accuse LordSadäShiva of having been agitated at the sight of ShreeMohini Rüpa,

because u thought ShreeMohini Rüpa is transcendental so, its rightly said in Shreemad Bhägavatam 8.12.27 the ShreeSadäShiva’s senses were agitated due to seeing the Mohini Rüpa, but foolish souls under three modes of material nature, cannot understand that ShreeMohini Devee is Divine Rüpa of ShreeNäräyana Prabhujee. So its no wonder, that Lord Shiva, who killed and burned the käma-deva, the demigod in chage or mundane sex affairs, to ashes, as that käma deva tried to test Lord SadäShiva, Looses all HIS control for HER (Bhagavän ShreeNÄRÄYANA)

that u are surely bewildered by the illusory energy as u r blind do see ShreeHara as ShreeHari...

the fallacy: a lotta so called vaishnavas and a lotta so called shaivas suffer from a miopic disease that ShreHari and ShreeHara are different and impose upon them and others that their Lord is the supreme. but such foolish and bigotic appraoch makes them ever trail behind their flight of fantacy.

The Truth: ShreeHari and ShreeHara are the Same SupremeBhagavän. But ShreeKrshna is the Ädi Purusha, and to supervise various principle functions HE dons different Rüpas. Lord Shiva is one of such Svarüpa. He is Eternal, Omnipotent, and Bhagavän (better bother to read Shiva Puräna, with open mind!) Moreover, the sweet Leeläs that ShreeKRSHNA has revelaed are not exhibited by any of HIS other Svarüpas viz.ShreeRäma, ShreeSadäShiva...

Some of Infinite Evidential Testimony: actually their infinite Evidences in the Shästras that Hari is Hara, but stating the two, that ignorant me has come across, are:

>Padma Puräna: swarga khanda, 87.19-21, here Lord ShreeKrshna HIMSELF reveals that whosoever tries to differentiate between HIM and LordShiva is surely chasing the darkest reagion of hell.

>Garga Samhitä, 39.23-24: the same is meant here also by the Supreme BhagavänShreeKRSHNA.

>ShreeRäma charita mänasa: here Lord ShreeRäma, time and again, states that those who approach ME without worshipping ShreeHARA are not approaching ME sincerely! and the same is stated by ShreeHara, (to offensive Shaivas) that those who approach ME without worshipping SHREEHARI are not approaching ME sincerely!

>there are infinite others that u cant expect a fool like me to know.

speaking for Gaudiya Vaishnavism...

one may refere to ShreeJeeva Gosvämeejee's ShreeBhävänuväda teekä on Brahma Samhitä ch 5.45, I don’t know if ya are qualified to see this teekä, I’m certainly not, but still it is posted here to save fallen souls from falling further by gliding under such great misconceptions…

 

refer to two attachemnts about the Very important and significant shlola 45 of the 5th chapter of ShreeBrahma Samhitä

> from SHREELA JEEVA GOSVÄMEE Pabhupädajee's Teekä (ShreeBhävänuväda)

and Shreela Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvateejee's Teekä

 

Thus,Lord Shiva is not a separate Godhead, HE is Godhead but not Seperate or Independant of ShreeKRHSN, which further expostulates that They are ONE!

So u r suggested not cultivate further nämäparäda by believing that LordShiva is merely a demigod or a Mahäyogee, or Vaishnava!

In The Neela Rudra Upanishad, Lord ShreeNäräyan is addressed in the following way:

O Lord, for Your Devotees You Become the Supreme Lord Shankar and For your personal Intimate Beings, You are ShreeNäräyana.

Anyway, pls. forgive me for my impudence, but don’t harbor such offensive thoughts in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>ur</st1:place></st1:City> mind!

SHREENITÄIIGAURAHARIBOL

Çré Brahma Saàhitä (Çréla Jéva Gosväméjé's öékä, Bhävänuväda) 5.45.pdf

ÇRÉ BRAHM SAMHITÄ 5.45 (Créla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvatéjé).pdf

[indulekhadasi]

 

So is yours, Indulekhaji. You can always be counted upon to make a refreshing addition to pre-existing points in any discussion.

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

 

Thank you, LoveroftheBhagavata prabhuji!

Since Mahesha Dhama is not under the Viraja river (river that separates the material world and spiritual world) there is no birth, death, old age and disease in Mahesha Dhama. Therefore we can understand that Lord Shiva is eternal. The devatas are not eternal. So how can we say Lord Shiva is a devata?

[cbrahma]

 

Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum Krishna to have sixty-four principal attributes. All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But Shri Krishna is the possessor of the attributes cent percent. And His personal

expansions such as svayam-prakasa, tad-ekatma up to the categories of the avataras who are all vishnu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes. Lord Siva, who is neither avatara nor avesa nor in between them, possesses almost eighty-four percent of the attributes.(sb

1.3.28)

 

 

Brahma-samhita (5.45) offers an analogy: "When milk is transformed by acids into yogurt, the yogurt is neither the same as nor different from the milk. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda [Krishna, Vishnu], of whom Lord Shiva is a transformation for performing the work of destruction."

[Beggar]

 

...So how can we say Lord Shiva is a devata?

 

 

Dash-Vidha-Nama-Aparadha by Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaj

 

Ten Offenses To Be Avoided

 

Verse Two:

brajendranandana krishna sarveshvareshvar

maheshvar adi tar sevana-tatpar

nama-cintamani krishna-caitanya-swarup

bhedajñan na koribe lila-guna-rup

 

The son of the king of Braja, the lord of lords, Sri Krishna is served by all the Devas, headed by Maheshvar Shiva and is always superior to them. The divine form of the name of Krishna is non-different from him, as are his qualities, pastimes, associates and divine form and should never be considered to be separate from him.

 

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[Kulapavana]

Is that a lingam or a salagrama in that photo, Beggar-ji? Looks like lingam to me... is Tulasi ever offered to Lord Shiva?

[Kulapavana]

 

So how can we say Lord Shiva is a devata?

 

In many places in Vedic writings even Lord Vishnu is included among the devatas. that word refers to a category of higher beings

[indulekhadasi]

 

Is that a lingam or a salagrama in that photo, Beggar-ji? Looks like lingam to me... is Tulasi ever offered to Lord Shiva?

 

No. Once during an interesting pastime, Tulasi was put at the feet of Lord Shiva. She cried that she didn't like these feet

Of course these are all transcendental pastimes. But generally we offer bilva leaves at the feet of Lord Shiva.

[indulekhadasi]

 

In many places in Vedic writings even Lord Vishnu is included among the devatas. that word refers to a category of higher beings

 

Bhaktivinoda thakura says:

 

tava icchā-mato brahmā korena sṛjana

tava icchā-mato viṣnu korena pālana

tava icchā-mate śiva korena saḿhāra

tava icchā-mate māyā sṛje kārāgāra

 

According to Your will Lord Brahma creates, and according to Your will Lord Visnu maintains. According to Your will Lord Siva destroys, and according to Your will Maya constructs the prison house of this world.

Yes, everything you said is correct. What my main point was is that Lord Shiva is NOT a demigod.

[Beggar]

 

Is that a lingam or a salagrama in that photo, Beggar-ji?

Or could it be a salagrama worshipped as a lingam? I'm not sure. Muralidhar Prabhu would know: http://www.mandala.com.au

[Kulapavana]

 

Once during an interesting pastime, Tulasi was put at the feet of Lord Shiva. She cried that she didn't like these feet

Of course these are all transcendental pastimes. But generally we offer bilva leaves at the feet of Lord Shiva.

 

Nice story. Thank you.

[Kulapavana]

"There are various explanations as to why the linga represents Shiva. According to the Vamana Purana, after Sati's death, Shiva went to mourn in the forest. Seeing the virile god, the wives of the sages living in the forest were enamoured and followed Shiva around. Enraged, the sages cursed Shiva, causing his phallus to fall off. The moment it touched the ground, his phallus started growing. Soon the earth, unable to support its weight, began quivering. When Brahma and Vishnu realised why the earth was shaking, they requested Shiva to take back his phallus. Shiva consented to do so on the condition that the sages worshipped his phallus. He pronounced that nothing would be impossible for one who worshipped the Shivalinga.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="1%" align=right border=0><TBODY><TR></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The Linga Purana says that Brahma and Vishnu were once arguing over who was the supreme being. Suddenly, there appeared Sivalinga before them a huge column of fire. Both of them decided to find one end each. Whoever returned first would be acknowledged as supreme. Vishnu assumed the form of a boar and dug into the earth. Brahma, in the form of a swan, flew upwards. They searched for days but in vain. Then Shiva appeared in the fiery column. Brahma and Vishnu realised their mistake and acknowledged Shiva as the Supreme Being. The Shivalinga represents that column of fire Jyotirlinga"

http://www.gurjari.net/ico/Mystica/html/shivalinga.htm

[kimfelix]

The same story is told by the Shiva Purana. There it explains that the linga represents Shiva in his ultimate nirguna identity; therefore it has not characteristic features. When Shiva takes the saguna form of Rudra he is represented by a murti, but linga worship is preferred because it represents Shiva in his highest form.

[raghu]

 

In the Shvetashvatara Upanishad, the Shiva Purana, the Linga Purana and the teachings of the Shaiva Acharyas such as Meykandar Shivam it is established that Shiva is the Supreme Deity.

 

In the Mahabharata both Shiva and Vishnu are revealed as the Supreme Deity and in some passages Krishna is shown to be a devotee of Shiva. In the Nara-Narayaniya Parvan of the Mahabharata's Shanti Parvan (Book 12) Narayana Rishi says to Bhagavan Shiva, yas tvam vetti sa mam vetti yas tvam anu sa mam anu, navayor antaram kimcit, 'One who knows you knows me as well, one who follows you follows me; there is no difference at all between us.'

 

So the matter is a complex one and different texts seem to give different versions on this matter. There are many indications in various scriptures that Shiva is the Supreme Deity. Sometimes the statements appear sectarian, establishing Shiva as superior to Vishnu, and sometimes they are syncretist, revealing Shiva and Vishnu as two aspects of the same deity. And of course there are also sectarian statements from the Vaishnava perspective establishing Vishnu's supremacy over Shiva.

 

Rig Veda 7.40.5 states that Rudra gets his "rudratva" from worship of Vishnu. This is a mainstream shruti which places Shiva's status below that of Vishnu's, since parabrahman depends on nothing else.

 

The Svetashvatara addresses Brahman by names classically associated with Shiva, but from context one can easily interpret those references as being Vishnu. Even the Vishnu Sahasranama includes some of these names.

 

Many smritis (i.e. Shiva Purana, Linga Purana) may give unmistakeable preference for shiva, but even smritis cannot overrule the conclusions of shruti. Many smritis like Mahabharata have interpolations. There are some recensions that speak of Romans, etc. for example. Then again it is strange that on one hand Mahabharata is acceptable pramana for Shaivites but Bhagavad-gita which is part of Mahabharata for some reason is not. Shiva Purana is acceptable but Vishnu Purana is not. There must be some rationale for this arbitrary picking and choosing of pramanas.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Just read Shiva-tattva by Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, everything will be clarified.

[kimfelix]

Raghu, what is the context on the Shvetashvatara Upanishad that leads one to suppose that where it names Shiva it really means Vishnu? If it had been the other way round and Vishnu had been named would you not have claimed it as conclusive evidence from the shruti that Vishnu is the Supreme Deity?

 

And can you dismiss any passage from the Mahabharata as interpolation just because it does not fit with what one would like to be there? All of these passages have been accepted by the critical editors who ruled out many others as interpolations.

 

My point is that there is just as much evidence from shruti and smriti to show that Shiva is supreme as there is to show that Vishnu is supreme. One might therefore conclude that both Vishnu and Shiva are the Supreme Deity, otherwise one has to say that a text means Vishnu when it says Shiva and that passages of the Mahabharata should be rejected on no other grounds than that they do not confirm my own beliefs.

[Shakti-Fan]

<table class="contentpaneopen"><tbody><tr><td class="contentheading" width="100%"> Granting Perfect Love </td> <td class="buttonheading" align="right" width="100%">

</td> <td class="buttonheading" align="right" width="100%">

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> LORD Shiva'S HIGHEST BENEDICTION

 

By Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja ... Lord Shiva eternally resides in Lord Krishna’s abode, Vrindavana, where he manifests many forms to render devotional services to Him. The form of Gopishvara Mahadeva was manifested by Lord Krishna’s desire. When Krishna desired to perform His Rasa dance, Srimati Radhika, the embodiment of His pleasure potency, manifested from His left side and Gopishvara Mahadeva manifested from His right side. The form of Shiva who lives in Kashi or Kailash in the material world is a partial manifestation of the original SadaShiva in Vrindavana. The many other commonly worshiped forms of Lord Shiva are expansions of SadaShiva. They are not the original. Partial expansions such as Pippaleshvara Mahadeva, Bhuteshvara Mahadeva, Rangeshvara Mahadeva and so on, cannot award the benediction that can be attained by the mercy of Gopishvara - the highest perfection of love, namely Vraja-Prema.

Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has composed a prayer in his Vraja-vilasa-stava:

muda gopendrasyatmaja bhuja parisranga nidhaye

sphurad gopirvrndair yam iha bhagavatam pranayibhih

bhajadbhistair bhaktyas vamabhilasitam praptam acirad

yamitire gopisvaram anudinam tam kila bhaje

'I daily worship Gopishvara Mahadeva, who is situated on the bank of Yamuna. That very Gopishvara was worshipped with deep devotion by the Gopis, and he quickly fulfilled their desire to attain a supremely precious jewel in the form of the embrace of the son of Nanda Maharaja [Krishna].'

Srila Sanatana Gosvami, the great Vaishnava saint who resided in Vrindavana near the old Sri Madana-Mohana temple, would go daily to see Sri Gopishvara Mahadeva at his temple. Once, in his older years, Sanatana Gosvami had a dream wherein Gopishvara Mahadeva appeared and instructed him: "Now that you are old, please do not go through so much trouble to see me." Sanatana Gosvami replied, "I will continue to come. I cannot change this habit." Gopishvara Mahadeva said, "Then I will come and stay very near to your residence, manifesting in Bankhandi" The very next day, Sri Gopishvara Mahadeva appeared in Bankhandi, halfway between his original temple and Srila Sanatana Gosvami's residence. Seeing this, Sanatana Gosvami became overwhelmed with transcendental ecstasy, and from that day on he visited Bankhandi Mahadeva every day.

Wherever he was, Srila Sanatana Gosvami could not live without his beloved Lord Shiva - Gopishvara Mahadeva and Bankhandi Mahadeva in Vrindavana, and Kameshvara Mahadeva in Kamyavana forest. In Govardhana he would stay near his very dear friend, Cakreshvara Mahadeva, who acquired the name when he served Govardhana Hill and the Vrajavasis by holding up his trident like a Chakra, protecting them from the torrential deluge sent by King Indra. Prior to this, Lord Shiva, had asked Sri Krishna for the boon to witness His childhood pastimes. Krishna ordered him to situate himself in Nandagaon in the form of a hill. Shiva followed this order and became Nandishvara Hill, and he thus became known as Nandishvara. (Lord Brahma became Brahma-parvata, the mountain in Srimati Radhika's birthplace, Varshana. Because Brahma is so near to Radhika, he is also our Gurudeva.)

We honour Lord Shiva as a great Vaishnava and as Guru. We do not worship him separately. We observe Shiva-ratri, Lord Shiva's appearance day, and we glorify him in connection to his relationship with Sri Krishna. Srila Sanatana Gosvami has written in his Hari-Bhakti-vilasa that all Vaishnavas should observe Shiva-caturdasi (Shiva-ratri). Lord Shiva in whom all good qualities reside, should certainly be honoured by the observance of this day.

We offer obeisance to Lord Shiva with prayers like this:

vrindavanavani-pate! jaya soma soma-maule

sanaka-sanandana-sanatana-naradedya

gopisvara! vraja-vilasi-yuganghri-padme

prema prayaccha nirupadhi namo namas te

 

 

(Sankalpa-kalpadruma 103)

 

'O Gatekeeper of Vrindavana! O Soma, all glories to you! O you whose forehead is decorated with the moon, and who is worship able by the sages headed by Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana and Narada! O Gopishvara! Desiring that you bestow upon me prema for the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha- Madhava, who perform joyous pastimes in Vraja- Dhama, I offer obeisance’s unto you time and again.'

From the small book "Siva Tattva" - ISBN #81-86737-74-X, Gaudiya Vedanta Publications 2005

[raghu]

 

Raghu, what is the context on the Shvetashvatara Upanishad that leads one to suppose that where it names Shiva it really means Vishnu?

 

For example, the Upanishad states (6.18) that this Deity is He from whom Brahma is created and instructed in the Vedas. Everyone knows that this is Vishnu. In the very first adhyaaya it begins with an invocation to Hari. I don't see why a text that purports to describe the supremacy of Shiva would do that.

 

 

If it had been the other way round and Vishnu had been named would you not have claimed it as conclusive evidence from the shruti that Vishnu is the Supreme Deity?

 

Well, I have already quoted other conclusive pieces of evidence like Rig Veda 1.22.20 which speaks of the paramam padam of Vishnu. This is a clear reference but for some reason it is not satisfactory to some. I don't get worked up over these things because my observation has been that such clear-cut evidence is often dismissed by academics and neo-vedantins while apparent references to Shiva's supremacy are invariably emphasized completely out of context. This discussion is a perfect example. Shiva's supremacy is alluded to in the Upanishads, and as proof, the Shvetashvatara is quoted (as if there are no other principal upanishads - it is *always* the shvetashvatara that gets quoted by the Shaivites).

 

 

And can you dismiss any passage from the Mahabharata as interpolation just because it does not fit with what one would like to be there?

 

No, one should dismiss it if it cannot be reconciled with shruti. In every system of Vedanta with which I am familiar, the smritis are treated as a dependent authority. It is the shrutis whose authority is accepted by all. Which Vedanta school are you following that holds to a contrary view? As far as I am aware the authority of shruti is an axiom for all traditional Vedic schools.

 

 

All of these passages have been accepted by the critical editors who ruled out many others as interpolations.

 

While I am sure they are well intentioned, the methodologies of "critical edition" editors cannot guarantee a pristine Mahabharata identical to that edition that was scribed by Ganesha. In some cases, they try to create an 'all-inclusive' edition which includes material from all recensions, even when it is unique to only one or two. That approach is obviously flawed. Then of course there is the exclusivist approach (which I believe BORI followed) in which only material common to the various recensions is included. This approach does not rule out that the interpolation (or even deletions) could have occurred prior to the division into so many different recensions.

 

But all of this is neither here nor there. The bottom line is that only shruti is independently authoritative from a Vedanta standpoint.

 

 

My point is that there is just as much evidence from shruti and smriti to show that Shiva is supreme as there is to show that Vishnu is supreme.

 

If the shrutis contradict themselves as you seem to implicitly claim, then there is no sense in trying to derive some grand unified understanding of all of them - after all, they are supposedly contradictory!

 

One has to use the shruti to understand the shruti, just as one understands one chapter of a book from what has understood from previous chapters of the same book.

 

Or, we can assume that each chapter of the book was written by a different author with a different agenda. In that case, what is the use of studying it?

 

 

One might therefore conclude that both Vishnu and Shiva are the Supreme Deity,

 

This is like saying that one can reconcile the bedha and so-called "abedha" references by accepting an abedha philosophy (i.e. Advaita).

 

The problem with your theory is that many sources that claim the supremacy of one Deity explicitly indicate that the other is a lesser deity. Reconciling Vishnu smritis with Shaiva smritis by claiming the supremacy/identity of both actually reconciles neither.

 

Among these, I mentioned Rig Veda 7.40.5 in which it is said that Rudra got his strength by propitiating Vishnu. Here is another clear reference in which both Rudra and Vishnu are named in the same mantra, not as equals but as worshipper and worshipped. Why must we ignore this reference?

 

 

otherwise one has to say that a text means Vishnu when it says Shiva and that passages of the Mahabharata should be rejected on no other grounds than that they do not confirm my own beliefs.

 

In Vedantic discourse, any smriti which contradicts shruti is rejected. It isn't a question of "confirm my own beliefs" but rather of giving preference to shruti.

 

regards,

 

Raghu

[meenakshiamman]

I feel that Krishna and Shiva are linked. Do they not both worship one another? I find it hard to separate the two in my mind.

 

I think calling him a demi-god is a downright insult, personally. Is this to say that all of those who have worshipped him as the ultimate for thousands of years are now being called fools?

[Beggar]

Lord Shiva has a function in relation to injecting the jivas into this world as Sada Shiva and as the Destroyer. Lord Krsna has no such function, His only function is to enjoy with His devotees in the forests of transcendental Vrndavana. Think of the implications.

[guliaditya]

 

Is that a lingam or a salagrama in that photo, Beggar-ji? Looks like lingam to me... is Tulasi ever offered to Lord Shiva?

 

 

Any person who sees shiva linga or Lord Narayana's murti worshipped with tulsi, is freed from the dosha of Brahma hatya..... Brahma purana.

 

Hence Tulasi is very much offered to Lord Shiva

 

Pranaam

[guliaditya]

Dark Warrior,

 

I have reposted my reply...

 

First of all "Demi-god" is a very wrong word.It should be devtaa instead of demi-god.

Secondly why every time questions on supremacy is being asked????

Whether considering Lord Narayana as supreme is sufficient to attain Vaikunth Dham???? Whether our purpose of getting Krishna's prema bhati will be attained???

Read the conversation between Yudhisithira & Shree Bhishma in Mahabharata. Shree Bhishma adviced Yudhisithira to ask Lord Krishna who is Lord Narayana himself, to describe about shiva tattva. Shree Bhishma was not capable & neither Lord Brahma is capable too.

Read HariHar stotra recited by Markendaya rishi on the advice of Lord Brahma in Harivansh Purana.

By this fact whether it is not clear that Lord Shiva is not a so called "Demi-god".If Lord Shiva is just an ordinary Jivattama then Shree Bhishmaji would have told the same fact to Yudhisithra.Remember Shri Bhishma is one among the 12 Bhagvat acharyas.His statement are more authoriative.

Lord Narayana is Lord Shiva hence dont try to differentiate. Many great acharyas/rishis have explained in their writings but still we are debating on this silly point.Lord Narayan himself have revealed this fact then where is the confusion???

 

"A person has a right to be wrong in froming the opinion but a person has no right to be wrong regarding the facts."

 

Pranaam

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Is that a lingam or a salagrama in that photo, Beggar-ji? Looks like lingam to me... is Tulasi ever offered to Lord Shiva?

 

 

 

No. Once during an interesting pastime, Tulasi was put at the feet of Lord Shiva. She cried that she didn't like these feet

Of course these are all transcendental pastimes. But generally we offer bilva leaves at the feet of Lord Shiva.

 

 

Haribol my friends,

 

There is in fact one famous exception to this rule, Vaidyanath Dhama in Parali, Maharashtra (there is another tirtha that goes by the same name in Devghar, Jharakhanda). Just bother to go through this inspiring quote:

 

Just as Parali is a place of pilgrimage for Shiva devotees, it is also a meeting point for Hari Hara. In this mixed holy place, Lord Krishna’s festivals too are celebrated along with Lord Shankara’s festivals, with great festivity. The water from the Harihar Teerth is brought for the daily worship of Vaidyanath. Every Monday devotees gather here in great numbers.

 

On Chaitra Padva, Vijayadashani, Tripuri Pournima, Maha Shivaratri and Vaikunth Chaturdashi, big celebrations take place. During these celebrations, there is no distinction between Bel and Tulsi. Mahadev is offered Tulsi leaves and Vishnu is offered Bel leaves. This unique practice is seen only in Vaidyanath. During the rainy season (Sravan) worship of Vaidyanath, the entire area of Parali echoes with the chanting of Rudrabhisheka Mantrochchar. The regular Puja is also done with great devotion and dedication.

 

Click here for the full article - http://www.shaivam.org/siddhanta/sp/spjyoti_vaidyanath.htm

[SHREEGAURKRIPAALUdaas]

Namaste everyone except tackeberry,

Tackleberry, this is the last limit of atheism to say BHAGAVA SHANKAR is mere a demi-god. In our Vedic Literatures and Divine Scriptures HE is called either a Unique Devotee of SHREEKRISHN or an aspect of Supreme Personality of GODHEAD.

 

Like, in Shrimad Bhagavatam, BHAGAVAN SHANKR is called a Unique Devotee of SHREEKRISHN :

Nimnagaayaam yathaa ganga devaanaam yathaa achyuto |

Vaishnavaanaam yathaa SHAMBHU puraanaanaam idam tatha ||

" As GANGAJI ( Liquid BRAHM ) is the most pious river in Trailok, As VISHNU is the topmost among all the Devatas, As SHAMBHU is the unique devotee among all the infinite Vaishnavas of Infinte Spiritual Universe, this puran ( Shrimad Bhagavatam ) is unique among all the eighteen puranas revealed by BHAGAVAN VEDVYASJI. "

One may say that one of the sutras of Narad-Bhakti-Darshan says that " yathaa vrajgopikaanaam " means the unique devotees are Vraj-Gopis.Here BHAGAVAN SHANKAR is not stated as unique devotee but Vraj-Gopis are stated in Narad-Bhakti-Darshan. Then whether Srimad-Bhagavatam is correct or Narad-Bhakti-Darshan ? The answer is : Both are correct !! Because BHAGAVAN SHANKAR also assumes the form of Vraj-Gopi namely SHIVANI GOPI. So, this SHIVANI GOPI is understood in that sutra of Narad-Bhakti-Darshan. This will be discussed after a few minutes.

Now, in our Upanishad HE is said as Supreme Power :

Maayinaam tu MAHESHWARAM |

Purushamevedam sarvam eko RUDRO na dwitiyaay vidyate |

These Vedic Mantras mean “ there is only one PURUSH who is creator, sustainer and annihilator of this Infinite Cosmos. THAT PURUSH is RUDRA ( BHAGAVAN SHANKAR ). ’’

In NILARUDRA Upanishad, it is said that –

“ those who differentiate between BHAGAVAN VISHNU and BHAGAVAN SHANKAR goes to the darkest region of Maya. ’’

By common sense, everyone can understand that every non-living and living beings including demi-gods, devatas, humans, demons, small creatures like insects, bacteria, virus etc. get destroyed at the time of the final cosmic annihilation called Mahapralaya. And BHAGAVAN SHIVA is annihilator of infinite universes according to our Scriptures. Can demi-god or devata can annihilate infinite universes ? No. And BHAGAVAN SHIVA remains existing even after this annihilation. This means that HE is Supreme Power and there is no difference between MAHAVISHNU and SHIVA. THEY are another two forms of SHREEKRISN. Like, ice and vapor are two forms of water but hydrogen and oxygen molecules are there in all the three forms. Similarly, all the Divine Power are there in SHREEKRISHN, MAHAVISHNU and SHIVA but their workings are different and ya SHREEKRISHN is real cause of MAHAVISHNU and SHIVA like water is the real cause of ice and vapor.

Now, you have given the reference of Shrimad Bhagavatam about that MOHINI Incarnation of SHREEKRISHN and said that BHAGAVAN SHANKAR’s senses got agitated on seeing this incarnation. But that was the Divine Lila between GOD ( SHREEKRISHN ) and HIS Dear Devotee ( SHANKAR ). It is not like that you see a naked person and your senses get agitated out of your demoniac lust. Because about BHAGAVAN SHANKAR it is written in our scripture that - “ nahi swatmaramam vishya mrigtrishnabhramayati ” means lust ( vishay mrigtrushna) can even not stand before the Supreme Yogi ( SHIVA ) of Kailas Abode. THIS same BHAGAVAN SHANKAR destroys Kamdeva very easily by opening HIS third-eye. So, your argument about the verse of Shrimad Bhagavatam is hollow.

Now, come to the other argument given by you with the reference of the verse of Bhagavad Gita ( 7.23 ). In this verse SHREEKRISHN says not to worship demi-gods for worldly pleasure. But since BHAGAVAN SHIVA is not demi-god, this verse is not at all applicable to HIM. So, this is your another dark ignorance.

i am very much engry with you and also sad because there is an atheist like you in such a famous institute called ISKCON. If Shril Prabhupadji were here and he would know your ignorance then he would certainly call you rascal. Because ‘rascal’ was his favorite word for atheist. i cannot say you rascal because I am also bound Jeevatma like you and everyone. In SHIVA-Puran, BHAGAVAN SHIVA is stated as Paramatma. This means that there is no difference between MAHAVISHNU and SHIVA. But, the confused soul like you never consider SHIVA-Puran as Divine Scripture and will consider as a product of Tamogun ( mode of ignorance ).

Now, to make your understanding more clear, here i would like to tell some special devotional features of BHAGAVAN SHANKAR which are impossible to find in other devotees. Because BHAGAVAN SHANKAR is a devotee-aspect of Supreme Personality of Godhead, SHREEKRISHN as confirmed in Brahmsamhita 5.45 ( read also the commentary of Shril Jeev Goswami on this shloka ). Those devotional features are as follows :

( 1 ) There is no difference between body ( Sharir ) and AATMA

( Shariri ) of BHAGAVAN SHANKAR. This fact is

similarly applicable to HIS SHREERAM Bhakt form i.e.

to HIS HANUMAN form as well as HIS

ADVAITACHARYA form through which HE serves

SHREECHAITANYA MAHAPRABHUJI.

While for other devotee of Spiritual Universe,

there is a difference between his Spiritual Body and his

Aatma.

( 2 ) According to the Vedant-Sutra

" Jagadvyaapaar varjam ", SHREEKRISHN doesn't give

right to any of HIS infinte devotees of Spiritual Universe to

deal with the work related to creation of infinite

material universes. But the only devotee BHAGAVAN

SHANKAR can deal with and is dealing with the same

task.

( 3 ) Infinite Devotees of SHREEKRISHN of Spiritual Universe

are Mayatit ( i.e. are beyond any kind of influence

of material nature and not controller of this material

nature as well ) but are YOGAMAYAdhin ( i.e. are

governed by YOGAMAYA ) in Spiritual Universe.

While BHAGAVAN SHANKAR is such a

devotee who is MAYADHISH ( i.e. is beyond any

kind of influence of material nature as well as controller of

material nature ) and also YOGAMAYADHISH ( i.e.

governor of YOGAMAYA and that's why called

PARVATINAYAK ).

( 4 ) SHREEKRISHN's infinite devotees of Spiritual Universe are

Sat-Chit-Aanand-may ( i.e. are full of Eternity-Knowledge-

Bliss ).

While BHAGAVAN SHANKAR is such a devotee

who is SAT-CHIT-AANAND-GHAN ( i.e. Personified and

Solidified Eternity-Knowledge-Bliss ).

( 5 ) There are five Bhav ( i.e. Devotional Feelings ) to serve

SHREEKRISHN. In ascending order, first is Shant-Bhav

( of Vaikunth’s and Dwarika’s inhabitants’ ), then Dasya-Bhav

( of Saket’s inhabitants ), third is Sakhya-Bhaav ( of Arjun or of

Gopabal of Vraj ) then Vatsalya-Bhav ( of

Kaushalyaji-Dasharathmaharaj and

Yashodaji-Nandmaharaj ) and fifth is the topmost

Madhurya-Bhav ( of Vraj-Gopis ).

The devotee of SHREEKRISHN of Spiritual

Universe cannot enter into the higher state than his own.

Means, the devotee of Sakhya-Bhav can enter into the

Divine Regions of Dasya-Bhav and Shant-Bhav but

cannot enter into the Divine Regions of Vatsalya-Bhav

and Madhurya-Bhav. And so on for other devotees of

different Bhav.

But yes, devotee of Madhurya-Bhav can enter

into all the Divine Spaces of rest of the four Bhav. Thus,

he can enter into all the five Divine Spaces of Bhav. But

he can remain in and enjoy only one Divine Space at the

same time, not all the Divine Spaces of five Bhav

simultaneously.

But being a multi-dimensional Supreme

Personality of Godhead, BHAGAVAN SHANKAR can

enjoy and is enjoying all the five Divine Spaces

simultaneously. For example,

-the Divine Space of Shant-Bhav, in HIS own infinite

Abode Kailas Dham, HE enjoys HIS Absolute

Niranjan Samadhi in which HE meditates upon "

SHREEMAHAVISHNU-pad-nakhmani-

chandrikaaprakash " ( i.e. the Cool and Calm Divine

Light coming out from the Diamond of the nail of the

toe of the right leg of SHREEMAHAVISHNU ).

-the Divine Space of Dasya-Bhav, HE enjoys

different Leelas ( i.e. playful activities ) with HIS

SOUL-BELOVED SHREESITARAM by

assuming the form of HANUMAANJI. BHAGAVAN

SHANKAR also assumes the form of Murai Gupt ( which is

the expansion of HIS HANUMAN form ) while

undisappearance of SHREECHAITANYA

MAHAPRABHUJI on our planet Earth.

----When SHREERADHARANI undisappears on

our planet Earth in the form of SHREECHAITANYA

MAHAPRABHUJI, BHAGAVAN SHANKAR

assumes the form of ADWAITACHARYA ( which is

combined form of MAHAVISHNU and SADASHIV )

and in this form HE enjoys the Ras ( i.e. Divine Juice )

of Sakhya-Bhav and Vatsalya-Bhav depending

upon the Leela performed by SHREECHAITANYA

MAHAPRABHUJI.

-the Divine Space of Madhurya-Bhav,

BHAGAVAN SHANKAR assumes the form of

SHIVANI GOPI and enjoys the Supreme Divine

Juice by taking part in MahaRas with

SHREEKRISHN.

( 6 ) SHREEKRISHN sings a Loving Sweet Name

of HIS SOUL i.e. SHEERADHARANI in HIS

melodious Flute. This Flute is the root cause of

MahaRas Lila because after playing It, MahaRas

starts. Now, according to Veda-Mantra " Vansheehee tu

bhagavaan rudrah " , this Flute is no other than

BHAGAVAN SHANKAR Himself. It means that, in the

Divine Space of Madhurya-Bhav, BHAGAVAN

SHANKAR assumes two devotional forms : one is of

melodious Flute and the other is of SHIVANI GOPI.

Just imagine, BHAGAVAN SHANKAR is

drinking Vaikunth-Ras, Saket-Ras and Vraj-Ras of

infinite amount simultaneously even right now !!!! Then

what would be the extent of HIS Prem ( i.e. Divine Love )

for SHREEKRISHN !!!!??

So these are some of the devotional features of BHAGAVAAN SHANKAR out of HIS infinite devotional qualities. In reality, HIS devotional features are far beyond than these qualities stated above. In the words of a Gandharva Devotee namely, Pushpadantji :

Mahimnah paaram te paramavidusho yadhya sadrishi

Stutirbrahmaadinaamapi tadav sannastvayi girah |

Athaavaachyaasarva swamatiparinaamaavadhigrinan

Mamaapyeshastotre hara nirapavaadaparikarah ||

 

" O my dear BHAGAVAN SHANKAR ! if qualified intellect is necessary to chant your glorification, even intellect of Brahmaajee is not that much sufficient for that chanting. Because all are showing limits of their intellects, not your glorification. But despite of this, YOU accept their prayers. So i hope there should be no problem in accepting my this prayer which is born out of my limited knowledge. "

I bow down unto the lotus-feet of infinite devotees of SHREEKRISHN in Spiritual Universe. I am not interested at all in saying that other devotees of SHREEKRISHN in Spiritual Universe are inferior to BHAGAVAN SHANKAR. But my aim is to share the idea that such is our BHAGAVAN SHANKAR, a unique devotee.

Finally, there is no difference between HARI and HARA.

O my dear BHAGAVAN SHANKAR ! O my dear HANUMAANJI ! O my dear ADWAITACHARYAJI ! O my dear SADASHIV ! From YOU, i beg a single drop of that Divine Juice which YOU relish in the form of SHIVANI GOPI with my SOUL-BELOVED SHREERADHAKRISHN. From YOU, i beg Nishkam (i.e. selfishnessless ) Devotion unto the Lotus-Feet of my SOUL-BELOVED SHREERADHAKRISHN.

!! jay jay SHREERADHEY !!

!! jay jay SHREERADHEY !!

!! jay jay SHREERADHEY !!

[Shivaduta]

 

by tackleberry - except Vishnu, no one can be Supreme. There cannot be 'two' supreme entities. So Shiva is NOT supreme,

 

 

i love the intellect of this man... he doesnt seem to have got the simplest of ideas inspite of having read so widely...

 

He might well say "In my family my father is supreme and my mother and the rest of ius are shit" or vice versa ...

 

Anyone who has lived in this world "with his eyes open" will know that any businessman is the supreme in his organisation... but there are aspects where he knows nothing even in his organisation... A tata or a birla or an ambani will have to call a computer hardware expert when it comes to repairing a computer... this small technician is the supreme when it comes to decission about the computer... a mallaya cant fly his own airplanes... the pilot is the "supreme" even when mallaya the owner of the airline is flying on a kingfisher flight...