If we could only see what the material univese really looks like?

[cbrahma]

 

Of course one can quote an authority on a particular belief system to refute it or show how it compares and contrasts with another system.

 

 

If you are not still an aspiring Vaisnava then the above statement is confusing. One might write something like, "According to the Vaisnava creed, Vaisnavism is a belief that just requires the faith of the practitioner. Therefore they do not see the need for an official credential." But the way you have written it gives one the impression that you continue to identify with Vaisnavism to some extent or are in some kind of state of religio-spiritual confusion.

What difference does my religious affiliation make to debating philosophical convictions based on certain texts?

[Beggar]

 

What difference does my religious affiliation make to debating philosophical convictions based on certain texts?

 

It is intellectually dishonest (or confused) to represent oneself as a nay-sayer in one context and and true believer in another. It's not all about winning and losing debates but rather it should be about the search for truth.

[Sarva gattah]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

Letter to: Krsnadasa

—

Vrindaban

7 November, 1972

72-11-07

My Dear Krsnadasa,

Yes, sometimes in Vedas such things like the asura's decapitated head chasing after Candraloka, sometimes it is explained allegorically.

Just like now we are explaining in 4th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam the story of King Puranjana. Just like the living entity is living within this body, and the body is described there as city with nine gates, the intelligence as the Queen.

So there are sometimes allegorical explanations. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way.

But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct?

So we are concerned with Krishna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavat, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

But this is a fact that in each and every planet there is a predominant deity, as we have got experience in this planet there is a president, so it is not wonderful when the predominating deity fights with another predominating deity of another planet.

The modern science takes everything as dead stone. We take it for granted that everything is being manipulated by a person in each and every affair of the cosmology.

The modern scientists however could not make any progress in the understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore we do not accept modern science as very perfect. We take Krishna's version:

quote "Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is to be understood as the knower of everything, and he engages himself therefore in devotional service''—this is the understanding of advanced devotee, so my best advice to you is to agree to come to this understanding.

Your ever well wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[theist]

Krsna's version would invariably be what is true. The real point is to bot bother over allegories OR the modern scientific version. The point is transcendental knowledge.

 

Material planetary systems do not qualify as tanscendental.

[bija]

Material planetary systems do not qualify as tanscendental. by theist

I have met several so-called spiritualists lately. One of them expressed the most spiritual book they had read lately was 'how to get what you want' or something like that. Another person made some fun blank cheques with a Bank Name of 'I Am that I Am'. The idea was you can write a cheque for whatever amount you want, realizing that you are I Am and you will get it!

 

These people are very pious people and kindly and good. Maybe they would love to hear about the higher planetary systems and the means to attain the opulences there.

 

This may be a good thing, after sometime in that opulence, the inner yearning of the soul, the longing may awaken again. Then the search for Sri Krsna may proceed.

 

Or is the sadhaka, aspiring for transcendental service, in a worse plight?

 

Or the pure devotee feeling intense separation?

 

Who are you really Krsna? What is this love? What are you, really?

 

 

The modern scientists however could not make any progress in the understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore we do not accept modern science as very perfect. We take Krishna's version:

 

quote "Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is to be understood as the knower of everything, and he engages himself therefore in devotional service''—this is the understanding of advanced devotee, so my best advice to you is to agree to come to this understanding. Srila Prabhupada

[Dark Warrior]

 

Krsna's version would invariably be what is true. The real point is to bot bother over allegories OR the modern scientific version. The point is transcendental knowledge.

 

Material planetary systems do not qualify as tanscendental.

 

That's good. Your belief. But don't try to pass it off as logical beliefs of ALL Krishna Devotees. As far as I know, my opinions are in full agreement with great acharyas like Sri Ramanujacharya, Sri Madhvacharya and the other gurus in the respective parampara. I do not formulate my own beliefs.

 

I am not trying to convert theist or cBrahma. That job was undertaken by stalwart Vaishnavas like Srila Prabhupada, Sri PB Annangrachariar Swami and many others, who performed it admirably. I am only asking people like Theist and cBrahma to understand that their opinions are theirs only, and not authenticated by any acharya.

 

Kulapavana made a request for people to desist, and so I shall.

[bija]

Who are you Krsna? Who are you really? (vidyapati)

bija: who are you?

God: I am that I am!

 

bija: hmmm...I still dont understand?

let me put it this way...what is love?

 

God: The Supreme Personality of Godhead!

 

bija: hmmm...let me think on that God!

God: sure bija, we have eternity

(sometime later)

bija: ok God....who are you?

 

God: Original

[Sarva gattah]

 

like I said on another thread, we need to honestly present what we do know, and what we do not know. Claiming that Bhagavatam says Sun is closer to Earth than Moon is false, that is not what Bhagavatam says. We should be able to admit to our mistakes as well - that is both knowledge and humility.

 

Our senses may not be perfect, but you just can not dismiss obvious contradictions in your presentation using that excuse. We have this intelligence, mind and senses so that we can distinguish between truth and falsehood.

 

Interesting points below however it makes one wonder why they cannot understand how we all originate from Vaikuntha, anyway way the following is an interesting read regardless.

 

TRIPURARI swami -

 

Sridhara Maharaja suggested the following way of relating to the Bhagavatam's description of the sun being closer to the earth than the moon.

 

He said, "Politically speaking, Russia is closer to India than America or Pakistan. Its nearness is calculated in terms of the friendly relations, or influence. So I like to say we may take in that way.

 

Not in physical distance. Sun's influence over the earth is first, next that of moon, next that of Mars. In this way perhaps we may proceed. I got some hint in that direction. If we are challenged we may take this course. But my ultimate basis of argument is that it is subjective.

 

It is like a hypnotizer ... what the Lord showed Sukadeva at that time, it is described like that. It is in his hands, subjective control. Not that the objective will control us to see a thing.

 

But the subject as he likes can make a show like a hypnotizer. That is my view. So everything can be explained. The higher seer is controlling our capacity to see anything. What one man sees another man won't see. Subjective control.

 

The Visvarupa darsana in Bhagavad-gita, what is it? Krsna says, 'Arjuna, you see this. I am so and so.' And Arjuna is seeing that. It's not that the object is controlling the experience of the subject. But the super-subject (Krsna) is controlling the experience of the lower subject (the jiva soul). That is my understanding.

 

Everything is controlled by the higher. The root (consciousness) is above, not the fossil (matter). 'The fossil (matter) will control my vision,' no such mean law I am ready to accept."

 

I also discussed this issue in a previous Sanga called The Relativity of Scripture.

 

Therein I wrote:

 

"Many subjects are discussed throughout the Bhagavatam that shed light on its principal topic (satyam param) either directly or indirectly (anvayad itaratah). Topics such as psychology and astronomy, while discussed in the Bhagavatam, are not the primary focus of the text.

 

These topics are introduced for reasons other than making definitive statements on the topics themselves. The Bhagavata discusses the structure of the universe for the purpose of stressing that the material manifestation is a fathomless, endless transformation of the gunas (maya-guna-vibhuteh) and thus glorious as the sakti of God appearing as his mystical, venerable Visvarupa.

 

Sukadeva Goswami does not make the claim that his description of the universe is definitive. Indeed, he says the opposite: kastham manasa vacasa vadhigantum alam vibudhayusapi purusa, "No one can possibly explain or perfectly conceive of the nature of the material universe even in a lifetime of Lord Brahma." (SB. 5.16.4)

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Krsna-samhita explains the relativity of scripture, the difference between scriptural topics that are subject to human logic and those that are not. Psychology and astronomy fall into the former category.

 

Krsna dasa once asked Prabhupada why there is a discrepancy between the views of Bhagavatam and modern scientists regarding the moon and other planets. To this Srila Prabhupada replied, "These things are not very important, we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations [in the Bhagavatam]. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct?

 

So we are concerned with Krsna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam." (Letter 72-11-07)

 

Here Prabhupada explains that literally accepting the explanation of the material universe found in the Bhagavatam is not essential to one's spiritual life. Indeed, the entire explanation is nonessential.

[bija]

Here Prabhupada explains that literally accepting the explanation of the material universe found in the Bhagavatam is not essential to one's spiritual life. Indeed, the entire explanation is nonessential. tripurari quoted by sarva

This sounds like what Theist has been trying to say all along....

 

Maybe like Srila Sridhara Maharaja is saying, the super-subjective is revealing to each of us what he chooses, out of his divine wisdom. I know when I try to share realizations to others sometimes, they dont understand, and often become confused. And Krsna quickly prompts me 'stop your violence...this is sacred '. Ofcourse Krsna is not so foolish to force the buds opening.

 

Out of respect for others hearts, we should try to our best to be gentle, and leave it up to Krsna to say who is his follower and who is not. And deeply honor the way the super-subjective chooses to open each of our hearts. Such is his wonderful kindness. That would be best for us (for our spiritual development and well-being).

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sadaputa Prabhu gave a large screen presentation of his new CD “Mysteries of the Sacred Universe” at the Radha Syamasundar Mandhir in Alachua, Florida on March 1 2006. The room was packed with an enthralled audience as he demonstrated the four secret meanings of the 5th canto and where the Srimad Bhagavatam parallels and goes beyond modern science. Using one model the Bhagavatam explains the universe, the earths seasons, a map of India through Siberia and the higher realms of the demigods.

The new CD takes you on a virtual tour of the universe, flying over Bhumandala from the sun to the Loka -Aloka mountains and beyond to the dark uninhabited lands. You can tour the city of Brahma and fly over the edge of Mt. Meru to Jambudwipa. Sadaputa showed a sampling of the 260 pictures, animations and text from the CD.

Questions and answers lasted late into the night as he discussed time and inter-dimensional travel. Mysteries of the Sacred Universe CD is available by writing to The Bhaktivedanta Institute, P.O. Box 1920, Alachua, FL. 32615, USA

One might be sceptical how much interest might be generated by presentations on the ancient Vedic world view amongst educated audiences in today’s fast pace hi-tech lifestyle. There is a great deal of responsiveness out there, according to the experience of His Holiness Romapada Swami. Romapada Swami, a longtime teacher of Krishna consciousness in the northeastern region of the United States has had remarkable success using Sadaputa Prabhu’s CD “Mysteries of the Sacred Universe” to introduce the world view of Srimad-Bhagavatam to both academic and professional audiences.

Romapada Swami started scheduling programs with the help of university bhakti-yoga clubs and Indian congregational members, but persons impressed with his presentation have arranged that he speak to employees within such places of business as Lucent Technology and Microsoft. Audiences ranging from 25 to 80 have attended these presentations.

Romapada Swami presents an overview of the topics covered in the CD by selecting chosen segments from the menu of the CD, and then plays segments of the forty-eight minute “Mysteries” video to illustrate the concepts, pausing after key segments are shown and discussing them to make sure the audience understands each topic.

The Srimad-Bhagavatam’s description of the universe is very different from modern science’s description. Although the Bhagavatam’s “Earth” (disk-shaped Bhu-mandala) may look unrealistic, careful study shows that the Bhagavatam uses Bhu-mandala to represent at least four reasonable and consistent models: (1) a polar-projection map of the Earth globe, (2) a map of the solar system, (3) a topographical map of south-central Asia, and (4) a map of the celestial realm of the demigods. These are described in the video one after another.

As an introduction to Romapada Swami’s discussion of the Mysteries CD, particularly at the hi-tech venues, he presents three reasons why it is worthwhile for the audience to thoughtfully and attentively consider this subject.

1) The subject matter is interesting. One reason that makes it VERY interesting is that the Bhagavata understanding of the solar system, which encodes planetary distance information and sophisticated understandings of the structure and the relative motion of various planets within the universe, presents understandings with GREAT empiric accuracy, compared to modern science, close to a 1-to-1 match, without the use of technology!! In contrast, the early Greek and medieval calculations were very far from matching our modern scientific calculations. “How was this accuracy and sophistication reached?!” [Answer: “Descending knowledge!”]

2) Based on the strength of the Jyotisa parts of the Vedas being so profoundly accurate, credibility is added to the portions of the Srimad-Bhagavtam and other Vedic texts that are not empirically verifiable.

3) Since we are part of the universe, as Sadaputa says in the beginning of the video, “The way we view the universe has a great impact on how we view ourselves.” “What is life, what is this place in which we live?” Thoughtful persons ask these questions, and in any case we all are carrying some conception of the universe, and we in turn live our life resonating with or accommodating that conception.

From the historical point of view, when India was colonized by the British years ago, some Westerners, motivated by a desire to decrease the faith of the indigenous people in their own scriptures and a hope to convert them to Christianity, sought to discredit the statements of India’s scriptures.

The cosmological descriptions of the Puranas with their oceans of milk and yoghurt and mountains many miles high, appeared to be a weak point that could be used to dismantle faith in the entire world view and so they were ruthlessly ridiculed. One can argue that Srila Prabhupada’s insistence that the monumental Mayapur temple contain a Vedic model of the universe or planetarium is meant to reverse this process and use astronomy to establish faith in the authority of the Vedas.

Srila Prabhupada said in a letter to Svarupa Damodara, dated April, 27,1976, “So now you all Ph.D.’s must carefully study the details of the 5th Canto and make a working model of the universe.

If we can explain the passing seasons, eclipses, phases of the moon, passing of day and night, etc. then it will be very powerful propaganda.” If a person develops faith in the authority of the Vedas by seeing they contain truth in different departments of knowledge like astronomy, then it is easier for such a person to understand the philosophy and practice of Krishna consciousness, which are described in the Vedas.

After his presentation, at his book table, Romapada Swami has had great success in selling Sadaputa Prabhu’s Mysteries of the Sacred Universe books and Interactive CDs. With the exception of distributors like Bhaktivedanta Books Limited and Bhaktivedanta Library Services, Romapada Swami has purchased and sold more of these books than any other individual devotee customer. Since the book and CD came out in November of 2000, Maharaja has purchased for resale 103 books and 176 CDs.

Other devotees also find these materials useful. Long-time GBC for Southern California, Badrinarayana Prabhu, who has bought 23 CDs himself, gives them as presents to the teenage children of his life members. Of the CD, he said, “It is excellent. By the way, people get a real kick out of the animated movie of the flow of the Ganges (down Mount Sumeru to Bharata-varsa). You feel like you need to buckle up for the ride. Please offer our appreciation to Sadaputa Prabhu for this important work, skilfully presented.”

If you think the subject of astronomy is not of interest, the Mysteries of the Sacred Universe deals with much more. Evidence of very similar ideas in geographically separated cultures is described, as well as evidence that ancient units of measurement including the Bhagavatam’s yojana were based on the size of a degree of latitude, and also correlations between the date of the start of Kali-yuga and the Biblical flood of Noah’s ark, etc

 

 

 

[gauragopala dasa]

 

 

 

 

 

When The Universe Was Dark

Many of us appreciate the beauty of nature, we are interested to hear of the wonderful and amazing creatures living in the tropical rain-forests, in the depths of the ocean and even in outer-space. We feel if these natural places are spoiled or destroyed as a by-product of industry it will be a great loss for us and future generations. (Article by Madhudvisa dasa)

 

The Big Bang Theory (BBT)

We have all heard it at school in the science class... In the begining there was nothing... and from that nothing came a big bang, caused by no one coming from nowhere... It created all the mass of the universe completely by chance [according to Einstein's Theory]... (Article by Madhudvisa dasa)

 

The Intelligent Designer

Recently there has been a debate over whether God is the creator of the universe or that the creation is formed by combination of chemicals, a chance occurrence if you will. (Article by Gadadhara dasa)

[Dark Warrior]

 

Here Prabhupada explains that literally accepting the explanation of the material universe found in the Bhagavatam is not essential to one's spiritual life. Indeed, the entire explanation is nonessential. tripurari quoted by sarva

 

This sounds like what Theist has been trying to say all along....

 

Nobody takes the cosmology literally, because it isn't literal. Bhu Mandala, for instance, is the orbital plane.

 

Theist has taken this point and extended it to the portions of the Bhagavatam describing the lilas of the Lord, and to the Mahabharata War itself. Now, I am not a Hare Krishna and hence, have no obligation to take Srila Prabhupada's words seriously, but tell me, did he say that Rasa Lila and the War should be taken as allegorical?

 

The Bhagavatam does contain some allegories. But what they are, have been outlined by the Bhagavatam itself. Now, one may claim that it is unscientific to assume Ugrasena could fit a billion bodyguards in Mathura, but are you not aware that Sriman Narayana is not bound by our limited perception? the idea that the omnipotent Lord is NOT capable of doing this is illogical.

 

Understand my position. By all means, accept the cosmology as allegorical. But consider two points, 1) The cosmology should not be thought to be the product of a primitive mind. It isn't incorrect, but rather, has some deeper meaning, 2) This allegory theory CANNOT be extended to the Lilas of the Lord. No acharya endorses it.

[bija]

Now, I am not a Hare Krishna and hence, have no obligation to take Srila Prabhupada's words seriously, but tell me, did he say that Rasa Lila and the War should be taken as allegorical? by dark warrior

He very clearly says that Kurukshetra is not allegory like commentators claim. This is stated in his Gita As It Is.

 

In regards to rasa-lila I have no idea and no comment. I could read the acaryas books thousands of times on rasa, but until the Lord out of his unlimited kindness chooses to reveal rasa-lila's real encounter to my soul, I would have no idea. I am presently feeling in my heart though, when it awakens, it will be very different than my minds grasping. All I do know, is that the opening of the lotus of the heart and Godhead, is an extremely beautiful encounter and very sacred.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Now, I am not a Hare Krishna and hence, have no obligation to take Srila Prabhupada's words seriously, but tell me, did he say that Rasa Lila and the War should be taken as allegorical? by dark warrior

 

He very clearly says that Kurukshetra is not allegory like commentators claim. This is stated in his Gita As It Is.

 

Thank you.

 

 

In regards to rasa-lila I have no idea and no comment. I could read the acaryas books thousands of times, but until the Lord out of his unlimited kindness chooses to reveal rasa-lila's real encounter to my soul, I would have no idea. I am presently feeling in my heart though, when it awakens, it will be very different than my minds grasping. All I do know is that the opening of the lotus of the heart and Godhead is extremely beautiful encounter.

 

Since Krishna's avatar is historical for all sincere Vaishnavas, the Rasa Lila, Him lifting Govardhana, dancing on Kalinga, etc....all these events are also historical. I am not assailing Theist for his beliefs, but rather, he seems to think that his views are the most logical and hence, should be taken up by everybody.

[bija]

Yes accepting the historical appearance and pastimes of Sri Krsna is exalted. I am feeling within that the words from Bhagavatam are painting a wonderful picture.

 

As you say what is allegory in Bhagavatam is expressed by Bhagavatam itself. My question then is, 'what do the other contents really mean?' This is the sacred!

 

Here is my viewpoint on the Bhagavatam and sacred scripture. I received this realization of Pure Spiritual Consciousness Form one night in deep prayer. A few weeks later a good friend visited me and was off to India for a painting seminar. I asked her what she was going to paint, it was the exact same description I had received that night in prayer. Below is the painting now completed. I wrote these simple words in gratitude for the Lord's kindness.

 

Dark Warrior may your eyes melt in love upon seeing this picture. It makes a great screen saver, to gaze upon late at night:pray:

 

 

Dedicated to our Beloved Master

A Prayer and Reflection

(a dialogue of the devotee and Sri Krishna)

Sri Krishna: 'My form is not what your material mind has previously thought, my dear devotee! I wish you to see me now!'

Devotee: 'I guessed so Lord! I wish to see you as you truly are now! I have not conceived until this moment! Are you Pure Spiritual Consciousness Form?'

Sri Krishna: 'Yes my dear one I am! My eyes are 'like' Lotus Petals! My hair is 'like' a dark monsoon cloud! My skin is 'like' shining sapphires!

My abode and myself are one and the same substance!'

Sri Krishna: 'Please my dear devotee understand this: Srila Vyasadeva and all other great devotees like Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura have seen the beauty of my Form! They have used words to describe Me. I am 'like' this! I am 'like' this'! Words are like a 'picture'.'

Sri Krishna: 'See me now dear one! Through the words of the saints. Forever in your heart, and in all that you see! Then you will meet me, of this have no doubt!'

Devotee: 'Oh dear Sri Krishna, such beauty my mind has not conceived before! 'Words' fail to describe what I have seen now! I accept you as my Lord, do with me as you please.'

[Dark Warrior]

The Lord is extremely lovable. Even in the Gita, He cannot resist trumpeting about His beauty and loveliness. And yet, He does it so innocently, like a child proudly talking about his acheivements.

 

For instance, see the verse in Gita where He tells Arjuna, 'See how wonderful my mystic power is!!' Only devotees can realise the innocent pride in these words.

 

In one of his discourses, Sri Velukkudi Swami said, 'If a Jiva possesses ego, he becomes an undesirable character. But for Sriman Narayana, His ego is His greatest attribute'.

[bija]

In one of his discourses, Sri Velukkudi Swami said, 'If a Jiva possesses ego, he becomes an undesirable character. But for Sriman Narayana, His ego is His greatest attribute'. by darkwarrior

Yes, please forgive my foolishness. Let us dovetail our ego in glorification of that Supreme Child.

[theist]

 

Theist has taken this point and extended it to the portions of the Bhagavatam describing the lilas of the Lord, and to the Mahabharata War itself. Now, I am not a Hare Krishna and hence, have no obligation to take Srila Prabhupada's words seriously, but tell me, did he say that Rasa Lila and the War should be taken as allegorical?

Stop putting words in my mouth. I accept a literal rasa-lila. I define literal differently than you.

 

I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself.

[bija]

<embed src="

" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425">

[Sarva gattah]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6444497757131755298

 

 

 

 

 

[bija]

Jaya....thx

 

Sri Navadwipa Dham Mahatmya - click here

 

Sri Navadwipa Bhava Taranga - click here

[Dark Warrior]

 

Stop putting words in my mouth. I accept a literal rasa-lila. I define literal differently than you.

 

I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself.

 

Really? I hadn't noticed that you were capable of even understanding the basics of true Vaishnavism.

 

'Literal' does not cut it. I mean a historical Rasa Lila that took place 5000 years ago, not your weird beliefs that the lilas are restricted to literature alone. You define literal differently than all Vaishnavas, so therfore your opinions do not count for a general belief.

 

Certainly, people who don't to Vaishnavism are welcome to call it a myth. I couldn't care less. But this is a different matter, when self styled 'pure devotees' try to say that this event is literal and has only 'transcendental value', but isn't historical.

 

The whole reason why Hari Katha is called sanctifying is because it is regarded as the history of the Lord's descent. If our acharyas had wanted us to take it 'literally' and forget its historicity, then why didn't they recommend Siva Purana? After all, that Purana has certainly inspired Shaivites. When the Purana says that Shiva is greater than Vishnu, Shaivites have had 'transcendental experiences'. But we know it isn't true, don't we?

 

Theist, owing to your christian background, you are unable to understand what Vaishnavism really is. And you also do not understand what is the significance of our literature, and what our acharyas intended. You have a little understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and even that tradition you don't follow properly. Your knowledge of Vaishnavism in general is zero.

 

Some people profess to be believers. But the fact is, they do not accept Scripture AS IT IS. They are unable to understand it, so they make their own watered-down interpretations.

 

For instance, take the instance where Theist argues so vehemently about Ugrasena's bodyguards. He cannot accept its historicity because it appears illogical to him. So, he chooses to take what he wants, ie, take the essence, the spirituality, and treat it as quaint mythology. But he forgets that:

 

-Bhagavatam states this as history. So, either he is saying that Bhagavatam is lying, or that he is a disguised atheist who milks what he wants out of scripture.

 

-He fails to take into account that the Lord is omnipotent and cannot be limited by the beliefs of an individual.

 

This is against all Vedic Laws. If you accept Valmiki or Vyasa as authority, you take their word.

 

When Krishna said that the Bhagavatam is a literary incarnation, He meant that He will dwell in its pages to sanctify it. It doesn't mean that all His lilas are to be taken as valid only within the literature. Just like the Gayathri Mantra is an avatar of Narayana, the Bhagavatam is also an avatar of Narayana. But it does not mean every 'experience' is confined to the pages itself.

 

I repeat, there is no acharya who endorses your views. Therfore, this is your opinion alone. You are welcome to it, but do not try to pass it off as the most logical conclusion. Even Lord Krishna warns,

 

yaH shaastravidhim utsR^ijya vartate kaamakaarataH |

na sa siddhim avaapnoti na sukha.m na paraa.m gatim || Gita 16.23 ||

 

This is Krishna's own condemnation of those who simply take what they want from sastra and ignore the rest.

[theist]

 

Theist, owing to your christian background,

 

I grew up an atheist not a Christian.

 

Why are you so fixated on me? I will have to put you on my ignore list and hope you just go away someday.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

I grew up an atheist not a Christian.

 

Why are you so fixated on me? I will have to put you on my ignore list and hope you just go away someday.

 

 

I guess you must be referring to DW. He seems to be a mentally unsound fellow, with pretty bizarre behavioural tendencies. His characteristically puerile, nescient, vituperative cant would suffice to engender ill-health in any normal person. For your own sake, my friend, try to emulate my actions in that respect and promptly proceed to place that buffoon on your ignore list.

 

Cheers

[realist]

 

I suspect that Vedas present the Universe as it seen by the yogis, with various layers of reality (worlds or "dimensions") overlapping one another. In some places it is even mentioned that in the past yogis were able to walk to the moon in their current bodies, on the mystical trail known as Sushumna. In other places it is said that all we can see in the sky is just our own earthly realm - we do not see the higher or lower worlds at all, just their shadows cast into our reality. Like a reflection of the moon in a lake, only 3 dimensional.

 

Interesting reading in understanding Krsna's material creation