If we could only see what the material univese really looks like?

[cbrahma]

 

And the point of this is...?

 

If a logical explanation is given, then I am willing to take it, AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT COMPROMISE THE HISTORICITY.

 

In fact, I was unaware of Ugrasena issue until (A)theist brought it up.

 

If any logical explanation is impossible, then it means one must reconcile it with Pratyaksha and reasoning. Which means, 1) We do not see such things in our world now, 2) But this is not proof of its complete non-existence elsewhere, 3) Our texts speak of supernatural events, 4) The fact that Sri Hari is capable of anything in His lilas is to be taken into account.

 

Therfore, verdict - It is beyond our thinking, just like Sri Hari Himself.

 

There is a reason why it isn't mythology. Because it is an expression of the Lord's attributes. I see no reason why Sri Hari should teach us His attributes by allegory.

 

I grew up with the thinking that the Puranas were myths. But not anymore. It is strange, but once I accepted them wholeheartedly, I could find out meanings for many of His pastimes.

 

Theist needs to realise that Mahabharata and Ramayana are not your average Bible and Koran. They are the sastras of the Lord. The Lord is not limited by the reasoning of humans.

In spite of your arrogant abusive style of debate, what all this does mean is that you cannot explain it logically - that in spite of your rationalizations it does not stand up to logical scrutiny. At least be honest and admit that.

But it's not just the 'middle' world where we exists that is incomprehensible. What about all the tortures of the hellish planets? Even Dante had as much imagination. What can it possibly mean for a subtle body to be burned?

[sandrajenkins]

Where the description mentioned? Which chapter? Is it symbolic, or the literal details were given, such as distance from sun?

[Dark Warrior]

 

In spite of your arrogant abusive style of debate, what all this does mean is that you cannot explain it logically - that in spite of your rationalizations it does not stand up to logical scrutiny. At least be honest and admit that.

But it's not just the 'middle' world where we exists that is incomprehensible. What about all the tortures of the hellish planets? Even Dante had as much imagination. What can it possibly mean for a subtle body to be burned?

 

Another Jesus freak. Sheesh.

 

You don't get a 'Subtle Body' in Naraka. It is just another body. GV interpretations are not agreed on by all Vaishnavas.

 

OK, I have had it up to here with these deluded morons. Its amazing how these forums are plagued by Christians, Pseudovaishnavas and Max Muller worshipping Hindus. There are sane persons like Raghu and Kulapavana here who don't answer them at all, and I see why.

 

Nothing is illogical. If you are an atheist, it is illogical. If you are a theist, you are forced to accept that the Lord is omnipotent. Hence, making Ugrasena fit a billion bodyguards in Mathura can be done by Sri Hari for His lila. And these semitheists have no religion that is more rational than Vaishnavism.

 

There is a lot that agrees with Science in Vedanta. The Hare Krishnas interpret somethings wrongly, so they come to the conclusion that Earth is flat and that Moon has vegetation. This is eaily resolved. It is only in case of stuff like Ugrasena's bodyguards that we need to analyse whether our senses are perfect.

 

So I advise all Jesus Freaks and Pseudodevotees to stop harping about this. Arguing with me or abusing me is not going to give you experience of Sri Hari. Instead, read our sastra and learn about His attributes. Then, you will come to the understanding yourself. In the end, I have no connection with you, and myself have realised how attractive Krishna is. You still haven't, even though you are deluded to believe you have, which is pitiful.

[cbrahma]

 

Another Jesus freak. Sheesh.

 

You don't get a 'Subtle Body' in Naraka. It is just another body. GV interpretations are not agreed on by all Vaishnavas.

Don't try to sidetrack my statement with 'ad hominem'. This has nothing to do with Jesus or any other belief system. This has to do with Bhagavatam.

If you can't sustain a logical debate, then don't disturb people's minds with insults and double talk.

[Dark Warrior]

Oh get out of here. I am going to celebrate Rama Navami now. If you have a lick of sense, you would do so. Or wait, I don't think you are a Vaishnava. Fine, then just shut it for now.

[cbrahma]

 

Oh get out of here. I am going to celebrate Rama Navami now. If you have a lick of sense, you would do so. Or wait, I don't think you are a Vaishnava. Fine, then just shut it for now.

Well I have certainly outed you and your self-styled Vaisnavism. 'Shut it for now?' LOL. Very scholarly and saintly indeed. Do you even know what a Vaisnava is? With your abusive style, it makes more sense for you to get out of here, especially considering your well proven inability to support your claims about Bhagavatam.

BTW, if in fact, the souls of the damned have gross bodies, then the yamadutas who torture must also have gross bodies. Why don't others see these gross bodies at the moment of death? Or when does this body exchange take place? Or does anointing one's self with the title of Vaisnava automatically reveal all, even though its inexplicable?

You and so many others on this forum are a wonderful example of how spiritual development has nothing to do with book knowledge, or Vedic text-parsing.

[cbrahma]

In all fairness the Biblical account of Genesis makes no more sense rationally speaking than the Bhagavatam. But many Christians are willing to admit it is allegorical writing. Unfortunately not all Hindus are willing to admit some of the Bhagavatam accounts are also allegorical.

[Kulapavana]

 

What can it possibly mean for a subtle body to be burned?

 

It is not that the subtle body is burned, but that some types of punishment happen on a mental platform alone, just like nightmares. You may think that descriptions of hellish planets in Puranas are just imaginary "scary stories", but that remains to be seen. There are horrible, horrible worlds that exist in this world. Worlds that make concentration camps seem idyllic. These places are known in all the cultures of the world because people have seen them in a trance or in shamanic dreams, and because some of us actually suffered there, and and these places are still there in our deep memories.

[Kulapavana]

 

In all fairness the Biblical account of Genesis makes no more sense rationally speaking than the Bhagavatam. But many Christians are willing to admit it is allegorical writing. Unfortunately not all Hindus are willing to admit some of the Bhagavatam accounts are also allegorical.

 

yes, there are allegories, poetry, and plain old exagerrations, all intertwined with hard facts and philosophy. There are also words that have not been in practical use for thousands of years, and less-than-accurate translations done in a hurry.

 

all these things need to be considered in a pragmatic, not dogmatic fashion, by the sincere seekers and scholars. assuming that Srila Prabhupada's translations and opinions are 100% correct, just because he was a pure devotee, is simply a mere sentiment of his followers.

[theist]

 

Well put, Theist. This is so hilarious a depiction by the literalists that it defies description. I'd rather be lumped with the asuras any day than insult my intelligence and reasoning faculties in such grotesque fashion. Cheers

 

It was a bizarre time. I actually remember one such incident where I was having this discussion with a devotee selling books in Waikiki Hawaii. As we were talking I pointed to the ships and boats that were going out to sea disappearing over the horizen one after another and I asked him if he thought they all fell off the earth or if not why couldn't we see them anymore as they weren't out of our range of vision?

 

No answer of course but it must have been those pesky demigods fooling us asuras. lol.

 

Such a strange mixture of the most sublime knowledge in all existence with some of the most backward ideas around.

[theist]

Wow 30 trillion it is. I have been to Mathura and could ALMOST believe there were that many taxi drivers and ricksaw walas chasing me for business as I left the train station...but NOT LITERALLY.

[theist]

This letter set me free and pointed me to the real path. The three word phrase "take the essence" says it all IMO. We are to be essence seekers and the quintessence is Krishna.

 

We must be careful not to get so hung up in the academic, scientific or philosophical styles of seeking that we forget what/WHO we are really looking for.

 

Some may wish to save this letter to file.

 

 

 

Letter to: Krsnadasa

—

Vrindaban

7 November, 1972

72-11-07

 

 

 

My Dear Krsnadasa,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated October 30, 1972, and I have noted the contents. It appears that you are again constantly disturbed by the same nonsense doubts. These things are not very important, we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. If we are seeking to find out some fault, maya will give us all facility to find any small thing and make it very big, that is maya. But such questions as yours: why there is so-called discrepancy between the views of Bhagavat and modern scientists regarding the moon and other planets, and whether Hitler is good or bad man, these are most insignificant matters, and for anyone who is sincerely convinced that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for him these questions do not arise. Our information comes from Vedas, and if we believe Krishna, that

vedaham samatitani

vartamanani carjuna

bhavisyani ca bhutani

mam tu veda na kascana

[bg. 7.26]

that He knows everything, and "vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham [bg. 15.15],'' that Krishna is non-different from Vedas, then these questions do not arise.

But because you have asked me, I am your spiritual master, I must try to answer to your satisfaction. Yes, sometimes in Vedas such things like the asura's decapitated head chasing after Candraloka, sometimes it is explained allegorically. Just like now we are explaining in 4th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam the story of King Puranjana. Just like the living entity is living within this body, and the body is described there as city with nine gates, the intelligence as the Queen. So there are sometimes allegorical explanations. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct? So we are concerned with Krishna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavat, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam. But this is a fact that in each and every planet there is a predominant deity, as we have got experience in this planet there is a president, so it is not wonderful when the predominating deity fights with another predominating deity of another planet. The modern science takes everything as dead stone. We take it for granted that everything is being manipulated by a person in each and every affair of the cosmology. The modern scientists however could not make any progress in the understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore we do not accept modern science as very perfect. We take Krishna's version:

gam avisya ca bhutani

dharayamy aham ojasa

pusnami causadhih sarvah

somo bhutvah rasatmakah

[bg. 15.13]

"I become the moon,'' and "yac chandramasi yac cagnau,'' (ibid, 12) "I am the splendor of the moon,'' and "jyotisam api taj jyotis,'' [bg. 13.18] "I am the source of light in all luminous objects,'' so no one is able to give us the correct information than Krishna, that you should know.

Regarding Hitler, so Hitler may be good man or bad man, so what does he help to our Krishna Consciousness movement? But it is a fact that much propaganda was made against him, that much I know, and the Britishers are first-class propagandists. And I have heard that his officers did everything without informing him, just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: "Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that.'' But we have nothing to do with Hitler in our Krishna Consciousness. Do not be deviated by such ideas "Jnanam jneyam jnana-gamyam,'' (ibid), Krishna is knowledge, He is the object of knowledge, He is the goal of knowledge, and

you mam evam asammudho

janati purusottamam

sa sarva-vid bhajati mam

[bg. XV, 19]

"Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is to be understood as the knower of everything, and he engages himself therefore in devotional service''—this is the understanding of advanced devotee, so my best advice to you is to agree to come to this understanding.

Your ever well wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[sanatan]

Theist:

 

That seems to be the definitive answer, from the definitive person. I haven't seen a better one so far.

 

I have SP"s hardbound letters and will look up...thanks.

[Ashvatama]

 

One more thing. This is like in the late seventities when Iskconites all were saying the earth was flat. YES THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. I remem challenging them with the example of airplane travel and satelitte orbits and mapping of the planet. their stock answer was "The demigods must be playing tricks on all the demons by making them think the earth is round." LOL I swear that is the truth. Anybody who was around then can confirm this embarassing chapter. Dark Warrior is still living his own version.

 

BTW Dark Warrior do you believe the earth is flat also.

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

 

Man HAS been to the moon, there is way too much evidence to deny that but it is not the heavenly moon described in the Bhagavatam. In 1976 for about two months, Amoga dasa spread the rumour that Prabhupada had said the world was flat, being naïve and young (22 years old) I believed him however, when I was in Bombay Temple in 1978 this was discussed with an Indian devotee who took sannyasa off Prabhupada just before he left the Planet.

 

He explained to me the secular world we perceive with our biological senses is not flat, it is very round and Amoga had misunderstood Prabhupada however, he further explained that if we take the subtle world into account, which houses the majority of material creation, our planet looks vastly different and is connected to a mass of other subtle worlds which makes it, from an over all viewpoint, a continuous plan.

 

This is hard to understand because of our conditioning in the secular world of matter and biological bodies. In other words our material scientists and all of us, virtually know nothing about what is really going on and we will not understand until we become purified and see the truth for ourselves.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

 

Srila Prabupada said many times that the Moon is further away than Sun in the linear sense, using that as his argument that lunar mission was a hoax. That is a fact.

Even with a naked eye one can see (by observing the shadow pattern on the Moon when Sun and Moon are visible together) that this is not the case, let alone using any other calculation method known even to the ancient astronomers.

ISKCON still does not dare to contradict Prabhupada on that issue, even as they attempt to build a Vedic planetarium. Srimad Bhagavatam does not say that Sun is closer to Earth than Moon in the linear sense.

That was SP interpretation. Even the writings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (which give correct distances to Sun and Moon) were not considered authoritative enough to reject Sp's statements in that regard.

As to the flat world or Earth that is another misunderstanding and over-simplification.

Many good devotees left the movement when these issues became public, mainly because of the dogmatic way in which they were presented. There was no room for argument to the contrary. To this very day many devotees do not dare to question such things and repeat the same misconstrued version.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

The inferior energy (mahat-tattva or the three material worlds) is managed and maintained by Maha-Vishnu and His expansions, servants and demigods. The inferior energy (mahat-tattva) can only be moved when the marginal living entities enters a mahat-tattva bodily costume (ethereal and biological) that allows the living entity to move around the rest of the mahat-tattva in that materially constructed costumed outfit (also the mahat-tattva). Such temporary costumes are always in the mode of decay where the ignorant marginal living entity is restricted on different levels karma that is fuelled by selfish desires.

How much of the mahat-tattva (material creation) are we aware of? We are now able to see, due to the help of modern technology, so much more than just the vessels we occupy and its restricted ability to see, hear, smell, feel and touch things around us.

Today we have technological instruments like the Hubble telescope and the electron microscope that unlocks deep secrets of nature. We are also now aware of small bodily vessels like viruses and can even further see deep into the structure of those vessels, seeing atoms, electrons and even smaller compounds of matter due to the Electron telescope. It is quite amazing, but how much are we not seeing?

How much of the mahat-tattva can never be seen by the most powerful technological instruments? For example, the Yamaduttas (An occupied vessel of the mahat-tattva that serves the Lord of death) are all around us doing their work (not much work for the Vishnuduttas in this world at present). Yet no one sees them, and even if they do see 'something unexplainable, science explains it to be the endorphins in the brain and such 'subtle' Beings really do not exist.

The mahat-tattva (material manifestation) is real but temporary phenomena that comprises of what is called the inferior (lifeless) energies of Lord Krishna that can only move due to 'containing' the presents of life in a suitable vessel or bodily form.

The inferior energy is managed and maintained by Maha-Vishnu and His expansions, servants and demigods. The inferior energy (mahat-tattva) can only be moved when the marginal living entities enters a mahat-tattva bodily costume (ethereal and biological) that allows the living entity to move around the rest of the mahat-tattva in that materially constructed costumed outfit (also the mahat-tattva). Such temporary costumes are always in the mode of decay where the ignorant marginal living entity is restricted on different levels karma that is fuelled by selfish desires.

That's how it is for all of us trapped in the mahat-tattva, a place where rebellious souls can attempt to dream up whatever selfish existence they desire and deserve.

Ao it is clear that the mahat-tattva-ethereal and biological costumes (bodies) always belong to the Leasing Agents, Maha-Vishnu and His wife Maya Devi and always remain a part and parcel of the mahat-tattva. Such costumes follow Maha-Vishnu's script and design according to His dreams that simultaneously meets the desires, thoughts, imaginings, dreams and requirements of each of the baddha jivas visiting from outside the mahat-tattva.

No living entities Vishnu-tattva or jiva-tattva come from the mahat-tattva or inferior lifeless energies of the Lord

On entering the mahat-tattva, the living entity (baddha-jiva) is confined to a bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu with His restricted material universe and only in this way is the out garments of inferior matter (bodily vessels) moved within the mahat-tattva.

For the all-living entities, the mahat-tattva is an unnatural phenomenon to be covered with and trapped in. It is important to understand that the bodily vessel one is in belongs to and is part of the mahat-tattva

For us souls who are ensnare in the mahat-tattva’s containments of ethereal or biological bodies find it hard to understand the fact that such bodies are Maha-Vishnu's creation and not ours. Due to such attachment to these vessels we foolishly think is us, we cannot understand that an imperishable universe exists beyond its confines of our bodily vessels that ARE the energy on the mahat-tattva covering our real eternal identity. We presently cannot understand that our real genuine home is where only the eternal imperishable present exists beyond the concept of past and future.

For the eternal inhabitants in the Vaikuntha's, it is therefore possible to see past, present and future within the mahat-tattva all at once, where as, from the perspective within the mahat-tattva, unless one is a great devotee of Krishna like Arjuna, it is impossible to see past, present and future simultaneously. So it is important to understand that the ethereal and biological vehicles are movable ornaments of the mahat-tattva, such vessels are not only in the mahat-tattva, they ARE the mahat-tattva moving due to the presents of the baddha-jiva (the life force) trapped within those vessels within and a part and parcel of the mahat-tattva dream reality of Maha-Vishnu.

The Impersonalists foolishly believe the mahat-tattva is the complete creation and nothing else exists other than their impersonal inactive escape into Nirvana or a dormant aspect of the Brahmajyoti (the total creation or Spiritual Sky); they can neither view nor experience the existence of the vast devotionally active Vaikuntha Planets outside the mahat-tattva, where the majority of Krishna's creation perpetually encircles, without ever decaying, the insignificant temporary decaying mahat-tattva cloud.

The impersonalist also think the mahat-tattva is an illusion however, the mahat-tattva is real, but unlike the vast majority of the creation in the imperishable Vaikunthas, the mahat-tattva, with its movable vessels, are impermanent features that fade out of existence due to the perishable nature of the mahat-tattva.

The mahat-tattva is therefore governed by the ‘unnatural occurrence’ of time divided into past present and future that’s effect is birth, disease, old age, decay, forgetfulness, death and rebirth. Such an impermanent phenomena cannot exist within the other three quarters of the indestructible Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti where the vast Vaikuntha planets and nitya-siddha devotees perpetually thrive on loving devotional service to Krishna in His Personal intimate abode of Goloka-Vrndavana, or serving one of His unlimited Vishnu expansions (each with a different name) in the Vaikuntha planets.

Many shastric quotes 'give the impression' that the mahat-tattva is an illusion however, it only appears that way from the level of the Vaikuntha's where reality is permanent and never fades away.

The past, the future and impermanence or decay, has no meaning in the personal pastimes of Krishna and His Vishnu expansions because everything is always happening now, in the eternal presents of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana.

From the transcendental platform 'outside' the mahat-tattva, a great devotee like Arjuna can see everything (past, present and future) happening in the mahat-tattva or material manifestation all at the same time.

This is important to understand if one is to understand the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada -"Since material elements are present within each other, there are innumerable ways to construe and categorize the material creation of God. Ultimately, however, the significant element is God Himself, who is the basis of all the transformations and permutations of the material cosmos.

<O:P</O:P

The creation of the material world takes place by a progression from subtle to gross elements, as explained in the sāńkhya-yoga system of Lord Kapila. The example may be given that we find the dormant existence of an earthen pot within mud and also the existence of mud within the earthen pot" From Chapter 22: Enumeration of the Elements of Material Creation (mahat-tattva) Canto 11 Śrīmad Bhāgavatam

 

comment -For the all-living entities, the mahat-tattva MATERIAL creation is an unnatural phenomenon where only the baddha jiva aspect of ones marginal identity becomes covered by and trapped in, eventually due to good and bad karma. It is important to understand that the MATERIAL bodily vessel the dreaming baddha jiva sub-conscious portion of the marginal living entity is in or possesses, belongs to and is part of the mahat-tattva dream creation of Maha Vishnu.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Ashvatama]

 

Letter to: Krsnadasa

—

Vrindaban

7 November, 1972

72-11-07

 

My Dear Krsnadasa,

Yes, sometimes in Vedas such things like the asura's decapitated head chasing after Candraloka, sometimes it is explained allegorically.

 

Just like now we are explaining in 4th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam the story of King Puranjana. Just like the living entity is living within this body, and the body is described there as city with nine gates, the intelligence as the Queen.

 

So there are sometimes allegorical explanations. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way.

But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct?

 

So we are concerned with Krishna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavat, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

But this is a fact that in each and every planet there is a predominant deity, as we have got experience in this planet there is a president, so it is not wonderful when the predominating deity fights with another predominating deity of another planet.

 

The modern science takes everything as dead stone. We take it for granted that everything is being manipulated by a person in each and every affair of the cosmology.

 

The modern scientists however could not make any progress in the understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore we do not accept modern science as very perfect. We take Krishna's version:

 

Regarding Hitler, so Hitler may be good man or bad man, so what does he help to our Krishna Consciousness movement?

 

But it is a fact that much propaganda was made against him, that much I know, and the Britishers are first-class propagandists. And I have heard that his officers did everything without informing him, just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: "Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that.''

 

But we have nothing to do with Hitler in our Krishna Consciousness. Do not be deviated by such ideas

 

quote "Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is to be understood as the knower of everything, and he engages himself therefore in devotional service''—this is the understanding of advanced devotee, so my best advice to you is to agree to come to this understanding.

 

Your ever well wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

Very interesting letter

 

However lets make it very clear that Prabhupada new Hitler was a demon just like Churchill and Starlin

 

Srila Prabhupada - "What this rascal, Hitler, can do? But he has no faith in God. He thinks Prabhu Hitler is greater than Lord. Prabhu Hitler. That is the difference between the crows and the swans. The crows think that we have got food in the garbage. And the swans think that we have got food in nice garden, in the clear water. And that is difference even in the birds kingdom".The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

Srila Prabhupada -"There were so many asuras in this world. There were Lenin, there were Stalin, there were Hitler, there were Hiranyakasipu. So many. But they could not survive. It is not possible. They'll be finished". Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.20

Mayapura, September 30, 1974

[theist]

 

Theist:

 

That seems to be the definitive answer, from the definitive person. I haven't seen a better one so far.

 

I have SP"s hardbound letters and will look up...thanks.

 

Your welcome sanatan. I post this letter often hoping it will bring peace to others minds in this regard as it has mine.

 

Sometimes people miss the point and think Srila Prabhupada's main point is that some of these things are allegories. What I see as his main point is that we should not get hung up on such things and become distract from the essence of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Cosmology is certainly not the essence of SB nor are eclipses and such.

 

Hare Krishna

[theist]

 

Very interesting letter

 

However lets make it very clear that Prabhupada new Hitler was a demon just like Churchill and Starlin

 

Srila Prabhupada - "What this rascal, Hitler, can do? But he has no faith in God. He thinks Prabhu Hitler is greater than Lord. Prabhu Hitler. That is the difference between the crows and the swans. The crows think that we have got food in the garbage. And the swans think that we have got food in nice garden, in the clear water. And that is difference even in the birds kingdom".The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

Srila Prabhupada -"There were so many asuras in this world. There were Lenin, there were Stalin, there were Hitler, there were Hiranyakasipu. So many. But they could not survive. It is not possible. They'll be finished". Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.20

Mayapura, September 30, 1974

 

Noted Hitler was a demon. Also noted was that Churchill was not mentioned. He said Lenin and Stalin.

[Ashvatama]

 

Noted Hitler was a demon. Also noted was that Churchill was not mentioned. He said Lenin and Stalin.

 

Yeah I threw that in because of his attempt to never let India self govern, his arrogence and refusal to meet politician among the 'so called saints' Ghandi, ordering the unessessary bombing of Dreshden and plainly just being a arrogent backside to the Australians and Canadians

 

Anyway enough of this mundane nonsense

 

Where was everyone up to regarding If we could only see what the material univese really looks like?

[Ashvatama]

 

Then you may care to enlighten us a little about Ugrasena's 30 TRILLION bodyguards. Where did they live, and what about their wives, children and relatives? Did they moonlight as road-sweepers? Perhaps they all existed in a parallel reality, unseen by the peoples of this world? You seem to not be capable of differentiating between Hindu mythology and real spiritual essence. I differ with Theist on many counts, but his standpoint is far more rational and reasonable than your childish insistence on the historicity of what amounts to nothing more than poetic licence and in some instances pre-scientific hyperbole.

 

Religion has a purpose to serve, and that purpose does not equate with what contemporary scholarship purports to offer; in fact, only those who have relinquished the power of reason can have the cheek to place the imaginatively rich fables of old on a par with modern science.

<!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

 

 

 

 

 

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>

Quote

 

There were mystical powers, huge cities floating in the air at the same time the biological evolutionary process was going on the floor of the planet that the 'celestials Vedic universal travellers' left alone.

 

The idea that Satya-yuga, Treta and the earlier parts of Dvapara-yuga, even though on this planet, existed in a higher realm of material reality distinguished from the mundane evolution of us humans and the lower species of life going happening on the planets surface, sounds correct?

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>

All primitive cultures are coming up from the evolutionary process on this material gross planet, where the soul eventually again receives human form. Because it is inherent in human nature (because ALL living entities are in there baddha-jivas condition of forgetful consciousness while in the material creation of Maha-Vishnu), these human tribes, coming up through the lower biological species or life, develop their own speculative beliefs in a God when they attain the earthly human primitive body. <?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>

On the other hand there is Knowledge (Veda) that comes down to this planet from the demigods from the celestial levels of material existence (the sub-space heavenly planets). Even still a part of the material universes, the Veda has been passed down like this to our planet.

<u1:p></u1:p>The beginning of Kali-yuga is where the human tribes, born from coming up from the lower species and the celestial beings who came down from the heavenly planets who followed the Vedas, crossed paths.

<u1:p></u1:p>

This was only possible due to the Dvapara-yuga being degraded into the beginning of Kali-yuga that allowed the lowly 'planet tribes' to invade and be eventually be influenced by of the 'more celestial beings that followed the Vedas. This is why Sanskrit Is the language of the demigods.

<u1:p></u1:p>

Also Satya-yuga. Tretta-yuga and the most of the Dvapara, even though on this planet, were more celestial than earthly and existed in the sky of this planet on not on the surface.

 

There were mystical powers, huge cities floating in the air at the same time the biological evolutionary process was going on the floor of the planet that the 'celestials Vedic universal travellers' left alone.

This is why no evidence is found of the Satya, Tretta or Dvapara-yuga’s (except towards the end of Dvapara when it has virtually been degraded down to the planets surface).

<u1:p></u1:p>

Then Krishna came right at the very end of Dvapara-yuga, then after the battle at Kurukshetra, the Kali-yuga began and the invasion of the annoying primitive animal like barbaric human tribes, now had evolved enough to plunder the remanets of what was left from the Vedic culture.

 

In the process, some of these barbaric tribes adapted to many practises, from cooking to rituals and prayer that gradually influenced many 'gross worldly' primitive cultures, like tribes in the Indian region and even Judaism.

 

However, the Vedic culture was so degraded by then, the influnce was weak and scattered because most of the saintly sages had already left the planet to escape the on coming storm of Kali-yuga

 

What is degradation to the Vedic celestial interplanetary beings, where their presents on this planet had virtually disappeared by the time the age of Kali-yuga begins, is actually a blessing for the primitive humans that have evolved from the evolution in the jungles on this planet

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[bija]

quote "Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is to be understood as the knower of everything, and he engages himself therefore in devotional service''—this is the understanding of advanced devotee, so my best advice to you is to agree to come to this understanding. theist quoting Srila Prabhupada

thank you so much for posting this advanced expression, that works hey

thanks ashvatama also...lovely

[Dark Warrior]

Some Christians certainly waste no time in comparing the bible to Bhagavatam.

 

I think a clarification of my position is in order. The reason why I chose Vaishnavism as my religion is because there is no other religion that comes close to it in greatness. It is a fact that the nature worshipping rituals of the Pagans, Romans and Egyptian worship of Sun-God is a direct influence of Vedic Culture. Furthermore, Islam, Christianity and Judaism are also influenced by it. Zoroastrianism and Mithraism is definitely a product of Vedic Culture as well.

 

Logically speaking, it follows that the Vedic Literature alone is divinely revealed, and contains the highest truths. This is proven by the admirable way in which we get to know of the Lord's Kalyana Gunas and His accessibility, and also the superior intellect of Vaishnava Acharyas.

 

Hence, we can accept the sastras wholeheartedly. The main reason for my unshakeable belief includes the fact that there is no alternative religion to this, and the fact that God's very doings are revealed here.

 

Coming to our scriptures. I am not suggesting that if the scripture says the Moon is made of green cheese, we should take it literally. I am saying, apply pratyaksha to reinterpret it in such a way that it becomes concordant with what we perceive.

 

Theist rejects its veracity. This isn't the Vedic method of Pratyaksha. Let me explain - In one example, the Vedas say that the sun is drawn by 7 snakes. By applying my method, one can reason that 7 snakes isn't literal and pertains to 7 colors of light. This is better than saying, 'Texts are incorrect', as Theist would have it.

 

Another case of reinterpretation is that texts say that Moongod is responsible for vegetation. ISKCON people think this means there is vegetation on Moon. But a reinterpretation is required - That the Moon God is responsible for vegetation on Earth. This is a scientific fact and hence, acceptable use of Pratyaksha.

 

Similarly, the cosmology of the Bhagavatam has been reinterpreted in an acceptable manner by Sadaputa Dasa in his book, 'Mysteries of the Sacred Universe'. This is acceptable because he considers the cosmology to be correct and to have a deep meaning, requiring reinterpretation. He does not refute it completely.

 

Then, there is some problems with the issue of Ravana having 10 heads, a man having 60000 wives and Ugrasena's bodyguards. These things cannot be reinterpreted. Hence, it is to be assumed that Sri Hari's lila is such that ANYTHING can happen. You cannot deny the omnipotence of God. Since the texts posit this as fact, you have to accept it.

 

It is accepted that supernatural events happened in previous Yugas. Therfore, logically, this is also possible.

 

In any case, which religion can you turn to for information on God? No religion can explain it adequately. A few things you have to accept on faith.

 

Theist, I am not asking you to believe these things. I am asking you, what makes you call yourself a Vaishnava when you clearly don't accept the form of Lord Vishnu Himself?

 

EDIT: By the way, it would be foolish to say that Vedanta is against Science. The Vedic concept of time and space is extremely advanced, and puts forward ideas such as String Theory, which has only recently been suggested by mordern science. The whole Pralaya, Kalpa and other such things are in accordance with science. The cyclical nature of time is alson outlined in the Vedic Scriptures. The Bhagavatam has described how an embryo develops into a baby. Some scholars also point out that ideas of cloning have also been hinted by this text.

 

In Sayana's commentary on the Rig Veda, he accurately mentions the speed of light to be 186,000 miles per second. Therfore, our texts are concordant with science. It is all a matter of reinterpretation.

[AncientMariner]

I believe the Earth is simultaneously flat and round at the same time.

[bija]

I believe the Earth is simultaneously flat and round at the same time. by ancient

From my viewpoint its flat and curved at the edges, ofcourse I live next to the ocean, so I see its curve!

 

What a paradox though....I know my eyeballs are round...even though I cant see the back of them.

[AncientMariner]

 

Some Christians certainly waste no time in comparing the bible to Bhagavatam.

 

I think a clarification of my position is in order. The reason why I chose Vaishnavism as my religion is because there is no other religion that comes close to it in greatness. It is a fact that the nature worshipping rituals of the Pagans, Romans and Egyptian worship of Sun-God is a direct influence of Vedic Culture. Furthermore, Islam, Christianity and Judaism are also influenced by it. Zoroastrianism and Mithraism is definitely a product of Vedic Culture as well.

 

Logically speaking, it follows that the Vedic Literature alone is divinely revealed, and contains the highest truths. This is proven by the admirable way in which we get to know of the Lord's Kalyana Gunas and His accessibility, and also the superior intellect of Vaishnava Acharyas.

 

Hence, we can accept the sastras wholeheartedly. The main reason for my unshakeable belief includes the fact that there is no alternative religion to this, and the fact that God's very doings are revealed here.

 

Coming to our scriptures. I am not suggesting that if the scripture says the Moon is made of green cheese, we should take it literally. I am saying, apply pratyaksha to reinterpret it in such a way that it becomes concordant with what we perceive.

 

Theist rejects its veracity. This isn't the Vedic method of Pratyaksha. Let me explain - In one example, the Vedas say that the sun is drawn by 7 snakes. By applying my method, one can reason that 7 snakes isn't literal and pertains to 7 colors of light. This is better than saying, 'Texts are incorrect', as Theist would have it.

 

Another case of reinterpretation is that texts say that Moongod is responsible for vegetation. ISKCON people think this means there is vegetation on Moon. But a reinterpretation is required - That the Moon God is responsible for vegetation on Earth. This is a scientific fact and hence, acceptable use of Pratyaksha.

 

Similarly, the cosmology of the Bhagavatam has been reinterpreted in an acceptable manner by Sadaputa Dasa in his book, 'Mysteries of the Sacred Universe'. This is acceptable because he considers the cosmology to be correct and to have a deep meaning, requiring reinterpretation. He does not refute it completely.

 

Then, there is some problems with the issue of Ravana having 10 heads, a man having 60000 wives and Ugrasena's bodyguards. These things cannot be reinterpreted. Hence, it is to be assumed that Sri Hari's lila is such that ANYTHING can happen. You cannot deny the omnipotence of God. Since the texts posit this as fact, you have to accept it.

 

It is accepted that supernatural events happened in previous Yugas. Therfore, logically, this is also possible.

 

In any case, which religion can you turn to for information on God? No religion can explain it adequately. A few things you have to accept on faith.

 

Theist, I am not asking you to believe these things. I am asking you, what makes you call yourself a Vaishnava when you clearly don't accept the form of Lord Vishnu Himself?

 

EDIT: By the way, it would be foolish to say that Vedanta is against Science. The Vedic concept of time and space is extremely advanced, and puts forward ideas such as String Theory, which has only recently been suggested by mordern science. The whole Pralaya, Kalpa and other such things are in accordance with science. The cyclical nature of time is alson outlined in the Vedic Scriptures. The Bhagavatam has described how an embryo develops into a baby. Some scholars also point out that ideas of cloning have also been hinted by this text.

 

In Sayana's commentary on the Rig Veda, he accurately mentions the speed of light to be 186,000 miles per second. Therfore, our texts are concordant with science. It is all a matter of reinterpretation.

 

 

No offense but if you chose Vaisnavism as a religion aren't you essentially admitting you are a sectarian religionist and therefore you are really not a Vaisnava then because it is my understanding Vaisnavas are non-sectarian?

[theist]

 

Theist rejects its veracity. This isn't the Vedic method of Pratyaksha. Let me explain - In one example, the Vedas say that the sun is drawn by 7 snakes. By applying my method, one can reason that 7 snakes isn't literal and pertains to 7 colors of light. This is better than saying, 'Texts are incorrect', as Theist would have it.

 

Dark Warrior. Speak for yourself and do not speak for me.

 

 

Theist, I am not asking you to believe these things. I am asking you, what makes you call yourself a Vaishnava when you clearly don't accept the form of Lord Vishnu Himself?

 

Now here is a good example of what a brain dead character you are. I have never called myself a Vaisnava and I accept the form of Krsna as eternal and the source of the brahmajyoti and everything else.

 

I must say there is something in your personality that brings out the worst in me. Presently I would like to wring your scrawny little neck for that last comment.

 

As was just pointed out you are so clueless as to consider Vaisnavism as a religion that you can join. You poor little sectarian soul you.