Literary Incarnation

[theist]

I see two types of Literary Incarnations of God. One type is Vysadeva who gave us the written scripture and another is the Lord Himself appearing in the form of literature.

 

Is this agreeable?

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Vyasa gained His knowledge from His guru Naradamuni, parampara. What you said is true prabhuji, though sometimes its easy to see Vyasa as an independent person with no parampara due to His powerful Knowledge.

[bija]

Good question Theist. Isnt Vyasadeva considered an incarnation of God? I would like to understand more about that in relation to Sri Krsna.

[indulekhadasi]

 

Good question Theist. Isnt Vyasadeva considered an incarnation of God? I would like to understand more about that in relation to Sri Krsna.

 

Vyasadeva is a saktyavesa avatara of the Supreme Lord.

[bija]

'Vyasadeva is a saktyavesa avatara of the Supreme Lord.'

Is there only one Vyasadeva, or several Vyasadevas? It is a bit inconceivable to me...what do our acarayas say?

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Oh yes, don't forget theres no difference between book bhagavata and person bhagavata, maybe this specifically refers to your question. BOOK being Veda written by Vyasa and person being Krishna.

[indulekhadasi]

 

'Vyasadeva is a saktyavesa avatara of the Supreme Lord.'

Is there only one Vyasadeva, or several Vyasadevas? It is a bit inconceivable to me...what do our acarayas say?

 

 

At least in this universe there is only one Vyasadeva!

But remember there are unlimited universes in the brahmanda!

[bija]

Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter Verse 17

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable oḿ. I am also the Ṛg, the Sāma and the Yajur Vedas.

 

 

PURPORT

The entire cosmic manifestations, moving and nonmoving, are manifested by different activities of Kṛṣṇa's energy. In the material existence we create different relationships with different living entities who are nothing but Kṛṣṇa's marginal energy; under the creation of prakṛti some of them appear as our father, mother, grandfather, creator, etc., but actually they are parts and parcels of Kṛṣṇa. As such, these living entities who appear to be our father, mother, etc., are nothing but Kṛṣṇa. In this verse the word dhātā means "creator." Not only are our father and mother parts and parcels of Kṛṣṇa, but the creator, grandmother and grandfather, etc., are also Kṛṣṇa. Actually any living entity, being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, is Kṛṣṇa. All the Vedas, therefore, aim only toward Kṛṣṇa. Whatever we want to know through the Vedas is but a progressive step toward understanding Kṛṣṇa. That subject matter which helps us purify our constitutional position is especially Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, the living entity who is inquisitive to understand all Vedic principles is also part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa and as such is also Kṛṣṇa. In all the Vedic mantras the word oḿ, called praṇava, is a transcendental sound vibration and is also Kṛṣṇa. And because in all the hymns of the four Vedas — Sāma, Yajur, Ṛg and Atharva — the praṇava, or oḿkāra, is very prominent, it is understood to be Kṛṣṇa.

[bija]

At least in this universe there is only one Vyasadeva!

But remember there are unlimited universes in the brahmanda!

Wow that is deep and makes me think. What is this brahmanda and how diverse are things really? Jaya!!!

[indulekhadasi]

 

At least in this universe there is only one Vyasadeva!

But remember there are unlimited universes in the brahmanda!

Wow that is deep and makes me think. What is this brahmanda and how diverse are things really? Jaya!!!

 

It is quite hard to even imagine that USA is just a tiny tiny speck of the whole universe, and then there are unlimited universes. Nevertheless, Krishna keeps track of everything. He is truely great and it is our duty to serve Him.

[bija]

I see two types of Literary Incarnations of God. One type is Vysadeva who gave us the written scripture and another is the Lord Himself appearing in the form of literature.

Is this agreeable? by theist

 

The Srimad Bhagavatam for example, isnt that the divine realizations of Srila Vyasadevas heart? So in one sense they must be non-different and at the same time different.

 

It boggles my mind, in some way Vyasas pen is worshipping God, serving God, just like the tongue chanting the Glories of the Lord. At some point according to Srila Prabhupada Krsna comes and dances on the tongue.

 

Looking deeper at your question Theist, the statement really glorifies Vedic literature. And shows its greatness.

 

I still dont have an answer to your question:)

[theist]

 

Good question Theist. Isnt Vyasadeva considered an incarnation of God? I would like to understand more about that in relation to Sri Krsna.

It is said he is a Skatya-vesa avatar empowered to pen the Veda. Thus the term literary incarnation.

 

But from another angle can the Supreme Lord not incarnate in the form of literaure itself?

 

Most would agree I think.

 

edit: I see Vysadeva's position has been identified already.

[bija]

Yeah...I see the scripture that way. And like you maybe, I see the beautiful essence of it as the incarnation. And that essence is like fire, if we touch it we also become like fire.

 

And even if I become like fire, totally spiritualized, the body will still turn to dust, even though it was pervaded by fire. But the body served its purpose well, it was the sacred vessel. Much like any vessel, such as books, cultural codes, rituals etc etc. You know what i mean Theist?

 

Goodness I might really 'get flamed' after saying that:outta:

 

Never will I minimize the value of the literalists, because we all need a foundation to build upon and awaken. As we are all diverse, foundations may be diverse, but by the grace of god and his kindness, he has given us all these things, to eventually fully self realize. So again I will never tear down what god has ordained. I will not make the bold claim that my station is more advanced and puff the ego, beauty can be found in all places. Even in Vaikuntha there may appear to be gradation, but wherever we are, we are fully satisfied in love, of that beauty and grace.

[Beggar]

Srila Bhakti Sunadar Govinda Maharaj:

 

Srila Krishna Das Kaviraj Goswami writes in Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita that Vyasadev (the author of Srimad Bhagavatam) appeared as Srila Vrindavan Das Thakur. He also mentions the future appearance of Vyasadev who is none other than Krishna Das Kaviraj himself.

[bija]

aaah....I didnt know that beggar....thx

 

I wont ask you how one vyasa can appear in so many personalities? And if any more will come?

[theist]

 

I see two types of Literary Incarnations of God. One type is Vysadeva who gave us the written scripture and another is the Lord Himself appearing in the form of literature.

Is this agreeable? by theist

 

The Srimad Bhagavatam for example, isnt that the divine realizations of Srila Vyasadevas heart? So in one sense they must be non-different and at the same time different.

 

It boggles my mind, in some way Vyasas pen is worshipping God, serving God, just like the tongue chanting the Glories of the Lord. At some point according to Srila Prabhupada Krsna comes and dances on the tongue.

 

Looking deeper at your question Theist, the statement really glorifies Vedic literature. And shows its greatness.

 

I still dont have an answer to your question:)

I am going somewhere with this line and you just provided the perfect segway.

 

So Vedavyasa penned his realizations of the tenth canto having experienced them in his heart.

 

My question is does it make a difference if the Krsna-lila he saw in his heart had already been played out in the earthly 3d Vrndavan or not? That is would the Lord's pastimes be any less transcendental if they only appeared in heart of Vyasadeva? Is Krsna appearance in the heart of Vyasadeva any less then his appearance in the hearts, mind. womb and prision cell of Vasudeva and Devaki?

 

Now if we can accept that the appearance of the Lord in the heart of his pure and empowered devotee, in this case Vyasadeva, is ever much as transcendental as His appearance in Kamsa's prision then there is no basis for ever calling the appearance of the Lord fictional in the heart and mind of Vysadeva. And that would hold true even if that appearance of the Lord only took place in the heart and mind of Vyasadeva and never on the earthly 3d plane.

 

There is nothing special about the 3d earth dimension that could add anything to the transcendental quality of Krsna's appearance or pastimes. Transcendence cannot be added to or subtracted from.

 

And it is on this basis that I accept the LITERAL occurance of Krsna-lila and the Vrndavan pastimes. From this perspective there is absolutely no need to harmonize the pastimes themselves with the structure of the 3d world in terms of time and space i.e. Ugrasena's trillions of bodyguards. From this perspective there is no disharmony to harmonize.

 

Works for me.

[bija]

I knew you were going somewhere with this, I was waiting.

 

It works for me too Theist, and that is what I love about the spirituality I have awoken to day by day. I adore the Bhagavatam like most of us here. And am happy to worship the heart of Srila Vyasadeva and meet Krsna when he chooses.

[theist]

Thanks bija. You are the only one I have mentioned this too that took the time to really listen and not just flame me as a "mayavadi" or heretic.

[Beggar]

 

aaah....I didnt know that beggar....thx

 

I wont ask you how one vyasa can appear in so many personalities? And if any more will come?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said that Vyasadev is not a specific person but rather a post. Srila Dvaipayan Vyasadev is the compiler of the four Vedas, Puranas - including Srimad Bhagavatam, Mahabharata and other books. Srila Dvaipayan Vyasadev is a specific person who was also a shaktyavesa avatar. Of course so must be Srila Vrndavan das Thakur and Srila Krsna das Kaviraj for no one can give such transcendental literatures without being empowered, krsna sakti vina nahi tara pravartana.

[bija]

I have been labelled a heretic all my life Theist. In all seriousness though, I dont hold your view on all things as you know, but this vision and spirituality regarding Vyasa is something we share in realization. Its a great place to be, free of all them doubts and arguments;). When I saw this way by grace and some acaryas words, a big weight dropped off my shoulders, and good things began to appear.

 

My doubts are all on the net, and this is good. Oneday when I am not here people may have a look at the journey and see a little of who we are. What made us what we are, and what we become. dadee dadee de dah...god I dream alot. Booking a ticket for a celestial chariot...calling all passengers!

 

Through the Holy Name, if we can hit a peak experience, and get a glimpse of Sri Sri Radha-Madhava's beauty, there is no turning back. Mockers can come, people can label us, attempt to tear our heart to bits, but if we have seen that beautiful soft blue belly and sides of He...who cares what they think. Such a vision of His pinkish soles is all we need to aspire for.

 

Jaya Srila Vyasadeva, the embodiment of compassion and mercy.

 

Here is a painting a good freind finished at the latest Mayapur art seminar, if I had the money I would buy this and put it in a beautiful ashram in my home town. This painting is the most beautiful thing I have ever see in my life. I saw this painting in prayer before the first brush was painted.

 

Here is the writing I wrote about it before it actualized:

 

Dedicated to our beloved teacher

A Prayer and Reflection

(a dialogue of the devotee and Sri Krishna)

by Nava

Sri Krishna: 'My form is not what your material mind has previously thought, my dear devotee! I wish you to see me now!'

Devotee: 'I guessed so Lord! I wish to see you as you truly are now! I have not conceived until this moment! Are you Pure Spiritual Consciousness Form?'

Sri Krishna: 'Yes my dear one I am! My eyes are 'like' Lotus Petals! My hair is 'like' a dark monsoon cloud! My skin is 'like' shining sapphires!

My abode and myself are one and the same substance!'

Sri Krishna: 'Please my dear devotee understand this: Srila Vyasadeva and all other great devotees like Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura have seen the beauty of my Form! They have used words to describe Me. I am 'like' this! I am 'like' this'! Words are like a 'picture'.'

Sri Krishna: 'See me now dear one! Through the words of the saints. Forever in your heart, and in all that you see! Then you will meet me, of this have no doubt!'

Devotee: 'Oh dear Sri Krishna, such beauty my mind has not conceived before! 'Words' fail to describe what I have seen now! I accept you as my Lord, do with me as you please.'

[theist]

Vedavyasadeva was an example. We could also bring up the plays of Rupa Gosvami or the Govinda-lilartam of Krsnadas Kaviraja.

[bija]

I am not qualified to comment too much on the acaryas words. But I do know spiritualism as I practice is very different from the western idea of god and religion that I was raised with.

 

Maybe that is why there is so much heated debate from different sectors, people just dont understand the jewel of spiritualism. Maybe our cultural mindsets are the blocks, and maybe a total break down of the self structures and conditions would be necessary to see with new courage.

 

Isnt that what the Hare Krsna cult claims to do anyway...cleanse the mind:cool:

 

Years ago when I was backpacking through the US I was asked to join Iskcon San Diego. The german born temple president offered for me to stay like he did. I was just a kid and didnt know myself...

 

I was still heavily conditioned by my catholic upbringing...so I said to him...

 

'Arent you guys a cult and brainwash people?'

 

He smiled and replied, 'yes we cleanse the brain'.

 

I took off to fulfill more desires and experiences.

 

But I will never forget dancing around Tulsi devi that morning, and the altered state of self awareness and perception that unfolded...and the millions of sins that fell away that day....

 

Jaya Tulasi devi!!

[theist]

bump

[Kulapavana]

 

Vedavyasadeva was an example. We could also bring up the plays of Rupa Gosvami or the Govinda-lilartam of Krsnadas Kaviraja.

 

We should be careful with such extrapolations. Vyasadeva is a person designated and empowered by Lord Krsna to preserve Vedic knowledge in a particular period of time. Krsna Dvaipayana is that person in our age. Other writers may be inspired and empowered to put forth books about God, but they are not considered "literary incarnations of God".

 

The same applies to books. Not all books about God are "literary incarnations of God". Bhagavatam is a literary incarnation of God because it fully reflects the beauty, characteristics, and power of Sri Krsna.

[theist]

Kulapavanna could you explain the relationship of your words to my statement which you quoted? I am a bit baffled by what your point may be. For instance no where have I said all books about God are literary incarnations of God so I am wondering what you are objecting to.