How have we fallen in this material world?

[krsna]

figure that one out and then the rest is detail....

[cbrahma]

not this pointless topic again. Who cares how we got here. The point is to get out.

[suchandra]

"So this theory, that the world is going automatically or we have come into this material world without any reason, without any cause… Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. They say, the rascals say, that our coming to this material world is to the lusty desires of the father and mother. Therefore the child has no meaning. It is a by-product of the lusty desire. So if I don’t want it, kill it. Destroy it. This is going on.......The cause was there. The cause was there that because we wanted to enjoy and did not like to serve Krishna. This is the cause. Krishna-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare. We are serving Krishna. That is our, I mean to say, place, constitutional position, to serve Krishna, but sometimes we desire: “Why shall I serve Krishna? Why shall I serve the spiritual master? I shall enjoy. I shall enjoy.” But that enjoyment was there by serving Krishna, but he wanted to become enjoyer independent of Krishna. That is the cause of falldown. With Krishna, you can enjoy very nicely. You have seen the picture, how with Krishna the gopīs are nicely dancing, enjoying; the cowherd boys are playing. Enjoy with Krishna, that is your real enjoyment. But without Krishna, when you want to enjoy, that is māyā."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 2.8.7

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Los Angeles, February 10, 1975

750210SB.LA

[theist]

OMG krsna how bored are you this morning? Go take a walk or watch a movie, anything but this.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

I remember one Prabhupada disciple telling me how he knew that in his previous life he had parents who were demi-gods. I had one where I had parents who were demi-gods but i was an asura. Prabiupada was from Goloka yet He came here in this World, He did'nt fall. SO i guess we dont fall from Goloka but from somewhere else. If you say we fell from Goloka then you would have to be a pure devotee, as only pure devotees exist in Goloka.

[Avinash]

Is Golok a black hole? After all, nothing can come out of a black hole too.

I have seen this topic so many times that I thought of having some fun.

[Vigraha]

 

I remember one Prabhupada disciple telling me how he knew that in his previous life he had parents who were demi-gods. I had one where I had parents who were demi-gods but i was an asura. Prabiupada was from Goloka yet He came here in this World, He did'nt fall. SO i guess we dont fall from Goloka but from somewhere else. If you say we fell from Goloka then you would have to be a pure devotee, as only pure devotees exist in Goloka.

 

Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

 

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

 

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

I remember one Prabhupada disciple telling me how he knew that in his previous life he had parents who were demi-gods. I had one where I had parents who were demi-gods but i was an asura. Prabiupada was from Goloka yet He came here in this World, He did'nt fall. SO i guess we dont fall from Goloka but from somewhere else. If you say we fell from Goloka then you would have to be a pure devotee, as only pure devotees exist in Goloka.

 

I clearly recall having read him say that he was a physician of spotless character in his previous life, and that this detail was known on the basis of the Bhrigu-samhita. The descent from Goloka yarn was in fact spun by his disciples, probably when he was still physically present and disproportionately embellished and mythologised after his disappearance.

[Kulapavana]

 

I clearly recall having read him say that he was a physician of spotless character in his previous life, and that this detail was known on the basis of the Bhrigu-samhita. The descent from Goloka yarn was in fact spun by his disciples, probably when he was still physically present and disproportionately embellished and mythologised after his disappearance.

 

as a matter of tradition, disciples in GV sampradayas are encouraged to see their guru as an eternal Krsna's associate, usually a manjari. the external reality is of no importance in that matter, but this view needs to be cultivated in private, not proclaimed to the world.

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura had a very humble view of himself, yet he was seen as a true legend by his followers. Somehow none of the major acharyas in our tradition are seen as sadhana-siddhas by their followers, which is kind of sad, because it reduces the role and importance of achieving perfection by a gradual process. Still, from the external perspective we certainly see all these persons gradually develop spiritually, change, and eventually achieve the perfection after much labor and strife.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Somehow none of the major acharyas in our tradition are seen as sadhana-siddhas by their followers, which is kind of sad, because it reduces the role and importance of achieving perfection by a gradual process. Still, from the external perspective we certainly see all these persons gradually develop spiritually, change, and eventually achieve the perfection after much labor and strife.

 

In fact, I would concur with you on this one. The struggle of a sadhana-siddha is in many respects more admirable, inspiring and emulatable than an already-perfect-guru come down from the spiritual world to herd a group of disciples back to the fair land. This insistence on one's preceptor being a nitya-siddha in certain Gaudiya quarters is irrational, to say the least.

[bhaktajan]

Dear Mr or Mrs. LoveroftheBhagavata,

 

With all due respect for our beloved Leonardo and his achievements --there is a wee imperceptable peepee in your avatara [don't remove it, don't touch it up] just know that it is there--and we will politely ignore its presence.

 

your servant,

Bhaktajan

 

Doing my best to bring a little happiness into the world.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Lol

[Beggar]

Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973

Yet I find it interesting that he didn't use the word originate. How can an eternal being "originate"? Interestingly in the sastra we are told that the jivas originate from the tatastha sakti. Prabhupada stuck to the siddhanta by not using the word originate. But no matter what words you stick to, the reality is not something that can completely be contained by our words in a dualistic language used by conditioned souls. Each angle of vision described in words can be established by logic and defeated by another logic. tarko parthisthanat. Tal fruit and the crow. We can waste our time eternally establishing and defeating all the statements about the soul's origin. The real guru will mention what is said in the sastra briefly but it is all in the context of engaging his disciples in bhajan - practical devotional service. If we have become arm chair philosophers then this is something to lament.

[Vigraha]

 

Interestingly in the sastra we are told that the jivas originate from the tatastha sakti.

 

We can waste our time eternally establishing and defeating all the statements about the soul's origin.

 

The real guru will mention what is said in the sastra briefly but it is all in the context of engaging his disciples in bhajan - practical devotional service.

 

If we have become arm chair philosophers then this is something to lament.

 

Interesting reading however I would just like to make a short comment

 

Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatasthas (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independent and eternally have the free will to accept or reject Krishna. Marginal means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva.

Having choice as a marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha), is what it really means to be in-between the Superior and inferior.

The marginal aspect of the creation is not a place or plain, but rather the individual jiva's who ARE the tatastha s'aktis or 'so called' marginal individual living beings, who can choose to be aware of their eternal bodily identity serving Krishna in Goloka.

 

Or they can forget their eternal identity and only be aware of the restrictions of chasing their own selfish desires, thoughts and imaginary worlds within Maha-Vishnu's temporary DREAM perishable creation of Maha Vishnu known as the mahat-tattva material worlds.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Of cource we came from Vishnu-tattva, and Vishnu is always in the Spiritual World. If we had spiritual bodies in their, and had fallen it would make no sense? Why? Because all fallen or unfallen souls are mentioned in the Scriptures.

[Beggar]

 

The marginal aspect of the creation is not a place or plain, but rather the individual jiva's who ARE the tatastha s'aktis or 'so called' marginal individual living beings,

So by this logic you have defeated the idea of the tatastha being a place or plane, yet your angle of vision is true but can also be defeated by the logic that proves the tatastha is also a place. One angle of vision is from eternity, that the jivas are always existing and the other angle of vision is from the standpoint of being locked into a material time based language.

 

The siddhanta expresses these thoughts through language in a particular way. No one can show where the sastra says that the jivas originate in Goloka for that would imply that Krsna's eternal associates fall down, which would be impudent. Yet when you write:

 

who can choose to be aware of their eternal bodily identity serving Krishna in Goloka.

 

You are expressing a though which is absolutely true as confirmed many times by Srila Prabhupada and I have already shown you this in the Jaiva Dharma. But the real guru is expert at applying these apparently contradictory concepts for the correct time, place and circumstance because he has a mature, developed relationship with Krsna. He is experiencing the real bliss of chanting the holy name of Krsna and we are all hankering after that experience. This is what we are really after, not being right or correct about the origin of the soul question. And besides even if we are correct, it can only be hollow words for us because we are not actually experiencing the spritual reality.

[raghu]

 

not this pointless topic again. Who cares how we got here. The point is to get out.

 

Well if you really don't care, then why are you posting anything in response? At least 'krsna' posted 4 nice pictures of Sri Krishna. You haven't contributed anything other than your pompous attitude that no one should discuss what you aren't comfortable discussing.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Dear Mr or Mrs. LoveroftheBhagavata,

 

With all due respect for our beloved Leonardo and his achievements --there is a wee imperceptable peepee in your avatara [don't remove it, don't touch it up] just know that it is there--and we will politely ignore its presence.

 

your servant,

Bhaktajan

 

Doing my best to bring a little happiness into the world.

 

Well, I happen to find Leo's paintings including this one particularly inspiring. Don't ask me why because I haven't got the time to write a lengthy essay on this. Your avatar on the other hand is one of those comic characters that my 4-year-old finds especially fascinating. Wonder if you like cartoons as well. I do and have no qualms about confessing to that.

[bija]

Bhaktivinoda Thakura had a very humble view of himself, yet he was seen as a true legend by his followers. Somehow none of the major acharyas in our tradition are seen as sadhana-siddhas by their followers, which is kind of sad, because it reduces the role and importance of achieving perfection by a gradual process. Still, from the external perspective we certainly see all these persons gradually develop spiritually, change, and eventually achieve the perfection after much labor and strife. by kula

 

Such a nice realization of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, thx!

 

Here is a short glimpse of the life of Srila Bhaktivinoda from the introduction to 'Sri Bhaktivinoda Vani Vaibhava'. It is a wonderful expression of his life and the journey he took as an example for all us sadhaka's to admire and aspire for.

 

click here

 

If you have not read this, please find the time, it will bring your simple heart joy.

[suchandra]

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura had a very humble view of himself, yet he was seen as a true legend by his followers. Somehow none of the major acharyas in our tradition are seen as sadhana-siddhas by their followers, which is kind of sad, because it reduces the role and importance of achieving perfection by a gradual process. Still, from the external perspective we certainly see all these persons gradually develop spiritually, change, and eventually achieve the perfection after much labor and strife. by kula

 

Such a nice realization of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, thx!

 

Here is a short glimpse of the life of Srila Bhaktivinoda from the introduction to 'Sri Bhaktivinoda Vani Vaibhava'. It is a wonderful expression of his life and the journey he took as an example for all us sadhaka's to admire and aspire for.

 

click here

 

If you have not read this, please find the time, it will bring your simple heart joy.

 

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaḿ sṛjāmy aham

 

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion — at that time I descend Myself." BG 4.7

 

When studying how often Krishna incarnates to correct decay and unrighteousness it should be clear that the material world is a place where conditioned souls have regency and sadhana siddhas are rather rare exceptions. Therefore books like, "The Mahajanas Have Difficulties" are written to say that it is ok when gurus fall down and this is what happens all the time.

 

ISKCON Bangalore Festival

 

 

 

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" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425">

[Vigraha]

 

No one can show where the sastra says that the jivas originate in Goloka for that would imply that Krsna's eternal associates fall down, which would be impudent.

 

Firstly Prabhupada, who gave us the correct teachings of all Vedic knowledge, can -

 

Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973

 

Secondly, you ARE one of Krishnas eternal associates but YOU have forgotten this fact long, long, long ago, this is not easy to understand, this is why Prabhupada has explained it as follows -

 

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya. Actually, you are NOT conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

I recently heard a lecture by Banu Swami in Melbourne Australia, and even he cannot understand that entering Goloka or Vaikuntha, is something to be regained (he was clearly making out the jiva had never previously been with Krishna that implies we come from the impersonal Brahmajyoti) Many cannot understand this word "regained" You are not alone Beggar.

 

Banu Swami could not understand that being a pure devotee is the eternal svarupa of ALL living entities and that IS our eternal constitutional position, it IS something to be regained, remembered, re-established.

 

Banu Swami gave many devotees the wrong understanding that most of us have never been with Krishna and that the 'jiva-soul' has come from the impersonal Brahmajyot and now must earn its right to enter Vaikuntha. This impersonal origins is NOT what Prabhupada has taught us - I did not like this aspect of his class at all even though he is a very learned humble selfless Vaishnava

 

We are already liberated right now, we are with Krishna right now, we just have to REMEMBER who we really are instead of living in our own baddha-jiva imaginary dream creations, Srila Prabhupada is telling us

 

Thirdly, most will never understand this subject no matter how expertise it is written. Without the causeless kindness and mercy of one's Spiritual Master, the origin of the jiva soul will always remain a mystery and hidden secret from them, or maybe the Spiritual Master does not reveal this such knowledge to everyone because it is not nessessary for everyone to know, after all we all have different personal individual relationships with Krishna - Your quote Beggar sums this up,

 

"The real guru is expert at applying these apparently contradictory concepts for the correct time, place and circumstance because he has a mature, developed relationship with Krsna.

 

He is experiencing the real bliss of chanting the holy name of Krsna and we are all hankering after that experience.

 

This is what we are really after, not being right or correct about the origin of the soul question.

 

And besides even if we are correct, it can only be hollow words for us because we are not actually experiencing the spiritual reality".

 

Very well and excellently said Beggar, even Hari Sauri Prabhu (I am presently reading his books and I advice you and everyone else on this web site to get a copy of his Transcendental Diaries if you want to understand the mood of Srila Prabhupada), who I admire as one of Prabhupada's best disciples in understanding his books, would like the way you have explained this.

 

Hari Sauri Prabhu has told the devotees on many occasions over the years, that only our service (Bhakti) and purity can reveal the truth of Krishna Consciousness and not jnan alone

 

And as Beggar also wrote - "And besides even if we are correct, it can only be hollow words for us because we are not actually experiencing the spiritual reality".

 

[bija]

Therefore books like, "The Mahajanas Have Difficulties" are written to say that it is ok when gurus fall down and this is what happens all the time. sucandra

I dont know about this book or these topics Sucandra. Bit isolated from the wider Vaisnava community here. Thx for the video its really beautiful and brings good memories.

[Beggar]

For some the blue words and the red words will appear to be in conflict. Others will see that the "conflict" is built into the dualistic nature of the language itself and actually all these thoughts are in harmony.

Introduction to The Loving Search For the Lost Servant, by Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar-dev Goswami Maharaj:

 

"Why did you stay away? Why have you been living away from home for so long? How was it possible for you? How could you bear My

separation? You left Me, and you have been passing lives after lives without Me? Still, I know what trouble you took to return to Me. You

searched for Me everywhere and went to beg from house to house, and you were chastised by many, ridiculed by many, and you shed

tears for Me. I know all these things. I was with you. And now, after great trouble, you have again come back to Me."

The Lord's Loving Search for His Lost Servants: Great intensity is expressed here in a simple way. It is a mad search - an urgent

campaign. With great earnestness Krsna comes to deliver His lost servants. Krsna comes to take us home.

In Brhad-Bhagavatamrta, it is written that once, as Krsna and the cows were returning from the Vrndavana forest at the end of the day, a boy

had just attained spiritual emancipation and entered Vrndavana as a cowherd boy (sakhya rasa). Seeing His long lost servant, Krsna

embraced him and both of them fainted in ecstasy.

All of Krsna's other cowherd friends were astounded, thinking, "What is this! Krsna has lost His senses by embracing this newcomer? How

is it possible!" Then, as all of the cowherd boys looked on astonished, Balarama came to Krsna's relief and somehow managed to rouse Him.

Then Krsna addressed His friend with great affection: "Why did you stay away? Why have you been living away from home for so long?

How was it possible for you? How could you bear My separation?

You left Me, and you have been passing lives after lives without Me? Still, I know what trouble you took to return to Me. You searched for

Me everywhere, and went to beg from house to house, and you were chastised by many, ridiculed by many, and you shed tears for Me. I

know all these things. I was with you. And now, after great trouble, you have again come back to Me." In this way, Krsna addressed His

long lost servant and welcomed him. And when Krsna returned home, He took the newcomer by His side to take prasadam. In this way, a new recruit is earnestly welcomed by Krsna Himself.

 

[Vigraha]

 

For some the blue words and the red words will appear to be in conflict.:

 

Yeah, I fixed that, the color code I use ir Blue for Krishna, Vishnu tattvas and internal paraphenalla

 

Purple for the marginal living entities or all entities who are not Vishnu tattva

 

Brown for the material energy, mahat-tattva, ethereal vessels, biological vessels and every other kind of vessel within the mahat-tattva or material creation

 

Red should be used for arguments that one does not agree with Any suggestions?

 

There is no qustion about it, we all are the devotee pioneers of the internet

[Kulapavana]

 

For some the blue words and the red words will appear to be in conflict. Others will see that the "conflict" is built into the dualistic nature of the language itself and actually all these thoughts are in harmony.

Introduction to The Loving Search For the Lost Servant, by Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar-dev Goswami Maharaj:

 

at least there is no mention of the long lost servant waking up under some bush in Goloka, from a long maya-slumber, or some other nonsense about the lack of time factor in the spiritual world

 

we were "lost" simply because we chose the material bank of the Viraja River, instead of swimming towards Vaikunthaloka.