Is Lord Shiva a demi-god?

[Avinash]

Thanks, Dark Warrior.

I enjoyed this discussion a lot and I specially enjoyed annoying you.

[bija]

'....numbskull' posted by dark

Thanks, Dark Warrior.

I enjoyed this discussion a lot and I specially enjoyed annoying you. posted by avinash

This got me giggling....and my sides splitting...and my cheeks hurting:P

 

Thx Avinash and Dark:)!

 

*dark warrior grows on ya eventually - narayana must have a sense of humor

[Alexey]

Namaste all,

 

As far as we can see such speculations on shruti oftenly drives us to the position we were before: each party holds on its own opinion. ))

 

 

But who is Param Brahma Purusham, the Supreme Delighter?

 

Let us consider a rich man who wants to build a large house according his delight. Will he build the house himself? Will this man destroy it himself on his delight when he wants to have a new one? Surely NO. But according his delight HE ENTERS the house HIMSELF to live in it.

 

vishnu vishateh

 

 

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada states: "Similarly, by expanding Himself as Lord Shiva, the Supreme Lord is engaged when there is a need to annihilate the universe. Lord Shiva, in association with maya, has many forms, which are generally numbered at eleven. Lord Shiva is not one of the living entities; he is, more or less, Krishna Himself. The example of milk and yogurt is often given in this regard -- yogurt is a preparation of milk, but still yogurt cannot be used as milk. Similarly, Lord Shiva is an expansion of Krishna, but he cannot act as Krishna… The essential difference is that Lord Siva has a connection with material nature, but Vishnu or Lord Krishna has nothing to do with material nature."

 

 

Regarding the incorectness of term demigod.

Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad used this greek-european word for devata/deva when he preached in the western countries.

 

Hari Om Tat Sat

[tackleberry]

Even according to advaita, not all the gods are one in the vyavahArik sense. So people who say Shiva=Vishnu aren't advaitins in the classical sense. They're neo-advaitins influenced by Vivekananda, Chinmaya, and the rest.

 

A classical advaitin believes that ultimately all names and forms are illusory, and therefore ONLY the formless existence behind it is real. On account of this, not only Krishna and Shiva, even plants, animals and pretty much everything else can be considered one and the same, because ultimately their forms all merge into the formless.

[Alexey]

 

Even according to advaita, not all the gods are one in the vyavahArik sense. So people who say Shiva=Vishnu aren't advaitins in the classical sense. They're neo-advaitins influenced by Vivekananda, Chinmaya, and the rest.

 

A classical advaitin believes that ultimately all names and forms are illusory, and therefore ONLY the formless existence behind it is real. On account of this, not only Krishna and Shiva, even plants, animals and pretty much everything else can be considered one and the same, because ultimately their forms all merge into the formless.

 

sad eva saumyedam agra AsId ekam evAdvitIyaM tad aikShata

bahu syAm prajAyeya

["in the beginning was the Supreme, who was one

without a second. He thought: Let me become many. Let me

become the father of many"]

(Chandogya Up. 6.2.1)

 

And as stated above Krishna and Shiva ARE NOT the same. The topic is about Shiva tattva.

The ultimate true is that God has personal and impersonal aspects at the same time! Otherwise He's not a God, the Whole being. Gaudia vaisnavas accept it as achintya bhedabheda tattva. And if you want to merge with Him He is not against your descision. He will let you to do it, because He is Ishwara.

 

Vishnu, Krishna, Narayana is the Supreme Personality, param brahma purusha. And the taste of cooperation with Supreme Personality and devotion to Him is sacred and is the most attractive to the jiva that felt it once.

 

p.s. Hmm. Advaita... Have you see anywhere smth. formless ? Illusion... I would to ask some advaitin to put his hand in a fire. Hope the pain will be illusionary, the game of the consciousness.

[tackleberry]

 

 

p.s. Hmm. Advaita... Have you see anywhere smth. formless ? Illusion... I would to ask some advaitin to put his hand in a fire. Hope the pain will be illusionary, the game of the consciousness.

 

The advaitin will argue that even an illusory world (fire in your example) can cause pain, similar to how an illusory snake superimposed on the rope can cause fear.

[matarisvan]

 

p.s. Hmm. Advaita... Have you see anywhere smth. formless ? Illusion... I would to ask some advaitin to put his hand in a fire. Hope the pain will be illusionary, the game of the consciousness.

 

Advaita does not say fire and pain are illusory. This ia typical nonsense post from a Hare Krishna. Another Hare Krishna made a similar nonsense post that according to advaita I am you and you are me.

 

I am not an advaita supporter...but this level of ignorance on the subject is hard to believe.

[tackleberry]

 

Advaita does not say fire and pain are illusory. This ia typical nonsense post from a Hare Krishna. Another Hare Krishna made a similar nonsense post that according to advaita I am you and you are me.

 

I am not an advaita supporter...but this level of ignorance on the subject is hard to believe.

I am not an advaitin either, but for the sake of argument...even if the fire is considered unreal, there is still no reason to believe that an unreal thing cannot cause reactions. Otherwise, it'd be impossible to explain as to how an unreal dream (because dream, by definition, is unreal) could cause reactions. Nor can we consider the dream to be real, because that would be a contradiction in terms.

 

So advaita considers such *worldly realities* to be vyavahArika satya-s, which become totally false on waking up, similar to how a dream (which appears totally real, note the word 'appears') becomes false on waking up. Not that I am convinced by this argument, but at least there is some logic to advaita, and it isn't as absurd as most 'pseudo-vaishnava-s' and HKs would have us believe.

[shvu]

 

Advaita does not say fire and pain are illusory. This ia typical nonsense post from a Hare Krishna. Another Hare Krishna made a similar nonsense post that according to advaita I am you and you are me.

 

I am not an advaita supporter...but this level of ignorance on the subject is hard to believe.

 

Spend as much time here as I have and you will have no trouble believing it.

 

We live in a world where high school dropouts have the audacity to criticize a genius like Shankara without knowing even the basics of his doctrine!

 

Cheers

[Alexey]

 

Spend as much time here as I have and you will have no trouble believing

it.

We live in a world where high school dropouts have the audacity to criticize a genius like Shankara without knowing even the basics of his doctrine!

 

Cheers

You still live in material world. )) I'm not an academic advaita resarcher but it is not the case to call me dropout. It is not very ethical. )) I respect Shankara for his monism doctrine. It is quite systematic. But some essential problems are:

 

1) Maya/avidya prevents us to realize the nature of of Brahman. But there's nothing beside pure Brahman. What is the source of maya? Brahman includes everything, there's nothing except it. Advaita is strong monism.

 

2) It is known that Brahman is homogeneous and atomic.Where does the avidya/maya comes from? It cannot be neither a part of Brahman nor something external to it.

 

3) When we are told that avidya is illusion, the question appears: why this so called "illisiuon" is so sensible for us? We have to feel the Brahman only, satam shanti.

 

4)karya-karana-abheda-vada The cause is not different from its effect. If it is true Brahman is avidya/maya. Because the material world is avidya/maya. And there's no other cause (primal and operative) of this material world except Brahman. I doubt that any advaitin will accept that Brahman and avydia is the same entity.

 

5) Hypothesis of identity of Brahman and avidya/maya is confirmed with the fact that Brahman is not sat nor asat, and avidya is nor sat nor asat also. However some abstract entity (or nothing) and other abstract entity (or nothing) can not be distinguished. Continuing such logical steps drive us to the derivation that we have no chances to find any differences between Brhaman and avidya/maya. Shankara had no audacity to define Brahman as total void (ultimate nothing) because in such case advaita vedanta would be the same as madhyama/shunyavada.

[Alexey]

 

Otherwise, it'd be impossible to explain as to how an unreal dream (because dream, by definition, is unreal) could cause reactions. Nor can we consider the dream to be real, because that would be a contradiction in terms.

Dreams are effected by conditions of material body and mind. But not vise a versa.

 

 

So advaita considers such *worldly realities* to be vyavahArika satya-s, which become totally false on waking up, similar to how a dream (which appears totally real, note the word 'appears') becomes false on waking up. Not that I am convinced by this argument, but at least there is some logic to advaita, and it isn't as absurd as most 'pseudo-vaishnava-s' and HKs would have us believe.

If someone really wants you to belive something, that is manifested forms of material world are illusion because they are asat (appeard once they dissapear then). But the are not illusion because someone calls them a product of individual consciousness influenced by avidya.

[Alexey]

 

The advaitin will argue that even an illusory world (fire in your example) can cause pain, similar to how an illusory snake superimposed on the rope can cause fear.

The rope that he sees is real and if he thinks it's a snake he is just in ignorance. Restricted sensor system leads such person to invalid conclusion. Does that mean that neither snakes exist nor ropes?! Moreover if the pain and the fear are the same mind experience why do we distinguish them?!

[Alexey]

 

and it isn't as absurd as most 'pseudo-vaishnava-s' and HKs would have us believe.

And whom do you consider to be a "real" vaisnava? Was Heliodorus (from yavana lands) or not? )

I'm sure you well know whom Gautama (son of Haridrumata) considerd as brahmana (Chandogya Up., IV.4.1.4.).

 

Best regards.

[tackleberry]

 

The rope that he sees is real and if he thinks it's a snake he is just in ignorance. Restricted sensor system leads such person to invalid conclusion. Does that mean that neither snakes exist nor ropes?! Moreover if the pain and the fear are the same mind experience why do we distinguish them?!

 

Rope is real and the snake unreal. So the advaitin will reason that the substratum, namely Formless Brahman, is real, and forms, including Krishna, are unreal. As to equating pain and fear, no advaitin will say the forms are the same, because they believe that the forms are illusory; hence, the locus of both (formless existence) must be the same. This is their idea of identity, not some kind of mathematical equality like pain=fear or whatever.

[tackleberry]

 

Dreams are effected by conditions of material body and mind. But not vise a versa.

 

 

If someone really wants you to belive something, that is manifested forms of material world are illusion because they are asat (appeard once they dissapear then). But the are not illusion because someone calls them a product of individual consciousness influenced by avidya.

 

Makes no sense at all, even from a vaishnava perspective.

[Alexey]

 

Rope is real and the snake unreal. So the advaitin will reason that the substratum, namely Formless Brahman, is real, and forms, including Krishna, are unreal. As to equating pain and fear, no advaitin will say the forms are the same, because they believe that the forms are illusory; hence, the locus of both (formless existence) must be the same. This is their idea of identity, not some kind of mathematical equality like pain=fear or whatever.

Would you please tell me what are Brahman an Maya actually? How do you distinguish them with Advaita vedanta?(see my post above). When we talk about illusion we assume some prior experience that recalls a form in the mind. Otherwise term is nothing. At least some experience needed to make consciousness operating images. Also experience needed to recognize tthe images. Even to fall into illusion you need to fail comparing the rope (real) with something other you directly or not contacted before. Moreover operating such objects in your analogies you deal with other illusionary forms of this world. So how is it possible to describe anything of another nature? Brahman is attributless but you call it a "rope" that could be looked like a snake because they both have something similar (e.g. flexy thin form and color),. If they have nothing similar we are not able to fall into illusion. If you assume that this similarity is Brahman substrate I would ask you why do you not look like me?

[Alexey]

 

Makes no sense at all, even from a vaishnava perspective.

maya makes you to sence in all the perspectives I visited the site to answer thread starter about Lord Shiva.

 

Milk and youghurt cannot be used in the same manner. What did you find advaitian here? Milk is the substrate for youghurt. But not vice a versa.

 

Mahadev is the Lord of Prakriti which is the operative cause of material world. He is God's Personality for material nature. Only God is able to control tamoguna (avidya) that forces all jivas to suffer by contacts with it. But the supreme nature of God's Personality is shuddha sattva. That is Narayana, Krishna, Vishnu etc. Please, remind the example according reach man and the house. Krishna has nothing to do with material nature at all. He just enjoys.

[hindustani]

Subject:- Seeing is beliving

I am reposting one of post which one of my friend posted in Om Namah Shivaya Group in few days back,this post will solve all doubts,friends this is Kaliyug and such discussion can only take place in this era,I shall not discuss any further on this matter as it will be the biggest sean if I write anything here,what I am going to show you should solve all queries in just one post of mine,here I go.Pasting original post of author here.

----

I am showing you something which human eye may not able to belive it!This I came to know few days back when I was uploading a photo to one of my friend hence shown this to all nears and dears and now sharing it with memebrs on this exclusive platform devoted to lord Shiva.

-------------

Preparing a background

------------x----------------x-----------------x---------------x----------------

About Somnath

 

Somnath is one of the 12 jyotirlingas of lord Shiva, offering a holy pilgrimage, a beach holiday and a number of places of historic, religious or scenic importance. The temple has imposing architecture, a 50-meter high shikara tower and a pretty Nandi.

 

Legend

 

Legend has it that Somraj, the moon god, originally built the Somnath Temple out of gold. Later it was rebuilt by Ravana in silver and then again by Krishna in wood and yet again by King Bhimdev Solanki in stone in the 10th century. Mahmud of Ghazni, upon hearing the description of the temple by an Arab traveler - Al Biruni, raided the temple in 1024 AD and looted it, carrying away camel loads of jewels and gold. Somnath was destroyed six times and rebuilt on every occasion. After the 1706 AD demolition by the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb, it was rebuilt the seventh time in 1950 AD with the support of Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel The temple was so rich that it had over 300 musicians, 500 dancing girls and even 300 barbers - just to shave the heads of pilgrims

Location

 

25 kms. From Chorwad, Gujarat.10 kms From Veraval,approx 410 kms from Ahmedabad.

----------xx-------------xx-------------xx-----------------xx-----------------xx----------

Before I begin let me tell you that this works in XP and what I am going to show you may not work in other operating systems,not tried any other operating systems so no idea.

Step:-1 go to this link containing Shri Shivling of Shri Somnath temple. This is original shot and not termpered with.Do double look at the shivling and now proceed to step no.2.

img75.imageshack.us/img75/584/somnathjinn2.jpg

(Original shot linked above if of Shri Shivling at

Somnathji Temple in Gujarat. somnath.org/photo/40.jpg)

 

 

Step:-2

Now you need to save this photo to a specific folder called my pictures in your windows xp,this folder you can find in my documents go to start>documents and there you will see a folder called my pictures inside it,(another way is copy below link in your browser and hit enter.

Your DRIVE C OR D:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\My Pictures

now you can see my pictures folder.),save this photo there.

Or open above link and use save as command and save photo to my picture folder which is a default folder for storing all images in xp.

Step:-3

Now open your my picture folder and then go to view and selct option called Thumbnails.View menu is on top of your screen for your kind information.

Step:-4

while remaining inside the my picture folder and select this image which you have downloaded from above link and select it by single clicking your mouse.If your default setting is like "single click to open items" than just put your cursor on that image and select it(dont click it).

Step:-5

See what you see on the left side of your screen as thumbnail !!! And post your reply below this message.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++End of Part I+++++++++++

 

Part II will follow after I get responce of what you managed to see by using above steps.

Note:Being a new member I am NOT allowed to post weblinks so add http or www in front of url if one fails to open page in given links in this post.

[deepa.bhandari]

Dear Jay ji,

 

The thumbnail appears different from the downloaded photo, however in my opinion its only a tech-gimmick. I suppose HIS miracles could never be that shallow?

 

I will wait for Part II, your topics are mostly sensible and interesting!

 

Best Wishes

Deepa

[hindustani]

Thanks a lot Deepaji,yes there is a science involved here as you know but one should find a message inside the part I here,we are tiny creatures created by God and who are we to compare them or analyse who is THE GREATEST among them?Very sad to see this thread and that is why I copy paste a post of my friend here for the benifit of all and to clear their doubts if ANY.In china they say one picture is equal to 1000 words,so go to part II now.

Part II begins,simple copy paste of his post at one of 's group.

--------------+++++++++++++++++--------------------++++++++++++++

 

Someone calls it hoax,some calls me cheat but the real explanation I

am giving in a scientific way is below.

Mind you no tricks used here,it is just appearing because of ghost

thumbail in the memory card,let me explain.(Also search google with

wrong thumbnail images and ghost thumbnail).

First go to this official website of Shri Somnath Temple.

somnath.org

Now go to somnath.org/PHOTO-GALARY.html

Original shot which you all saw was this of Shri Shivling of

Somnathji. somnath.org/photo/40.jpg

 

And the one which is appearing in Thumbnail is this one-

>somnath.org/photo/16.jpg which is known as Balramji ki gufa

(cave)

Now why this happened?Photographer who took all photos then formated

his memory card mostly to save space so while downloading original

shot the 2nd shot's thumbnail appeared as a ghost image.

Story is not over yet,just again visit to photo gallery of ShRi

Somnath temple and see how many shots photographer has captured and

uploaded there,one can check exif data to check same camera he used

which is Fuji digital cam!!But interesting thing to note is only that

shot appeared as a ghost image and no other,why???Science has no

answer to that!!

One more thing which you all perhaps missed,Somnath is the place where

lord Krishna got Nirvana and went to heaven(check offical site for

more references)which is known as "Dehotsarg Tirth" in Somnath.Somnath

is the ONLY place where one can see Shiva and Vaishnav Sampradaya

meeting togather.

Now go to this enlarged version of Thumbnail is see the magic....

aycu28.webshots.com/image/35027/2001449304492445724_rs.jpg

 

Same thumbnail you saw earlier right but in a small size,I have just

enlarged it here,watch the legs of statue there and they are crossed!!

Same mudra we use to see of Lord Krishna when he blows his fluet,that

means because of this ghost thumbnail we manged to see Lord Rama or Narsimha(vishny avtaar) or Lord Krishna or Shri Hanumanji in Shivling itself!!

I end this topic here with all clarifications,if science can tell me

why no other image appeared as ghost thumbnail I shall be grateful because that photographer has captured many images and all of them are listed in photo gallery of Shri Somnath Temple's website.

Om Namah Shivay.May god bless us all.Thanks

-----------------

May God bless you all,

Warm regards from

Hindustani.

[deepa.bhandari]

Dear Jai,

 

Logic and Science are only the media He chose for the manifestation of His creation.

 

What you are pointing at, are very ordinary aspects. Many have witnessed unexplained miracles, and since I have too (in case of shri shirdi sai), I do not need God to perform any miracle to prove His existence. My Faith, that God IS, stands firm and undeterred.

 

Best Wishes

Deepa:)

[hindustani]

 

I do not need God to perform any miracle to prove His existence

Absolutely right Deepaji,no need as you said but the motto of this post was to show how one can see different Gods(if one wish to see) out of image of Shivlinga,thats all.

[bhaktajan]

[hindustani]

bhaktajanji

That is a shivlinga at Shri Somnath temple,same what we just discussed in above message.

[bhairo]

i had enough of this bullshit

shiva and vishnu and bramha are one in the vedas the paramatma is the supreme which is bramha,vishnu,and shiva as well as the shakti's in one.

the vedas say that if a person see's them as seperate and agrue which one is greater they are fools and would never see his face.

why a u agruing about who is better but i guess its the kal yug.

 

people dont make our beautifull culture lik that of christians were roman catholics are fighting the anglicans and they are fighting the rest.

 

come on man we have more important things to do.