Bhakti marga and the Vedas

[shvu]

 

Commenting on your smear campaign can hardly be called arguing. I'm not promoting myself as a Vaisnava. I'm a Christian, therefore I can't be a Vaisnava, remember?

 

Yet another argument.

 

Cheers

[Beggar]

 

I'm not promoting myself as a Vaisnava. I'm a Christian, therefore I can't be a Vaisnava, remember?

This is what I alleged six weeks ago and was met with a smokescreen! You may say that his reply above is sarcastic but where there is smoke there is fire.

 

 

I'm a Christian

And a Christian on a campaign against the Vaisnava concept of guru.

[cbrahma]

 

Yet another argument.

 

Cheers

semantics - as would be your comment. Nevertheless off topic.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

I'm not promoting myself as a Vaisnava. I'm a Christian, therefore I can't be a Vaisnava, remember?

 

 

This is what I alleged six weeks ago and was met with a smokescreen! You may say that his reply above is sarcastic but where there is smoke there is fire.

 

 

And a Christian on a campaign against the Vaisnava concept of guru.

 

What could be more obvious?

[cbrahma]

 

What could be more obvious?

Only your anti-Christian bias makes that obvious.

BTW there are many things that are more obvious - like straigthforward statements in context that are not the result of speculation and self-serving inference as in your case. Still off topic.

 

Another point bad-mouth Beggar thinks my statement that Christianity is not Vaisnava is about him however in this very thread .

 

Christianity is not Vaishnavism and not Vedic as anyone with any functioning brain cells can tell you. One need not be brahmana to figure that one out. But that is all besides the point

[raghu]

cbrahma you are still arguing. You told us that dry argument is bad, remember?

 

Would it help if I called you a great fool and told you to concentrate instead on your devotional service?

[cbrahma]

 

cbrahma you are still arguing. You told us that dry argument is bad, remember?

 

Would it help if I called you a great fool and told you to concentrate instead on your devotional service?

My thread wasn't about arguing as indeed you are by trying to get the last word. That's a straw dog. where do you get off giving me advice in any case? Supporting all the arrogant neo-brahmincal text parsing.

[raghu]

 

My thread wasn't about arguing as indeed you are by trying to get the last word. That's a straw dog. where do you get off giving me advice in any case? Supporting all the arrogant neo-brahmincal text parsing.

 

So now you are arguing that your thread was not about arguing, when indeed you started the thread on the subject of arguing and argument. Can't you just take your own advice and give up all this dry argument?

 

arguably yours,

 

Raghu

[cbrahma]

 

So now you are arguing that your thread was not about arguing, when indeed you started the thread on the subject of arguing and argument. Can't you just take your own advice and give up all this dry argument?

 

arguably yours,

 

Raghu

Your argument that my response is an argument and therefore a contradiction to my initial post, is invalid , because in fact my thread, and please make a note of this because this is the last time I repeat it, was not about argument. It was about dry pseudo-brahmincal textual wrangling, not argument in general.

But then since you are determined to have the last word in your argumentative manner, but still agree with your misunderstanding that this thread is against argument in general, then you should embrace what you are promoting, otherwise you are contradicting yourself. That is you are arguing with yourself and losing.

[cbrahma]

 

Fallacy of composition

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

<!-- start content -->A fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part). For example: "This fragment of metal cannot be broken with a hammer, therefore the machine of which it is a part cannot be broken with a hammer." This is clearly fallacious, because many machines can be broken into their constituent parts without any of those parts being breakable.

This fallacy is often confused with the fallacy of hasty generalization, in which an unwarranted inference is made from a statement about a sample to a statement about the population from which it is drawn.

The fallacy of composition is the converse of the fallacy of division.

Example

 

 

1. Atoms are not visible to the naked eye
   
2. Humans are made up of atoms
   
3. Therefore, humans are not visible to the naked eye

1. Vedic textual wrangling is not Vaisnava

2. Vedic textual wrangling is arguing (Vedic textual wrangling is an instance of argumentation)

3. Therefore arguing is not Vaisnava

Please study this carefully, so as not to continue in pointless and misleading argumentation.

[kimfelix]

cbrahma, are you really a Christian? I have a bit of an anti-Christian bias myself although I think it depends on the brand of Christianity.

[Kulapavana]

there are those who have anti-Christian bias, and those who have a pro-Christian bias. both miss the mark, which is to avoid any bias.

[Beggar]

 

...This is why it is good for critics to visit these forums and deflate your egos a bit, so that innocent seekers will not be taken in by your aggressive and unempathic "preaching."

Looks like an aggressive and unempathetic response to "aggressive and unempathic "preaching." The problem is not Iskcon or any other affiliation. Playing guru is just another way to express one's egotism. But in many ways you are correct but your analysis is really one of how religion and religious internet forums just might not mix. The internet hides how one behaves in real life, unfortuately we have become the internet's unwitting slaves.

[kimfelix]

And in answer to your first question, I think you are right about intellectual wrangling over scripture. And of course Christianity has suffered most from that problem with all its heresies. Speaking personally I find, for example, commentaries on Upanishad and Brahma Sutra so stimulating intellectually. I think it has broadened my mind.

 

And the reason why it has never entered my mind to convert away from Hindu Dharma is the way we are able to use scripture. My understanding is that in Christianity and Islam scripture is very authoritative, but for a Hindu it is not like that. We have a regular sangh and we read scripture but not everyone accepts what the text says. Some believe and some don't. For me scripture is a stimulus for my spirituality but it is not my master. Often I find a reading from an Upanishad provides the stimulus for a spiritual opening, it makes me think about the reality I inhabit and challenge my preconceptions. But the scripture is a tool that has been provided for me by the Rishis to help me in that movement, it is not my master. If that book doesn't help me at all, I can put it back on the shelf and look elsewhere. I can do that because I follow Hindu Dharma; elsewhere they seem to be bowing down and making the book their master. No offence intended here to yourself or your own beliefs.

[cbrahma]

 

And in answer to your first question, I think you are right about intellectual wrangling over scripture. And of course Christianity has suffered most from that problem with all its heresies. Speaking personally I find, for example, commentaries on Upanishad and Brahma Sutra so stimulating intellectually. I think it has broadened my mind.

 

And the reason why it has never entered my mind to convert away from Hindu Dharma is the way we are able to use scripture. My understanding is that in Christianity and Islam scripture is very authoritative, but for a Hindu it is not like that. We have a regular sangh and we read scripture but not everyone accepts what the text says. Some believe and some don't. For me scripture is a stimulus for my spirituality but it is not my master. Often I find a reading from an Upanishad provides the stimulus for a spiritual opening, it makes me think about the reality I inhabit and challenge my preconceptions. But the scripture is a tool that has been provided for me by the Rishis to help me in that movement, it is not my master. If that book doesn't help me at all, I can put it back on the shelf and look elsewhere. I can do that because I follow Hindu Dharma; elsewhere they seem to be bowing down and making the book their master. No offence intended here to yourself or your own beliefs.

Yes that is very different. I am more concerned with the bhakti marga in particular.

[cbrahma]

 

cbrahma, are you really a Christian? I have a bit of an anti-Christian bias myself although I think it depends on the brand of Christianity.

I'm not sure what a pro-Christian bias is, any more than a pro-Vaisnava bias. I don't think bias is the right word if one has the right understanding.

This thread has no sectarian implications whatsoever, at least not for me.

[raghu]

The person who contributed this wonderful gem of wisdom:

 

 

This forum is full of furious and often offensive debates on the Vedic scriptures - this Purana, that Purana, this Veda, that Veda.

 

How much does this dry brahminical study contribute to spiritual progress, if at all?

 

 

... has now posted 19 times on this thread consisting of (at this time) 41 total messages. She now has authored over 46% of the postings on this thread.

 

But, lest any of you offensive fellows get any ideas - she is NOT arguing about dry topics. On the contrary, her postings are full of the most nectarean words that have a direct bearing on your ability to relate to the Supreme God in a devotional mood. You will make much spiritual progress by reading and relishing her words.

[AncientMariner]

 

The person who contributed this wonderful gem of wisdom:

 

 

 

... has now posted 19 times on this thread consisting of (at this time) 41 total messages. She now has authored over 46% of the postings on this thread.

 

But, lest any of you offensive fellows get any ideas - she is NOT arguing about dry topics. On the contrary, her postings are full of the most nectarean words that have a direct bearing on your ability to relate to the Supreme God in a devotional mood. You will make much spiritual progress by reading and relishing her words.

 

 

I am definetly an offensive bastard and I admit I am not a Master Debater on any topic because I am about as smart as a sudra or a woman to be honest but all that said I have found quite a few of Cbrahma realizations to be quite interesting to read and even the topic of this thread seems like a legit question from my perspective.

[raghu]

 

I am definetly an offensive bastard and I admit I am not a Master Debater on any topic because I am about as smart as a sudra or a woman to be honest but all that said I have found quite a few of Cbrahma realizations to be quite interesting to read and even the topic of this thread seems like a legit question from my perspective.

 

Well, like you said, you are about as smart "as a sudra or woman"

[AncientMariner]

 

Well, like you said, you are about as smart "as a sudra or woman"

 

 

Yep, too many years listening to heavy metal and rap music. Hopefully some of the superior intelligence of the Vaisnavas will eventually rub off on me.

[cbrahma]

Raghu has graduated to my ignore list, because he tries to high-jack the thread by repeating the same dull argument ad nauseam, which I apparently have failed to enlighten him on. He even has decided my gender (also in error) His one trick pony is lame. He is either dim-witted or deceitful, or maybe both.

[raghu]

 

Raghu has graduated to my ignore list, because he tries to high-jack the thread by repeating the same dull argument ad nauseam, which I apparently have failed to enlighten him on. He even has decided my gender (also in error) His one trick pony is lame. He is either dim-witted or deceitful, or maybe both.

 

For a person who eschews dry argument as being unfavorable to the development of devotional mood (a point which I agree with), you were easily provoked into responding to my glib remarks over 10 times on this thread, and that too with various accusations about my motivations, ad hominem attacks, and other very heated comments just to rationalize your desire to have the last word.

 

All of this was of course to prove my point that discouraging non-devotional arguing was not your point - you just wanted to discourage argument about subjects with which you are uncomfortable (Vedas, Puranas, etc).

 

Posting about Vedas and Puranas is the appropriate activity for a Vaishnava forum. Posting remarks whose sole purpose is to villify the other guy is not. But then, here I am apparently trying to have the last word. So, let that last word be a relevant, devotional one:

 

 

anudvega-karaḿvākyaḿsatyaḿpriya-hitaḿcayat

svādhyāyābhyasanaḿ caiva vāń-mayaḿtapaucyate

 

"Austerity of speech consists in speaking words that are truthful, pleasing, beneficial, and not agitating to others, and also in regularly reciting Vedic literature." (gItA 17.15, iskcon translation)

 

 

(By the way, this comment is equally directed to the veda-vAda-ratAH on this forum who use the Vedas as a pretext to assail each other with sharp words unbecoming of a Vaishnava. Shame on you fellows! You know who you are.)

[krishnadasa]

 

I have personally noticed that the stories in Srimad Bhagavatam are actually really pretty simple stories somewhat like Bible stories so I really don't even see why there is even that much to debate about.

 

Had it been only to with the stories of bible, nobody wud have refuted at all.. but with it also comes a differnt way of living (un-vedic), which someone tries to compare with vedic way of living .. there comes all the problems.. U see what I mean.. and people do try to put a name of conservative thinking, which I never mind anyways...

 

As rightly said,, religion is made with Desa, kaala and paatra.. In mathematical way

 

Religion = F(Desa, Kaala , Paatra),, and religion or the way of living changes accordingly..I cant try to be a vedic in Rome, be a roman in Rome, thats the bottom line..

[krishnadasa]

On your bottomline....

Guess if you dont take whats given to you , then it remains with the person who has given it ...

Hari bol<!-- / sig -->