Is Lord Shiva a demi-god?

[SuraSamharam]

Vaishnavites,Shaivites - I can just see that the British technique of dividing our religions and people is still deep seated in your minds.

 

Hari = Hara

Hara = Hari

 

Human beings are like lizard besides a illuminating bulb - the lizard understands when there is light and when there isnt but does not understand how electricity is produced.

 

Same will all of your who wish to remove hari from hara, and hara from hari.

 

Shiva is love.

Vishnu is love.

 

They are both supreme, but their duties vary.

So god is love.

 

Do not use second hand knowledge from the Vedas.

For those vaishnavites got to a shiva temple and pray to him, you will feel him,

 

For the Shivites, got to a Vishnu temple and see the majestic form of vishnu and you will feel his grace.

 

You need both eyes to see, not just one.

 

Om tat sat.

[Amlesh]

 

Vaishnavites,Shaivites - I can just see that the British technique of dividing our religions and people is still deep seated in your minds.

 

Hari = Hara

Hara = Hari

 

Human beings are like lizard besides a illuminating bulb - the lizard understands when there is light and when there isnt but does not understand how electricity is produced.

 

Same will all of your who wish to remove hari from hara, and hara from hari.

 

Shiva is love.

Vishnu is love.

 

They are both supreme, but their duties vary.

So god is love.

 

Do not use second hand knowledge from the Vedas.

For those vaishnavites got to a shiva temple and pray to him, you will feel him,

 

For the Shivites, got to a Vishnu temple and see the majestic form of vishnu and you will feel his grace.

 

You need both eyes to see, not just one.

 

Om tat sat.

 

For your 1st post, you came like a hurricane.

 

Cheers Dude.

 

(Om namo Bhagvate Vasudevaya

Shiva Shiva Shiva, Om namah Shivaya)

[cbrahma]

 

Vaishnavites,Shaivites - I can just see that the British technique of dividing our religions and people is still deep seated in your minds.

 

Hari = Hara

Hara = Hari

 

Human beings are like lizard besides a illuminating bulb - the lizard understands when there is light and when there isnt but does not understand how electricity is produced.

 

Same will all of your who wish to remove hari from hara, and hara from hari.

 

Shiva is love.

Vishnu is love.

 

They are both supreme, but their duties vary.

So god is love.

 

Do not use second hand knowledge from the Vedas.

For those vaishnavites got to a shiva temple and pray to him, you will feel him,

 

For the Shivites, got to a Vishnu temple and see the majestic form of vishnu and you will feel his grace.

 

You need both eyes to see, not just one.

 

Om tat sat.

Siva is Vaisnava. He worships Visnu.

 

Devotee (3): I've got him to accept that Lord Siva is devotee of Krishna, but there's no practical instruction in his worldly activities coming.

Prabhupada: No, vaishnavanam yatha sambhuh: "Amongst the Vaishnavas, Sambhu, Lord Siva, is the greatest Vaishnava." So we worship Lord Siva as Vaishnava. We gives respect to Vaishnavas. So why not Lord Siva? Lord Siva is a big Vaishnava. But generally, the devotees of Lord Siva, they take Lord Siva is independent God. That is offensive. If you know that Lord Siva is also a devotee, you can give more respect to Lord Siva. Krishna will be pleased. Devotee (3): Shrila Prabhupada, he does not chant Hare Krishna, he chants Om Namah Shivaya

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Devotee (3): It's all right?

Prabhupada: He will gradually become devotee. When God, Lord Siva, will be pleased upon him, he will advise to worship.

Devotee (3): He is already trying to tell him to follow in your footsteps surely, so just before I left he said he will try once again to chant sixteen rounds of japa, Hare Krishna. He has tried already. He has a taste for...

Prabhupada: If he simply understands that Lord Siva is a Vaishnava and if he worships Lord Siva, then he will get the benefit.

[Dark Warrior]

cBrahma, the Puranas are revealed by Brahma. So, Brahma, owing to his long life, often gets mixed up with chronology and sometimes, the details of Puranas vary, due to Yuga Bheda.

 

That is why some portions of Krishna Leela in Vishnu Purana do not match the Bhagavatam. Because, it may pertain to a Krishna avatara in different Yugas, and the Lord may have performed His pastimes differently in these Yugas. Of Course, to nastikas, this means 'interpolation'....to any logical believer, this explanation is acceptable.

 

Now, Bhagavatam says, 'Shiva is a Vaishnava'. But we cannot worship Shiva because we do not know whether this verse pertains to this Yuga's Shiva, or to a Shiva of another Yuga. Yes, there have been many Rudras in previous Yugas who were great Bhagavatas, and had attained moksha.

 

But the reason why I suspect that this verse does not pertain to the current Rudra is simply because he has not done much to become the greatest Vaishnava. Apart from composing a few stotras in praise of the Lord, Shiva has sometimes rebelled against Vishnu (as in Banasura episode) and has also considered himself as Supreme at times. Therfore, it isn't necessary to worship this Rudra. He may be Vaishnava, but he is not a Bhagavata.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

There is a strong desire by many to dominate being 'right'. We can see this again and again. Yet many times this 'right' is not built upon personal experience, but by what others have told the individual, or what was taught. With that, there is little flexibility to reason - this is the root of jalpa no doubt 'argumentative debate' with no concern of the outcome - it can bring only this poison. I pray Lord Shiva to save me from this.

 

yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu

yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha

tasmai rudrAya namo astu

 

Prostrations to that Rudra who exists in fire, water, and air, herbs and all the worlds

 

 

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

 

 

 

 

 

How can any one take you seriously in what you have to say? Vedas are given to us by Brahma but then you say, <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Brahma, owing to his long life, often gets mixed up with chronology and sometimes, the details of Puranas vary, due to Yuga Bheda. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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If Brahma is prone to make mistake what chance have you got to tell us the truth. Ved Vayas gave us many more puranas he has eulogised Lord Shiva as well as Lord Vishnu, as supreme but no we have to listen to your opinion and kill off Vedic gods.

 

 

Just contemplate what you write and I quote,

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>For instance Rudra possesses auspiciousness. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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And then you say

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Pramana - Read Shathapatha Brahmana. When Rudra was born, he cried to Brahma, asking him to remove his (Rudra's) sins. Only a jiva has sins. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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Can one who is all auspicious be sinful ? only one who has no shame conclude so, this is not my opinion but Bhagvat puran says so

 

SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma-, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

I take the words of Lord Shree Krishna, when asked by Arjun

(Therefore), You alone are able to fully describe Your own divine glories, the manifestations, by which You exist pervading all the universe. (10.16)

How may I know You, O Lord, by constant contemplation? In what form are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17)

Now you may argue or interpret however you want but is clear to anyone who is honest and neutrals that lord Krishna is responding to this question, and here what he says.

The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19)

O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20)

We all know who brings forward the beginning , middle and end, just for you in case we are reading different Shastra.

S.B 8.7.23 O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

 

I am Vishnu among the (twelve) sons of Aditi, I am the radiant sun among the luminaries, I am Marici among the gods of wind, I am the moon among the stars. (10.21)

I am the Sama Veda among the Vedas; I am Indra among the Devas; I am the mind among the senses; I am the consciousness in living beings. (10.22)

Note; indra among devas where do you get jiva?

I am Shiva among the Rudras; (I am) Kubera among the Yakshas and demons; I am the fire among the Vasus; and I am Meru among the mountain peaks. (10.23)

Kill them off if you like call them jiva but I take Krishna’s words any time no where in Gita he has called them Jiva.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Dark Warrior]

 

Pranam

 

There is a strong desire by many to dominate being 'right'. We can see this again and again. Yet many times this 'right' is not built upon personal experience, but by what others have told the individual, or what was taught. With that, there is little flexibility to reason - this is the root of jalpa no doubt 'argumentative debate' with no concern of the outcome - it can bring only this poison. I pray Lord Shiva to save me from this.

 

Very Good.

 

 

 

[uOTE

Prostrations to that Rudra who exists in fire, water, and air, herbs and all the worlds

 

 

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

 

Rudra simply means 'One who destroys evil'. It does not denote the Mahadeva here. So, this means Rudra is another name of Vishnu. So stop bringing these old arguments here.

 

The Rudra who was born to Brahma has clearly been mentioned to be a Jiva in Shathapatha Brahmana. Hence, any quotations that Rudra is Supreme simply means, 'The one who destroys evil is supreme'. We take 'Rudra' as a common noun. And Vishnu certainly can destroy evil.

 

Supremacy of Vishnu is established by the fact that:

 

1) There is a creation account of Rudra, which says that Rudra is a Jiva. No creation account for Vishnu.

 

2) Purusha Suktam mentions that the wives of the Purusha are Sri and Hri. This is an allusion to Lakshmi and Bhu Devi, the consorts of Vishnu.

 

3) 'Of Devas, Agni is lowest and Vishnu is highest', 'Om Tad Vishnoh Parama Padam', etc. prove Vishnu is supreme.

 

4) Narayana is proclaimd by the Vedas as the Brahman, and who existed even before Shiva and Brahma.

 

5) 'Narayana' is a proper noun and is inseparably linked with 'Vishnu', according to Panini's grammatical treatise.

 

 

 

 

 

How can any one take you seriously in what you have to say? Vedas are given to us by Brahma but then you say, <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Brahma, owing to his long life, often gets mixed up with chronology and sometimes, the details of Puranas vary, due to Yuga Bheda. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

If Brahma is prone to make mistake what chance have you got to tell us the truth. Ved Vayas gave us many more puranas he has eulogised Lord Shiva as well as Lord Vishnu, as supreme but no we have to listen to your opinion and kill off Vedic gods.

 

Brahma is a Jiva. He may be wiser than us, but he is not faultless.

 

The Puranas categorise themselves as Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. Brahma, in his sattvik periods, tells the truth and extolls Vishnu. In his rajasic and tamasic moods, he gives misleading Puranas.

 

 

 

Just contemplate what you write and I quote,

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>For instance Rudra possesses auspiciousness. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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And then you say

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Pramana - Read Shathapatha Brahmana. When Rudra was born, he cried to Brahma, asking him to remove his (Rudra's) sins. Only a jiva has sins. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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Can one who is all auspicious be sinful ? only one who has no shame conclude so, this is not my opinion but Bhagvat puran says so

 

 

Nice logic. But consider this - Ganeshprasad is a very kind person. But he is also dumb. So, similarly, Rudra is very auspicious and he also has some faults - namely, anger and cruelty.

 

Rudra's auspiciousness is obtained from Vishnu. But Vishnu, being Brahman, has auspiciousness, intelligence, aiswarya and many qualities that Rudra doesn't have. And Vishnu is also Nirguna, ie, no bad qualities.

 

Rudra has auspiciousness, but he doesn't have Brahma's intelligence. Brahma has intelligence, but he lacks the aiswarya of Indra. Only Vishnu, who is Brahman, possesses all traits like auspiciousness, aiswarya, intelligence, etc.

 

 

SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma-, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam has been commentated on by so many Vaishnava acharyas, and none of them saw the text as depicting Rudra as supreme. So shut it.

I take the words of Lord Shree Krishna, when asked by Arjun

(Therefore), You alone are able to fully describe Your own divine glories, the manifestations, by which You exist pervading all the universe. (10.16)

How may I know You, O Lord, by constant contemplation? In what form are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17)

Now you may argue or interpret however you want but is clear to anyone who is honest and neutrals that lord Krishna is responding to this question, and here what he says.

The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19)

O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20)

We all know who brings forward the beginning , middle and end, just for you in case we are reading different Shastra.

S.B 8.7.23 O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahm

ā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

 

I am Vishnu among the (twelve) sons of Aditi, I am the radiant sun among the luminaries, I am Marici among the gods of wind, I am the moon among the stars. (10.21)

I am the Sama Veda among the Vedas; I am Indra among the Devas; I am the mind among the senses; I am the consciousness in living beings. (10.22)

Note; indra among devas where do you get jiva?

I am Shiva among the Rudras; (I am) Kubera among the Yakshas and demons; I am the fire among the Vasus; and I am Meru among the mountain peaks. (10.23)

Kill them off if you like call them jiva but I take Krishna’s words any time no where in Gita he has called them Jiva.

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

 

Interesting. Krishna also says,

 

'Among fishes, I am the Shark'.

 

So, is the Shark a worshippable God now?

 

Understand that in this context, Krishna was simply saying that whatever glory exists in this world, it is merely due to Him. Among Rudras, Sankara is most powerful. So Sankara represents Krishna. Among Yakshas, Kubera is best, so Kubera is Krishna. Among Fishes, Shark is most powerful. So Shark is Krishna.

 

Now, you may argue that He also says this, 'Among Warriors, I am Rama' and 'Among Adityas, I am Vishnu'. A few things need to be clarified here:

 

1) Rama is an avatar of Vishnu, and this has been substantiated by other texts. When the Lord takes an avatara, He enters His own creation and becomes part of His own glory. So, Krishna includes Rama here as well.

 

2) 'Among Adityas, I am Vishnu', again refers to an avatar of Vishnu named Vamana, who was Upendra (younger brother of Indra) and hence an Aditya. It doesn't refer to Lord Vishnu on the causal ocean.

 

So, according to your logic, all Devas are gods? So, we have 'gods' like Indra, who is full of traits like lust, greed and ego. Shiva and Brahma are more mature and wiser compared to devas like Indra, but they are Jivas as well.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

Rudra simply means 'One who destroys evil'. It does not denote the Mahadeva here. So, this means Rudra is another name of Vishnu. So stop bringing these old arguments here.

 

Why the truth is hurting? There are devas but there is only one Mahadeva. Problem with your argument is Rudra when extolled we will claim that to be Vishu, does not wash with me. People like you claim all names belong to Vishnu but if I ask you to chant those names then it would be big silence.

 

 

The Rudra who was born to Brahma has clearly been mentioned to be a Jiva in Shathapatha Brahmana. Hence, any quotations that Rudra is Supreme simply means, 'The one who destroys evil is supreme'. We take 'Rudra' as a common noun. And Vishnu certainly can destroy evil.

 

Rudras appeared from the mind of Brahma, so did Vishnu appeared from his nose, you are proving nothing. Krishna takes birth Ram takes birth, so what, only our faulty understanding prevents us to see the truth.

 

 

Supremacy of Vishnu is established by the fact that:

 

Unlike you I am not doubting Lord Vishu.

 

 

 

 

Brahma is a Jiva. He may be wiser than us, but he is not faultless.

 

The Puranas categorise themselves as Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. Brahma, in his sattvik periods, tells the truth and extolls Vishnu. In his rajasic and tamasic moods, he gives misleading Puranas.

 

On this bases everything you write must be rejected, if there is any doubt in Lord Brahmas wisdom, then anything you have learned off him and his writing must be suspect.

 

 

 

 

Nice logic. But consider this - Ganeshprasad is a very kind person. But he is also dumb.

 

Now there is no need to get personal, dumb that I am but it is easy enough to see how wise you are, getting knowledge from faulty Brahma, your words not mine.

 

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam has been commentated on by so many Vaishnava acharyas, and none of them saw the text as depicting Rudra as supreme. So shut it.

 

Comments and opinions are based on doctrines, many twists and turns are adopted but the facts are very clear to see just check out Prajapati praying to Lor Shiva.

SB 8.7.24: You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, PBrahman, which is originally Parabrahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

SB 8.7.25: O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [r?ta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om?, which consists of three letters a-u-m.

SB 8.7.26: O father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varun?a, master of the waters, is your tongue.

SB 8.7.27: O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head.

SB 8.7.28: O lord, you are the three Vedas personified. The seven seas are your abdomen, and the mountains are your bones. All drugs, creepers and vegetables are the hairs on your body, the Vedic mantras like Ga-yatri- are the seven layers of your body, and the Vedic religious system is the core of your heart.

SB 8.7.29: O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord S'iva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Parama-tma-.

SB 8.7.30: O lord, your shadow is seen in irreligion, which brings about varieties of irreligious creations. The three modes of nature — goodness, passion and ignorance — are your three eyes. All the Vedic literatures, which are full of verses, are emanations from you because their compilers wrote the various scriptures after receiving your glance.

SB 8.7.31: O Lord Giri-s'a, since Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma-, Lord Vis?n?u or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

SB 8.7.32: When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. Nonetheless, you do not know how this happens. What then is to be said of your destroying the Daks?a-yajña, Tripura-sura and the ka-laku-t?a poison? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you.

SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma-, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

 

Interesting. Krishna also says,

 

'Among fishes, I am the Shark'.

 

So, is the Shark a worshippable God now?

 

 

For a faithful not a difficult question but then people like you are only stuck in hierarchy problem and thus forget fish incarnation.

 

 

Understand that in this context, Krishna was simply saying that whatever glory exists in this world, it is merely due to Him. Among Rudras, Sankara is most powerful. So Sankara represents Krishna. Among Yakshas, Kubera is best, so Kubera is Krishna. Among Fishes, Shark is most powerful. So Shark is Krishna.

 

Now, you may argue that He also says this, 'Among Warriors, I am Rama' and 'Among Adityas, I am Vishnu'. A few things need to be clarified here:

 

1) Rama is an avatar of Vishnu, and this has been substantiated by other texts. When the Lord takes an avatara, He enters His own creation and becomes part of His own glory. So, Krishna includes Rama here as well.

 

2) 'Among Adityas, I am Vishnu', again refers to an avatar of Vishnu named Vamana, who was Upendra (younger brother of Indra) and hence an Aditya. It doesn't refer to Lord Vishnu on the causal ocean.

 

 

Again all you are giving is opinion with lot of pain, but I don’t care, this is what Lord Krishna is Saying, in response and i quote again.

 

How may I know You, O Lord, by constant contemplation? In what form are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17)

The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19)

Says it all really My prominent divine manifestations

 

 

 

So, according to your logic, all Devas are gods? So, we have 'gods' like Indra, who is full of traits like lust, greed and ego. Shiva and Brahma are more mature and wiser compared to devas like Indra, but they are Jivas as well.

 

No not my logic remember I am dumb, but this is what Vedas says and Arjun confirms it.

 

इन्द्रं मित्रं वरुणमग्निमाहुरथो दिव्यः स सुपर्णो गरुत्मान |

एकं सद विप्रा बहुधा वदन्त्यग्निं यमं मातरिश्वानमाहुः ||

 

indraṃ mitraṃ varuṇamaghnimāhuratho divyaḥ sa suparṇo gharutmān |

ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadantyaghniṃ yamaṃ mātariśvānamāhuḥ ||

 

"They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutman.

To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan." RV (Book 1, Hymn 164.46)

vayur yamo 'gnir varunah sasankah

prajapatis tvam prapitamahas ca

namo namas te 'stu sahasra-krtvah

punas ca bhuyo 'pi namo namas te

 

You are Vaayu, Yama, Agni, Varuna, Shashaanka, and Brahmaa as well as the father of Brahmaa. Salutations to You a thousand times, and again and again salutations to You. (11.39)BG

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[shvu]

There is really no reason why a Vaishnava should bother with worshipping Shiva, when that time can be utilized to worship Vishnu/Krishna instead. There is no value add in taking time out for other Gods.

 

On the other hand, Shiva's status in relation to Vishnu is not a universal truth. It strictly depends on the context, scriptures chosen as authority and the levels of priority assigned to them.

 

Cheers

[Dark Warrior]

 

Why the truth is hurting? There are devas but there is only one Mahadeva. Problem with your argument is Rudra when extolled we will claim that to be Vishu, does not wash with me. People like you claim all names belong to Vishnu but if I ask you to chant those names then it would be big silence.

 

Are you aware that this name thing is accepted by even Adi Sankara? He translates 'Maheswara' as Narayana in some Upanishad commentary. Clearly, he takes 'Maheswara' as meaning, 'Lord of the Worlds' (which is Vishnu) and not as the name of Mahadeva Rudra.

 

Ignorance. Sri Rudram is chanted by Sri Vaishnavas. Rudra as a name of Vishnu occurs in the Sahasranama.

 

Ganeshprasad, first learn Panini's grammar and then talk. If you apply all names of Vishnu to Rudra, it leads to two contradictions: 1) Creation account of Rudra cannot be explained, 2) Narayana is a proper noun that can only be applied to Vishnu. And Narayana is explicitly mentioned as Brahman.

 

So, with shaivite philosophy, we will have two Brahmans, Narayana and Rudra. Which is illogical.

 

 

Rudras appeared from the mind of Brahma, so did Vishnu appeared from his nose, you are proving nothing. Krishna takes birth Ram takes birth, so what, only our faulty understanding prevents us to see the truth.

 

Exactly what are you blabbering about?

 

Yes, Rudra appeared from the mind of Brahma. But that is only the body of Rudra. The jiva assigned to this body then entered it. Narayana then meditated, and from his forehead came Sankarshana, the avatar of Vishnu who confers destructive powers to the jivatma named Rudra.

 

You know nothing about sastra. To compare avatars of the Lord with devas is not even proper.

 

 

Unlike you I am not doubting Lord Vishu.

 

And it is illogical to say Vishnu is supreme, Brahma is supreme, Shiva is supreme, when Shruti clearly posits that Rudra as a baby cried and asked Brahma to remove his sins...an indication of his jiva status.

 

He has completely evaded the point.

 

 

On this bases everything you write must be rejected, if there is any doubt in Lord Brahmas wisdom, then anything you have learned off him and his writing must be suspect.

 

Again, no pramanas.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam talks about Brahma getting jealous and kidnapping all the children, upon which Krishna rescues them. Jealousy is a trait of a Jiva. Clearly, Brahma is not faultless or perfect like Vishnu.

 

 

Comments and opinions are based on doctrines, many twists and turns are adopted but the facts are very clear to see just check out Prajapati praying to Lor Shiva.

 

Shiva means 'Auspiciousness'. So, in Veda, Shiva is Brahman simply means 'Brahman is Auspicious'. That's all.

 

 

I give you pramana from Srimad Ramayana:

 

'The Devas pray to Shiva for liberation. Shiva prays to Brahma. Brahma prays to me. I need no protection, for I am the refuge of all'.

 

It is a heirarchy. Krishna has always emphasised the value of Guru. To devas, Rudra acts as a guru. To Rudra, Brahma acts as a guru. Brahma then prays to Vasudeva, who has noone above Him.

 

 

SB 8.7.24: You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, PBrahman, which is originally Parabrahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

SB 8.7.25: O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [r?ta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om?, which consists of three letters a-u-m.

SB 8.7.26: O father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varun?a, master of the waters, is your tongue.

SB 8.7.27: O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head.

SB 8.7.28: O lord, you are the three Vedas personified. The seven seas are your abdomen, and the mountains are your bones. All drugs, creepers and vegetables are the hairs on your body, the Vedic mantras like Ga-yatri- are the seven layers of your body, and the Vedic religious system is the core of your heart.

SB 8.7.29: O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord S'iva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Parama-tma-.

SB 8.7.30: O lord, your shadow is seen in irreligion, which brings about varieties of irreligious creations. The three modes of nature — goodness, passion and ignorance — are your three eyes. All the Vedic literatures, which are full of verses, are emanations from you because their compilers wrote the various scriptures after receiving your glance.

SB 8.7.31: O Lord Giri-s'a, since Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma-, Lord Vis?n?u or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

SB 8.7.32: When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. Nonetheless, you do not know how this happens. What then is to be said of your destroying the Daks?a-yajña, Tripura-sura and the ka-laku-t?a poison? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you.

SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma-, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

 

Useless quoting english translations. Of course, a Shaivite or an Advaitin will make his biased interpretations. What's the point of quoting verses in english?

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Stop quoting verses from your biased commentators. I repeat, Srimad Bhagavatam is a sattvik Purana, and Vaishnava Acharyas have commentated on it perfectly. And they have destroyed the arguments of every shaivite and advaitin who came up with Shiva's supremacy.

 

 

For a faithful not a difficult question but then people like you are only stuck in hierarchy problem and thus forget fish incarnation.

 

The shark is not Matsya. Nowhere is Matsya mentioned as a Shark. Please provide me with pramanas for this.

 

In any case, even if we assume that Matsya is a Shark, there is absolutely no indication that Krishna was specifying the Matsya avatara in that verse. AND even if we assume that He was specifying the Matsya Avatara, it is already mentioned that the Lord's avatars are part of His glories. independent pramanas exist to prove Matsya, Rama and Vamana are avatars. But there are no pramanas to show that Indra and Rudra are equal to Vishnu. Thus, it can be inferred that Krishna was only talking generally.

 

 

Says it all really My prominent divine manifestations

 

Yes. So what? The Universe is a manifestation of Krishna. The insentient matter is also His creation. Similarly, the devas are manifestations.

 

Now, Shiva has auspiciousness. So Krishna can say, 'I am Shiva'. But since Shiva lacks the other attributes that Krishna has, Shiva cannot say 'I am Krishna'.

 

Krishna also says, 'I am the Self in all Beings'. Does this mean Ganeshprasad is a manifestation of Krishna? No. According to Vishishtadvaita, Self is the body of Brahman. Hence, Krishna is only referring to general unity.

 

And if you are an advaitin, trust me, we have enough pramanas to defeat advaita.

 

 

इन्द्रं मित्रं वरुणमग्निमाहुरथो दिव्यः स सुपर्णो गरुत्मान |

एकं सद विप्रा बहुधा वदन्त्यग्निं यमं मातरिश्वानमाहुः ||

 

indraṃ mitraṃ varuṇamaghnimāhuratho divyaḥ sa suparṇo gharutmān |

ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadantyaghniṃ yamaṃ mātariśvānamāhuḥ ||

 

"They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutman.

To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan." RV (Book 1, Hymn 164.46)

 

vayur yamo 'gnir varunah sasankah

prajapatis tvam prapitamahas ca

namo namas te 'stu sahasra-krtvah

punas ca bhuyo 'pi namo namas te

 

You are Vaayu, Yama, Agni, Varuna, Shashaanka, and Brahmaa as well as the father of Brahmaa. Salutations to You a thousand times, and again and again salutations to You. (11.39)BG

 

 

Oh boy.

 

I told you, each deva has ONE attribute of Brahman (Vishnu). But they do not have ALL His attributes. And even that one attribute they get only by His grace.

 

Now, Vishnu has intelligence, auspiciousness and wealth. Brahma has intelligence only. Shiva has auspiciousness only. Indra has wealth only.

 

So, neither Brahma, Shiva or Indra ar equal to Vishnu, because they each have oly one of His three attributes. So, the Veda, while meditating on Vishnu's attributes of Intelligence, auspiciousness and wealth, simply refers to these attributes by names of devas, ie, Narayana is Brahma, Shiva, Indra, meaning, Narayana is intelligent, auspicious, and wealthy.

 

Here are Pramanas:

 

Pramana 1 - Vedas say that 'Of Devas, Vishnu is highest and Agni is lowest'. So, if you consider all devas as equal, it contradicts this verse. My explanation is consistent with both your quote and my pramana.

 

Pramana 2- Upanishads refer to various brahma vidyas in which one is supposed to meditate on the Lord as the indweller of Indra's body. So, th Upanishads explicitly say that Vishnu is the one to whom the meditation is directed, and not Indra, as Vishnu is in Indra as his indweller.

 

Learn Veda before you post misleading interpretations.

[cbrahma]

 

when Shruti clearly posits that Rudra as a baby cried and asked Brahma to remove his sins...an indication of his jiva status.

 

 

 

 

"Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum Krsna to have sixty-four principal attributes. All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But Sri Krsna is the possessor of the attributes cent percent. And His personal expansions such as svayam-prakasa, tad-ekatma up to the categories of the avataras who are all visnu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes. Lord Siva, who is neither avatara nor avesa nor in between them, possesses almost eighty-four percent of the attributes. But the jivas, or the individual living beings in different statuses of life, possess up to the limit of seventy-eight percent of the attributes. In the conditioned state of material existence, the living being possesses these attributes in very minute quantity, varying in terms of the pious life of the living being. The most perfect of living beings is Brahma, the supreme administrator of one universe. He possesses seventy-eight percent of the attributes in full. All other demigods have the same attributes in less quantity, whereas human beings possess the attributes in very minute quantity. The standard of perfection for a human being is to develop the attributes up to seventy-eight percent in full. The living being can never possess attributes like Siva, Visnu or Lord Krsna. A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Siva, Visnu or Krsna. He can become a Brahma in due course." Srimad-Bhagavatam 1:3:28 Purport

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

 

Learn Veda before you post misleading interpretations.

 

You can talk, anything you say can not be taken seriously, all you are doing is giving opinions and look at the contradiction in your statement one minute Lord Brahma has intelligence next he is prone to make mistake, all our knowledge is coming from him, so based on your assertion that Brahma is prone to make mistake your knowledge of Vedas are faulty.

 

Again as I said your opinion in what Lord Krishna is saying has no value,

 

Krishna is saying My prominent divine manifestations. beside Arjun is asking what various forms,? and then he sees them in his universal form.

 

Bhagvatam verse I quoted does not come from Saviate or Advaita acharya but none other then Srila Prabhupada.

Like it or not that is who Prajapati are praying to, Lord Shiva the husband of Uma.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

There is really no reason why a Vaishnava should bother with worshipping Shiva, when that time can be utilized to worship Vishnu/Krishna instead. There is no value add in taking time out for other Gods.

 

Cheers

 

In a way yes, one’s shadhna should be directed to one’s ista deva, but then such a person is not bothered by some else mode of worship. My lord is not supreme at the expense of other divine manifestations of the supreme brahman.

A simple fact what Lord Krishna says can be understood easily, such is the unity in diversity. This is Hindu Dharma.

 

Some worship Me by knowledge sacrifice. Others worship the infinite as the one in all (or non-dual), as the master of all (or dual), and in various other ways. (9.15)

 

 

On the other hand, Shiva's status in relation to Vishnu is not a universal truth. It strictly depends on the context, scriptures chosen as authority and the levels of priority assigned to them.

 

Truth is only one, some see the Zebra, white with back stripe and others as black, in any case the Zebra remains the same, will not change or care.

 

Lord Krishna says hardly any one knows me in truth, and if one is stuck in hierarchy problem then the truth remains very elusive

 

Cheers

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[guliaditya]

There is only one GOD i.e Shreeman Narayan. Quoting some verses from Bhagavatam.

tasmai namo bhagavate vâsudevâya dhîmahi

yan-mâyayâ durjayayâ mâm vddanti jagad-gurum

I offer my obeisances and meditate upon Lord Krishna [Vâsudeva], the Personality of Godhead, whose invincible potency influences them [the less intelligent class of men] to call me the supreme controller.

nârâyana-parâ vedâ devâ nârâyanângajâh

nârâyana-parâ lokâ nârâyana-parâ makhâh

nârâyana-paro yogo nârâyana-param tapah

nârâyana-param jn'ânam nârâyana-parâ gatih

The Vedic literatures are made by and are meant for the Supreme Lord, the demigods are also meant for serving the Lord as parts of His body, the different planets are also meant for the sake of the Lord, and different sacrifices are performed just to please Him.All different types of meditation or mysticism are means for realizing Nârâyana. All austerities are aimed at achieving Nârâyana. Culture of transcendental knowledge is for getting a glimpse of Nârâyana, and ultimately salvation is entering the <?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:place u2:st="on"><u1:PlaceType u2:st="on"><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">kingdom</u1:PlaceType></st1:PlaceType> of <u1:PlaceName u2:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Nârâyana</u1:PlaceName></u1:place></st1:PlaceName></st1:place>

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<u1:place u2:st="on"><u1:PlaceName u2:st="on">srijâmi tan-niyukto 'ham haro harati tad-vas'ah

vis'vam purusha-rûpena paripâti tri-s'akti-dhrik (SB 2.6.32)

By His will, I create, Lord S'iva destroys, and He Himself, in His eternal form as the Personality of Godhead, maintains everything. He is the powerful controller of these three energies.

 

nato 'smy aham tac-caranam samîyushâm

bhavac-chidam svasty-ayanam sumangalam

yo hy âtma-mâyâ-vibhavam sma paryagâd

yathâ nabhah svântam athâpare kutah (SB2.6.36)

 

Therefore it is best for me to surrender unto His feet, which alone can deliver one from the miseries of repeated birth and death. Such surrender is all-auspicious and allows one to perceive all happiness. Even the sky cannot estimate the limits of its own expansion. So what can others do when the Lord Himself is unable to estimate His own limits?

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nâham na yûyam yad-ritâm gatim vidur

na vâmadevah kim utâpare surâh

tan-mâyayâ mohita-buddhayas tv idam

vinirmitam câtma-samam vicakshmahe (SB2.6.37)

Since neither Lord S'iva nor you nor I could ascertain the limits of spiritual happiness, how can other demigods know it? And because all of us are bewildered by the illusory external energy of the Supreme Lord, we can see only this manifested cosmos according to our individual ability.

 

Hence from all the above quotes it is clear that Lord Narayana is supreme personality.There is no one equal to or greater than Lord Narayana.Hence it will be wrong to say that Lord Shiva & Lord Brahma are equal to Lord Narayana.

Lord Shiva is above Brahma but below Vishnu/Naryana. Lord Brahma & Lord Shiva are direct manifestation of Lord Narayana. Shiva tattva is very difficult to describe. Even Shree Bhishma was not in a position to describe it. He asked Yudhisthira to request Lord Krishna for describing Shiva tattva. Even Lord Brahma was not able to describe Shiva tattva then what to tell about others.

Vedvyas has conluded “Vaishanavanam Yatha Shambhu”. Hence we should accept Vedvyas & give respect to Lord Shiva as supreme acharya/Vaishnava.

Both the guru & Lord should be treated equally & should be worshipped .

Hence both Lord Narayana(as supreme personality) & Lord Shiva ( as supreme acharya/Vaishnava) should be worshipped.

 

 

[Dark Warrior]

I will make some points absolutely clear:

 

1) Ganeshprasad talks of Ishta devta worship without providing any pramanas. He is quoting the secularists' popular injunction, 'Truth is One, but it has many names'. I am seriously tired of these people quoting this sentence without understanding the context. Yes, Vishnu has many names, so what?

 

Ganeshprasad should provide pramanas to prove his theory that all devas are equal. He hasn't. Furthermore, anyadevata worship is denounced by every Vedantin who has commentated on the Prasthna Trayam.

 

2) cBrahma is another one. He keeps quoting Srila Prabhupada, just like Ganeshprasad quotes english translations of Bhagavatam without authenticity. Now, Srila Prabhupada was a great acharya with bhakti to Krishna, but He is NOT right on all counts.

 

 

A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Siva, Visnu or Krsna

 

Nonsense. This is a contradiction of Shruti and Smriti. How can a Jiva possess 78% attributes? And indeed, who has measured the Lord's attributes? The Lord Himself says His attributes are immeasurable.

 

First of all, the Supreme Lord cannot be restricted to just 64 attributes alone. Secondly, there is no pramana in Upanishads, Vedas, Ithihasas and Puranas that says Vishnu is 86% Krishna and Shiva is 75% Krishna.

 

I give you pramana from Mahabharata, which says, 'Shiva became Mahadeva after performing a Mahayagya'. Thus, the idea that Shiva is closer to god status is WRONG. Shiva himself is a Jiva who performed some sacrifices to elevate himself to this position.

 

No deva like Shiva or Brahma can even have 1% of Krishna's attributes. And Vishnu is none other than Krishna. And exactly how do you arrive at the 85% figure so accurately?

 

VISHNU IS KRISHNA. Why do these Hare Krshnas think that Narayana refers to the four handed form and Krishna to two handed form? The two handed form is also Narayana. The four handed form is also Krishna.

 

cBrahma is calling Vishnu a demigod, and Krishna is given an identity that sets Him apart from Vishnu. This is against Sastra and Vaishnavism.

 

cBrahma will say, 'So and So person is self realised, so no need to resort to scripture, just rely on translation. This argument is not valid. Advaitins will say, 'Advaita is correct because Sri Sankara said so'. Similarly, one CANNOT say 'This is right because Srila Prabhupada said so'.

 

I repeat, Narayana is Brahman as per Shruti and Smriti. There is no difference between Krishna and Vishnu. The difference between Shiva and Vishnu is like the difference between a normal Jiva and Vishnu.

 

Krishna came to mingle with the cowherds. Does that make Him a simple cowherd? No. Similarly, Vishnu mingles with the devas.

 

3) Guliaditya: There are many pramanas proving that Shiva, Brahma and the Devas are jvas. And as far as the 'Shiva is a great Vaishnava' goes, please read my earlier post on this:

 

<TABLE class=tborder id=post1093376 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_1093376 style="BORDER-TOP: #cfcfcf 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #cfcfcf 1px solid">Now, Bhagavatam says, 'Shiva is a Vaishnava'. But we cannot worship Shiva because we do not know whether this verse pertains to this Yuga's Shiva, or to a Shiva of another Yuga. Yes, there have been many Rudras in previous Yugas who were great Bhagavatas, and had attained moksha.

 

But the reason why I suspect that this verse does not pertain to the current Rudra is simply because he has not done much to become the greatest Vaishnava. Apart from composing a few stotras in praise of the Lord, Shiva has sometimes rebelled against Vishnu (as in Banasura episode) and has also considered himself as Supreme at times. Therfore, it isn't necessary to worship this Rudra. He may be Vaishnava, but he is not a Bhagavata.

 

 

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[Dark Warrior]

One more post for Ganeshprasad's benefit:

 

1) My 'prominent manifestations' simply means that all the glorious things in the world were described by Krishna. Within the material world, Devas like Rudra are powerful. Therefore, they represent Krishna.

 

This means, that the glory of Rudra or Brahma is simply provided by Krishna. It is not their own glory. Understand?

 

Ganeshprasad is also a manifestation. But since he has no glory, obviously the Lord didn't mention him!!

 

Krishna also says, 'I am the rod of chastisement'. Hence, it s clear that He was simply quoting generally.

 

2) In the Universal Form, what Arjuna sees are the various devas, asuras, rishis, etc. forming the body of Krishna.

 

A little philosophy. Upanishads say that everything is the body of Brahman. Which means, everything, including us, are the body of Brahman.

 

Now, you have Ganeshprasad. Obviously, I know that Ganeshprasad's soul is distinct from the body. Yet, I don't call him, 'Ganeshprasad's soul'. When I say 'Ganeshprasad', it appears as though I am addressing the insentient body, but it is in reality the sentient atma who is awake enough to hear it.

 

Similarly, when the Veda says, 'Brahma is supreme', it does not denote the body, but the indweller. And it is mentioned that everything is a body of Brahman. So, Brahma, being the body of Brahman, is not being addressed here. Rather, the indwelling Lord is being addressed.

 

Now, you agree that the body is inferior to the soul. Similarly, the devas, rishis, asuras, ourselves, the Universe and insentient matter which forms the body of the Lord is inferior to the Lord.

 

 

Some worship Me by knowledge sacrifice. Others worship the infinite as the one in all (or non-dual), as the master of all (or dual), and in various other ways

 

Yes. They do. Even Christians and Muslims are only worshipping Him. But He clearly says, 'One who worships Me alone is more intelligent'. And that, 'Men of small intelligence worship devas'.

 

 

Bhagvatam verse I quoted does not come from Saviate or Advaita acharya but none other then Srila Prabhupada.

Like it or not that is who Prajapati are praying to, Lord Shiva the husband of Uma.

 

Are you so stubborn? Srimad Bhagavatam is a sattvik Purana, meaning, it glorifies Vishnu as Supreme. There is no Deva worship.

 

Srila Prabhupada's commentary is soaked in bhakti, but it contradicts shruti in many places. There is no such thing as 'Impersonal Brahman'. Upanishads say Brahman is Personal.

 

Read the commentaries of Veeraraghavachariar or Madhvacharya. None of them see any deva worship in the 8th canto, or an impersonal Brahman.

 

That is why people say the Veda has three meanings, 1) Internal, 2) External, 3) Spiritual. Ignorance blinds a person.

[guliaditya]

 

3) Guliaditya: There are many pramanas proving that Shiva, Brahma and the Devas are jvas. And as far as the 'Shiva is a great Vaishnava' goes, please read my earlier post on this:

 

<TABLE class=tborder id=post1093376 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_1093376 style="BORDER-TOP: #cfcfcf 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #cfcfcf 1px solid">Now, Bhagavatam says, 'Shiva is a Vaishnava'. But we cannot worship Shiva because we do not know whether this verse pertains to this Yuga's Shiva, or to a Shiva of another Yuga. Yes, there have been many Rudras in previous Yugas who were great Bhagavatas, and had attained moksha.

 

But the reason why I suspect that this verse does not pertain to the current Rudra is simply because he has not done much to become the greatest Vaishnava. Apart from composing a few stotras in praise of the Lord, Shiva has sometimes rebelled against Vishnu (as in Banasura episode) and has also considered himself as Supreme at times. Therfore, it isn't necessary to worship this Rudra. He may be Vaishnava, but he is not a Bhagavata.

 

 

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Actually it is accepted by majority of vaishanavas.In that context only I have written.

It is true that the particular verse refers to which yuga is not mentioned.

Anyway thanks for your reply.

 

Pranaam

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

One more post for Ganeshprasad's benefit:

 

Thanks for your concern but I have nothing to learn from you.

 

 

1) My 'prominent manifestations' simply means that all the glorious things in the world were described by Krishna. Within the material world, Devas like Rudra are powerful. Therefore, they represent Krishna.

 

How convenient you forget the word Devine and the fact Arjun is asking In what form are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17)

 

2) In the Universal Form, what Arjuna sees are the various devas, asuras, rishis, etc. forming the body of Krishna.

 

It is true one only wants to see and hear what one has learned, sad really.

 

Externally Arjun has already described various devas who are bewildered, and praying but this specific verse follows from

 

You are the primal God, the most ancient Person. You are the ultimate resort of all the universe. You are the knower, the object of knowledge, and the supreme abode. The entire universe is pervaded by You, O Lord of the infinite form. (11.38)

 

You are Vaayu, Yama, Agni, Varuna, Shashaanka, and Brahmaa as well as the father of Brahmaa. Salutations to You a thousand times, and again and again salutations to You. (11.39)

 

Note the word infinite form and Arjun is saying You are so and so, it is vast different from being part of the virat rupa, where Arjun saw other Devas praying to him.

 

If you are honest you would at least see them as Devine and not Jiva.

 

Rest of your post is gibberish and has no value. What you so fondly call satvic puran has eulogised Lord Shiva in his benevolent act of drinking the poison, he is clearly mentioned as being prayed to by Prajapati as supreme, the fact that you like to ignore is because of your obsession of denigrating Lord Shiva, who is beyond tamas, unfortunately obsessed by his tamas you can not see the light.

 

Goodbye my friend be happy in your knowledge

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Dark Warrior]

 

Pranam

 

 

 

SO WHAT? The Universal Form is indeed the Lord's divine form. But are the devas equal to the Lord? No. They are just angas, His limbs.

 

The word 'Divine' refers to Krishna's form, which consists of everything. The Devas are not divine.

 

A nail cannot become the whole person. Similarly, the devas cannot become the Lord.

 

The Devas, Asuras, gandharvas are all seen in that one divine form of the Lord.

 

 

 

 

*Sigh*

 

So? Vishnu is infinite in nature. Purusha Suktam says He has infinite heads, infinite feet, infinite bodies, etc. But again, 'Lord of the Infinite Form' is ONLY Vishnu, not Shiva.

 

Yes. The Lord's form is divine. Because His body comprises the entire Universe. He is divine, but the individual devas are NOT.

 

Here is pramana from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:

 

"His body is the earth",

"His body is the water",

"His body is the fire"

"His body is the air"

"His body is the sun"

"His body is the moon and the stars"

"His body is ether"

"His body is the light"

"His body is speech"

"His body is the eye"

"His body is the ear"

"His body is the mind"

"His body is the skin"

"His body is the soul or Jivatma"

"His body is the intellect"

"His body is matter"

"His body is death"

"He is the internal soul of all beings"

 

Now, do you worship the Earth or Water? No. Similarly, you can't worship Devas, who are also part of this body.

 

The Body, consisting of all creation, is the 'One Divine Form', or 'Infinite Form'. But Earth, Water, Air, or Devas by themselves are not divine forms. They are divine manifestations in the sense that Krishna created them by His divine potency.

 

Its a simple concept, is it so hard to understand?

 

 

 

Moron, I have already explained why He is addressed by the names of the Devas. Sri Ramanujacharya and Sri Madhvacharya, and even Sri Sankaracharya have followed this reasoning only, which is why I quote it.

 

Put your eyes back in your head and read. The Devas each have one attribute of the Lord, hence, the Lord is Vayu, Shiva, etc. But the Devas are not equal to the Lord.

 

Krishna can say, 'I am Ganeshprasad' as well. Because you are part of His body. But you cannot say, 'I am Krishna'.

 

 

 

 

Moron, listen. Bhagavatam has many commentators. Not one Vaishnava commentator ever saw it as eulogising Shiva, except perhaps Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srimad Ramayana clearly mentions that Devas pray to Shiva, Shiva prays to Brahma, and Brahma to Vishnu, who is highest. Explain this.

 

Why did Shiva drink the poison? Because the Lord likes to divide work among His servants. Its no use doing everything by Himself. Its all His lila. Even Shiva clearly calls Vishnu as Supreme in the Bhagavatam anyway.

 

And all that nonsense about Shiva being prayed to is not even mentioned by other commentators in a sense of depicting Shiva as supreme. So shut it.

 

You have totally ignored all pramanas, all logic and resorted to blindly following words without understanding their meaning.

[Dark Warrior]

Here are enough pramanas to prove the Vaishnava point of view:

 

"tata: tvam-api durdharsha: tasmad-bhAvat sanAtanAt |

rakshArtham sarva-bhUtAnAm vishNu tvam upajagmivAn || "

-- SrI vAlmIki rAmAyaNam 2.101.26

 

Meaning: Brahma said to Vishnu,"At my request, You the insurmountable Supreme Self, incarnated as Vishnu amidst Siva & myself in order to protect all."

 

Mahabharata, as well as Shathapatha Brahmana, talk about Brahma and Rudra as being positions to a bondaged jivatma is elevated upon performance of special Yaghas.

 

"yuga-kOTi-sahasrANi vishNum-ArAdhya padma-bhU: |

punas-trailOkya-dhAtRtvam prAptavAn-iti SuSRuma || "

-- mahA bhAratham, kuNTataropAkyAnam

 

Meaning: Worshipping Lord Vishnu one thousand million yugas,

catur-mukha-brahma attained the ability to create

the three Worlds.

 

"mahA-deva: sarva-medhe mahAtmA hutvA AtmAnam deva-deva: babhUva "

-- bhAratham, SAnti-parvam 20.12

 

Meaning: Having performed sarva-medha-yagam, Mahadeva (ie Siva) then achieved greatness amongst devas.

 

"sa-brahmakA: sa-rudrA: ca sendrA devA maha-rshaya: |

arcayanti sura-SreshTham devam nArAyaNam harim" ||

-- bhAratham, Santi-parvam 350.30

 

Meaning: Brahma, Siva, Indra, Devas & Rishis worship Narayana, the highest amongst them.

 

Here are some pramanas to show Narayana is different from the Devas (ie, superior):

 

ata purushohavai nArAyanO kAmayata| prajA Srujeyeti|

nArAyAnA prAnO jAyAte|

mana: sarvendriyAni ca yAyur jyotirApa: pritivI

viswasyadArini| nArAyAnAt brahmA jAyAte| nArAyAnAt rudro jAyate|

nArAyanAt prajApati: prajAyate|

nArAyAnAt dvAdasAdityA rudrA vasava: sarvAni cchamdAmsi

nArAyAnAt deva samutpatyante|

nArAyAnAt pravartante| nArAyanAt praLeyante|

etat rigvedasiroyodite|

 

~ Mahanarayana Upanishad.

 

Here, the origin of every devata is mentioned.

 

So, understand that Shiva is a jivatma who attained the ability to destroy, only by Vishnu's grace. He terminates along with Brahma at the time of pralaya.

[Ganeshprasad]

 

 

You can shout abuse as much you want, this will only reflect on you, this bully boy tactic does not work, it is easy to be brave knowing safe behind the comp. keyboard.

 

You have holes in your argument, you have answered chapter ten verse

out of context. You must tell all the audience that Krishna is lying when he goes on to describe his prominent divine manifestations. Please I do not need your explanation. If that were his separated angas and as such not divine, he would not be mentioning them end off.

 

Fact that Bhagvatam verses are there for you to see on Shiva, all you need to do is open Bagvat, and be honest, thats all.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[cbrahma]

 

cBrahma is calling Vishnu a demigod, and Krishna is given an identity that sets Him apart from Vishnu

I didn't call Vishnu a demigod. But that is semantics. He is surely a guna avatara, as are Brahma and Siva.

As for Dark Warriors' claim that Siva is a post occupied by jiva, what scripture is that based on?

Also as far as 'Prabhupada said', Prabhupada is simply translating slokas and drawing from Vaisnava traditions. This is exactly what DW is doing. He disagrees with Prabhupada.

Who am I supposed to believe?

[tackleberry]

 

I didn't call Vishnu a demigod. But that is semantics. He is surely a guna avatara, as are Brahma and Siva.

As for Dark Warriors' claim that Siva is a post occupied by jiva, what scripture is that based on?

Also as far as 'Prabhupada said', Prabhupada is simply translating slokas and drawing from Vaisnava traditions. This is exactly what DW is doing. He disagrees with Prabhupada.

Who am I supposed to believe?

 

In many places, Prabhupada doesn't give the exact meaning of the Sanskrit words while translating. Whenever there's the word 'Brahman,' he translates it to mean 'brahma jyoti' or 'impersonal brahman,' which isn't at all accurate. There's no Sanskrit equivalent for these words found in the scriptures. So whilst Prabhupad's efforts are laudable, we must also learn the real meaning of the words to deepen our understanding. Blind faith isn't gonna help.

[Dark Warrior]

 

 

Even going by your translation, Srila Prabhupada, in his purport to the Bhagavatam verses, has mentioned, 'All prayers to Shiva go to Vishnu only, on account of the fact that Vishnu is the indweller'.

 

May I ask, why the double standard? I have explained my stance with sufficient pramanas, and all you can do is take the Vedas literally, and quote random verses without understanding the context. Our scripture cannot be taken literally. It needs interpretation.

 

You blindly say, 'Bhagavatam says so', depending on the commentary of ONE acharya. Whereas numerous other scholars have commentated on this Purana without saying Shiva is supreme.

 

 

 

cBrahma, our Vedic Tradition is not based on 'this acharya said this, so this is right'. We need to use our brains to verify such things.

 

You say I am wrong because I disagree with Srila Prabhupada. Tell me, do you accept Sri Ramanujacharya when he says that Krishna is a Vibhava avatar of Vishnu? No. So, difference of opinions can be resolved by debate.

 

Take Tulsidas for instance. He was a great bhakta of Lord Rama. But he also had the habit of equating Shiva with Rama, and indeed, it was he who started the unfounded claims of Rama worshipping Shiva. But does that mean he was not a great devotee? No. I respect Tulsidas for his amazing stotras on Sri Rama and Hanuman, but I disagree with him philosophically.

 

Same goes for Srila Prabhupada.

 

1) There is no sastric pramana that says Vishnu is a 'guna avatara' of Krishna. Vishnu is Narayana, who has been lauded as the Supreme by the Veda.

 

naaraayanaa paro jyotiratma naaraayanaa paraah

naaraayanaa param brahmaa tattwam naaraayanaah paraah

naaraayanaa paro dhyaatah dhyaanam naaraayanah paraah

 

Narayana is the Supreme Absolute; Narayana is the Supreme Reality; Narayana is the Supreme Light; Narayana is the Supreme Self; Narayana is the Supreme Meditator; Narayana is the Supreme Meditation.

 

~ Narayana Suktam.

 

The Narayana Suktam shows that there is nothing superior to Narayana. Hence, Krishna is Narayana Himself, and not superior to Narayana.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam also verifies that Krishna and Narayana are identical:

 

nArAyana parA vedA devA nArAyanAngajAha

nArAyana parA lokA nArAyana para makhaha

nArAyana paro yogo nArAyAna param tapaha

nArAyana param gyanam nArAyana para gatihi (Bhagavatam: 2:5.15-16)

 

vAsudeva parA vedA vasudeva parA makhaha

vAsudeva parA yogA vasudeva parah kriyaha

vAsudeva param gyAnam vAsudeva param tapaha

vAsudeva paro dharmo vasudeva para gatihi (Bhagavatam: 1:2.28-29)

 

If you take Vasudeva to mean Krishna, then Bhagavatam clearly says that Krishna is Narayana.

 

 

How can you say Vishnu/Narayana is a Guna avatar when the suktam says that Narayana is the Supreme Absolute?

 

2) I have given you enough pramanas to show Shiva is a Jiva. He performed a Sarva-Medha-Yagha to elevate himself to the position of Rudra.

 

The Shathapatha Brahmana says that when Rudra was born, he cried incessantly, and Brahma named him Rudra, meaning, 'Howler'. Rudra then asked Brahma to remove all his (Rudra's) sins. This clearly shows that Rudra had some sins left over from a past life, and only a jiva has sins.

 

Rudra then asks Brahma to give him some names. Brahma then proceeds to name him 'Maheshwara', 'Isvara', etc. This shows that these names are just that...names. Just like some person on earth may name himself as 'Krishna', Rudra was named 'Maheshwara'. But a person named Krishna is not the God Krishna, and similarly, Rudra is not the real Maheshwara. Only Sriman Narayana is the true Maheshwara. Here is the text:

 

Bhootanam ca Prajapatis samvatsaraya dikshitah | Bhootanam pathir gruhapathir aaseet | Usha Patni | …………….. bhootanam pathis samvatsara ushasi rodho(a)sinchat | Samvatsare kumaro jayatha | sorodheeth | tam prajapathirabraveet | kumara kim rodhishi | yachhramath tapasodhi jathoseethi | so(a)braveet anapahatapapma vaa ahamanahithanama | nama me dehi paapno(a)pahatya iti | tam punah prajapathi braveet | rudro(a)seethi | ……….. rudrobhavachcharva isanah pathir bhima ugra iti sapta namani |"

 

"The pati of bhoota and praja, Brahma deva, underwent diksha for one year. He was a Grihasta. His wife was Usha. …….. Brahma deva let his veerya ( ‘rodho(a)sinchat’) to Usha. In a year, a son was born. The son cried. Brahma asked him, “ Son! Why are you crying. I got you as child after tough tapasya. The son said, “ I am not cleansed of sins. To wipe out my sins give me names. Brahma again told him, “ Let your name be Rudra.” …….. Rudra, Bhava, charva, Isana, Pathi(pasupathi), Bhima, Ugra – these seven names (were given by Brahma deva)"

 

~ Shathapatha Brahmana

 

Rudra has had a normal birth. Just like all Devas, he is a Jiva. But just like some human beings are stronger than others, Rudra is more exalted than other Devas.

 

Brahma's life span has been defined by our scriptures as 155 trillion years. So, it is clear that he dies at the end of his life.

 

Check out the following Vedic pramana:

 

'eko ha vai nArAyAna Aseeth na brahmaha na ISAnaha

neme dyava pruthivi na nakshatrAni na sUryaha.'

 

Sriman Narayana existed, manifestly alone, the only purusha, and neither Brahma nor Siva, nor the sky, nor the earth, nor the stars, and nor the sun were existent.

 

~ Mahanarayana Upanishad.

 

 

This verse shows that during Pralaya, even the devas like Brahma and Shiva are dissolved by Narayana. You must understand that only Jivas are susceptible to pralaya. If Shiva was not a Jiva, he would be existent even during the destruction process.

 

And I have already said that Brahma has a particular lifespan. Hence, it follows that after every pralaya, a new jiva takes the position of Brahma and Shiva.

[cbrahma]

 

In many places, Prabhupada doesn't give the exact meaning of the Sanskrit words while translating. Whenever there's the word 'Brahman,' he translates it to mean 'brahma jyoti' or 'impersonal brahman,' which isn't at all accurate. There's no Sanskrit equivalent for these words found in the scriptures. So whilst Prabhupad's efforts are laudable, we must also learn the real meaning of the words to deepen our understanding. Blind faith isn't gonna help.

So what is your precise and accurate translation of the word Brahman?

 

This what I got from a scholarly neutral source

 

 

 

brahman–derived from the Sanskrit root brmh meaning to grow, to expand, to bellow, to roar. The word brahman refers to the Supreme Principle regarded as impersonal and divested of all qualities. This form of brahman is sometimes designated as nirguna-brahman, brahman devoid of qualities. In contrast there is saguna-brahman, brahman invested with qualities. (See saguna-brahman). Brahman is the essence from which all created beings are produced and into which they are absorbed. This word is neuter and not to be confused with the masculine word Brahma, the creator god. Brahman is sometimes used to denote the syllable Om or the Vedas in general.

http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Sanskrit/sanskritterms.htm

 

 

[cbrahma]

 

 

cBrahma, our Vedic Tradition is not based on 'this acharya said this, so this is right'. We need to use our brains to verify such things.

 

You say I am wrong because I disagree with Srila Prabhupada. Tell me, do you accept Sri Ramanujacharya when he says that Krishna is a Vibhava avatar of Vishnu? No. So, difference of opinions can be resolved by debate.

 

You speak for the whole tradition? Interesting. Then what is there need of guru if in fact it just takes a brain?

 

 

1) There is no sastric pramana that says Vishnu is a 'guna avatara' of Krishna. Vishnu is Narayana, who has been lauded as the Supreme by the Veda.

 

 

 

 

SRI BRAHMA SAMHITA

CHAPTER FIVE

46 The light of one candle being communicated to other candles although it burns separately in them, is the same in its quality. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda who exhibits Himself equally in the same mobile manner in His various manifestations.**

Commentary by Srila Jiva Gosvami

In this verse Lord Hari, the next in this sequence, is described. Now that the guna-avatara Siva has been described, the guna-avatara Visnu is described in this verse. The reason the guna-avataras have the same powers as the Lord Himself is given in these words:

"So they may manifest the material world, the guna-avataras are given powers like those of the Supreme Lord."

From a part of a part of Lord Govinda is manifested Lord Karanarnavasayi Visnu. From Him is manifested Lord Garbhodakasayi Visnu. From Garbhodakasayi Visnu is manifested the Lord Visnu who is a guna-avatara. As the light of one candle being communicated to other candles, although it burns separately in them, is the same in its quality, so the different forms of the Lord are all the same Supreme Personality of Godhead.

In this example Lord Siva, because he is the controller of the mode of ignorance, is compared to the soot that is the by-product of these candles. Therefore He is not equal to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as are the forms of Lord Visnu. In the following verses the various expansion of Lord Visnu will be described

 

 

In his Purport to Srimad-Bhagavatam 8:12:4, Srila Prabhupada further explains:

 

• "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Visnu, resides within the material world as the sattva-guna-avatara. Lord Siva is the tamo-guna-avatara, and Lord Brahma is the rajo-guna-avatara, but although Lord Visnu is among them, He is not in the same category. Lord Visnu is deva-deva, the chief of all the demigods. Since Lord Siva is in this material world, the energy of the Supreme Lord, Visnu, includes Lord Siva. Lord Visnu is therefore called jagad-vyapi, "the all-pervading Lord." Lord Siva is sometimes called Mahesvara, and so people think that Lord Siva is everything. But here Lord Siva addresses Lord Visnu as Jagad-isa, "the master of the universe." Lord Siva is sometimes called Visvesvara, but here he addresses Lord Visnu as Jagan-maya, indicating that even Visvesvara is under Lord Visnu's control. Lord Visnu is the master of the spiritual world, yet He controls the material world also, as stated in Bhagavad-gita (mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sacaracaram). Lord Brahma and Lord Siva are also sometimes called isvara, but the supreme isvara is Lord Visnu, Lord Krsna."

 

 

2) I have given you enough pramanas to show Shiva is a Jiva. He performed a Sarva-Medha-Yagha to elevate himself to the position of Rudra.

 

 

Another story- very widely accepted - hardly a normal birth.

 

According to the Bhagavata Purana, Lord Śiva appeared from the forehead of Lord Brahma. When Lord Brahma asked his sons, the Four Kumaras, to go forth and create progeny in the universe, they refused. This angered Lord Brahma and in his anger a crying child appeared from his forehead. As the child was crying he was called Rudra, and became Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva was asked to go forth and create progeny, but when Lord Brahma observed the power, as they shared the qualities of Lord Śiva, he asked him to observe austerities instead of creating progeny. A slightly different version is told in the Shiva Purana: in the Śiva Purana, Śiva promises Brahma that an aspect of his, Rudra, will be born and this aspect is identical to Him.

also -

 

 

 

 

Brahma-Samhita, text 45

 

 

 

 

 

ksiram yatha dadhi vikara-visesa-yogat

 

sanjayate na hi tatah prthag asti hetoh

 

yah sambhutam api tatha samupaiti karyad

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

 

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Sambhu [lord Shiva] is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.