If we could only see what the material univese really looks like?

[bija]

Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krsna! Sarva...

 

I enjoyed so much reading your posts this morning. One point in particular. You said yogis etc can see all at once the mundane, heavenly, and ghostly planes...but only the devotee advanced in Krsna consciousness can see Vaikuntha and Sri Sri Radha Krsna. I appreciate your faith in this regard.

 

I dont think seeing subtle realms is so uncommon. I see ghosts, have seen vimana in 1977, so many things, I see extensions of subtle bodies...and have met others who see similar. And I am no great yogi. But what does all this avail (I will not say it is a curse, but what foolish desires I must have within). Many people due to various reasons can see more subtle realms here. But definately divine vision of Radha-Krsna is not so easily attained. A fleeting glimpse of Their beauty makes all that subtle mind knowledge, dust, and then a longing to be free of it! I speak from realization here. To be free of these unnecassary desires that plague the heart birth after birth. How fortunate if we meet a pure devotee.....

 

For devotees like yourself who have had the good fortune to dance in the temple, have association of devotees, take maha-prasadam etc etc, I have no doubt in my mind that such activities will open the heart to the Divine Couples realm. Such association is very rare and not easily accessible to some of us. You are so fortunate, please take full advantage of that rare opportunity and gift from God.

 

In a way I agree with Theist on one point. It is not necessary to see all the subtle realms. Infact it is a great hinderance. Sometimes the more we tangibly see of the subtle material energy, with the eyes of our mind, we can become captivated, even to the point of seeking subtle material pleasures, fame, and subtle ego based desires.

 

So how fortunate is the soul who in simplicity only aspires directly to see Sri GaurangaKrsna. From reading the Gita As It Is, I perceive that is Srila Prabhupada's recommendation too.

 

Saying that, some souls need to go up to heavenly planets and other realms of the mind. But blessed are those who can taste the nectar of Sri Gauranga's mercy directly. Jaya Nitaai. I offer my respects to such a soul.

 

y.s.

[Dark Warrior]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> While I strongly suspect the battle at Kurukshtra did not taken place as described except in literary form my main point is that to me IT JUST DOES NOT MATTER. I don't hinge my faith in Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead on such a thing.

 

So, you are basically admitting that your faith is more similar to the 'unknown' God who is kind and merciful, and personal.

 

Your 'Krsna' is not the same Sri Krishna of Vaishnavas. It appears as though your 'Supreme Personality of Godhead' is simply an extension of the semitic God, mixed with a bit of Vaishnava theology.

 

I have noticed that you keep harping about your 'Krsna', but never have you mentioned any of His kalyana gunas. They are completely hidden from you.

 

Let me assure you of this - The war is factual. The whole purpose of the war was to demonstrate the lila of Sri Krishna. And if you deem the war to be an allegory, then the fact that Sri Krishna has a flute and a peacock feather, is bluish black, etc. is also an allegory to you.

 

You appear to contradict yourself in many ways.

 

 

IOW's is someone proves that such a war did not take place it does not shake my faith in the truth contained in the Bhagavad-gita one tiny bit. And if someone proves that it did actually happen it does not add to my faith one tiny bit.

 

This view is similar to the views of many advaitins who assert that everything is metaphorical, and only the spiritual truth is to be gleaned.

 

Let me assure you that the Kurukshetra war actually happened. Because no other religion can profess to know of God the way we do. Ironically, Vivekananda said the same thing, 'It does not matter if Krishna existed, what is more important is the message'.

 

Theist sounds like one of those 'oh so dreadful' mayavadis now.

 

 

I am trying to anchor my faith in the unchanging Absolute Truth quite free from archeological findings or historical accuracy. For instance it is commonly said the bhagavatam is 5,0000 years. Others say it is 1,500 years old. The arguement is useless to me. As I have often said I don't care if the Bhagavatam fell out of the sky yesterday with no known author the truth contained within it would be just as relevant to me.

 

The trouble is, the Upanishads and the Vedas do not talk of an 'absolute truth' that is unknown to all of us. They talk of a God who comes down historically and performs His lilas. The whole basis of our sampradaya is that Sri Hari descends to show Himself to us.

 

You do not profess to be a Vaishnava, that is good. But do not spread your distorted teachings to innocent minds. Atleast, they will have a better chance at realisation then.

 

 

 

Let me stop you there. I never said krishna's pastimes were mere allegories nor do I believe they are. I believe Krishna-lila is the LITERARY incarnation of those eternal pastimes. Do you see the difference.

 

How clever. You are tacitly denying the historicity of the lilas, but implying on their 'literary' value and their spiritual message.

 

This is rubbish. Tell me where in our scriptures say, 'this lila is literary and not factual'.

 

It is historical. There is no proof to say otherwise. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Indeed, the reason why so many people are unaware of its historicity is because of Vishnu's maya. Your Karma prevents you from enjoying Him fully.

 

Theist, you may chant 'Hare Krishna' all you want, but at best, all you will get is a simple transcendental experience, as you call it. Unless and until Sri Krishna is experienced as the true God, one cannot understand Him completely.

 

 

 

Because they represent examples of the eternal divine and LITERAL rasas that one can have with the Supreme Person they are eternal and real. The truth of Krishna-lila is not dependent on being literal in the 3D sense of the word. The truth of Krishna cannot be dependent on our 3D perception of it.

 

If so, then how can you say you believe in Krishna? You simply profess to believe in a God who is personal. This God apparently gives us metaphorical scriptures for 'transcendental pleasure', but ultimately, these are only real in the literary sense.

 

I do not know why I am wasting my time with these confused persons.

 

Note the words 'represent' and 'literal'. Theist has revealed his semitic identity here. Only those religions rely on parables and miracles.

 

When it comes to Vaishnavism, every story is about God's attributes. No attribute of God can be illustrated by parables or metaphors sufficiently. Therfore, it is historical.

 

Theist is an agnostic. Plain and simple.

 

 

Those that think Krishna-lila is dependent on Krishna having actually performed them in a 3D way are really the ones saying that Krishna-lila is a non literal occurance because for something to be literal in the true sense of the world must mean it is eternal. This is the higher meaning of the word literal and I am trying to use it in it's highest and therefore transcendental sense.

 

Good lord, it is obvious to me that you haven't even realised ONE attribute of Sri Krishna. This is such a stupid comment that I don't even deign to answer this one.

 

Theist, you are not a believer of Krishna. Just admit it. Why do you then want to bring Vaishnavism into this tacky blend of beliefs? This is no way connected to Sanatana Dharma, and is no way related to Krishna either.

 

Sri Krishna says in Gita,

 

'Of the thousands of people striving to acheive Me, hardly one knows Me in truth.'

 

It is a pity. By the grace of Krishna, many people come to know of His divine lilas. But their karma prevents them from enjoying it fully, and as a result, they spread dangerous messages to others, influencing them.

 

I think a comment from Sri Manavala Mamunigal, a Sri Vaishnava acharya, is appropriate here:

 

'Astikas (Believers) are great, and Nastikas (unbelievers) are fine as well. But beware of Astika Nastikas, ie, believers who preach the wrong message. They are the most dangerous.'

 

Atleast, advaitins are open in their declaration that all our scriptures are mythological. They are a thousand times better than people like Theist who masquerade as devotees of Krishna and express agnostic views.

 

Happy Sri Rama Navami to everyone.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Note the words 'represent' and 'literal'. Theist has revealed his semitic identity here. Only those religions rely on parables and miracles.

 

Then you may care to enlighten us a little about Ugrasena's 30 TRILLION bodyguards. Where did they live, and what about their wives, children and relatives? Did they moonlight as road-sweepers? Perhaps they all existed in a parallel reality, unseen by the peoples of this world? You seem to not be capable of differentiating between Hindu mythology and real spiritual essence. I differ with Theist on many counts, but his standpoint is far more rational and reasonable than your childish insistence on the historicity of what amounts to nothing more than poetic licence and in some instances pre-scientific hyperbole.

 

Religion has a purpose to serve, and that purpose does not equate with what contemporary scholarship purports to offer; in fact, only those who have relinquished the power of reason can have the cheek to place the imaginatively rich fables of old on a par with modern science.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Theist, you are not a believer of Krishna. Just admit it. Why do you then want to bring Vaishnavism into this tacky blend of beliefs? This is no way connected to Sanatana Dharma, and is no way related to Krishna either.

 

For the record, it has been copiously documented that Sanatana Dharma doesn't feature in ANY Sanskrit text as a moniker or appellation, but is indeed a 19th century phrase that was coined by some jingoistic Indians during the Raj, so as to describe the family of faiths that modern Hinduism is. I personally therefore abstain from utilising it, knowing full well that is not what the Vedas say about the tradition that they embody.

[theist]

Dark Warrior. let it suffice to say you have totally misunderstood my position entirely and I have no desire to try to explain myself further to you personally. Understanding my position is not important for anyone except myself. If anyone is curious about my position it is no secret and I will explain it but not to a person who simply wants to engage in endless silly little schoolboy debates such as yourself. You see I have no need to convert anyone else to my way of thinking. I'll speak my mind and defend my position if I deem it somehow productive to do so, otherwise not.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Dark Warrior. let it suffice to say you have totally misunderstood my position entirely and I have no desire to try to explain myself further to you personally. Understanding my position is not important for anyone except myself. If anyone is curious about my position it is no secret and I will explain it but not to a person who simply wants to engage in endless silly little schoolboy debates such as yourself. You see I have no need to convert anyone else to my way of thinking. I'll speak my mind and defend my position if I deem it somehow productive to do so, otherwise not.

 

Good. You are very mature. I also feel that it isn't necessary for me to argue with every confused soul that turns up the pike.

 

Theist, Bhagavatalover, and some others belong in the same ilk.

[theist]

 

Then you may care to enlighten us a little about Ugrasena's 30 TRILLION bodyguards. Where did they live, and what about their wives, children and relatives? Did they moonlight as road-sweepers? Perhaps they all existed in a parallel reality, unseen by the peoples of this world? You seem to not be capable of differentiating between Hindu mythology and real spiritual essence. I differ with Theist on many counts, but his standpoint is far more rational and reasonable than your childish insistence on the historicity of what amounts to nothing more than poetic licence and in some instances pre-scientific hyperbole.

 

Yes here we do agree. I have asked this question about Ugrsena's bodyguards several time on this forum and never gotten a good answer, still we that question these things are heretics to the orthodox Vaisnavas who for some reason think their Vaisnava position is dependent on the 3d literal interpretation of such stories. This to me says they have little faith and depth of understanding when it comes to Vaisnavism in general. Which is precisely my point in saying they are misplacing their faith . Somewhat analgous to mistaking the finger for the moon in Lao Tsu's saying.

[theist]

Dark Warrior,

 

Please explain how Ugrsena could have accomodated his billions of bodyguards and their families in Mathura.

 

Please don't dodge the question. We await a specific and complete answer.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Yes here we do agree. I have asked this question about Ugrsena's bodyguards several time on this forum and never gotten a good answer, still we that question these things are heretics to the orthodox Vaisnavas who for some reason think their Vaisnava position is dependent on the 3d literal interpretation of such stories. This to me says they have little faith and depth of understanding when it comes to Vaisnavism in general. Which is precisely my point in saying they are misplacing their faith . Somewhat analgous to mistaking the finger for the moon in Lao Tsu's saying.

 

Indeed, Theist. For all our philosophical differences, I think that people like Kulapavana and yourself have a far more sensible approach to such portions of the Bhagavatam than the strict literalists. Whilst fully committed to Srila Prabhupada's shiksha, you guys do strive not to be overburdened by mythology and poetic embellishments. For me, that's the right way to go, no question about that.

 

Regards

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Please explain how Ugrsena could have accomodated his billions of bodyguards and their families in Mathura.

 

Not billions, but THIRTY TRILLION, when the population of the globe is currently short of 7 billion.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Dark Warrior,

 

Please explain how Ugrsena could have accomodated his billions of bodyguards and their families in Mathura.

 

Please don't dodge the question. We await a specific and complete answer.

 

Look, I am trying to be patient here.

 

Your questions range on 'how could Ravana have 10 heads?', 'How could Ugrasena have billions of bodyguards?', etc. The answer is, we cannot, in the mordern world perceive of a person with 60000 wives, or having 10 heads, etc. But what we do know is that Smiriti talks about the Kalyana Gunas of the Lord. And it posits these events as factual.

 

Since these attributes of the Lord are described gloriously, there is no reason to assume it as myth. The texts talk about this event taking place in Dwapara Yuga. Nobody knows what Mathura may have been like in Dwapara Yuga.

 

Therfore, it is to be concluded that there is talk of other lokas, and other dimensions. Thus, even a billion bodyguards would have fit in Mathura if there were extra dimensions.

 

The bloody point I am trying to make is, you cannot reject it as myth if you can't perceive with your senses. Scripture clearly says people of Dwapara Yuga are different from those of Kali Yuga. Therfore, there is no doubt that they exhibit powers. Thus, pratyaksha is not applicable.

 

The whole argument isn't about whether our sastras are true or not. the point is, YOU are not a Vaishnava, nor do you know anything about Krishna.

 

 

Not billions, but THIRTY TRILLION, when the population of the globe is currently short of 7 billion

 

This moron has inadvertantly supported my case. NOW, the population is 7 billion. During the Dwapara Yuga, sastras say that people were in contact with other Lokas. Nobody knows the population count 5000 years ago, or a million years ago. So, both of you clam up.

[theist]

No matter the number. I think Prabhupada wrote six billion in Krsna book but I could be misrememebring. I'll check it. Either way it is an impossible number.

 

Lets wait for the non-response. Dark Warrior is on-line now with us in real time. I hope he answers before I go back to sleep in a little while.

 

edit:

Glory be...he already answered. let's see if he dodged.

[Dark Warrior]

 

No matter the number. I think Prabhupada wrote six billion in Krsna book but I could be misrememebring. I'll check it. Either way it is an impossible number.

 

Lets wait for the non-response. Dark Warrior is on-line now with us in real time. I hope he answers before I go back to sleep in a little while.

 

edit:

Glory be...he already answered. let's see if he dodged.

 

Mocking does not quite become you. With your scant knowledge of Krishna, you have absolutely nothing to argue.

 

Remember that everything has a cause. Bhagavatam also pertains to other yugas. Mathura in another yuga may be bigger.

[theist]

LOL. Dodge with the usual "must have been extra dimesions excuse."

 

I simply state that it can't be true in a 3d way and I get called a heretic and then the same characters tell me it must have involved other dimsensions which is another way of saying it could not have happened in the 3d world of the earth as we know it.

IOW you are saying the same thing Dark Warrior and don't even recognize it.

 

Sheesh:rolleyes:

[Dark Warrior]

 

LOL. Dodge with the usual "must have been extra dimesions excuse."

 

I simply state that it can't be true in a 3d way and I get called a heretic and then the same characters tell me it must have involved other dimsensions which is another way of saying it could not have happened in the 3d world of the earth as we know it.

 

IOW you are saying the same thing Dark Warrior and don't even recognize it.

 

Sheesh:rolleyes:

 

 

And why can't it be true in a 3D way? Either Mathura is bigger in other yugas, or basically, the Devas and Asuras, who come from other Lokas, are able to use their powers to live in large numbers.

 

The book says Ugrasena had this many bodyguards. It does not say how, or in what way, he had them. Therfore, we are forced to speculate.

 

Do you profess to say that we know everything about Devas? For all you know, they may be able to live without eating. And do you profess to know everything about the material universe?

 

In one of the texts, it says Indra shrunk himself to the size of an atom and lived in the fibre of a plant. So, it could be easily possible for people of Dwapara Yuga to attain powers by penance. Ugrasena could have some device that enabled this particular act to come to fruition.

 

Look, I am outlining it for you:

 

1) Vedas and Upanishads are apaurusheya.

 

2) They endorse Smriti.

 

3) Smriti calls itself factual.

 

4) There is no other religion that can even rival the amount of knowledge found here. Therfore, if you are theist, this is the only complete way.

 

5) The whole concept of metaphor is unvedic because the whole purpose of Vedic concept is to show how God Himself descends.

 

EDIT: Even the 'extra dimensions' is speculation. For all we know, Ugrasena fit his bodyguards in Mathura somehow. Possibly with help of Penance, possibly by his own device. If you believe in Krishna, this is how you should take it.

 

Unless you accept this, you are not a Vaishnava. So get off your high horse. Your 'Krsna' is an adaptation of your Christian God.

[theist]

"Mathura may have been bigger in other yugas."

 

What you are suggesting is that the Earth itself must have been about as big as the Sun only 5,000 years ago. Remember Krishna is said to have come at the cusp of Dwapara and Kali-yuga. So you are saying that 5,000 years ago the Earth suddenly shrank from a Sun sized globe down it's present size.

 

This type of presentation of Krsna consciousness will insure that it never be taken seriously in an educated society. Well done literalist. I rank you all up there with the Young Earth Creationists who say the earth is only 6-10,000 years old based on their (mis)-interpretation of the Bible.

 

Afterall according to you the Earth shrank DRAMATICALLY 5,000 years to it's present size which is essentially a new earth from the previous one.

[theist]

Too boring. I'm going back to sleep.

 

[Dark Warrior]

 

"Mathura may have been bigger in other yugas."

 

What you are suggesting is that the Earth itself must have been about as big as the Sun only 5,000 years ago. Remember Krishna is said to have come at the cusp of Dwapara and Kali-yuga. So you are saying that 5,000 years ago the Earth suddenly shrank from a Sun sized globe down it's present size.

 

This type of presentation of Krsna consciousness will insure that it never be taken seriously in an educated society. Well done literalist. I rank you all up there with the Young Earth Creationists who say the earth is only 6-10,000 years old based on their (mis)-interpretation of the Bible.

 

Afterall according to you the Earth shrank DRAMATICALLY 5,000 years to it's present size which is essentially a new earth from the previous one.

 

I am talking about other Chathur Yugas. Afghanistan may have been America in a previous Brahma's lifetime.

 

Brahma's lifespan is limited to 100 chathur yugas. In another Brahma's time, the Universe may have been bigger. The Earth may have been different. Mathura may have been vast. Nobody knows.

 

Bloody moron. Learn about Krishna more.

 

To summarise, these people are the sort who present distorted messages. Shruti talks about atman, which cannot be perceived. They accept it as fact. Smriti talks about fantastic things at the macro level. Why not accept it?

 

I am not also forcing them to accept it. I am telling them to stop masquerading as Vaishnavas.

 

And Theist, a simple question. I believe everything is true. You don't. See my post in the Rama Navami Thread. Have you been able to conceive of this much meaning in our sastra? No. This clearly shows that one who truly understands the Lord can alone divine meanings from sastra.

[theist]

One more thing. This is like in the late seventities when Iskconites all were saying the earth was flat. YES THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. I remem challenging them with the example of airplane travel and satelitte orbits and mapping of the planet. their stock answer was "The demigods must be playing tricks on all the demons by making them think the earth is round." LOL I swear that is the truth. Anybody who was around then can confirm this embarassing chapter. Dark Warrior is still living his own version.

 

BTW Dark Warrior do you believe the earth is flat also.

 

Now really, goodnight.

[Dark Warrior]

 

One more thing. This is like in the late seventities when Iskconites all were saying the earth was flat. YES THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. I remem challenging them with the example of airplane travel and satelitte orbits and mapping of the planet. their stock answer was "The demigods must be playing tricks on all the demons by making them think the earth is round." LOL I swear that is the truth. Anybody who was around then can confirm this embarassing chapter. Dark Warrior is still living his own version.

 

BTW Dark Warrior do you believe the earth is flat also.

 

Now really, goodnight.

 

 

I am not an ISKCONite. I do not refute that man has not travelled to the moon, etc.

 

There is plenty of science in our books. The time scales, the creation of the Universe, the sound OM (similar to String Theory), atomic science, etc. No sense in denying it.

 

What I do believe is, there is no proof for all this to have happened. But there is also no proof that this DID NOT happen. Then why the onesided outlook?

 

The texts profess that the Lord came to earth. Can you limit HIM to anything? If He wished, He could move the Earth to the Sun. Are you trying to say Krishna Himself cannot make this happen?

 

You and Bhagavatalover belong in the same platter.

 

EDIT: By the way, understand a basic fact - there is no absurdity in our scriptures, as they aren't man-made. You lack any sort of information and simply bleat, 'Oh Ravana has 10 heads, so its a myth'. By doing so, you are denying yourself of entering into Sri Krishna's understanding. I don't care if you are like this. Just do not spread it to everyone.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

One more thing. This is like in the late seventities when Iskconites all were saying the earth was flat. YES THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. I remem challenging them with the example of airplane travel and satelitte orbits and mapping of the planet. their stock answer was "The demigods must be playing tricks on all the demons by making them think the earth is round." LOL I swear that is the truth. Anybody who was around then can confirm this embarassing chapter. Dark Warrior is still living his own version.

 

Well put, Theist. This is so hilarious a depiction by the literalists that it defies description. I'd rather be lumped with the asuras any day than insult my intelligence and reasoning faculties in such grotesque fashion. Cheers

[Dark Warrior]

 

Well put, Theist. This is so hilarious a depiction by the literalists that it defies description. I'd rather be lumped with the asuras any day than insult my intelligence and reasoning faculties in such grotesque fashion. Cheers

This 'grotesque' fashion has been able to obtain many meanings from sastra that your puny minds cannot comprehend.

 

However, I fully agree that you,

[cbrahma]

 

The human biological senses are a gross covering of our ethereal containment and blocks out our ability to understand what you have mentioned. Because of that gross biological coving of ignorance, we are unable to see and experience such fantastic realities. Such legendary tales are beyond the belief of modern material science. This is because they only believe in what they see, just like the frog in the well only believed what he could see.

The subtle realities you have described are way beyond our concept of even mundane time and material space that modern science and Professor Hawkins are baffled by. What you have described is very advanced for our primitive gross materialistic Society of the early 21st century

The human biological body or vessel is actually a benediction in a Kali-yuga that Lord Caitanya appears in, such a vessel, unlike other species of biological vessels and even the demigods in ethereal vessels, can be used as an instrument to understand the truth by chanting the Hare Krishna mantra and being touched by Pure Bhakti, only to realize and regain our eternal relationship with Krishna and Go back home, back to Godhead.

 

The 'biological' body as you call it exists on the subtle plane as well, since generation happens there as well. In all the previous yugas, the denizens of earth have gross bodies? It doesn't seem very useful to explore such matters if we are so deluded that our science contradicts every detail of the account. Of course it makes no sense,since the earth planet IS gross matter and we are expected to believe a gross planet is being carried on the body of a subtle turtle.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

SB 10.90

 

TEXT 40

TEXT

yadu-vaàça-prasütänäà

puàsäà vikhyäta-karmaëäm

saìkhyä na çakyate kartum

api varñäyutair nåpa

 

SYNONYMS

yadu-vaàça—in the Yadu dynasty; prasütänäm—of those who were born; puàsäm—men; vikhyäta—famous; karmaëäm—whose deeds; saìkhyä—the counting; na çakyate—cannot; kartum—be done; api—even; varña—in years; ayutaiù—tens of thousands; nåpa—O King (Parékñit).

 

TRANSLATION

The Yadu dynasty produced innumerable great men of famous deeds. Even in tens of thousands of years, O King, one could never count them all.

 

SB 10.90.41

 

TEXT 41

TEXT

tisraù koöyaù sahasräëäm

añöäçéti-çatäni ca

äsan yadu-kuläcäryäù

kumäräëäm iti çrutam

 

SYNONYMS

tisraù—three; koöyaù—(times) ten million; sahasräëäm—thousand; añöä-açéti—eighty-eight; çatäni—hundreds; ca—and; äsan—were; yadu-kula—of the Yadu family; äcäryäù—teachers; kumäräëäm—for the children; iti—thus; çrutam—has been heard.

 

TRANSLATION

I have heard from authoritative sources that the Yadu family employed 38,800,000 teachers just to educate their children.

 

SB 10.90.42

TEXT 42

TEXT

saìkhyänaà yädavänäà kaù

kariñyati mahätmanäm

yaträyutänäm ayuta-

lakñeëäste sa ähukaù

 

SYNONYMS

saìkhyänam—the counting; yädavänäm—of the Yädavas; kaù—who; kariñyati—can do; mahä-ätmanäm—of the great personalities; yatra—among whom; ayutänäm—of tens of thousands; ayuta—(times) ten thousand; lakñeëa—with (three) hundred thousand (persons); äste—was present; saù—he; ähukaù—Ugrasena.

 

TRANSLATION

Who can count all the great Yädavas, when among them King Ugrasena alone was accompanied by an entourage of thirty trillion attendants?

 

PURPORT

Çréla Viçvanätha Cakravarté explains why specifically thirty trillion, rather than an indefinite number of tens of trillions, is stated here to be the number of King Ugrasena’s attendants. He does so by citing the interpretational rule of kapiïjalädhikaraëa, the logic of “referring to pigeons”: Somewhere in the Vedas is found the injunction that “one should sacrifice some pigeons.” This plural number should be taken to mean not an indiscriminate number of pigeons, but precisely three of them, since the Vedas never leave any matter vague. The rules of Mémäàsä interpretation take three as the default number when no specific number is given.

[Dark Warrior]

 

SB 10.90

 

TEXT 40

TEXT

yadu-vaàça-prasütänäà

puàsäà vikhyäta-karmaëäm

saìkhyä na çakyate kartum

api varñäyutair nåpa

 

SYNONYMS

yadu-vaàça—in the Yadu dynasty; prasütänäm—of those who were born; puàsäm—men; vikhyäta—famous; karmaëäm—whose deeds; saìkhyä—the counting; na çakyate—cannot; kartum—be done; api—even; varña—in years; ayutaiù—tens of thousands; nåpa—O King (Parékñit).

 

TRANSLATION

The Yadu dynasty produced innumerable great men of famous deeds. Even in tens of thousands of years, O King, one could never count them all.

 

SB 10.90.41

 

TEXT 41

TEXT

tisraù koöyaù sahasräëäm

añöäçéti-çatäni ca

äsan yadu-kuläcäryäù

kumäräëäm iti çrutam

 

SYNONYMS

tisraù—three; koöyaù—(times) ten million; sahasräëäm—thousand; añöä-açéti—eighty-eight; çatäni—hundreds; ca—and; äsan—were; yadu-kula—of the Yadu family; äcäryäù—teachers; kumäräëäm—for the children; iti—thus; çrutam—has been heard.

 

TRANSLATION

I have heard from authoritative sources that the Yadu family employed 38,800,000 teachers just to educate their children.

 

SB 10.90.42

TEXT 42

TEXT

saìkhyänaà yädavänäà kaù

kariñyati mahätmanäm

yaträyutänäm ayuta-

lakñeëäste sa ähukaù

 

SYNONYMS

saìkhyänam—the counting; yädavänäm—of the Yädavas; kaù—who; kariñyati—can do; mahä-ätmanäm—of the great personalities; yatra—among whom; ayutänäm—of tens of thousands; ayuta—(times) ten thousand; lakñeëa—with (three) hundred thousand (persons); äste—was present; saù—he; ähukaù—Ugrasena.

 

TRANSLATION

Who can count all the great Yädavas, when among them King Ugrasena alone was accompanied by an entourage of thirty trillion attendants?

 

PURPORT

Çréla Viçvanätha Cakravarté explains why specifically thirty trillion, rather than an indefinite number of tens of trillions, is stated here to be the number of King Ugrasena’s attendants. He does so by citing the interpretational rule of kapiïjalädhikaraëa, the logic of “referring to pigeons”: Somewhere in the Vedas is found the injunction that “one should sacrifice some pigeons.” This plural number should be taken to mean not an indiscriminate number of pigeons, but precisely three of them, since the Vedas never leave any matter vague. The rules of Mémäàsä interpretation take three as the default number when no specific number is given.

 

And the point of this is...?

 

If a logical explanation is given, then I am willing to take it, AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT COMPROMISE THE HISTORICITY.

 

In fact, I was unaware of Ugrasena issue until (A)theist brought it up.

 

If any logical explanation is impossible, then it means one must reconcile it with Pratyaksha and reasoning. Which means, 1) We do not see such things in our world now, 2) But this is not proof of its complete non-existence elsewhere, 3) Our texts speak of supernatural events, 4) The fact that Sri Hari is capable of anything in His lilas is to be taken into account.

 

Therfore, verdict - It is beyond our thinking, just like Sri Hari Himself.

 

There is a reason why it isn't mythology. Because it is an expression of the Lord's attributes. I see no reason why Sri Hari should teach us His attributes by allegory.

 

I grew up with the thinking that the Puranas were myths. But not anymore. It is strange, but once I accepted them wholeheartedly, I could find out meanings for many of His pastimes.

 

Theist needs to realise that Mahabharata and Ramayana are not your average Bible and Koran. They are the sastras of the Lord. The Lord is not limited by the reasoning of humans.