Is Lord Shiva a demi-god?

[GreatGod Rudra]

This whole discussion has been started with a malicious intent by a member of the minority Vaishnava sect, probably belong to the idiot-family of the sect i.e. ISKCON. Having now proved a point that Lord Shiva is the supreme God in whom Vishnu is contained, I bid adieu. But some of the readings and counter-arguments proved tremendous reading, apart from good mirth. I would only hope that some of the most educated members of this group think of Hinduism as a whole rather than worrying and reassuring their own doubts that Vishnu is supreme.

[supercow]

No demi-god/god who wears cobras all around his body is great. Perhaps supreme in another way.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

No demi-god/god who wears cobras all around his body is great. Perhaps supreme in another way.

 

What a display of ignorance, you are an embarrassment to Hindu Dharma,

Perhaps you never noticed Lord Narayan lying on Adisesh nag with thousand of hoods, if you did you would never make such a stupid statement.

Jai Shree Krishna

[bhairo]

 

No demi-god/god who wears cobras all around his body is great. Perhaps supreme in another way.

 

super is more like old bat.

you are a waste of time lord shiva is not a snake charma.

he is the supreme who would love and care for every living thing including snakes he is the guru of this world.

[supercow]

I apologize if I offended your sensibilities.

 

I believe Shiva is the personification of the Evil Force. Something alluded to in Star Wars playfully as the Dark Force. Anyone who uses this force sinfully is subject to punishment.

[Dark Warrior]

Idiots should stop insulting or disrespecting Shiva here and calling him evil. He is not god, but he certainly is a bhakta of Narayana.

 

 

. To conveniently say that Hari is the indweller (!) as counter for every proof presented doesn't impress or convince anyone.

 

Like I said before, Brihadaranyaka Upanishad clearly mentions that Brahman is the indweller of all entities. And if you refer to my earlier post, I have proven without a doubt that Vishnu is Supreme.

 

When it is proven that all devas are the limbs of Vishnu, and that Purusha Suktam clearly says Lakshmipathi is Brahman, it follows that we need pramans to prove that this Brahman is the indweller of Rudra. It is certainly mentioned that Rudra worships someone in the cave of his heart, and that he gets his Rudratva by meditating on Vishnu.

 

 

In the laghunyasam, prior to chanting Sri Rudram, one has to chant the following verse to state in which part of the body Vishnu is invoked..."padayoh vishnus-tishathu..." ....Enough said.

 

Like I said, just because something is chanted in a Shiva temple, it doesn't make it right. If you want to prove Rudra is supreme, please provide me pramanas by following all the steps I outlined.

 

Vishnu is mentioned as unborn, whereas Rudra is clearly mentioned to have been born from Narayana.

 

 

The Narayana Suktam, as the "Purusha Suktam" has been corrupted by vaishnavites to include "...sa shiva" (not part of the original vedic verse) to indicate that Shiva is included within Vishnu...which is obviously far from the truth. Sri Rudram emphatically states that Vishnu is contained within Lord Shiva.

 

What a nice reversal of truth. Actually, the verse is Sa Brahma Sa Siva Sa Indra. Narayana is Brahma, Siva, Indra. Some zealots interpolated this with Sa Hari, to make it look like Hari is just one of the gods. However, if you include Sa Hari, the metre of the hymn falls, and hence it is an interpolation. This is verified by unbiased scholars.

 

Sa Siva does not cause the metre to fall and it is consistent with the theme of the hymn. Hence, it is completely genuine.

 

Sri Rudram praises Rudra as Lord, and then, following the sarira/sariri model, addresses Brahman, ie, Vishnu. Provide pramanas to show otherwise.

 

 

Yajur Veda's identity flows from Sri Rudram and the SivaPanchakshara. Among the Vidyas, the Vedas are supreme; in the Vedas, the Sri Rudram is supreme; in the Sri Rudram the Sri Shivapanchakshari Mantram 'NA-MA-SI-VA-YA' is supreme; in the Mantra the two syllabled 'SI-VA' is supreme.

 

 

Are you aware that Vaishnavas regularly chant Sri Rudram? Only, we know what it really means, and attribute it to Vishnu.

 

Like I mentioned before, quoting a few isolated verses that Rudra is Supreme, Vayu is Supreme, etc. does not make that deity Brahman. Follow a philosophy, then apply that philosophy to understand the Vedas.

 

Even if you come up with a pramana that says 'Mahadeva with 3 eyes is Supreme', I can explain it by the sarira/sariri model. Unless you explain exactly why Rudra has a birth, disappears during pralaya, etc. you cannot claim he is supreme.

 

 

As by pouring water at the root of a tree, all its branches are nourished, so also by pleasing Sri Rudra through Rudra Japa, all the Devas are pleased. This is the best atonement (Prayaschittam) for all sins and the foremost 'Sadhana' for attainment of cherished desires.

 

Correction. By pleasing Brahman through Sri Rudra Japa, all devas are pleased. The hymn addresses Vishnu through Rudra. I have no problems chanting it.

 

 

 

Though Sri Rudram forms part of Karma Kanda, it ranks at par with the Upanishads of the Jnana Kanda and hence is also referred to as “Rudropanishad” and it’s reference is found in glowing terms in the Jabala Upanishad and Kaivalya Upanishad.

 

Kaivalya Upanishad is not authentic. There are 10 canonical Upanishads, with 3 more regarded as authentic. I could quote a 'Trivikrama Upanishad' if I wanted to. But I don't because its spurious as well.

 

In any case, Vaishnavas fully agree that Sri Rudram is a beautiful hymn. It not only invokes Lord Sankarshana, the indweller of Rudra, but also presents the philosophy of Brahman being the soul of everything admirably.

 

 

As it is seen in all the 101 Shakhas or branches of the Yajurveda, it is called 'Satarudriyam'. Satarudriyam is an instrument of Moksha Sadhana in the lore of Upanishads. It is stated “Sarvopanisadam Saro Rudradhyaayam” i.e. “The essence of all Upanishads is Rudropanishat”. In Maha Bharata in Drona Anushasinika parva, the Sata Rudropanishat is very much extolled. When Sage Yagnavalkya was asked by his disciples as to which portion of the Veda conferred most benefits on a devotee on it’s recitation, he referred unhesitatingly to the Sri Rudram. He said “Surapa ssvarnahari Rudra Japi Yati sthatah/ Sahasra Sheersajapica Mucyate Sarva Kilbisaih”. In Jabalopanishat, sage Yajnavalkya stated to the Brahmacharis that by performing Satarudriya Japa and also with homam, one will become immortal.

 

Still doesn't prove Rudra is supreme.You have not quoted one pramana to even refute my points. Satapatha Brahmana settles the matter once and for all.

 

 

In Kaivalyopanishat it is stated that the person who studies Satarudriyam will be purified by Agni and in Smrutis it is stated that the person who regularly recites will obtain liberation. It is also said that “Prayatah praruthaya ya dadheete vishmpate / Pranjalih Satarudriyam Nashya kin cha na durlabham” . Translated, it means “By constant effort if a person stands facing Lord Surya with folded hands and chants Shata Rudriyam there will be nothing impossible for him.” In Kurmapurana, Lord Krishna under took Pasupata Diksha for one year and smearing ash on his entire body, recited the Sri Rudram. Any one, in any state of life, at any time, recites Satarudriyam daily, will cross the ocean of worldly life or at any time adorned with Bhasma (ash) and with great devotion recites Sri Rudram, will get Jnana (knowledge) by the grace of Lord Shiva. For those desirous of worldly pleasures and for obtaining liberation and purification during repentance there is no refuge other than Shatarudriyam. By reciting Sri Rudram, one will get easily the knowledge of Taraka Brahma Vidya. A verse in the Vayu Purana says:"Chamakam Namakam caiva Purusha Sooktham tathaiva ca / Nityam trayam prayunjano Brahmaloke mahiyate” . Translated, it means “A person reciting daily the Namakam, Chamakam and the Purusha Sooktam is honoured in the Brahma Loka." The Purusha Suktam referred to here is the unadulterated version that recognizes Lord Shiva as the supreme Brahman.

 

Vayu Purana, Kurma Purana are rajasic/tamasic and cannot be taken as authority. Kaivalya Upanishad is not authentic.

 

 

 

"Karanguli nakhothpanna narayana dasakrithi"

states the Sri Lalita Sahasranamam, which means "She who created the ten avatharas of Narayana from the tip of her nails". Enough said ? Or would the refutation be that Vishnu Sahasranamam is the only "true" sahasranamam?

 

It took Lord Shiva to explain that taking the name of Lord Rama 3 times is enough for the common man as that is equivalent to chanting the Vishnu Sahasranamam. Is that again, Vishnu speaking through Lord Shiva?

 

You got that right!! Lalita Sahasranama is spurious, just like Shiva Sahasranama, Ganesha Sahasranama, etc.

 

And yes, Shiva gave us the Rama nama. Which makes him, a bhakta of Narayana.

 

Why is Vishnu Sahasranama alone authentic? Because nobody has even quoted or commentated on those other sahasranama texts. From ancient times, everyone has only mentioned Sri Vishnu Sahasranama. Even the most devout shiva bhaktas of the 6th century AD, the nayanmars, have not quoted it.

 

Not even the Shaivites of the 10-12th centuries have even mentioned Shiva Sahasranama. Hence, it can safely be concluded that it is a late interpolation.

 

Vishnu Sahasranama is the genuine one. There are over 10 commentaries on it, and it is completely in agreement with Vedas. Other Sahasranama violate the Vedas. For instance, saying that Devi or Shakti is responsible for Narayana is against many Vedic verses claiming Narayana to be the Brahman and to have no cause.

 

 

 

Shiva-Shakti is the only truth. The non-recognition of the female principle within the Vaishnava sect is truly amazing.

 

Shiva and Shakti are jivas. Lakshmi Narayana is the only truth. Lakshmi too is a jiva, but a liberated one. Shiva and Shakti are still in samsara.

 

 

 

Advaitam is inclusive and liberates the godlike potential within human beings. Vaishnavism is exclusive.

 

As you can see, when all fails, Shaivites can only take resort in Advaita to say 'all gods are equal'. However, two things are overlooked, 1) Advaita was propagated by a Vaishnava only, ie, Sri Sankara, 2) Advaita has been defeated by Vishishtadvaita and Dvaita.

 

 

Plainly ISKCON is an embarassment to this family as they believe that Vishnu is the avatar of Krishna! ISKCON's founder tried to pitch Hinduism to the world by trying to identify one God that can compete with the one God of Christianity and Islam. And has now caused the raise of this sect that embarasses and makes the Vaishnava family squirm by making it's ridiculous claims ! ISKCON is the idiot-child of the Vaishnava family.

 

Nobody cares about ISKCON. I am talking serious here.

 

 

 

 

Being a smartha, I worship Vishnu too as I do Devi, Ganesha, Surya, Muruga apart from the Great God Rudra.

Only praying to Lord Shiva and chanting of the Sri Rudram can grant one moksha, which is the goal of every Hindu. Chanting of the Devi Mahatmyam is equally beneficial, if one has diksha in the Navakshari mantra. The Devi Mahatmyam states clearly that Vishnu's slumber or yoga-nidra is caused and controlled by Shakti !!

 

Being a smartha, you should know that your own guru, Sri Adi Sankara never asked his followers to worship Shiva. Your rituals being with Narayana smaranam and end with Sarvam Sri Krishnarpanam.

 

 

 

All the great saints who have saved Hinduism have been worshippers of Lord Shiva and Shakti - be it Adi Shankaracharya rescuing India from Buddhism or Vivekanananda making Indian spiritualism known to the world through his worship of Shiva-Shakti.

 

Very funny. He has convieniently ignored other great sages like Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhva.

 

 

 

 

Fact of the matter is : Vaishnavism is a minority. Like all minorities, they tend to chest beat. May Lord Shiva grant them moksha through his divine grace. By trying to pooh-pooh Lord Shiva, Dark Warrior has taken his name so many times ! Vipirita Bhakti !

 

Fact of the matter is: The average Hindu worships every god, invented or vedic, with no knowledge of philosophy or scripture. If you eliminate the number of the ignoramuses in the Hindu faith, then the numbers of true Vedantins come down drastically.

 

I respect Shiva as an enlightened Bhakta. He is not god and the Vedas do not say he is.

 

 

 

 

My respect is for Dark Warrior is only for his extent of reading and knowledge, which he has slanted to brain-wash himself as have his sect's members. I only hope that with time and age, he gets true understanding and knowledge. I am confident, that if he continues seeking true knowledge, he will find that it at the feet of the Great God Rudra.

 

Sri SadasShivaarpanamastu !

 

Well, considering that you have not yet answered one single question, it seems like you are content to dwell on your 'Sri Rudram' (and even that is a Vaishnavite hymn). Anytime you feel like establishing your point by following the methodology I gave you in my earlier post, feel free to post.

[Ashok009]

Hindus on this forum have proved to me that they are a bunch of blithering idiots, imagine how much time has been spent here on this forum on who is greater and who is right or wrong....none of these so called well read idiots really know anything....this text said this or the other text said that.......so how does anyone know that one text is real vs. the other...just cause a text is not mentioned 1000 years ago does not make is false or merely if a text is mentioned many times makes it real.....what is the end game here...who is greater....my dear friends when u question or even argue these things out u have already fallen into the pits of hell.....Shiv, Vishnu, Ram, Sakthi are all manifestations of the same origin...that origin is nirakar....has not been written in a tex but can be experienced yourself....i am sure if God was to come and meet one of the souls on this website in person you would question his authenticity....cause your brains overwork.....evrything has to go in that pea sized brain of yours and can never go through.....another thing that this discussion has proved to me is the reason why so many ofreign powers ruled India for centuries together....cause we are lke animals....fight and argue over everything and have no respect for anyone.....to think Vishnu is greater than Shiv or vice versa is committing a karma that will sure burn many people in hellll..rest assured.....one of the most important things in our religion is tolerance and respect for all......you can quote all what you want....you can quote all what you THINK you know but that does not change a simple fact......that god has to be experienced...u can experinece him through many forms....and that experience my friends can never be had from reading texts.....remember texts again whether written today or 10,000 years ago is someones thought process....u as indiviuals have capability to write such millions of text with a billion times more complexity....but that is not the objective...use thisenergy in you to guide u towards God...and he will come and touch u in some form or the other...he will manifest through somone or through some incident in your life...just to touch u....just to remind u that he is there and loves u .......but when u invent negativity like this stupid discussion u r invitingblack enerygy...so what will u say when u go to God on the day of your judgment....Shiva followers and Vishnu follwers will go to their Gods and say - God we arugued and fought over who is supreme.....God I argued and defened that u r supreme as compared to vishnu or to Shiv......and to that God will say - my son but after that did u try to expeince me thru Shiv or Vishnu...did u try to understand the essence of Shiv and Vishnu.....think people think....dont waste your time on this discussion...respect all.......tolerate all...bring simplicity in your sprituality,......dont indulge in these stupid questions as they have no end and no goal....decide for your self.......Jai Sri Ram

[hindustani]

Very well Said Ashokji,if any sence prevails one should stop arguing in this thread else like what you have mentioned will sure going to happen.Let's leave them on their fate,we tried our best in the most polite and practical way but we cannot change the fortune,I rest my case here in this thread.

[ranjeetmore]

dear asoka,

The vedas are 'apaurusheya'.They HAVE NT BEEN WRITTEN BY ANY1.The vedic knwldge is eternal.It is nt mutilated,interpolated in any way.Simply becoz the vedas r so holy 4 the hindus that they CANNOT dare to change them.

Also,the vedas folow 'paroksh vaad'.

At 1 plce,the ved wil say 1 thing and then a cmpletely difrnt thing elsewhere.Vedvyas declared,''oh humans,do not read the vedas! Vidhi(lord brahma) couldnt understand them,so u wil only ruin ur intelligence by trying to read them.''

At another place vedvyas says that the ved is bhagvad swarup and only the vedas knw brahm.

So hw are these pple quoting profusely frm the vedas ?...is the real question v shud be asking.

Its ok till 1 point,bt then 1 smarta 'thinks' that 1 veda mantra was smething difrent originally and he declares that another sect has manipulated the veda .He is clearly applying his material intellect to the subject.YOU CANNOT SPECULATE IN MATTERS OF THE VEDAS ! The knwledge of the vedas emerged when the 1st purusha incarnation exaled.It is Brahm-shvas.The knwledge is divine.It has to be understood via a realisd mahatma.Kshotriya Brahm nisht mahapurush.

 

Eg...suta gosvami taught maharaj parikshit.

Narada taught veda vyas.

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Washing one face of Vishnu and spiting on his other face.

 

 

Hi Supercow,

 

Are you originally a cristian? I am curious to know because cristians have the same prejudice towards snakes , as you , as snake has a evil connotation in that religion. (Satan came as a serpant to corrept Eve) I have met Cristisans who showed this prejudised negative reaction to live snakes. They think snakes are evil creatures.

 

In Hinduism there is no such negative connotation. Snake is a holy symbol. Kundalini Shakti , which is a spiritual energy, is represented as a snake. Hindus Worship Snake.

 

Hence wearing a snake is not some thing negative or evil in Hinduism It is the most holy thing .

 

Even if you are not a Cristian , you still could havev other sourses of prejudices. You could have acquired from prejudiced stories and movies.

Star war and other such movies are made by cristians who fundamentally think that all other religions and gods are satanic in any case.

 

Your feeling that Siva is evil is completely a wrong prejudiced view. He is just the Opposite. He is the Good principle incarnet. The word meaning of 'Siva' in sancrit, is Auspiciousness, Good. He is a destroyer of all evils.

Rudra is highly adored in Veda.

 

I dont know which god you worship now? But assuming you are now a Vishnavate, note Krishna has a viswarupa form - (Universal form - shown to Arjuna) In that form he has ananda (infinite) heads ( some consider it to be be 1000 head, but technically ananda is infinity not thousand). Every god's face appears as a face of krisna in this form. One of the head is Siva's head.

Hence worshiping Vishnu and dispising Siva - or any other god for that matter - is equivlant of doing abhishaka (wahing with pure holy water) Vishnus one face while spitting on Vishnu's other face.

 

 

Dont foolishly hope for your salvation for you with that kind of act of Spiting on one face of Vishnu.

 

Here is the dictum form "horse mouth" on this issue:

 

Siva Ninda is the greatest sin. There is no salvation for any one who commits it even by million and millions of yagas, and other meritorious deeds. Vishnu will not grace that fool even if such a fool worship Vishnu for ananda kalpa ( infinite Kalpas) . Ignorance is no escuse for such a grave sin.

- Hayagriva upadesa sutra.

 

(Hayagriva is one of visnu's form with a horse head - a teacher incornate).

 

K.Ravindran

[ranjeetmore]

hey,the guy who just wrote the post b4 ashok...A-M-Azing ! ! !

I personaly cudnt hav put words in even close to what u hav done...unless,the gr8 god rudra replies along the lines of acepting Sri purusha sukta as it is,i dnt think u shud take him seriously.

Although i am nt an iskcon folower,i dnt knw why u shud say that no

1 cares bout iskcon.I hav all the reverence in the world 4 srila prabhupad....he's 1 of the nitya siddhas.

[ranjeetmore]

in the previous post i meant to say,

''u shud NOT take him seriously.''

And supercrow,come on...grow up...by offending param bhagvata,lord shiva,ur only bringing ur own demise...its actualy vrv sad 4 vaishnavas.they smetimes unitentionaly ofend shiva and so do shaivites ofend vishnu.Bt bhagvan Himself states that He may 4giv ofense at His holy feet bt nt against His bhakta...v r doomed,oh vaishnav brethren..lol.

[ranjeetmore]

theres 1 litle snag i came across...shiva shakti are jeevas..?

Thats seriously a tad bit stretching of the reality.

Shiva or shankar or i dnt knw wich 1 is definitely nt jiva tattva...There is the mahesa dham beyond the material jagat,mahat...Shiva is the embodiment of qualites which cme to bout 86% of divinity.lord Brahma is 74%.so also are jeevas,bt their qualities are suppresed...Sri Narayana ? Do u hav to ask -96%.

100% is who ? Govinda of course.

Note percentage implies presence of qualities.This doesnt mean that Sri narayana is less powerful.He just doesnt display those powers(e.g. Display of Leela ).Just as Brhamjyoti doesnt display any power at all.Only Satta is there.Brahmjyoti is udaaseen...it doesnt do anything..

[Amlesh]

 

ramanujacharya [jagadguru]

prabhupada[1000 jagadgurus]

 

prabhupada is 1000 times better than ramanujacharya? please provide some data to support this. your personal sentiment is not acceptable data.

 

He didn't mean that, you've perceived it in some other way. Your comparative mechanism is wrong.

 

There won't be any further addition on my behalf, I know you are intelligent to draw the right meaning.

[ranjeetmore]

it is the same tattva

Brahm-paramatma-bhagvan.

 

Read.

The spiritual effulgence emanating frm lord Govinda-

Sri Narayana in the superexcellent vaikunthas-

Sri Shyamsundara.

 

All 3 are indifferent.But due to retention or display of sme powers,they appear different.

Brahm doesnt display aishwarya or leela madhurya.

Vaikunthas dont enshrine leela madhurya.They hav opulence.grandeur.

Goloka displays the ultimate form of madhurya rasa...eg...the rasa displayd by gopis of vraja...Shankara pleaded his wife to dress him up as a gopi and take him to rasa lila.Parvati relented and thus shiva is cald as gopesvara...he was so anxious to becme a gopi,..becoz thats the highest,unimaginable state of love of Godhead...

Lord Govinda had a good chuckle at the bearded 'gopi' bt obviously aceptd him in the lila.

[ranjeetmore]

thank u amlesh 4 putting words frm my mind in ur post..,

Jai siya Ram...

Tulsidas gosvami says,

Taraee na !Bin Seye mam swami..

Ram namami namami namami.

 

Its my challenge,gosvami says,that NO ONE can cross the material ocean of birth and death without serving his master,Sri Ramacandra.

[ranjeetmore]

he further describes Parabhramn,

''Ram hai naam tumhar,

Vachan agochar buddhi para...

Binu hari bhajan na bhav tareeya,

Yeh siddhant apela.''

That brahmn's name is Sri Ram.He is BEYOND your buddhi ! Do nt try to understand Him with ur intellect !

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Hi All,

Sigmund Freud has an excellent observation to make on love. Which throughs light on what is happening on this forum.

 

If some one is in love the thing they love is blotted out of proposion. The object on which libido is cathexed (invested) swells. This observation can easily be verified with people in love. For a man who is in love his beloved is a beauty quin and an angel . But for all others she is very ordinary and even ugly, and very ordinary in morals too -nothing angelic. A women who loves a man describes him to be very special , very intellegent - an Einstin, but for all others he ramain to be very ordinary and foolish even.

 

This is the alchemy of love. It blots the object.

 

You all must have heard the story of Laila and Majunu? For Majunu Laila was the most beautiful women - (Actually she was supposed to be ugly) .

 

There is another story of Agbar and Birbal which demonstrates this principle:

Once Agbar and Birbal were taking a strole in the busy market place, where they found a women weeping and pleeding for help. Akbar asked what was the matter . The women said that she lost her baby in the crowd. She pledded to find her baby. Akbar asked for the description of the child . She described it part by part vividly. It turned out to be a stunningly beautiful baby - extreemly good looking. Then akbar asked his attendends to search for such a baby. Every body failed to locate her baby. there was no baby of the discription in the whole market place. Then birbal took up ther task himself and soon returned with a very ugly and dirty child, and gave it to the women She was on the top of the world - very happy and started fondling that very ugly and dirty child with superlative attributes.

 

Akbar was very purplexed . "She said it is a very beautiful baby but is is quite opposite in reality" how did you know that it is her baby? and how come she is giving false discription al the first place?". Birbal explained "My lord, For a crow its own baby is a golden baby". For a mother her own baby is very beautiful - the best.

 

There is another mechanism of love that Siogmund Freud reports. Libido is a limited energy and obeys the law of conservation. that is if a full amount of libidinal energy is to be cathexed on an object, then the energy must be withdrawn from elsewhere where it was previously cathexed, owing to limited and finate energy available. It is not possible to love equally every thing . Love energy is is not infinate, but finate. (this is called the economic principle of libido) This also can be easily verified . those who fell in love some time in ther llife can easily validate this truth. Recall when you fell in love with a person of opposite sex. If you introspect you would notice that at the same time you fell in love, your love towerds the previous people whome you loved before - like parrends or friends -reduced. They became less significant for you.

 

Love energy is limited. If you love one thing then that love must be withdrawn from other things.

 

This two laws of will explain what is happening in this forum. Vishnavite think their god is the greatest - (swelling of the amorous obljct ) - every religion thinks that way. Jews think YHVH or Adoni is the greatest and only god worthy of worship. Muslims think the same about Allah. Visnavite's demotion of all other gods as demigod status is the natural consiquence of the withdrawing of their libido from all other gods to place it on Vishnu. this is the same reaspon that many religions are prejudicied against other religions.

 

It is the sign of love sickness . This is the problem of every lover. Love is blind after all. Dont give too much importance than what it deserves.

 

Of course serious form of prejudices which are distructive in nature cannot be tollerated as that could lead to religious war and bloodshed . Earth has witnessed it before. We cannot allow our civilised and spiritual existence to be regressed to that kind of degradation.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Amlesh]

 

thank u amlesh 4 putting words frm my mind in ur post..,

Jai siya Ram...

Tulsidas gosvami says,

Taraee na !Bin Seye mam swami..

Ram namami namami namami.

 

Its my challenge,gosvami says,that NO ONE can cross the material ocean of birth and death without serving his master,Sri Ramacandra.

Satya Vachan.

 

It's truth to the highest perfection.

 

What you've said is the ultimate conclusion, to know it is something great, to experience it even greater, and to be His servant, we need his grace and the grace of his nears and dears.

 

Any words against Shiva will be taken into account by Sri Ram... Confirmed by Goswami Tulsidas.

 

"One cannot attain my grace, if there is despise for Shiva."

 

The same is for Shiva when Ram is not shown respect.

 

Jai Sita Ram.

Jai Sri Hanuman

[ranjeetmore]

and gr8 god rudra,hav u forgotten Lord Hanuman ? His service to Sri Bhagvan ? How he ripped his chest to show that he saw the entire world as Seeta Ram ?

Tulsidas describes how his spiritual master,Hanuman would simply see Sita Ram in every atom ! Hanuman wasnt hallucinating.he was seeing Godhead in His paramatma feature.evrywhere ! This is how he cud kill crores of pple.Tulsidas writes a beautiful verse in this regard.

And hanuman is nitya siddha.He is 4ever a servant of the Supreme lord.He is an incarnation of lord Shiva.You very well describe how the various incarnations worshipd lord Shiva.Apart frm being a leela of the Lord,did any of these incarnations tear their chest with yogmaya ?

Did any of these leave their wives,like lord shiva left sati,coz she was hindering his devotional process toward lord Ramachandra ? No.

[ranjeetmore]

keshavan,u you seek refuge in a empiric speculator's philosophy?..

I challenge sigmund freud's philosophy.

Love is never blind.You love sme1 becoz he/she gives you happiness..If ur mother wer to slap u today,wud u go and kiss her on the cheeks ? There is no unconditional love.And there is nothing cald as love energy.It is non existent,nt to say it is limited.When u r attachd to a person,u cal it love.Why this attachment? Bcoz that person gives u joy in return of happiness.Giv and take.Shaivites 'love' Rudra,shiva coz they see the destructive nature of the deity and r attractd to it.After all,tamo guni pple lik destruction.Similarly,pple 'love' other deities 4 their own beliefs.If that deity fits in that person's way of thinking,he is immediately attractd.But a certain handful of pple come across genuine mahatmas and the mahatma explains who is jeeva,brahm and maya.Nw that the persn knws who he is and what is his goal(brahm),he wil obviously work towards that goal. E.g...the followers of the 4 sampradayas.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Vishnavite think their god is the greatest - (swelling of the amorous obljct ) - every religion thinks that way. Jews think YHVH or Adoni is the greatest and only god worthy of worship. Muslims think the same about Allah. Visnavite's demotion of all other gods as demigod status is the natural consiquence of the withdrawing of their libido from all other gods to place it on Vishnu. this is the same reaspon that many religions are prejudicied against other religions.

 

It is the sign of love sickness . This is the problem of every lover. Love is blind after all. Dont give too much importance than what it deserves.

 

Sigmond Freud, Akbar and Birbal, etc. are quite irrelevant to the discussion.

 

Vaishnavas are Vaidikas, ie, those who follow the Vedas perfectly. If you do not have a pramana to refute the Vedic stance of Vishnu being Supreme, then do not post irrelevant banter.

 

And Ranjeetmore, please stop posting. In truth, you are not helping either Vaishnavism or Shaivism with your posts.

[ranjeetmore]

the mahatma explains,with the help of the ved,shastras,that jeeva is an ansh of jeeva vishisht brahm and being so,his goal is Ananda/brahm.

How to achieve ananda/brahm ?

The genuine mahatma says that witout the mercy of Brahm,maya cant be eliminatd and thus bhagvad jnyan cant be attained.

How to attain mercy of Bhagvan ?

By devotional service cald bhakti.

Any other process or way of thinking is just a concoction becoz Sri Bhagwan Himself confesses to Uddhav paramhamsa,that His 'vaani' i.e. 'Ved vaani' is meant to only point towards Him.Nothing else is given in the vedas,than the knwledge of Bhagwan.

Uddhav then enquires how so many beliefs and philosophies came about ?

Sri Bhagwan said,my ved vaani is transcendental,unfathomable.These pple took my vedic knwledge,twisted it and convertd it to for their own gain.Some were sattvic,some rajasic and others were tamasic.Depending on their nature,they took out the meaning of my transcendental knwledge in their own way.Thats y there are so many difrnt ways of religion

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Dark warrior,

Freud's theory , and Akbar-birbal stories , are not irrelevent for explaining human behaviour. They are very pertnant to throw light on how people behave. I am only using them to throw light on what is happening to the quality of the discussion in this so called spiritual forum. Rather than declaring my line of argument irrelevent show me with your rational argument how this is irrelevent and not applicasble to the behaviour of people in this forum. Geting angry is hardly the way of a discussion. Argue out your case man.

 

If you claim to follow vedas perfectly then do that perfectly. then you should be propounding Indra as the greatest god Every other are demigods.

 

Shall we have a desent discussion on Veda? A true true Vedic discussion. I am ready for that stuff. No freud, no Akbar nothing else othewrthan the Veda. Are you ready? Only Veda .No purana and all that stuff.

 

Ravindran

[Amlesh]

 

Dear Dark warrior,

Freud's theory , and Akbar-birbal stories , are not irrelevent for explaining human behaviour. They are very pertnant to throw light on how people behave. I am only using them to throw light on what is happening to the quality of the discussion in this so called spiritual forum. Rather than declaring my line of argument irrelevent show me with your rational argument how this is irrelevent and not applicasble to the behaviour of people in this forum. Geting angry is hardly the way of a discussion. Argue out your case man.

 

If you claim to follow vedas perfectly then do that perfectly. then you should be propounding Indra as the greatest god Every other are demigods.

 

Shall we have a desent discussion on Veda? A true true Vedic discussion. I am ready for that stuff. No freud, no Akbar nothing else othewrthan the Veda. Are you ready? Only Veda .No purana and all that stuff.

 

Ravindran

 

What will happen to me, I'll have to eat peanuts,Popcorn and watch you two:(.

 

I've never read the Vedas.