Universality and transcendance

[Kulapavana]

 

I would not dare to drink Tulasi tea... I really like the aroma of Tulasi manjaris offered to my Shalagram silas but that's all. by kula

 

This is just another example of my complete ignorance and isolation from vaisnava sangha.

 

Arent we supposed to consume Tulasi? Someone once told me she would not offer tulasi to Krsna in an aromatic tea with spice?

The couple of times I have been to a temple, receiving the bathing liquid from the deities is a beautiful experience. Several times the kind devotee would make sure large manjaris were in the mixture for me.

 

I take tulasi after the offering as a medicine for her properties to maintain a health disorder.

 

Could you please enlighten me?

 

What do you do with Tulasi after you have taken her aroma? Do you place her back in the soil?

 

There is a long standing practice among all Vaishnava groups not to make any boiled or steamed preparations using Tulasi leaves or manjaris, even if meant as an offering to Krsna. It is auspicious to eat Tulasi leaves or manjaris (fresh or dried) after they have been offered to Krsna, but they are not supposed to be heated. I am not sure why, but that is the custom.

 

I burn the un-offerable Tulasi leaves (I have several large Tulasis in my house and they drop a lot of leaves), or scatter them outside the house for protection against inauspicious spirits. The offered Tulasi leaves and manjaris can be used as a medicine, but not heated. They store very well after they have been dried. If you grind them into powder you can add them to your prasadam - it is both auspicious and medicinal.

 

In general, Tulasi is supposed to be returned into the earth, water, or into the fire.

[bija]

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I honestly look at my devotional life Kulapavana and I dont do very well with the vaisnava ways. I guess that is a by-product of never having association. I justify my lacks efforts in regulation due to this isolation, and depend on mercy of Sri Sri Nitaai-Gauranga to help me.

 

I wish Lord Caitanya's prphecy had come true, 'every town and village'. We spend hundreds of dollars on books, we chant, we offer prasadam....we are even isolated in our rural community giving up so many cultural things....and the big centres in the city never telephone or offer intimacy.

 

I telephoned the big centre in the city this year to see if I coould sleep on the floor for Gaura-purnima. I have a diagnosed illness, have been on a pension since my twenties, hence no money. The monk on the phone was cold and asked me 'are you initiated in Iskcon, are you a part of our group'. I was not offered a bed. I would have slept in a corridor I wanted association so bad on Gaura purnima.

 

This gaura purnima I stayed home and felt that was the lords mercy, due to my sinfullness and offences, not having association once again. I had no money so I offered the Lord lemons, yoghurt, ghee, Tulasi tea and leaves from my garden.

 

It has hurt me that Iskcon sees me as an outcast. Considering years ago, when I was very sick I used to hitch hike 3 hrs to the city or catch rides, or drive a bomb of a car that used to break down. Sit in the temple in the sunday feast, longing for association. But devotees who were young ignored my dishelved appearance. So I would travel 3 hrs home at night, and get home at maybe 1am, worn out and tired. I gave up doing this eventually.These days managment will allow me to visit there and do some small service, but I am considered a non-iskcon and close association is never really offered. I have heard that in the presidents lectures about non-iskcon devotees, 'no close intimacy will be offered'.

 

In my heart though, I love these devotees in the city, and keep this pain deep within.

 

A few weeks ago the Lord allowed me to go to the city centre, Iskcon, a government allowance for gas and electricity came through. So I stayed in that hellish back packers. The deities were divnine, the association was top class, my longing to be a vaisnava monk was felt, shivers and tears in private penetrated my whole body on hearing the Holy Names from the saints. It was heaven for me. And in jaap on the forth morning Krsna appeared, which was indescribable first encounter for me.

 

I may be sahajiya, or just fallen. In my personal life I do not make a show of things. Or I may be a fringe group Gaudiya. But in my heart of hearts I wish Iskcon really had been, 'every town and village' and would have extended a telephone and support. The books sets I bought from them are my treasure, my shelter....and to be frankly honest...I would not be alive without those books today, but dead on the street possibly....like alot of marginalized outcast schizophrenics. And also the hope of oneday living with devotees gives me vision and strength to live day by day.

 

Sorry for me negative post today, I am very tired....this week I have walked through a relapse in health after five years of being relatively symptom free.

 

Thank you for your respone Kula.

 

Here is photos of my neglected Nitaai Gaura this Purnima. With Tulasi tea. It was an un-suci offering, but they are still glowing! Thank heavens they dont take offences!

[AncientMariner]

No offense but being an outcast from Iskcon could be interpreted as a special mercy of the Lord.

[Kulapavana]

 

How fortuante was I to meet a Guru on the net who took me in, when I was perishing from no shelter. I am an ignorant fool, and unregulated, due to years of living with an illness based in the mode of ignorance. but I have raised my jaap to 64 rounds each of the Nityanand and Gauranga Mantrarajas, and 48 rounds of the Mahamantra everyday.

 

A few weeks ago the Lord allowed me to go to the city centre, Iskcon, a government allowance for gas and electricity came through. So I stayed in that hellish back packers. The deities were divnine, the association was top class, my longing to be a vaisnava monk was felt, shivers and tears in private penetrated my whole body on hearing the Holy Names from the saints. It was heaven for me. And in jaap on the forth morning Krsna appeared, which was indescribable first encounter for me.

 

I may be sahajiya, or just fallen. In my personal life I do not make a show of things. Or I may be a fringe group Gaudiya. But in my heart of hearts I wish Iskcon really had been, 'every town and village' and would have extended a telephone and support. The books sets I bought from them are my treasure, my shelter....and to be frankly honest...I would not be alive withoit those books today, but dead on the street possibly....like alot of marginalized outcast schizophrenics.

 

Sorry for me negative post today, I am very tired....this week I have walked through a relapse in health.

 

 

I feel for you... The real association is hard to get, even if you live close to a temple. It is mostly in brief moments of intense "being there" for somebody else, or when a good kirtan penetrates our coverings. Maybe with time you will find the right sanga and people who will appreciate whatever you can offer to Krsna. We need to go "outside" to verify our state of consciousness, otherwise we gradually sink into a world of make believe.

 

I will pray for you, that you may find the right place for yourself in this world. Too bad you do not live in the area - you would like Prabhupada Village. It is full of good devotees.

[bija]

No offense but being an outcast from Iskcon could be interpreted as a special mercy of the Lord. by ancient

That is the truth of the matter you see! Iskcon is not fallen I am. Possibly due to years of vasinava aparadha birth after birth.

[bija]

We need to go "outside" to verify our state of consciousness, otherwise we gradually sink into a world of make believe. kula

What does this mean Prabhu?

 

I would have loved to live in Prabhupada Village, I remember seeing your photos and admiring the vision.

 

There is an old derilict Iskcon farm two hrs from me, that I used to visit. A husband and wife have moved there recently. He is an ocean of mercy and is offering much kindness. It is called New Nandagram. They hope to have it productve in the next five or ten years. I am looking forward to getting confidence in social relations, on this road to recovery from over a decade of serious illness. My last trip to Melbourne was a step in that direction. And also I did see Ammachi on her visit then, her sangha was so full of light and love, she is also and ocean of mercy and a living saint no doubt, she hugged me and kissed me, and healed me alot. And a shakta which is taboo isnt it? Still a bonafide saint in my hearts view. She is so lovely.

 

You know...the Holy Name of Gauranga is the only hope in this age of Kali. I believe that statement of Srila Bhaktivinoda with all my heart...Gurudeva shared that truth with me the first day we met.

 

kali-jivera aparaadha asankhya durvaara

gaura-naama vinaa taara naahika uddhaara..55

"The offenses and sins of the souls of Kali Yuga are unlimited and absolutely impossible to overcome. Thus, there is no other means of deliverance in Kali Yuga other than the exceptionally merciful Holy Name of Lord Gauranga." Navdwipa Dham Mahatmya - BVT

[Kulapavana]

 

We need to go "outside" to verify our state of consciousness, otherwise we gradually sink into a world of make believe. kula

 

What does this mean Prabhu?

 

 

that we need a true association of devotees (like revealing our mind in confidence) in order to maintain our sanity and make real progress. For example: It is easy to be "humble" when you are alone. But a true humility is in how we relate to others. Without a real test it is easy to think we are better than we actually are.

[bija]

But a true humility is in how we relate to others. Without a real test it is easy to think we are better than we actually are.

kula

 

Yes, that is so true. Thx. It has been a hard lesson lately, but one we all need to learn in life, especially with this illness.

 

I would have to agree with cbrahma on some points, in regards to rigid rules etc. How are we supposed to live such regulated lives, when there is no social support network or society to live this ideal with? Prabhupada founded the society as a society didnt he. These days it seems there are considerations about joining the society in communal ashram living. It felt almost like Iskcon looks for producitivity or some other qualification. Ofcousre in my case being ill it is understandable why the network was not attained.

 

Anyhow, lets get back to the topic of Universality and Transcendence.

[bija]

Dear devotees,

I have not had access to home computer for the last week (still awaiting computer repairs since my computer fried itself last thursday week). I have had time to contemplate on my last few posts in this thread, in relation to 'Universality and transcendence'.

 

Firstly I wish to aplogize to the devotees I have offended in these posts due to careless comments. Due to past karma, fragility, and deep conditioning within my mind, my thoughts were disordered, disrespectful, ungrateful, and not from my heart.

 

The tender shoot of Bhakti Devi extends to the fallen devotee such as myself by the sweet will and compassion of a pure devotee. Bhakti Devi being non-different to the appearance of the Lord in the heart, responds to the compassionate will of the pure devotee and extends her causless mercy thus.

 

Four years ago I received the compassionate glance of a pure hearted devotee, which had the effect of pulling me out of the abyss of degraded life which was bereft of spiirtual shelter, due to my past impious actions. It is of great importance as fallen souls, if we ever receive such causless mercy, to hold that debt of gratitude deep within our soul, heart and mind; as such mercy is the pure expression of Sri Nitaai!

 

My spiirtual master is not a hard task master and very patient. He has given me two very essential and important instructions, 1/chant the holy name constantly or as much as possible, 2/ at all costs never offend vaisnavas.

I have failed this second instruction in this thread, and simply ask for forgiveness from all who have heard my words. Such words are like poison on the internet, like a nasty virus.

 

Bhakti is also a reciprocation between two or more devotees, and such rare devotional relationships require nurture, care, and time to cultivate 'well and blossom', into what they truly are.

 

My hope and prayer from the core of my heart is that 'the rule of no close intimate association' due to instituitional, organizational, and most importantly 'necessity due to fatherly care of a neophyte flock', and also exercising practicality and daily affairs of ashram living and community...may become a secondary rule as we awaken to our true nature of a spotless heart. So that the spontaneous flow of devotion, friendship, respect and love between devotees, may not be inhibited by the necessary institutional structures that are essential while still in contact with the material body and material manifestation.

 

I fully support all institutional Gaudiya structures and practicalities, and at the same time within my heart long for the day that Sri Sri Nitaai-Gauranga's movement of causeless love may be fully manifested in this material plane, fully spiritualizing it. In simple terms, the spiritualization of my fallen conditioned mind....thus bringing to the forefront of our minds the eternal truth of 'Universality and transcendence'.

 

 

Madurya Kadambini - first shower of nectar:

 

"Like cloudbanks filled with life-giving showers, may Lord Gauranga's mercy revive the plant of my life perishing in the desert of material existence...The very appearance of Lord Gauranga's mercy cools the scorching heat of material life and gives joy to the entire universe." ....."The single cause that attracts the mercy of the lord is the bhakti that permanently resides in the pure devotees heart. In other words Krsna's mercy will not be invoked without that bhakti within the heart of His pure devotee which attracts the mercy to appear in the first place....devotion is the only cause of devotion; Bhakti Devi does not require any cause or reason to appear other than her own sweet will."

 

Dear devotees I am sorry for the offences in this thread; due to my poor health (which is no excuse) and sensitive heart, I beg forgiveness for the loose words in this thread. Which is evidence of my kanistha mind. Please disregard all poisonous words I have used which are like an internet virus....and only allow the holy name of Nitaai-Gauranga to remain, and the essence of the grace of the compassionate vaisnava's which can somehow be extracted from these posts.

 

Without the mercy of the Iskcon Tree for the last 22 years in my life, sprouting when needed, and its servants faithful preaching and books distribution, I would have long ago perished without tasting the sweet mercy of our spiritual path - Gaudiya Vaisnavism and the teachings of Sri Rupa, which has been like soothing life nectar to my soul.

 

Please forgive my foolishness in seeking friendship and shelter out of necessity on the world wide web. To have contact with devotees on this medium is truly wonderful, even if somewhat impersonal, and it is a technology which I aspire to use wisely in dealings. Especially when devotees are not always present to defend themselves. Thank you.

[AncientMariner]

 

Dear devotees,

I have not had access to home computer for the last week (still awaiting computer repairs since my computer fried itself last thursday week). I have had time to contemplate on my last few posts in this thread, in relation to 'Universality and transcendence'.

 

Firstly I wish to aplogize to the devotees I have offended in these posts due to careless comments. Due to past karma, fragility, and deep conditioning within my mind, my thoughts were disordered, disrespectful, ungrateful, and not from my heart.

 

The tender shoot of Bhakti Devi extends to the fallen devotee such as myself by the sweet will and compassion of a pure devotee. Bhakti Devi being non-different to the appearance of the Lord in the heart, responds to the compassionate will of the pure devotee and extends her causless mercy thus.

 

Four years ago I received the compassionate glance of a pure hearted devotee, which had the effect of pulling me out of the abyss of degraded life which was bereft of spiirtual shelter, due to my past impious actions. It is of great importance as fallen souls, if we ever receive such causless mercy, to hold that debt of gratitude deep within our soul, heart and mind; as such mercy is the pure expression of Sri Nitaai!

 

My spiirtual master is not a hard task master and very patient. He has given me two very essential and important instructions, 1/chant the holy name constantly or as much as possible, 2/ at all costs never offend vaisnavas.

I have failed this second instruction in this thread, and simply ask for forgiveness from all who have heard my words. Such words are like poison on the internet, like a nasty virus.

 

Bhakti is also a reciprocation between two or more devotees, and such rare devotional relationships require nurture, care, and time to cultivate 'well and blossom', into what they truly are.

 

My hope and prayer from the core of my heart is that 'the rule of no close intimate association' due to instituitional, organizational, and most importantly 'necessity due to fatherly care of a neophyte flock', and also exercising practicality and daily affairs of ashram living and community...may become a secondary rule as we awaken to our true nature of a spotless heart. So that the spontaneous flow of devotion, friendship, respect and love between devotees, may not be inhibited by the necessary institutional structures that are essential while still in contact with the material body and material manifestation.

 

I fully support all institutional Gaudiya structures and practicalities, and at the same time within my heart long for the day that Sri Sri Nitaai-Gauranga's movement of causeless love may be fully manifested in this material plane, fully spiritualizing it. In simple terms, the spiritualization of my fallen conditioned mind....thus bringing to the forefront of our minds the eternal truth of 'Universality and transcendence'.

 

 

Dear devotees I am sorry for the offences in this thread; due to my poor health (which is no excuse) and sensitive heart, I beg forgiveness for the loose words in this thread. Which is evidence of my kanistha mind. Please disregard all poisonous words I have used which are like an internet virus....and only allow the holy name of Nitaai-Gauranga to remain, and the essence of the grace of the compassionate vaisnava's which can somehow be extracted from these posts.

 

Without the mercy of the Iskcon Tree for the last 22 years in my life, sprouting when needed, and its servants faithful preaching and books distribution, I would have long ago perished without tasting the sweet mercy of our spiritual path - Gaudiya Vaisnavism and the teachings of Sri Rupa, which has been like soothing life nectar to my soul.

 

Please forgive my foolishness in seeking friendship and shelter out of necessity on the world wide web. To have contact with devotees on this medium is truly wonderful, even if somewhat impersonal, and it is a technology which I aspire to use wisely in dealings. Especially when devotees are not always present to defend themselves. Thank you.

 

 

As far as I have seen you have always been a gentleman on these forums.

[Malati dasi]

Radhe Radhe

 

Bija

 

I havent been following this thread but something today beckons me to have a read of this thread.

 

"Your somewhere in the bush" ID and from your postings in the past tell me you're from Oz in the same state I'm in and a few hours drive away from me.

 

For personal reasons and also because I am initiated in the traditional line (to make it simple, ok) I dont go to the ISKCON temple anymore and my sanga is mostly on the net or online chat with my gurubhai, plus sanga when I travel to Vraja.

 

It's such a coincidence ,bija, that you are looking for some association as another ISKCON initiated devotee, an Indian extraction medical doctor from Malaysia initiated by an ISKCON guru, is also looking for some sanga.

 

It's like this. My ex-husband (bet you though he's agnostic this lifetime, he'll be a devotee next life) consulted with this GP and being Indian my husband asked him which part of India he came from because his ex-wife, me, just arrived from India. The doc told him he is interested to meet with a devotee and quite surprised that there is a GV devotee in our area. So he gave his email address and mobile no.

 

I have exchanged emails with him and I will see him on monday in his practice for consultation. I actually have a book for him when I see him.

 

My point is we should get GV association whenever we see it. Afterall we are all taking shelter under Mahaprabhu's umbrella. Whether one is from ISKCON, GM or its offshoots or trad like me or GV interested non-initiate (so long as this non-initiated is not there for a confronting debate but for a serious enquiry).

 

Maybe this GP could be a help to you medically and sanga wise.

 

I'm also interested in exchanging ideas with another devotee. Don't feel offended by my post. Though I'm a woman I live in the real world. I deal with men and women everday at work. So don't worry, I won't bite you!

 

I actually feel sorry that the ONLY woman devotee I had a close relationship with is also gone in my life because I took the more traditional path. I'm still open for her but she has now closed the door.

 

If you feel you want to widen your circle, please email me at jivattatva (at) .co.uk or phone 03 9734 4241 or mob 043 383 7569

[bija]

Thx for your offer of friendship Malati dasi. My devotional life is simple and unique here in some ways. Basically I have had attraction to Hare Krsna movement since 1986. Met devotees and stayed for a short time in Iskcon San Diego while back-packing, loved it alot but was not ready. After that had brief contacts with Iskcon, but due to distance, financial restraints, and poor health closer contact never really developed. Saying that I love Iskcon Deities at Melbourne Mandir,Their Lordships and the devotees are most beautiful (most beautiful)!! I have opportunity now to do seva at a farm several hours away that is evolving slowly...nectar devotees! Hopefully that can manifest in my life by grace.

 

I was very fortunate that one very simple mataji lived in my hometown for many years, she was the only Gaudiya for a very long time here. After I bought the books sets in 2001 she made contact, and became friends for about six years. I was really really lucky that she lived here and found me. She gave me small Gaura-Nitaai deities, all sorts of prasadam from Melbourne mandir etc. She was a senior mataji since the 70's and moved away last year. Our contact is minimal now as she is a very strict brahmacarini living ashrama life.

 

So basically Malati I have never been a part of an institution or anything like that. My gurudeva does not have institutional structures either. So my mindset does not think institutionally. Since a small child my thinking is very universal. Infact I am very sensitive when devotees even talk about sectarianism, it hurts me inside alot....and normally avoid such company at all costs (at audarya fellowship its displeasing for me to hear so much anti iskcon non-sense, but the diversity here is rich so I stay - for good or bad). It disturbs my bhajan and mood to enter talk that is not necessary to simple bhakti. And I hesitate to go near sangha where sectarian difficulties may evolve, that is why I am cautious when going near sanghas...I care for others and wish not to allow such things or conversations to enter into anyones mind. But some devotees minds are saturated with those things unfortunately. It will block bhava in my opinion. To be frank I really dislike such thinking that has presented itself in our movement. So even on the internet here I am not comfortable talking about it...I know this would also be my masters wish also to keep discussion minimal in these matters!

 

I am a very fallen devotee...but in my heart of hearts aspire for Manjari bhava one lifetime...a long long road for sure! So Naam is my shelter to cleanse the heart this life.

 

I am not a classic schizophrenic, and it may be miss diagnosis. I live on a very fragile subtle plane....synesthesia is one thing I live with for years now, and other psychic things since childhood. Vimanas, spirits etc. Its a real fine line to maintain wellness, especially living a yogic lifestyle which is vastly different to western mindsets and world view which surrounds me. To find medical practicioners who have empathy is rare, such awful psychiatry (that almost killed me years ago due to Neuro Leptic Malignant Syndrome and being Institutionalized for many months). So due to deep sensitivites as an empath, who has lived with illness....the path is slow and needs care.

 

I am very interested in following the footseps of Sri Rupa...Vraj is close if we can ever get a tiny glimpse. That is my aspiration now. There is one very simple small book I love called Sri Caitanya and Raganuga Bhakti by Srila Adikeshava Prabhu. It is available click here

 

Due to my respect for Gurudeva this will be my final post in discussing these matters, I was very disappointed last week with what I wrote.

 

Thx Malati for your kindness, maybe we can talk more about Gaura soon.

 

Gaura Gaura Haribol!

[cbrahma]

 

Yes...Prabhupada cannot make things up that are not in shastra. No Guru has the authority to do that.

 

This is why I say people who link Jesus and Vaishnavism without basis are either idiots or hypocrites. Pick your choice.

 

So by implication Prabhupada is an idiot or a hypocrite.

I don't know what prevails in your sweeping judgments - the arrogance or the incoherence.

[bija]

This is why I say people who link Jesus and Vaishnavism without basis are either idiots or hypocrites. Pick your choice. quote by matarisvan

What about vaisnava's who offer respect to Lord Jesus and have bhakti in their hearts for him. Who see him as a very special devotee and representative of God, or even as a shaktyavesavatara. Are they idiots, or devotees filled with the treasure of bhakti? I dont understand vaisnava's who tear Jesus to bits....I wear tilaka and dhoti but am nothing compared to christ.

[Malati dasi]

Radhe Radhe

 

I think the point we are forgetting is that even Bhaktivinode Thakur had said that Gaudiya Vaishnavas were meant to be ekantic sadhaks/bhaktas, meaning being one-pointed in their devotion to their ista devas.

 

A very long thread has discussed the Jesus-Vaishnav link or no link, I wont drag that debate again. Dark warrior , Raghu, Tackleberry, Shvu gave a very convincing, very intelligent, very logical, wholistic look of Jesus's place in GVism and Vedic based philosophy. Even Hari Bhakti Vilas by Srila Sanatan Goswami defines what a Vaishnava means, so I need not say more.

 

To those who say there is a convincing link, to me, are buddhists, (all is one, one is all) and additionally are bordering on the position of political correctness.

 

To Bija

Be careful what you write sometimes, people might just call your bluff!

[cbrahma]

 

Radhe Radhe

 

I think the point we are forgetting is that even Bhaktivinode Thakur had said that Gaudiya Vaishnavas were meant to be ekantic sadhaks/bhaktas, meaning being one-pointed in their devotion to their ista devas.

 

A very long thread has discussed the Jesus-Vaishnav link or no link, I wont drag that debate again. Dark warrior , Raghu, Tackleberry, Shvu gave a very convincing, very intelligent, very logical, wholistic look of Jesus's place in GVism and Vedic based philosophy. Even Hari Bhakti Vilas by Srila Sanatan Goswami defines what a Vaishnava means, so I need not say more.

 

To those who say there is a convincing link, to me, are buddhists, (all is one, one is all) and additionally are bordering on the position of political correctness.

 

To Bija

Be careful what you write sometimes, people might just call your bluff!

The hidden and unexamined premise is that Christianity is an alternative to Vaisnavism. That one is not being 'one-pointed' if one includes Christianity under the umbrella of GV. There are many flavors of GV and Vaisnavism.

I don't want to call them sects but essentially they are because of the differences in understanding. All the so-called Vaisnavas, for instance, who categorically disagree with Prabhupada and by implication his spiritual master on critical points of sidddhanta , such as falldown and demigod worship, have taken an exclusive stance.

Vaisnavism is NOT a religious practice. It is not a sect. It is universal. Bhaktivinode Thakur has made this very clear in several instances. He catalogued so many religious practices, such as wearing tilak, in the same list as baptism. He was supremely non-sectarian.

[bija]

I think the point we are forgetting is that even Bhaktivinode Thakur had said that Gaudiya Vaishnavas were meant to be ekantic sadhaks/bhaktas, meaning being one-pointed in their devotion to their ista devas. malati

This is such an essential point Malati. I used to have a picture of Jesus on my altar, the first picture I have had since a child. Over time the inner dimension of bhakti yoga develops and I no longer have that picture on the altar, the altar has transformed into an expression of what is developing in the heart.

 

But this one pointedness is a gradual unfoldment for some, and that is what I think Srila Prabhupada and others have given space for. some devotees may fully renounce others may be gradual, its a personal growth thing isnt it. Any extremes or criticism's are a little premature sometimes in spiritual life I feel.

 

To Bija

Be careful what you write sometimes, people might just call your bluff! Malati

I am easy going, and no intellectual. People can call my bluff anytime and if it purifies my hard hearted ego all the better. Simple things for simple folk.

[cbrahma]

The point that you have to give up Christianity to practice Vaisnavism labors under the misconception that Vaisnavism is a religion - or that Christianity is a religion, for that matter.

That is the essential point.

[bija]

Exactly cbrahma giving up things is a misconception. For example taking Jesus off my altar is not giving up or rejecting, or disrespecting Jesus. Its a heart thing and consciousness thing, very internal and very personal. If Jesus is on the periphary of my consciousness these days it does not mean he does not reside in the heart. That would be like saying Jesus does not exist in vaikuntha or the absolute truth. There is no need to give up or change designation...there is no conversion! Just a progressive development and awakening of one's heart.

 

I was born catholic and taught such ways....but the heart is different to that birth and designation.

 

I still stand by my point strongly, those who degrade Jesus are talking loosely of a devotee. And may hold sectarian anarthas in their heart, even though proclaming transcendentalism or vaisnavism.

 

As we all know Jesus is not christianity just like Krsna is not gaudiya vaisnavism. The transcendental is not the earth plane...but....the absolute truth is everything.

 

anarthas: unecessary things (unecessary for bhakti)

'if one offers me a leaf with pure devotion, I will accept it'

the aspiration is to attain that untainted devotion.

[cbrahma]

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=10 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=titlestory width=329>SRILA BHAKTIVINODA THAKUR ABOUT SECTARIANISM

by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur

 

 

</TD></TR><TR><TD class=maintext>Sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. When acaryas first ascertain and instruct the Truth, it is not polluted with sectarianism. But the rules and regulations received through disciplic succession regarding the goal and the method of achieving it are changed in due course of time according to the mentality and locale of the people. A rule that is followed by one society is not necessarily accepted in another society. That is why one community is different from another. As a community gradually develops more respect for its own standards, it develops hatred towards other communities and considers their standards inferior. These sectarian symptoms are seen in all countries since time immemorial. This is prominent amongst neophytes and found to some extent amongst madhyama-adhikaris. Amongst uttama-adhikaris, however, there is no trace of sectarianism. Adherence to a particular standard is the prominent symptom of a society. There are three types of standards—alocakagata, alocanagata and alocyagata. Alocakagata is when sectarianists accept some external signs. Examples of alocakagata are tilaka, neck beads, saffron robes, and the baptism that is practiced abroad. The different activities practiced in the process of worship are called alocanagata. Examples of alocanagata are sacrifices, austerities, fire sacrifices, vows, studying scriptures, deity worship, constructing temples, respecting the purity of various trees and rivers, dressing like sannyasis, acting like acaryas, dressing like brahmacaris or grhasthas, closing one's eyes, respecting particular types of books, rules and regulations in eating, and respecting the purity of particular times and places. The examples of alocyagata are attributing personalism or impersonalism on the Supreme Lord, installing deities, exhibiting the mood of an incarnation of the Lord, speculating on heaven and hell, and describing the future destination of the soul. The different forms of these spiritual activities create divisions of sectarianism. Differences that arise from places, times, languages, behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are incorporated within people's spiritual practices and gradually make one community so completely different from another community that even the consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist. Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing on another. When an ass-like mentality becomes prominent within the kanishta-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels; rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level. Madhyama-adhikaris do not quarrel so much about external standards, but they are always attacked by philosophical disagreements. Sometimes they condemn the standards as superior. They condemn the neophytes' deity worship in order to establish the worship-able Lord as formless. In such cases, they are also considered ass-like people. Otherwise, if they had a swanlike mentality and a desire to attain a higher level, they would respect others' practices and inquire about higher topics. Contradictions actually arise only due to ass-like mentality. Swanlike persons consider the necessity for different practices to one's qualification, so they are naturally detached from sectarian quarrels. In this regard, it should be understood that both ass-like and swanlike people are found amongst the kanishta-adhikaris and madhyama-adhikaris. Source: Sri Krishna-samhita

 

 

 

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The mudha (ass) is sectarian.

[bija]

To those who say there is a convincing link, to me, are buddhists, (all is one, one is all) and additionally are bordering on the position of political correctness. by malati

In regards to political correctness even Srila Prabhupada uses the below verse in some recorded talks in reference and example about how to approach others in the preaching field. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta used to use this verse as an example also as far as I know.

 

So political correctness is acceptable sometimes if it can raise the awareness and station of the listener. Srila Prabodananda Saraswati is doing this very thing in this verse.

 

So yes Srila Prabhupada was smart applying intelligence when talking to a christian audience, but also blunt when it came to things that are blocks or offences to Sri Krsna.

Sri Caitanya candramrta by Srila Prabhodananda Saraswati Thakura

Verse 90: How to preach Lord Gauranga's Holy Name...

dante nidhaya trinakam padayor nipatya

kritva ca kaku-shatam etad aham bravimi

he sadhavah sakalam eva vihaya durad

gauranga-candra-carane kurutanuragam (90)

Explanatory Translation:

Verse 90: "I humbly take a piece of straw between my teeth and praise you while falling down and beseechingly clasping your feet. Oh Sir, you are such a great and brilliant man, there is no one greater than you, you are so intelligent, rich and beautiful. I earnestly adore and applaud your good qualities hundreds of times. You may ask me, 'Why are you so humble? Why are you flattering me? What is your intention, tell me?' I reply: 'My dear Sir, you are a great sadhu and gentleman. You have learned and been educated in so many nice things, I know, but reject them please, whatever unwanted and hogwash things are there in your brain, please kick them out, throw them far away and direct all your love and affection to the the most merciful Lord Gaurangachandra and His Holy Name and in this way become an ardent devotee of His lotus feet. This will be the supreme perfection of your life."

[bija]

The mudha (ass) is sectarian. by cbrahma

Its definately not soothing to call people ass's. But the ass sure does carry heavy loads. This late 19th century Indian english is fun;)

 

Its interesting sectarianism is considered a 'by-product' by Thakura (I like that wordage). In today's 21st century we seem to be smart enough to use by-products as an eco-friendly resource, to heal mother earth. Like wise the by-product of sectarianism pollutes everything! How can we recycle that by product?

[cbrahma]

Prabhupada used 'mudha' with impunity in his preaching.

He was not given to pandering.

[bija]

Prabhupada used 'mudha' with impunity in his preaching.

He was not given to pandering. cbramha

Yep.

 

And several other indian men (and others) have used various colloquial's on this forum over the last weeks when conversing to' fellow audaryians'.

 

These words like mudha, mllecha, karmi are examples really in a way of what Bhaktivinoda is pointing to in your above post. In Australia we also have words and things that have formed over time. If I went around town here calling people ass's their minds would not even think of a 'donkey' (and its inner meaning of a heavy load carrier with not much intelligence)...but something else...

 

 

I would be better calling them a 'great galah', then they would understand. Oh and a 'galah' is generally a 'light' term for a 'silly bugger'.

 

The different forms of these spiritual activities create divisions of sectarianism. Differences that arise from places, times, languages, behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are incorporated within people's spiritual practices and gradually make one community so completely different from another community that even the consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist. Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing on another. When an ass-like mentality becomes prominent within the kanishta-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels; rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level. Bhaktivinoda

[cbrahma]

I don't presume to have the authority to use such strong language since I'm not acarya. But when a great Vaisnava like Bhaktivinode uses it and uses it for a very specific reason - such as the stupidity of sectarianism - and how it is un-Vaisnava and destructive, I have no problem quoting him.