Jesus and Krishna

[cbrahma]

 

Respected Cbrahma,

 

I fully accept with Dark Warrior.

I would request you to pls go thru the literature of Sri Sampradaya.It will clear all your doubts.

Secondly Christianity can't be equated with Vaishnavism.

I dont think Christians worship Shreeman Narayan, the supreme authority.This is the first requirement to become Vaishnava.

Even worshippers of Lord Shiva can't be categorised as vaishnava.

Hence I would request you not to indulge further in debate.With debate nothing can be achieved.Only thru Bhakti of Shreeman Narayan we can have peace of mind which is recommended by all the scriptures & acharyas.

 

This are my views. I am sorry if i have offended you.

 

Pranaam

Your views don't offend me. They're your views. I don't see any proof that Christianity is incompatible with Vaisnavism.

[cbrahma]

 

Ever heard of the invasion of Srirangam, when 13000 Sri Vaishnavas were beheaded by the barbarian hordes of Malik Kafur?

 

Islam is not Vaishnavism, moron. Sri Madhvacharya did indeed talk to a muslim King about everyone being children of the same God. But that does not mean he validated Islam. Just like Vishnu alone grants the prayers of even Shaivites, he does so for Christians.

 

Pillai Lokacharya and Vedanta Desikar had to hide among dead bodies and rescue children from barbarians who wanted to convert Sri Vaishnavas by sword. Since they were unsuccessful, they simply killed all the people there.

 

You dare call Islam or Christianity Vaishnavism? Christianity has done damage in another way...missionaries like Max Muller gave out perverted meanings of sastras and deluded many hindus.

 

 

 

Let me see:

 

1) Love thy neighbour. Turn the other cheek.

 

Oh wait, Lord Buddha already said it 500 years before Jesus. Buddhists are not accepted as Vaishnavas, are they?

 

2) Do not kill, blah blah.

 

Again, Mahavira, the Jain teacher preceded Jesus on this one. Tell me, are Jains Vaishnavas?

 

3) Love God, worship him.

 

Shaivites score on this one. So, are Shaivites Vaishnavas? And please tell me, is there any proof to show that Jesus was talking about Vishnu and not Shiva.

 

Idiot. I see no connection.

 

cBrahma blindly quotes Bhaktivinode without understanding. Its true that every Jiva is innately a Vaishnava because Sriman Narayana is alone the Supreme Lord for all. But since they follow different faiths deluded by maya, these faiths cannot be Vaishnavism.

 

'The external symbols' that Bhaktivinode was talking about is this - Discard Christianity, Islam and all the inadequate external religions and follow your true identity - Vaishnavism.

 

As for Srila Prabhupada, he was simply calling Jesus an avatar for conversion purposes. logically, it is proven as follows:

 

Since Jesus as avatar isn't sastras, we have to say that either Prabhupada was mistaken, or he was just appeasing christians. Since Prabhupada is an acharya, we can assume the latter, because that wouldn't necessitate us to believe that he was wrong.

 

Keep ducking the issue cBrahma. Read guladitya's posts. Exactly WHAT MAKES CHRISTIANITY COMPATIBLE WITH VAISHNAVISM WHEN SHAIVISM ISN'T?

 

Pathetic display of ignorance by cBrahma. He says I am a 'caste conscious brahmin' without knowing that many Sri Vaishnava acharyas are not even Brahmins!! We worship anyone who is a devotee of Vishnu. No caste differences here.

 

And he says, my devotion is just bookish knowledge!! I see, so basically, Sri Ramayana and mahabharata are useless books. I wonder why our acharyas had to commentate on them then? Because according to cBrahma, one can understand Hari without the scripture.

 

This is partly true, but it is possible only for those who have a high level of jnana and capabilities of doing many upasanas. Since we lack that, we can only understand Him by referring to the works of our realised acharyas and rishis.

 

Your logic is - some non-Vaisnava cults say the same thing as Christianity, therefore Christianity is non-Vaiisnava. This is NOT logical.

 

Vaisnavas also say to love God and be tolerant - Buddhist do not say to love god BTW, because they don't believe in god - they are atheists.

 

Cows and horses breath like humans do, so humans are cows and horses.

[bija]

On the subject of incompatibility of christianity and vaisnavism, and coconuts:

 

I guess there is no compatibility between a kalpa-vriksha tree and the tree of life, or 'give us our daily bread' either?

 

But what we could all possibly agree on is.... 'knowledge of good and evil-tree' sure has caused us some misery.

 

 

Vaishnavism has more inner meanings that need to be discovered. amlesh

I agree with Amlesh here. There is much more inner meanings, even in christianity than most of us may be aware of (dark warrior).

 

If we could perceive the inner meanings of the hearts of those who love God, there may be much compatibility.

 

And if we can't find compatibility then our fallen condition is the common factor.

[cbrahma]

 

Respected Cbrahma,

 

As per Padma purana, any one who tries to equate Lord Brahma & Lord Shiva to Lord Narayana is an atheist.Lord Brahma & Lord Shiva are ansh of Lord Naryana. When they cant be equated how can we equate Lord Narayana to Jesus.Hence Christanity is not compatible with Vaishnavism & it will be offence if we try to equate it.

Hence there is no point to further continue this debate.

 

Pranaam

What are you talking about? How can you make such an inference that I have equated Brahma and Shiva to Visnu?

Your logic is amazingly twisted.

[cbrahma]

 

Pathetic display of ignorance by cBrahma. He says I am a 'caste conscious brahmin' without knowing that many Sri Vaishnava acharyas are not even Brahmins!! We worship anyone who is a devotee of Vishnu. No caste differences here.

 

 

Your contintual book-dropping, elitist arrogance, and contemptuous use of words like 'mleccha' is typical of caste brahmin.

It is not typical of Vaisnavism. I am not confusing you with acaryas nor do I need you to explain Bhaktivinode Thakur's very clear statements which he has made in many contexts on the subject of Christianity.

[cbrahma]

 

All that you've said is logical Dark Warrior. But ask yourself these questions:

1. Do you think that Vedanta Deshikar ever despised those Barbarians even though He had to hide among dead bodies...

2. Do you think Jesus Christ ever had any hatred for those who crucified Him?

3. Do you think M.K.Gandhi had any grudge against the British though they despised Him?

4. Do you think Madhavacharya felt annoyed when no one could understand His teachings?

 

Well, we don't need to climb on coconut tree to get the answer. I do understand your points, but Vaishnavism has more inner meanings that need to be discovered.

What he is says in not logical.

At no point have I tried to say Jesus is a Vaisnava. I have asked and I guess this is too subtle for his advanced mind, how is Christianity incompatible with Vaisnavism. How is it a disqualification for that spiritual path?

[Dark Warrior]

 

Your logic is - some non-Vaisnava cults say the same thing as Christianity, therefore Christianity is non-Vaiisnava. This is NOT logical.

 

No, the logic lies in the fact that Jesus's teachings can be found ANYWHERE. Herein lies your ignorance. It isn't universality, but ambiguity.

 

The fundamentals of living, such as vegetarianism and goodwill are mentioned in the Prasthna Trayam (Upanishads, Brahma Sutras and bhagavad Gita). But these texts also point out that these are only rudimentary and do not make one a Vaishnava.

 

A person who has morals but no jnana is useless.

 

One needs to go to the temple and the archa avatara should be regarded as the Lord Himself.

 

Jesus preaching simple moral values are not enough. A Vaishnava is one who knows the Lord with 4 hands, chakra, conch, and ornaments. He only worships Vishnu.

 

The Shiva Purana contains all the morals of Jesus. Yet, it is classed as non-vaishnavite.

 

Jesus simply did not mention who his god was. Indra, Shiva, Agni, or Vishnu? You tell me.

 

 

Vaisnavas also say to love God and be tolerant - Buddhist do not say to love god BTW, because they don't believe in god - they are atheists.

 

Shaivites protect cows, love God, are tolerant and wish well for everybody. They are not Vaishnavas. Why do you keep evading it?

 

There is also a theistic devotional sect of Buddhism called Mahayana Buddhism.

 

 

Cows and horses breath like humans do, so humans are cows and horses.

 

Clearly proves my point. Say, Christianity is the cow and Vaishnavism is the human. Both breathe, so are both compatible?

 

 

How can you make such an inference that I have equated Brahma and Shiva to Visnu?

 

Moron, consider this:

 

1) By your logic, Christianity is also similar to Shaivism because both have love of God and morals.

 

2) Shaivism is incompatible with Vaishnavism.

 

So, how is Christianity compatible with Vaishnavism?

 

The God of Jesus can be anybody.

[Dark Warrior]

 

All that you've said is logical Dark Warrior. But ask yourself these questions:

1. Do you think that Vedanta Deshikar ever despised those Barbarians even though He had to hide among dead bodies...

2. Do you think Jesus Christ ever had any hatred for those who crucified Him?

3. Do you think M.K.Gandhi had any grudge against the British though they despised Him?

4. Do you think Madhavacharya felt annoyed when no one could understand His teachings?

 

Well, we don't need to climb on coconut tree to get the answer. I do understand your points, but Vaishnavism has more inner meanings that need to be discovered.

 

1) No, but Desikar certainly didn't say Islam is Vaishnavism. Heck, he demolished 72 different Vedic Religions as invalid.

 

2) Who really cares? There are shaivites who plucked their eyes out for Shiva. They are not Vaishnavas.

 

3) Gandhi was a double dealing politician.

 

4) What has that got to do with the topic?

[Dark Warrior]

 

Your contintual book-dropping, elitist arrogance, and contemptuous use of words like 'mleccha' is typical of caste brahmin.

It is not typical of Vaisnavism. I am not confusing you with acaryas nor do I need you to explain Bhaktivinode Thakur's very clear statements which he has made in many contexts on the subject of Christianity.

 

You are a mleccha. That is because your retarded beliefs are not supported by any Vaishnavas except converts like Theist.

 

Barring 20th century acharyas, noone has equated Christianity with Vaishnavism.

 

I repeat, Jesus' teachings can be found in ANY religion. But our Vaishnavite scriptures clearly say that mere devotion in a god and morals CANNOT give one moksha. Knowledge that Sri Hari is supreme is what makes one a Vaishnava.

 

You said there were 'enlightened' Christians. How can they be enlightened when they had no jnana at all?

 

Mystics like St. John of the Cross could only think of God reverentially, and hence, he falls short of even the average Vaishnava. As far as the Gnostic sect is concerned, it is crude advaita.

[Dark Warrior]

Again, for cBrahma's benefit,

 

Jesus preached renunciation and morals. These are found in all religions. So, one can say Christianity is Shaktism, Shaivism, Ganapatya, etc.

 

But our Acharyas have clearly stated that Shaktism, Shaivism and Ganapatya are incompatible with Vaishnavism.

 

Therfore, Christianity is incompatible with Vaishnavism.

 

Now, if Jesus had specifically mentioned that his god was Hari, it would have been different.

 

And btw, Buddhists and Jains even accept the sanctity of the syllable 'OM'. Therfore, they are indirectly addressing Krishna (AUM is Krishna, Lakshmi and Jiva). Christians do not even have 'OM' as a mantra.

 

Thus, the Buddhist is much more closer to Vedanta than a Christian.

[bija]

You are a mleccha. That is because your retarded beliefs are not supported by any Vaishnavas except converts like Theist. by dark

Man that is a full on statement. The soul cannot be converted. Bodily identification talk...no wonder there is so much fighting in the name of God.

 

Sad times indeed, then again history has proved sectarianism to be a huge problem for humanity. When words like mleccha are used in a racist sense it is awful, and may even offend a vaisnava born in the west as inferior. Ofcourse the vaisnava is never offended.

 

Sorry Dark, can you cool it down a bit please.

[Dark Warrior]

In another post, cBrahma had said that temple worship is an external symbol.

 

Is this nutter aware of what the archa avatara is? There are four types of deities:

 

1) Some of them are self-manifested without human intervention. Srirangam, Tirupati, etc.

 

2) Some deities are consecrated by devas.

 

3) Some deities are consecrated by rishis.

 

4) Some are consecrated by man.

 

Sri Ranganatha was brought to Srirangam by Vibhishana himself. The archa form is the LORD'S AVATAR. Christian churches are not consecrated as per the Agamas. Therfore, they are not 'transcedental', to use your word.

[Dark Warrior]

 

You are a mleccha. That is because your retarded beliefs are not supported by any Vaishnavas except converts like Theist. by dark

 

Man that is a full on statement. The soul cannot be converted. Bodily identification talk...no wonder there is so much fighting in the name of God.

 

Not bodily identification. He is a jiva caught by maya.

 

A mleccha is one who distorts Vaishnavism. Exactly what cBrahma is doing.

 

 

Sad times indeed, then again history has proved sectarianism to be a huge problem for humanity. When words like mleccha are used in a racist sense it is awful, and may even offend a vaisnava.

 

Sorry Dark, can you cool it down a bit please.

 

Weren't you a Christian as well? Figures...first, learn what 'sectarian' really means and then come.

[Amlesh]

 

1) No, but Desikar certainly didn't say Islam is Vaishnavism. Heck, he demolished 72 different Vedic Religions as invalid.

 

2) Who really cares? There are shaivites who plucked their eyes out for Shiva. They are not Vaishnavas.

 

3) Gandhi was a double dealing politician.

 

4) What has that got to do with the topic?

 

1. It's not surprising because Vedas were already defined by Krishna as Pushpitam Vaacham, but it does not mean we should despise it.

 

2. I do care, Krishna does care, and the dear most devotee of Krishna (Lord Shiva cares). How can you obtain the mercy of Krishna if you don't care about His devotees.

 

3. So easily said about the one who took the name of Ram on his lips before dying.

 

4. Many things, you just don't want to see.

[Tirisilex]

I find it interesting that Darkwarrior picked this as his name.. I think It suits him VERY well..

 

Again I will try once more.. This time with the utmost love and hope

 

PLEASE think about this.. I am begging you to compare it to what you are Professing here..

 

If you truely Believe in the Gita that means you dont reject it's teachings..

Think about what I had posted last time.. Think about The Universal Form..

Think about what it means That Krishna gives those sufficient faith to worship the demigods.. Think about what it means to see Krishna in EVERYTHING..

You keep professing that you believe this but your fruits say otherwise..

[Dark Warrior]

 

1. It's not surprising because Vedas were already defined by Krishna as Pushpitam Vaacham, but it does not mean we should despise it.

 

2. I do care, Krishna does care, and the dear most devotee of Krishna (Lord Shiva cares). How can you obtain the mercy of Krishna if you don't care about His devotees.

 

3. So easily said about the one who took the name of Ram on his lips before dying.

 

4. Many things, you just don't want to see.

 

1) I do not despise Christianity. I have Christian friends. I despise people who try to link Christianity with Vaishnavism.

 

2) Please provide me with a pramana that says Jesus was a devotee of Krishna.

 

3) Theatrics.

 

4) Very deep. How about some substance next time?

[bija]

Weren't you a Christian as well? Figures...first, learn what 'sectarian' really means and then come. dark

I was born into a catholic family, unfortunately the family never understood the essence of their faith, and also years ago they considered other religions as false.

 

As a small child (between 5 and 8) I used to feel bliss in church and swoon and feel much love for God. My brother used to hit me in church, 'stop swooning, you are embarrassing', he would say.

 

As that young innocence was lost I also took on board the sectarian thinking of my family, until about the age of 16 to 20. Then I left and travelled looking for God due to great disatisfaction with my culture, materialism, its ideals etc.

 

I found Hare Krsna's over seas and they made me dance one morning in front of Tulasi Devi. As we chanted the names of God and walked around tulasi I entered a trance, and the room filled with golden light. The saffron monks all turned glowing white in pristine robes. And I saw myself and how sinful I had been. Tears flowed from my eyes. I was too young to know what all this meant.

 

That was 16 years ago. Now I long for love and long for Krsna, to feel the hairs stand on end and tears flow, when I see his form or hear his name, or think of his great love for all.

 

I am a mleccha. At one point my government made me work in an abattoirs, killing 3000 animals including cows per day. I have not worked since.

 

But Bhakti devi does not discriminate her lavish gifts, even a christian can feel bhava, or at least a glimpse.

[Dark Warrior]

 

I find it interesting that Darkwarrior picked this as his name.. I think It suits him VERY well..

 

Haha...if you listen to Metal, yes, it is a good name.

 

 

 

 

If you truely Believe in the Gita that means you dont reject it's teachings..

Think about what I had posted last time.. Think about The Universal Form..

Think about what it means That Krishna gives those sufficient faith to worship the demigods.. Think about what it means to see Krishna in EVERYTHING..

You keep professing that you believe this but your fruits say otherwise..

 

Sarva Dharman Parityajya MAM EKAM Saranam Vraja,

Aham Tva Sarva Papebhyo Mokshayisyami Masuchaha.

 

Only him. Krishna clearly says that even worship of devas is not going to give one moksha.

 

Which means, Shaivites and Shaktas who pursue Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, etc. are not following the right path.

 

Christian devotion cannot even compare to the intense Bhakti of Shaivites and Shaktas. And Christianity lacks a basic knowledge of even the most elementary Brahma Vidyas. Furthermore, the god of the Christians may be anybody.

 

Thus, logically, Christianity is to be rejected by Vaishnavas.

[Tirisilex]

I find it interesting that Darkwarrior picked this as his name.. I think It suits him VERY well..

 

Again I will try once more.. This time with the utmost love and hope

 

PLEASE think about this.. I am begging you to compare it to what you are Professing here..

 

If you truely Believe in the Gita that means you dont reject it's teachings..

Think about what I had posted last time.. Think about The Universal Form..

Think about what it means That Krishna gives those sufficient faith to worship the demigods.. Think about what it means to see Krishna in EVERYTHING..

You keep professing that you believe in the teachings of the Gita but your fruits say otherwise..

[Dark Warrior]

 

Weren't you a Christian as well? Figures...first, learn what 'sectarian' really means and then come. dark

 

I was born into a catholic family, unfortunately the family never understood the essence of their faith, and also years ago they considered other religions as false.

 

As a small child I used to feel bliss in church and swoon and feel much love for God. my brother used to hit me in church, 'stop swooning, you are embarrassing', he would say.

 

As that young innocence was lost I also took on board the sectarian thinking of my family, until about the age of 16 to 20. Then I left and travelled looking for God due to great disatisfaction with my culture, materialism, its ideals etc.

 

I found Hare Krsna's over seas and they made me dance one morning in front of Tulasi Devi. As we chanted the names of God and walked around tulasi I entered a trance, and the room filled with golden light. The saffron monks all turned glowing white in pristine robes. And I saw myself and how sinful I had been. Tears flowed from my eyes. I was too young to know what all this meant.

 

That was 16 years ago. Now I long for love and long for Krsna, to feel the hairs stand on end and tears flow, when I see his form or hear his name, or think of his great love for all.

 

I am a mleccha. At one point my government made me work in an abattoirs, killing 3000 animals including cows per day. I have not worked since.

 

But Bhakti devi does not discriminate her lavish gifts, even a christian can feel bhava, or at least a glimpse.

 

Dude, you are not a mleccha if you have accepted Vaishnavism as it is. Nor am I callig cBrahma a mleccha for his beliefs.

 

If anyone believes Christianity is compatible with Vaishnavism, fine. Your belief. But what makes him a mleccha is the fact that he attempts to make it look like this is the most logical path and that anyone who doesn't follow it is not a Vaishnava.

 

That makes him a mleccha.

 

Mystical experiences can happen in any faith. But again, it isn't due to the validity of the faith, but because Sriman Narayana simply chooses a Jiva randomly and gives him some 'bliss'.

 

St.John of the Cross was not a jnani. But his experience was due to Narayana giving him what he was trying to achieve mystically - some sort of bliss.

 

Of course, St. john will think his experiences are due to his belief in Jesus. But in reality, it is Narayana.

 

And this means, its imperfect jnana no matter what the experience.

 

EDIT: By the way, I am a microbiologist. I have had to dissect rabbits and rats. How do you think I feel?

 

Everyone has their problems.

[bija]

The Lord even gives us intelligence Dark. All things come from God. Disability, health, wisdom, prosperity....bhakti. Gradually he allows, as the super soul, for all our desires to manifest. It is his kindness, to teach us, gently and slowly so that we can choose love freely.

 

When we call people morons we are actually calling God's wisdom and design moronic. Instead if we give space to time, and wisdom that is inherent in God's manifestation, before our eyes, we may eventually heal from our judgments of others, which are really just judgements of ourselves.

[Tirisilex]

The Reason why Jesus didnt use any names of the Vedas was because he wasnt communicating to people who were at all aware of the things of the Vedas.. If had used these terms They would have stoned him dead and about 5 minutes.. Remember these people would go out of their way just to kill a harlot.. Instead of trying to help her.. I mean they Killed him for saying that he was the son of God.. His message would have never been heard in the west if he professed eastern names..

[cbrahma]

 

In another post, cBrahma had said that temple worship is an external symbol.

 

Is this nutter aware of what the archa avatara is? There are four types of deities:

 

1) Some of them are self-manifested without human intervention. Srirangam, Tirupati, etc.

 

2) Some deities are consecrated by devas.

 

3) Some deities are consecrated by rishis.

 

4) Some are consecrated by man.

 

Sri Ranganatha was brought to Srirangam by Vibhishana himself. The archa form is the LORD'S AVATAR. Christian churches are not consecrated as per the Agamas. Therfore, they are not 'transcedental', to use your word.

 

 

Sri Jiva Gosvami: Because the kanistha-adhikari's faith is not actually based on the statements of the Vedic literature he cannot understand the exalted position of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, seated as Supersoul in everyone's heart. The essential qualification of a Vaisnava, which is to offer all respects to others, is conspicuous by it's absence in a kanistha adhikari. When one climbs to the Madhyama or second class platform he is able to understand the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, while the kanistha adhikaris entire knowledge of the Lord is limited to the Deity. [sB. cant 11, ch. 2 text 47]<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P> </O:P>

 

[Dark Warrior]

 

The Lord even gives us intelligence Dark. All things come from God. Disability, health, wisdom, prosperity....bhakti. Gradually he allows, as the super soul, for all our desires to manifest. It is his kindness, to teach us, gently and slowly so that we can choose love freely.

 

When we call people morons we are actually calling God's wisdom and design moronic. Instead if we give space to time, and wisdom that is inherent in God's manifestation, before our eyes, we may eventually heal from our judgments of others, which are really just judgements of ourselves.

 

On the contrary, cBrahma has just brilliantly pointed out that those who think Jesus is incompatible with Vaishnavism are Pseudovaishnavas. This means, 99.99% of traditional Vaishnavas are pseudo-, according to him.

 

His major argument is, 'Srila Prabhupada and Sri Bhaktivinode Thakura said so'. However, I have provided sufficient proof from sastra to show that it isn't supported.

 

He calls us 'pseudo'. I have been kinder and called him a moron.

[Dark Warrior]

Because the kanistha-adhikari's faith is not actually based on the statements of the Vedic literature he cannot understand the exalted position of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, seated as Supersoul in everyone's heart. The essential qualification of a Vaisnava, which is to offer all respects to others, is conspicuous by it's absence in a kanistha adhikari. When one climbs to the Madhyama or second class platform he is able to understand the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, while the kanistha adhikaris entire knowledge of the Lord is limited to the Deity.

 

Right. That applies to all atheists, agnostics, buddhists, etc.

 

But note this:

 

1) Jiva Goswami was clear that the God in everyone's hearts is Krishna.

 

2) Christians do not accept that Krishna is in their heart.

 

Get the picture?

 

And who said my realisation is limited to the deity in temples?

 

The antaryami Lord (indweller) has been shown to be an amazing avatar by none other than the great Sri Vaishnava, Thirumazhisai Alvar. He used to talk to his indwelling Lord, and once, the Lord actually manifested from His heart.

 

I have named my antaryami 'Hrishikesa'. My acharya recommended it. Like it?

 

And another thing, it is Gaudiya Vaishnavism that may not lay stress on archa avatara...

 

Sri Vaishnavism holds that the archa form of the Lord is greater than all the avatars put together. We dress Him, bathe Him, and enjoy His beauty. Some avatars in temples are self-manifested.

 

This shows that you have no knowledge of other sampradayas.