If we could only see what the material univese really looks like?

[Dark Warrior]

 

The effects of Time are inescapable. As there are variations of SB manuscripts today, it is conceivable that some verses in the version we use today were added in the last 1000 years or earlier. The language of SB is fairly "modern" (as compared to Vishnu Puranam for example) and smritis in general were re-edited periodically - that is quite obvious. I see no reason to believe that what we have today is 100% Vyasadeva's writing. Does it diminish the value of Bhagavatam? Absolutely not. Over the centuries many parrots ("shukas") have bitten this fruit of the Vedas, leaving it sweeter.

 

1) Bhagavata Purana is completely consistent with the Vedas and Upanishads. The exact version is the one which has been commentated by acharyas. Sri Sudarshana Suri & Sri Viraraghavachariar have produced commentaries for Sri Vaishnava Sampradaya. Sri Madhvacharya has done the same for Sad Vaishnavas.

 

If any verses were added on, it would not have escaped the astute minds of these acharyas. Any additions would contradict something.

 

For instance, there is a bogus 'Kalki Purana'. How do we know its bogus? Because it says Kalki will get His powers from Shiva. This is not vedic, as Vishnu does not need to borrow any powers. This way, we can know if any spurious works exist.

 

2) It is true that Sri Sankarar and Sri Ramanujar did not quote from this text. But that is because advaitins are not concerned about a devotional text like the bhagavatam for debates. And Sri Ramanujar never used a pramana which was not cited by advaitins. Therfore, the Bhagavatam has remained unnamed during their times.

 

Sri Azhagia Manavala Perumal Nayanar, a Sri Vaishnava acharya, quotes this Purana. the time between him and Sri Ramanujar is very less. Hence, there wasn't enough time for the Bhagavatam to become popular during this gap.

 

3) Linguistic arguments do not hold any authenticity. The fact is, the older manuscripts may have withered away, so to preserve them, sages rewrote some scriptures like Bhagavata Purana. While doing so, they may have complied with the new laws of sanskrit that may have prevailed in their period. That is why I have little respect for indology as a valid field. All speculation and no proof.

 

Bhagavatam is authentic.

[Kulapavana]

 

3) Linguistic arguments do not hold any authenticity. The fact is, the older manuscripts may have withered away, so to preserve them, sages rewrote some scriptures like Bhagavata Purana. While doing so, they may have complied with the new laws of sanskrit that may have prevailed in their period. That is why I have little respect for indology as a valid field. All speculation and no proof.

 

 

Yes, the value of linguistic arguments is limited and subtle, yet it can be a useful tool. There are no Vedic manuscripts older than 600 years as this is the limit of the media durability on which they were written (palm leaf). That means that they were all transcribed many times over the last 5000 years. Still, important lingustic differences are observed between the sruti and the smriti, and even within smritis (like Puranas) themselves. What does it all means is of course a subject for a rational debate, where some degree of speculation is unavoidable.

 

Some Puranas (like Padma for example) exist in many different manuscripts, with parts of the text obviously missing. At one time Bhaktivinoda Thakura was working on re-compiling Padma-purana, but I am not sure how far that work has progressed. Many other Puranas quote verses from Padma that simply do not exist in the present day text. Such are the effects of time.

[cbrahma]

So there is a whole 'ghost' planetary system apparently quite accessible by gross material means, telescopes, space probes etc...

We see them measure them, understand them to be vast, measured in light years - and yet this is not the 'real' universe?

That takes a lot of faith to believe literally.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Yes, the value of linguistic arguments is limited and subtle, yet it can be a useful tool. There are no Vedic manuscripts older than 600 years as this is the limit of the media durability on which they were written (palm leaf). That means that they were all transcribed many times over the last 5000 years. Still, important lingustic differences are observed between the sruti and the smriti, and even within smritis (like Puranas) themselves. What does it all means is of course a subject for a rational debate, where some degree of speculation is unavoidable.

 

Some Puranas (like Padma for example) exist in many different manuscripts, with parts of the text obviously missing. At one time Bhaktivinoda Thakura was working on re-compiling Padma-purana, but I am not sure how far that work has progressed. Many other Puranas quote verses from Padma that simply do not exist in the present day text. Such are the effects of time.

 

I quite agree that some Puranic material has indeed been lost or modified. But the point I was making is that, if an acharya has quoted a particular verse, or has written a commentary on a Purana, it should be taken as valid.

 

For instance, I believe Naradeya Purana is classified as sattvik. But since no acharya has quoted it, we cannot be sure if the existing version is authentic. Hence, we should steer clear of it.

 

Bhagavatam, though, has been approved and authenticated by all Vaishnava acharyas.

[theist]

One thing that seems to be considered heretical by most here, so much so that it never comes up even, is the thought that maybe the cosmology of the fifth canto is just wrong and is solely based on the beliefs of those peoples before modern astronomical instruments were devised.

 

This is basically my view and it doesn't diminish the transcendental knowledge I find in the Bhagavatam one tiny bit.

[bija]

 

One thing that seems to be considered heretical by most here, so much so that it never comes up even, is the thought that maybe the cosmology of the fifth canto is just wrong and is solely based on the beliefs of those peoples before modern astronomical instruments were devised.

This is basically my view and it doesn't diminish the transcendental knowledge I find in the Bhagavatam one tiny bit. quote by theist

Yes I agree wholeheartedly Theist that it would not diminsh the Bhagavatams worth. Being situated in this material world, we are limited to some degree. So words and descriptions we use to describe God will always fall short of the Reality, of how unlimited God's Name, Form, Qualities, and Pastimes actually are.

 

So if the ancient sages have used descriptions to paint a Divine Picture of Sri Krsna I see no harm in that. Infact I see great skill, and therefore my faith would relish these Divine Literatures even more.

 

So the Fifth Canto is not a matter of contention or loss of faith for me.

 

Here are some excerpts from Srila Bhaktivinoda's commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam that have helped me rise above the plane of doubts.

 

Sri Krsna Samhita Chapter One

 

TEXT 32

vakyanam jada-janyatvan na shakta me sarasvati

varnane vimalananda vilasasya cid-atmanah

It is beyond my power of speech to describe the pure ecstatic pastimes of the living entities, because the words I would use in such descriptions are products of the material world.

TEXT 33

tathapi sarajuta vritya samadhim avalambya vai

varnita bhagavad varta maya bodhya samadhina

Although I am unable to clearly describe this topic by words, by samadhi and the process of sarajut I have described the topics of the Lord to the best of my ability. If one simply takes the insignificant literal meanings of these words, then one will not properly realize the described subject. I therefore request the reader to try and realize these truths through samadhi. One should try to understand subtle points from gross statements, as in Arundhati-nyaya [when one points out a faint star with the help of a bright star]. The process of argument is useless, because it cannot lead one to the Absolute Truth. The subtle process of directly perceiving the soul is called samadhi. I have given these descriptions based on this process. The reader should also follow this process to realize the truth.

TEXT 34

yasyeha vartate pritih krishne vraja-vilasini

tasyaivatma samadhau tu vaikuntho lakshyate svatah

Vaikuntha can be naturally perceived through the samadhi of those uttama-adhikaris who have attained love for Krishna, who performs pastimes in Vraja. The kanishtha-adhikaris and the madhyama-adhikaris are not yet qualified in this regard, because such truths cannot be realized by reading or argument. Kanishtha-adhikaris who consider the scriptures as the only authority and logicians who consider themselves liberated are both unable to advance.

Sri Krsna Samhita Chapter Nine

 

TEXT 3

maya-sutasya vishvasya cic-chayatvat samanata

cic-chaktyavishkrite karye samadhav api catmani

The pastimes of Vraja have been perceived and described through the process of natural samadhi, in the form of self-realization. Although the names, forms, qualities, and activities that are used to describe Vraja-lila appear almost mundane, that is only because the material world created by Maya is similar to its origin, Vaikuntha. Actually the soul's natural samadhi is a function of the spiritual potency. Whatever is perceived through natural samadhi is the ideal example for the material world, not imitation.

TEXT 4

tasmat tu vraja-bhavanam krishna-nama-gunatmanam

gunair jadyatmakaih shashvat sadrishyam upalakshyate

For this reason Krishna's names, qualities, and forms have a similarity to material names, qualities, and forms.

TEXT 17

prathamam sahajam jnanam dvitiyam shastra-varnanam

tritiyam kaushalam vishve krishnasya cesha-rupinah

When a living entity through natural knowledge experiences attraction for the Lord, this is known as hearing songs of Krishna. Realizing Krishna after scrutinizingly studying descriptions of His form narrated in the scriptures by persons who have seen Krishna is called hearing the qualities of Krishna. Seeing Krishna's artistry within the world is called seeing Krishna's picture. This material world is the reflected shadow of spiritual variegatedness. Whoever has realized this is said to have seen Krishna's picture. In other words, a person becomes a Vaishnava by three processes—seeing the Lord through natural knowledge, realizing the Lord by studying the scriptures, and seeing the Lord through His artistry.

ps. So in essence I accept that Vyasadeva was situated in samadhi. Therefore I accept Srimad Bhagavatam as the perfect expression of the heart and of the pure transcendental reality, the ideal example for the material world. Jaya Vyasadeva.

 

And do you know what excites me even more Theist. In Caitanya Bhagavata it is predicted that another Vyasa is due to come to further elaborate on the glories of the Lord:) All glories to the transcendental pen of the eternal Vyasa:)

 

I relish the vedic tradition of Vyasadeva because, as the Lord's glories are unlimited, so to the learned sage continues to unfold His glories. I dig that alot lol!!!

 

 

[theist]

Thanks for the nice quotes Bija. Even descriptions of Krsna found in our words fall seriously short but can point us to the reality of Krsna experienced through saha-samadhi or natural samadhi.

 

This is true of the descriptions of Krsna, the Absolute reality. But what to speak of descriptions of the phenomenal world of illusion and constant change which have no inherent value to the soul rather taken literally or not, as truth or not. They have no absolute truth to point to.

 

There could be millions of 10,000 mile high mountains floating around the earth in some astral plane. How does that benefit me in my search for God and self realization. Even if they are there they exist only as a mirage that came into being at some point and will dissolve back into nothingness at some future point.

 

Simply not worth fussing about IMO.

[bija]

Thank you Theist!

 

If we could only see what the material universe really looks like? quote by sarva

 

I think the answer to Sarva Prabhu's question is hidden within the verse below. And also the glory of Vyasadeva's samadhi and the Bhagavatam.

 

I can barely imagine to view the world in such purity, in complete Krsna consciousness.

 

Sri Krsna Samhita Chapter Nine

 

TEXT 3

maya-sutasya vishvasya cic-chayatvat samanata

cic-chaktyavishkrite karye samadhav api catmani

The pastimes of Vraja have been perceived and described through the process of natural samadhi, in the form of self-realization. Although the names, forms, qualities, and activities that are used to describe Vraja-lila appear almost mundane, that is only because the material world created by Maya is similar to its origin, Vaikuntha. Actually the soul's natural samadhi is a function of the spiritual potency. Whatever is perceived through natural samadhi is the ideal example for the material world, not imitation.

Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter Nine Verse Nineteen

by Srila Prabhupada

TRANSLATION

O Arjuna, I give heat, and I withhold and send forth the rain. I am immortality, and I am also death personified. Both spirit and matter are in Me.

 

PURPORT

Krsna, by His different energies, diffuses heat and light through the agency of electricity and the sun. During summer season it is Krsna who checks rain from falling from the sky, and then during the rainy season He gives unceasing torrents of rain. The energy which sustains us by prolonging the duration of our life is Krsna, and Krsna meets us at the end as death. By analyzing all these different energies of Krsna, one can ascertain that for Krsna there is no distinction between matter and spirit, or, in other words, He is both matter and spirit. In the advanced stage of Krsna consciousness, one therefore makes no such distinctions. He sees only Krsna in everything.

Since Krsna is both matter and spirit, the gigantic universal form comprising all material manifestations is also Krsna, and His pastimes in Krsna as two-handed Krsna, playing on a flute, are those of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

ps. It is important to note here for my own reflection and benefit that, the Bhagavad Gita and the Srimad Bhagavatam are penned by the self same eternal Vyasadeva, and these two books have a continous flow one from another. This flow is a perfect example of the greatness of Vedic literature and of the samadhi of the sages.

 

 

[bija]

 

Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter Nine Verse Seventeen

 

I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable oḿ. I am also the Rg, the Sama and the Yajur Vedas.

 

PURPORT

The entire cosmic manifestations, moving and nonmoving, are manifested by different activities of Krsna's energy. In the material existence we create different relationships with different living entities who are nothing but Krsna's marginal energy; under the creation of prakrti some of them appear as our father, mother, grandfather, creator, etc., but actually they are parts and parcels of Krsna. As such, these living entities who appear to be our father, mother, etc., are nothing but Krsna. In this verse the word dhata means "creator." Not only are our father and mother parts and parcels of Krsna, but the creator, grandmother and grandfather, etc., are also Krsna. Actually any living entity, being part and parcel of Krsna, is Krsna. All the Vedas, therefore, aim only toward Krsna. Whatever we want to know through the Vedas is but a progressive step toward understanding Krsna. That subject matter which helps us purify our constitutional position is especially Krsna. Similarly, the living entity who is inquisitive to understand all Vedic principles is also part and parcel of Krsna and as such is also Krsna. In all the Vedic mantras the word oḿ, called pranava, is a transcendental sound vibration and is also Krsna. And because in all the hymns of the four Vedas — Sama, Yajur, Rg and Arthva — the pranava, or omkara, is very prominent, it is understood to be Krsna.

I cannot extract one part of Bhagavatam as absolute truth, ie Canto Ten Krsna Lila, and reject another part, ie Canto Five, as mundane or imperfect.

So how to reconcile these things? That is not easy to explain for me. Firstly Srila Bhaktivinoda's understandings in the above quotes I have posted in this topic do not minimize the completeness, perfection, and total absolute nature of the whole Bhagavatam. That is very important in my understanding and realization, and faith.

Basically I see the Bhagavatam as Srila Vyasadeva's perfect samadhi, and therefore his expression in written word. I accept this by faith. A very advanced stage of Krsna consciousness would be able to see the Bhagavatam as 'the spotless purana'. Such was the vision of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This is why regular reading of the Bhagavatam is recommended by Sri Caitanya and all his direct associates.

Some would justify Sri Caitanya's words by saying, 'oh yes it is spotless because the Bhagavatam extols Bhakti as the highest goal. Pure.' But a closer study of the Bhagavatam reveals that it caters for all transcendentalists. There is Jnana, Yoga, etc.

So why did Sri Caitanya call it spotless? In my humble opinion for the very same reason Srila Prabhupada called it spotless. For it is without defect! How is this so with apparent paradox like the fifth canto and tenth canto?

Simply because it is the expression of the samadhi of Srila Vyasadeva. It is directly from the spiritual realm.

Can we disect Tenth canto apart from other sections of this book. Or is there a deeper Krsna conscious way to see the book in its totality as all perfect, without any mundane taint? Maybe we can attain that developed vision by aspiring the service of the mahatmas.

 

All the Vedas, therefore, aim only toward Krsna. Whatever we want to know through the Vedas is but a progressive step toward understanding Krsna. That subject matter which helps us purify our constitutional position is especially Krsna.

If the vedic literature is also Krsna, there must be no mundane attribute in it. Only by very advanced Krsna consciousness will we understand why Srila Prabhupada and other mahatmas can say authoritively, vedic litertaure is 'all spiritual - non different to Sri Krsna'.

 

By analyzing all these different energies of Krsna, one can ascertain that for Krsna there is no distinction between matter and spirit, or, in other words, He is both matter and spirit. In the advanced stage of Krsna consciousness, one therefore makes no such distinctions. He sees only Krsna in everything.

 

Therefore Sri Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada take no indirect meanings from Srimad Bhagavatam (commentary of Vedanta Sutra), but accept it directly 'As It Is'.

 

 

CC Ādi 7.131: "In all the Vedic sūtras and literatures, it is Lord Krsna who is to be understood, but the followers of Sankaracarya have covered the real meaning of the Vedas with indirect explanations.

PURPORT

It is said:

vede rāmāyaṇe caiva purane bharate tatha

ādāv ante ca madhye ca hariḥ sarvatra giyate

"In the Vedic literature, including the ramayana, Purāṇas and Mahābhārata, from the very beginning (adau) to the end (ante ca), as well as within the middle (madhye ca), only Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is explained."

 

CC Ādi 7.132: "The self-evident Vedic literatures are the highest evidence of all, but if these literatures are interpreted, their self-evident nature is lost.

PURPORT

We quote Vedic evidence to support our statements, but if we interpret it according to our own judgment, the authority of the Vedic literature is rendered imperfect or useless. In other words, by interpreting the Vedic version one minimizes the value of Vedic evidence. When one quotes from Vedic literature, it is understood that the quotations are authoritative. How can one bring the authority under his own control? That is a case of principiis obsta.

 

CC Ādi 7.133: "To prove their philosophy, the members of the Mayavada school have given up the real, easily understood meaning of the Vedic literature and introduced indirect meanings based on their imaginative powers."

PURPORT

Unfortunately, the Śańkarite interpretation has covered almost the entire world. Therefore there is a great need to present the original, easily understood natural import of the Vedic literature. We have therefore begun by presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, and we propose to present all the Vedic literature in terms of the direct meaning of its words.

[Dark Warrior]

 

One thing that seems to be considered heretical by most here, so much so that it never comes up even, is the thought that maybe the cosmology of the fifth canto is just wrong and is solely based on the beliefs of those peoples before modern astronomical instruments were devised.

 

This is basically my view and it doesn't diminish the transcendental knowledge I find in the Bhagavatam one tiny bit.

 

No offense, but I have seen some of your posts where you have mentioned that even the Mahabharata War might be an allegory, so I am not really expecting you to place faith in our rishis. No orthodox Vaishnava thinks the way you do.

 

You see, if we were to believe that Krishna and Rama lila are mere allegories and simply illustrate God's accessibility, its not Vaishnava theology. This means, your belief is restricted to the fact that - God exist, he has a personal form, and he loves us. If this God were not Vishnu with 4 hands and many avatars, our acharyas wouldn't have debated with other personal sects like Shaivas. After all, Shiva worship is also personal, then why isn't it transcendental?

 

Every aspect of scripture is the truth. When great jnanis like our acharyas, who explained deep meanings, took this as fact, what prevents you, who does not even know the basics, to deem it as allegory? It means you consider yourself superior to Sukadeva and Pariksheet themselves.

 

That is illogical because we have to be sure that scripture explains the material phenomena perfectly well.

 

It would be stupid to assume that our rishis had the divine vision to see Lord Rama and Lord Krishna's lilas, but could not even find out whether the Earth is flat or round. How are we supposed to take their words on the unseen when they can't even explain the obvious?

 

Actually, I am quite confident that the Bhagavatam 5th canto is logical. Its just that nobody can envision the depths of its knowledge. For instance, it is mentioned that Brahma in another Universe may have a million heads. This is impossible to conceive, but it can be reconciled if we think of multiple dimensions existing beyond our perception.

 

The cosmology simply cannot be wrong because Vedic Scriptures are able to explain God, the Soul and many other supernatural concepts with ease. Therfore, considering that so much of knowledge has been explained so well, it isn't a blind belief to assume that the cosmology can also make sense. The Vedic way is a scientific method, its just a matter of interpretation.

 

The Bhagavatam has presented some things as the truth and as factual events. Therfore, to consider them as allegorical would be to say that the author is a liar.

 

I have read that book by an ISKCON scholar where he gives 4 different explanations for the 5th canto. For instance, the flat disk (Bhu-Mandala) is not the Earth, but the orbital plane...such application of pratyaksha is definitely acceptable.

[Sarva gattah]

 

One thing that seems to be considered heretical by most here, so much so that it never comes up even, is the thought that maybe the cosmology of the fifth canto is just wrong and is solely based on the beliefs of those peoples before modern astronomical instruments were devised.

 

This is basically my view and it doesn't diminish the transcendental knowledge I find in the Bhagavatam one tiny bit.

Or possibly the cosmos are different now than when the Bhagavat Purana was compiled. Regardless of even if that, the fact remains we are not seeing the complete picture of the material universe, we are not seeing the ethereal world of embodied baddha-jivas and the subtle material dimension they live in, that is actually all around us. Go and visit a hospital, the Yamadutas are always there but can you see them?

The question still remains, what would the complete material universe (mahat-tattva) look like if we could see the gross and subtle realities together?

One thing is certain, the solar system would look nothing like what modern humanity can only experience with his or her limited biological senses and the material extensions the scientists have made.

Modern man have cleverly made instruments so those 'restricted biological senses' can see more of what only 'computes' with the biological senses, like the Humble Telescope and the Electron Microscope, there is no instrument the scientists have developed that can view the subtle material world and the embodied (meaning an ethereal vessel made also of material, yet non biological energy) baddha-jivas who live there.

Individually one can realize this part of material creation and even see and experience such subtle worlds, but such yogis know they can NEVER prove what they see and experience through the medium of the biological senses or the extended scientific instruments designed pacifically for the biological senses to see what they already see, but magnified.

Such methods will never ever discover the heavenly, hellish or ghostly MATTERIAL mundane temporary worlds, let alone the eternal creation beyond this material mahat-tattva creation known as Vaikuntha where everyone is eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa servants of Krishna or one of His unlimited Vishnu-tattva expansions

[cbrahma]

 

Or possibly the cosmos are different now than when the Bhagavat Purana was compiled. Regardless of even if that, the fact remains we are not seeing the complete picture of the material universe, we are not seeing the ethereal world of embodied baddha-jivas and the subtle material dimension they live in, that is actually all around us. Go and visit a hospital, the Yamadutas are always there but can you see them?

The question still remains, what would the complete material universe (mahat-tattva) look like if we could see the gross and subtle realities together?

One thing is certain, the solar system would look nothing like what modern humanity can only experience with his or her limited biological senses and the material extensions the scientists have made.

Modern man have cleverly made instruments so those 'restricted biological senses' can see more of what only 'computes' with the biological senses, like the Humble Telescope and the Electron Microscope, there is no instrument the scientists have developed that can view the subtle material world and the embodied (meaning an ethereal vessel made also of material, yet non biological energy) baddha-jivas who live there.

Individually one can realize this part of material creation and even see and experience such subtle worlds, but such yogis know they can NEVER prove what they see and experience through the medium of the biological senses or the extended scientific instruments designed pacifically for the biological senses to see what they already see, but magnified.

Such methods will never ever discover the heavenly, hellish or ghostly MATTERIAL mundane temporary worlds, let alone the eternal creation beyond this material mahat-tattva creation known as Vaikuntha where everyone is eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa servants of Krishna or one of His unlimited Vishnu-tattva expansions

So all the vast database of astronomy and astrophysics is just a compilation of illusions however precise and consistent.

[Sarva gattah]

 

So all the vast database of astronomy and astrophysics is just a compilation of illusions however precise and consistent.

 

No, what they see is real yet temporary, which is what the word illusion really means when describing the three worlds of the mahat-tattva. However on our middle planatary earth planet, we do not see the full picture of the MUNDANE material creation or the other heavenly, hellish or ghostly worlds above us, below us and all around us.

The geography maps, atlas, etc are only showing us what our biological senses are ONLY seeing, hearing, touching, experiencing in a dimensional time of its own. The REAL advanced materialistic yogis and Sadus can see all the three material world at once.

 

However, not even them can see what a genuine pure devotee of Krishna can see, for not only does he see the mahat-tattva, but he also sees the creator of the mahat-tattva Maha-Vishnu sleeping and generating the billions of Universes. The pure devotee of Krishna sees even beyond Maha-Vishnu into the perpetual universes of the Vaikuntha’s, and the central Goloka Vrndavana abode of Radha Krishna and Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

[cbrahma]

Not to mention that the gross visible earth is supposed to be the center and carried on the back of a turtle. The four directions are maintained by elephants....etc...

The sun planet is pulled along (to counteract what forces is a mystery) by a chariot with horses round and round for millenia.

[theist]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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One thing that seems to be considered heretical by most here, so much so that it never comes up even, is the thought that maybe the cosmology of the fifth canto is just wrong and is solely based on the beliefs of those peoples before modern astronomical instruments were devised.

This is basically my view and it doesn't diminish the transcendental knowledge I find in the Bhagavatam one tiny bit.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

No offense, but I have seen some of your posts where you have mentioned that even the Mahabharata War might be an allegory, so I am not really expecting you to place faith in our rishis. No orthodox Vaishnava thinks the way you do.

[cbrahma]

What theist said on another thread on another topic is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

There are so many members here who specialize in misrepresenting what has been said, make false inferences, commit 'ad hominem' and a whole variety of fallacies. This does not increase their credibility. One does that because one doesn't have options based on substantial evidence and argumentation.

The fact that they don't know better turns so many of these threads into meta-arguments trying to straighten out all the misrepresentation which only becomes more and more misrepresented.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Not to mention that the gross visible earth is supposed to be the center and carried on the back of a turtle. The four directions are maintained by elephants....etc...

The sun planet is pulled along (to counteract what forces is a mystery) by a chariot with horses round and round for millenia.

 

The human biological senses are a gross covering of our ethereal containment and blocks out our ability to understand what you have mentioned. Because of that gross biological coving of ignorance, we are unable to see and experience such fantastic realities. Such legendary tales are beyond the belief of modern material science. This is because they only believe in what they see, just like the frog in the well only believed what he could see.

The subtle realities you have described are way beyond our concept of even mundane time and material space that modern science and Professor Hawkins are baffled by. What you have described is very advanced for our primitive gross materialistic Society of the early 21st century

The human biological body or vessel is actually a benediction in a Kali-yuga that Lord Caitanya appears in, such a vessel, unlike other species of biological vessels and even the demigods in ethereal vessels, can be used as an instrument to understand the truth by chanting the Hare Krishna mantra and being touched by Pure Bhakti, only to realize and regain our eternal relationship with Krishna and Go back home, back to Godhead.

[tanish73]

i want to see the truth whether there is god or ghost

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Theist

Not sure I understand this sentence???.

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It means who cares once your back home back serving Krishna. It’s like waking up from a nightmare, you just brush it off – ‘Oh it was only a silly dream’. After all the material creation is not only the dream of Maha-Vishnu but also the dream of the jiva soul.

[theist]

 

Or possibly the cosmos are different now than when the Bhagavat Purana was compiled. Regardless of even if that, the fact remains we are not seeing the complete picture of the material universe, we are not seeing the ethereal world of embodied baddha-jivas and the subtle material dimension they live in, that is actually all around us. Go and visit a hospital, the Yamadutas are always there but can you see them?

 

Indeed the cosmos must be different because it's nature is endless flux.

 

We are never seeing the complete picture of anythng in the material world. Take one's finger for example. I see it is a finger that can perform a certain action when connected to the rest of my hand. But how does a bacteria that is living on my finger see it? Very differently for sure.

 

And a surgeon operating on my finger will not only see it in terms of it's function but will also see the nerves arteries bones etc. involved whereas my own vision generally stops at the skin.

 

A physicist will see see atoms and sub-atomic particles and may become so involved in those particles that he forgets the finger as a finger entirely.

 

A metaphyscian will see the subtle astral finger behind the form of the gross finger and that will capture his attention for the most part.

 

A transcendentalist will see the living force or self behind it all and the Vaisnava transcendentalist will see the Superself beyond even the eternal self and His consciousness will be fixed there and see everything else in relation to the Superself.

 

So my question is why are followers of Vaisnavism spending so much time trying to promote a certain vision of this temporary hallucination called the material universe?

 

The real focus for the Vaisnava should be to show how the Lord is existing within everything no matter what the details of that structure may be. The Intelligence in Intelligent Design is more important than what is the form of the design.

 

[theist]

 

Quote:

<table style="margin-left: 15pt; width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 0.75pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">I believe strongly that it is up to Lord Caitanya’s movement to answer these questions, so much so, that as you suggest - who cares about the multidimensional material world when you have pure bhakti given to us by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by Theist

Not sure I understand this sentence???.

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It means who cares once your back home back serving Krishna. It’s like waking up from a nightmare, you just brush it off – ‘Oh it was only a silly dream’. After all the material creation is not only the dream of Maha-Vishnu but also the dream of the jiva soul.

 

I agree with that.

[Sarva gattah]

 

A transcendentalist will see the living force or self behind it all and the Vaisnava transcendentalist will see the Superself beyond even the eternal self and His consciousness will be fixed there and see everything else in relation to the Superself.

 

So my question is why are followers of Vaisnavism spending so much time trying to promote a certain vision of this temporary hallucination called the material universe?

 

The real focus for the Vaisnava should be to show how the Lord is existing within everything no matter what the details of that structure may be. The Intelligence in Intelligent Design is more important than what is the form of the design.

 

Excellent!

There is no need but it will happen to benefit the materialists so they can dovetail their mundane science into Vedic science over the next 5000 years of Lord Caitanya’s Golden age. We can all go back home now but for those conditioned souls who want to dream on in this material world, the Vedic Planetarium can help them in the withdrawal process out of material existence. Some souls want to know how the material creation operates.

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Only by the blessing of Bhakti can anyone who reads what you have explained, will understand (This comment I humbly make for the benefit of those who have not performed service to one of Krishna's pure devotees or have not performed service at a Radha Krishna Temple).

 

In other words, for those who have not performed bhakti (serving a pure devotee, dancing in front of the Deities chanting Hare Krishna, serving prasad to others, EATING AND HONORING PRASAD, washing Krishnas pots, distributing Prabhupada’s books, cleaning the temple room, visiting Vrndavana and Mayapur, being kind to every living entity because ultimately or eventually, they ARE devotees of Lord, etc etc), they cannot understand this or the depths of Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita. What to speak of the pastimes of Lord Caitanya.

 

The Caitanya Caritamrita is only for the devotees of Krishna, for only they can understand such an elevated explanation of Bhakti. To be a devotee and enter the wonderful world of Krishna Consciousness, simply always chant Hare Krishna mantra and serve the pure devotees

[Sarva gattah]

 

i want to see the truth whether there is god or ghost

 

You must be a little qualified to see the truth, just like if you go to Africa and purchase diamonds, first you must have some idea of what a diamond is so you will not be cheated. This is the same principle when searching for God and the true purpose of existence.

 

To be a devotee and enter the wonderful world of Krishna Consciousness, simply always chant Hare Krishna mantra and serve the pure devotees, go to your nearest Hare Krishna Temple, dance in front of the Deities chanting Hare Krishna, serve prasad to others, EAT AND HONORING HEEPS OF PRASADAM YOURSELF (wonderful vegetarian food offered to Lord Krishna)

and see your pathway to Vaikuntha begin. To the perpetual Kingdom of God (Krishna's eternal abode)

[Ashvatama]

 

The human biological senses are a gross covering of our ethereal containment and blocks out our ability to understand what you have mentioned. Because of that gross biological coving of ignorance, we are unable to see and experience such fantastic realities. Such legendary tales are beyond the belief of modern material science. This is because they only believe in what they see, just like the frog in the well only believed what he could see.

 

 

 

The Frog in the Shallow Well

 

 

Once a frog that lived in a well bragged to a turtle that lived in the Sea.

"I am so happy!" cried the frog, "When I go out, I jump about on the railing around the edge of the well.

When I come home, I rest in the holes inside the wall of the well.

If I jump into the water, it comes all the way up to my armpits and I can float on my belly.

If I walk in the mud, it covers up my flippered feet.

I look around at the wriggly worms, crabs, and tadpoles, and none of them can compare with me.

I am lord of this well and I stand tall here. My happiness is great.

My dear sir, why don't you come more often and look around my place?"

Before the turtle from the Sea could get its left foot in the well, its right knee got stuck. It hesitated and retreated. The turtle told the frog about the Sea.

"Even a distance of a thousand miles cannot give you an idea of the sea's width; even a height of a thousand meters cannot give you an idea of its depth. In the time of the great floods, the waters in the sea did not increase. During the terrible droughts, the waters in the sea did not decrease. The sea does not change along with the passage of time and its level does not rise or fall according to the amount of rain that falls. The greatest happiness is to live in the Sea."

After listening to these words, the frog of the shallow well was shocked into the realization of his own insignificance, that foolishly believed his well and its small surroundings was all that existed

[theist]

 

There is no need but it will happen to benefit the materialists so they can dovetail their mundane science into Vedic science over the next 5000 years of Lord Caitanya’s Golden age. We can all go back home now but for those conditioned souls who want to dream on in this material world, the Vedic Planetarium can help them in the withdrawal process out of material existence. Some souls want to know how the material creation operates.

But Sarva, I still stand behind the point I made earlier. There is no benefit to material scientists abandoning their methods and believing in the fifth cantos version of things and they will never agree to it anyway. They will just see this type of reasoning as one more reason to not believe in God and thus this type of preaching will have an opposite effect then the desired one. It will strengthen atheism as opposed to theism.

 

Devotees have a higher mission IMO, and that is to point to the self and Superself and the way materialistic scientists can be engaged by such intelligent and educated devotees such as Sadaputa das, is to engage them in the Intelligent Design debate. He may already do that I don't know but all I ever hear are citations about his trying to rationalize the fifth canto. Right or wrong such arguments will not bear much fruit.