How have we fallen in this material world?

[Svarupa]

Our eternal father Krishna, that we ALL long, long, long ago, had memories of always being with, is certainly not a clear bright impersonal light.

It is not only offensive to think that way, but also an insult to the personal form of Krishna that we are eternally with in OUR eternal nitya-siddha bodily form, that we have presently forgot

[Svarupa]

 

looks like the Moron-Express just pulled into the station.. :/

 

When dogs bark, you don't bark with them

 

Ha! Such nonsense fear tactics of being called a moron were used to shut us up for years in the bogus version of ISKCON by the 'proud' so-called guru's and sanyasis of that 'cult' mentality time of imitators pretending to be a version Prabhupada

They also treated us like mushrooms by feeding our brains cow dung to keep us subservient, brain-dead and just do what we tell you to do and think what we tell you to think. In the same way –

Stop believing the nonsense from Sridar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj we originate from a plain sheet of consciousness from the impersonal portion of the Brahmajyoti!!!!!!!!!!

[Beggar]

 

Stop believing the nonsense from Sridar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj we originate from a plain sheet of consciousness from the impersonal portion of the Brahmajyoti!!!!!!!!!!

or else I'll throw a tantrum

[Kulapavana]

 

Stop believing the nonsense from Sridar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj we originate from a plain sheet of consciousness from the impersonal portion of the Brahmajyoti

 

Actually both Sridhar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaja were always very tactful when dealing with Srila Prabhupada, which is not always true for the other side. Srila Prabhupada did not follow the teachings of his own guru and shastras when it came to the issue of the jiva's origin, that is quite obvious to everyone. Yet these two Vaishnavas did not criticize Prabhupada for that, chosing instead to attribute that departure from siddhanta to his particular "preaching strategy" aimed at Westerners. They put the best possible spin on this issue, in order not to shake the faith of Prabhupada's followers in their guru.

 

Srila Prabhupada was often extremely critical towards his godbrothers and as a direct result many of his disciples like your good self became Vaishnava-aparadhis. In their ignorance, they think this is a proper way to act. It is very embarassing to watch such displays.

 

For clarification of language - Moron: A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Actually both Sridhar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaja were always very tactful when dealing with Srila Prabhupada, which is not always true for the other side. Srila Prabhupada did not follow the teachings of his own guru and shastras when it came to the issue of the jiva's origin, that is quite obvious to everyone. Yet these two Vaishnavas did not criticize Prabhupada for that, chosing instead to attribute that departure from siddhanta to his particular "preaching strategy" aimed at Westerners. They put the best possible spin on this issue, in order not to shake the faith of Prabhupada's followers in their guru.

 

Srila Prabhupada was often extremely critical towards his godbrothers and as a direct result many of his disciples like your good self became Vaishnava-aparadhis. In their ignorance, they think this is a proper way to act. It is very embarassing to watch such displays.

 

For clarification of language - Moron: A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education.

 

Extremely apposite, Kulapavanaji. It is to be hoped that Svarupa is in possession of sufficient grey matter to understand and appreciate what you just wrote. I don't think we ought to bank on it, though.

 

Namaskar

[Sarva gattah]

 

Srila Prabhupada did not follow the teachings of his own guru and shastras when it came to the issue of the jiva's origin, that is quite obvious to everyone. .

 

What disgraceful envious nonsense!! PRABHUPADA WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO FOLLOWED HIS SPIRITUAL MASTERS ORDER!! As a result, you know about Krishna. His lazy Godbrothers could not understand the preaching mood of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Lord Caitanya.

 

It is obvious by some of the disrespectful OFFENSIVE comments like the above, there is a polarisation going on. It is now very clear, that not only do genuin devotees have to expose the envious mayavadis, but also those so-called Vaishnavas who have been cheated by the offensive members of the present day impersonally polluted Gaudiya math.

It is therefore very clear, that ISKCON, even with all its pioneering faults or growing pains, is the ONLY bonafide representative of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. As Prabhupada said "None of my Godbrothers are qualified or fit to be GURUS"

Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Madhya 22.10

"Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens

Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that the jivas come under the influence of Maya “only when they forget their natural function as Krsna’s servitors.”

Srila Prabhupada says we have forgotten our relationship as Krsna’s eternal servants, Srimad-Bhagavatam says it, and now we find Bhaktivinoda Thakura saying the same thing. So guru, sastra, and sadhu are in agreement on this fundamental point.

Just as God has His Svarupa Vigraha, so Jiva has eternal chit Vigraha. That chit body is manifested in Vaikuntha. Being in material world, it is hidden under two coverings . . . . The conceit [the dictionary meaning of conceit is “thought”] of chit body of Jiva, which was existent prior to its contact with matter, is just and natural. But after the contact with matter, the conceit of self has become foreign and unjust. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, pp. 156-157]

The jiva has chosen to forget that he is the eternal servitor of Krsna; for this fault Maya has tied him at the neck. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, p. 44]

“Jiva takes recourse to chit

i.e. transcendental everlasting time in Vaikuntha”

But many cannot understand distinctly how karma has no beginning. Time pertaining to matter is only material reflection of chit-time and is a material thing suited to the performance of karma. Jiva takes recourse to chit i.e. transcendental everlasting time in Vaikuntha, where there is no past and future; only the present exists.

When Jiva in bondage enters in material time [it] becomes subject to past, future and present and, being server of Trikala, suffers pleasure and pain.

Material time originating from Chit kala and Chit kala having no beginning, the origin of Jiva’s Karma—i.e., aversion to God—is coming even prior to material time. Therefore judged impartially with regard to Jadakala, the root of Karma lies prior to this time and therefore Karma has been designated as Anadi, i.e. without any beginning. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam p. 158]

The reason of the jiva’s bondage is the forgetfulness of his essential svarupa as servant of God. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, p. 160]

“When he forgets Krsna he is averse to serve Krsna”

This translation of the Jaiva Dharma, Bhaktivinoda Thakura quotes Lord Caitanya from Caitanya-caritamrta:

The perpetual nature of a Jiva is the eternal active servant of Krsna as their nitya-siddha-svarupa origin. A Jiva as the nitya-baddha-consciousness exists simultaneously as a separate and non-separated entity.

In other words when one chooses to forget Krsna, one is unwilling to serve Krsna as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha self and therefore it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the selfish nitya-baddha conscious condition to exist.

The nitya-baddha consciousness originates from his nitya-siddha body that has no beginning as it dates perpetually before his nitya-baddha manifestation within the mahat-tattva, divided time and space. (Jaiva Dharma, p. 8)

Srila Prabhupada - "Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition". - Letter, June 13, 1970.

Srila Prabhupada - "The conditioned living being has forgotten his eternal relationship with God and he has mistakenly accepted the temporary place of birth as all-in-all... The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." (Sri Isopanisad 11)

Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and ALL spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]

Srila Prabhupada: "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse. lecture Washington DC Temple 1976

It is sometimes said we are eternally conditioned, but that is only because we cannot trace out the exact moment when we departed from Krsna’s Lila.

By comparing the state of the conditioned soul to a dreaming man Srila Prabhupada implicitly gives an adjustment of the “no one falls from Vaikuntha” statements.

The dreaming man simply thinks he has gone somewhere else. The conditioned soul may think he has left Krsna’s Lila, but actually he is still in touch with Krsna because his perpetual nitya-siddha bodily form is permanently in Goloka. In the same way, we are never out of GOLOKA, but we are just dreaming that we are somewhere in the mahat-tattva or material impermanent creation.

Srila Prabhupada clearly says here we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. (baddha jiva) And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position (nitya-siddha jiva).

There are two conditions or states of consciousness, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha.

The free state of consciousness is eternally in a bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self.

The covered state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is actually the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that forgets their perpetual or endless nitya-siddha bodily self serving Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the mahat-tattva.

This Impersonal inactive condition of consciousness, known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, is also a temporary dreaming dreamless state.

In other words this Impersonal inactive condition of consciousness known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is the temporary dreaming dreamless state of the marginal living entity.

In other words the free state (nitya-siddha) is perpetually with Krishna and the covered state (nitya-baddha) is with either Maha-Vishnu in the impermanent mahat-tattva (material creation), or merged as a dormant state of individual consciousness (only after going through mahat-tattva bodily vessels).

This dormant characteristic of individual consciousness formulates their nitya-baddha perceptiveness appear like a ‘spark of effulgence’ that IS, along with other dormant nitya-baddha consciousnesses, the collective Impersonal feature we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

This is what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti really is – simply the marginal living entities inferior nitya-baddha consciousness existing in a dormant inactive dreamless state of individual awareness.

The safest thing is to follow Srila Prabhupada.

So somebody might say the Sastras and Acaryas say souls are eternally conditioned, but we can always say with complete confidence, yes, that might be true, yet at the same time it can also be said with equal confidence that such souls have forgotten their eternal service to Krishna and thus become conditioned.

The way that the contradiction is resolved, is the way that Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Prabhupada, and others have done, by saying that the conditioning is called nitya, because it took effect outside material time, which is divided into past, present, and future.

Everything said by Srila Prabhupada is completely in line with the parampara system.

 

 

CONCLUSION

 

1. We can confidently say that the soul is constitutionally the eternal servant of Krishna. (Nitya-siddha)

2. The jiva soul has minute independence. (That allows their nitya-baddha consciousness)

3. The jiva soul, although eternally the servant of Krishna, is eternally jiva tatastha that is not a place or plain, but the position of the marginal living entity that means one can always choose between the Vaikuntha and the mahat-tattva material energies (that can lead to a further choice of entering the dormant Brahman effulgence.

4. The jiva soul that exercises its independence properly remains with Krishna.

5. The jiva soul that misuses its independence is placed in the material world.

6. Such conditioned souls can be said to be eternally conditioned, because the inner event that led to their conditioning took place outside the material time, with its divisions of past, present, and future, so originally all living entities are eternally nitya-siddha.

"The Lord tells Uddhava that his question is unnecessary because the soul is never really bound by the material nature. It is simply an illusion to think that the material body, which is created by the influence of the three modes of material nature, is the self. Only due to such illusion does the living entity suffer, just as one experiences distress in a dream.

Of course, material nature is not an illusion—it actually exists, just as the living entities also exist, both being potencies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

It is the dream that he is a part of the material nature that constitutes the illusion of the living entity. Thus, the soul is never actually bound because his existence is always superior to that of matter”. Commentary (Srila Vishvanatha Cackravarti Thakur)

Where there is light, darkness does not exist

Similarly, when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.

Therefore ones svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna and not even aware that their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness even exists because factually it does not exist if one is fully Krishna conscious.

So it is due to the marginal living entitles non-Krishna conscious desires that ones secondary dreaming conscious characteristic of their marginal identity enters the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

This is made possible by ones choice to use their God given free will not to be with or remember Krishna as their devotional nitya-siddha form or body.

Such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness known as the nitya-baddha lower self’ to the temporary material manifestation known as the mahat-tattva, where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by Maha-Vishnu, the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

 

 

 

 

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

 

 

'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka,

We all can enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation however; no one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation.

We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva (material creation)

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Question – “Could this mean as our nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness dissipates, as the awareness of our nitya-siddha body is gradually re established and realized?”

Answer – “Yes, through our Krishna Conscious endeavour and selfless humble service, even while we are so called 'eternally conditioned' (nitya-baddha consciousness), our pathway back home can begin.

In this way while confined or trapped in our dreaming nitya-baddha comatose consciousness, we all have the opportunity to again re-establish our Krishna Conscious bodily active devotional self in our original perpetual position as nitya-siddha.

This fullness of the marginal living entity is a transcendental body without beginning or end blossoming within the devotional personal pastimes of Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna or Vishnu beyond mundane time and space.

The mundane realm is outside the Personal active pastimes of Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha. Such impermanence is only found within both the temporary mahat-tattva and also within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (Brahma-sayuyja etc).

In this way all living entities are originally nitya-siddha and have a perpetual bodily form serving Krishna”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

[suchandra]

 

What disgraceful envious nonsense!! PRABHUPADA WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO FOLLOWED HIS SPIRITUAL MASTERS ORDER!!

 

Well agreed, but who would have entered a ship like the Jaladuta?

 

[Kulapavana]

 

As Prabhupada said "None of my Godbrothers are qualified or fit to be GURUS"

 

First of all, he never said that. he made a statement that none of his Godbrothers is fit to be an Acharya, or one primary spiritual leader of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's mission. these two are very different concepts, but because you folks are blinded with your sentimentality, you are unable to see that. If you are pretending to quote Prabhupada, make sure the quote is not bogus. It is very misleading. On some forums you would have been banned for dishonesty, as it happened more than once before.

 

Second of all, it is not quite up to Prabhupada to make such sweeping statements. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta personally and directly authorized several of his disciples to be gurus. On top of that, Prabhupada took sannyasa from his Godbrother. Does it mean his sannyasa is bogus, because he took it from a person who is not qualified to be a guru?

 

Please!! think before you fly off the handle with your tirades.

[Beggar]

Sarva gattah, I tried to harmonize but now you have cycled back into the polarization/ war producing mode which only begets offenses and counter offenses. Congratulations, good job. Even without all this insane internet ISKCON/Gaudiya politics, we are so, so far from real Krsna Consciousness and now we can geometrically expand our Maya and broadcast our offenses to many and get offended in return. What to speak of offending great souls who are many lifetimes more spiritually evolved. What an unfortuate way to spend one's precious time - creating more and more disunity and disharmony. It takes a very hard heart to perpetrate such a thing and the result is to even make one's heart harder. Is this what you really want? You must be mistaking your own mind for the internal guidance of caita-guru.

[suchandra]

 

So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine, think or dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY THAT NEVER LEAVES GOLOKA. Most living entities therefore never enter the world of imagination (the mahat-tattva) and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

How it slightly sounds out when reading posts of the conception, "we somehow fell from the Brahmajyoti", that there's an inexplicable injustice involved why we came here.

Remember, the living entity transmigrates through millions of forms when finally reaching the human form. It should be clear that the underlying principle of this really long journey must be a deliberate decision and not some vage mistake why the jiva is put under the spell of material illusion.

 

sleeping sadhu

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Prabhupāda: Many, there are many reasons.

Devotee (4): I can’t seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature… Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how māyā works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how māyā works and how I might fall.

Prabhupāda: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa? They were Kṛṣṇa’s doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiraṇyakaśipu or Hiraṇyākṣa?

Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuṇṭha. They are Krishna’s personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.

Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krishna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuṇṭha at any moment. Icchā-dveṣa samutthena sarge yānti parantapa. Find out this verse.

Puṣṭa Krishna:

icchā-dveṣa samutthena dvandva-mohena bhārata sarva-bhūtāni sammohaṁ sarge yānti parantapa

“O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate.”

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: “The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking ‘This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.’ These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”

Prabhupāda: So even in the Vaikuṇṭha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.

Vipina: Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Prabhupāda: He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this.

Vipina: Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?

Prabhupāda: That means you lose your independence.

 

 

 

Evening Darśana

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.

 

full conversation: http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/760708ed.wdc.htm

[Kulapavana]

The story of Jaya and Vijaya is the only example of a "fall" from Vaikuntha in the shastras. Actually, they did not fall down at all. It was all Krsna's arrangement and Jaya and Vijaya accepted it without argument, as servants of the Lord should. There was no FALL there in the sense of losing proper devotional consciousness. What is more (listen sharp, sleepervadis!), they DESCENDED to the material world and did not leave their original spiritual bodies sleeping by the door of Vaikuntha.

 

Actually, the story of Jaya and Vijaya shows that: NO ONE EVER FALLS FROM VAIKUNTHA

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada tried to speak to her reasonably but she was adamant and would not accept. Finally Prabhupada said, "All right. But I have brought only one medicine, so please take it," and he began a blissful kirtan chanting

 

 

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna

Krsna Krsna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

Prabhupāda's Purport read by Pusta Krsna: “The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge.

 

When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Śrī Krishna appears by His internal potencies.

 

But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune.

 

Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking ‘This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.’ These are the dualities of delusion.

 

Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”

 

Prabhupāda: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.

 

Vipina: Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

 

Prabhupāda: He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this.

 

Vipina: Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?

 

Prabhupāda: That means you lose your independence.

 

Evening Darśana

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.

 

Full conversation: http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/760708ed.wdc.htm

[Sarva gattah]

 

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VdVmCnquPBE&feature=related

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

The living entity transmigrates through millions of forms when finally reaching the human form.

 

It should be clear that the underlying principle of this really long journey must be a deliberate decision and not some vage mistake why the jiva is put under the spell of material illusion.

 

sleeping sadhu

 

No one sleeps like this in Vaikuntha or Goloka then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that.

 

Suchandra, the answer is firstly no one sleeps like this in Vaikuntha or Goloka then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that. WHY??

A living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, this means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fallen down previously from Vaikuntha as their baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life.

Some also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there.

Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva.

Secondly, the photo of the Sadhu laying down sleeping, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state.

Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way. What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. This sentence is very important to understand.

There is no 'laying down sleeping in Vaikuntha or Goloka, and then dreaming' ones material existence, it is not like that.

 

What actually happens is the non-Krishna conscious desire and imaginations happen on the sub conscious level out of sync with the 'eternal present' that is eternally existent in Goloka.

Therefore the ONLY thing that happens is that the living entity leaves the spiritual Vaikuntha atmosphere of eternal time that is devoid of past and future.

The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, that only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'.

 

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates. The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time'

In this way it is incorrect to think a nitya-siddha devotee lays down and sleeps and dreams their baddha-jiva material existence, no it is not like that.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

 

DEVOTEE(4): Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Prabhupada: Many, there are many reasons.

Devotee (4): I can’t seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature… Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how Maya works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how Maya works and how I might fall.

Prabhupāda:You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakyaśipu, Hiranyakyaśipu? They were Krishna’s doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranakyaśipu or Hiraṇyākṣa?

Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupāda.

 

 

[Beggar]

 

Therefor what ONLY happens, is that one leaves the spiritual atmosphere of eternal time, that is devoid of past and future in Goloka, and then enters the time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva

The paradox here is, one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they have. Whats more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everthing is still gong on in servic and relationships with Krishna and His associates.

 

 

 

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jivaand spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

But Babaji had just finished saying,

 

Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.

and,

 

Vrajanatha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word tatastha?

Babaji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the tata (shore), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing but land, so where is the shore? The tata is the line of distinction separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then tata is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-sakti is situated at the place where the two meet. The jivas are like the countless atomic particles of light within the sunrays. Being situated in the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and the material universe created by maya on the other. Just as Bhagavan’s spiritual sakti on one side is unlimited, maya-sakti on the other side is also very powerful. The innumerable subtle(suksma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal by nature because they have manifested from Krsna’s tatasthasakti (marginal potency).

You have Babaji Maharaja and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur at war with themselves. Yet everything is answered there, including what you have to say, only Babaji Maharaja (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur) says it much better than you!

Think, what does he mean by,

 

Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

[realist]

 

 

 

 

 

 

No one sleeps like this in Vaikuntha or Goloka then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that.

 

Suchandra, the answer is firstly no one sleeps like this in Vaikuntha or Goloka then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that. WHY??

A living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, this means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fallen down previously from Vaikuntha as their baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life.

Some also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there.

Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva.

Secondly, the photo of the Sadhu laying down sleeping, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state.

Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way. What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. This sentence is very important to understand.

There is no 'laying down sleeping in Vaikuntha or Goloka, and then dreaming' ones material existence, it is not like that.

 

What actually happens is the non-Krishna conscious desire and imaginations happen on the sub conscious level out of sync with the 'eternal present' that is eternally existent in Goloka.

Therefore the ONLY thing that happens is that the living entity leaves the spiritual Vaikuntha atmosphere of eternal time that is devoid of past and future.

The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, that only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

 

 

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'.

 

 

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates. The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time'

In this way it is incorrect to think a nitya-siddha devotee lays down and sleeps and dreams their baddha-jiva material existence, no it is not like that.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

[Beggar]

 

 

 

 

No one sleeps like this in Vaikuntha or Goloka then dreams they are in the

 

 

 

material world. No, it is not like that.

 

So why the fighting over the origin of the soul? ...the soul is eternal and from that viewpoint - the viewpoint of the eternal present - has no origin. So why the fighting over the "origin"? But then again the soul does have an origin, but that's from the angle of vision of time. We cannot pretend to be in "the eternal present" if really we are still so attached to our bodies and minds.

The sastra have given so many analogies like the sun and particles of the sun's rays, but that's just an analogy. And anyway we are told that we cannot really understand these things in our present state of consciousness, so why should we pretend that we do? There is no Gaudiya Math conspiracy to drag us back into impersonalism. This is an old ISKCON myth that has no connection with reality. The only thing that can really drag us down is Vaisnava aparadha.

[realist]

 

There is no Gaudiya Math conspiracy to drag us back into impersonalism. This is an old ISKCON myth.

 

Lets pray that is so on both accounts. Then please explain how you get around Sridar Maharaj's comments that we were not previously in Krishna lila because we came from a plain sheet of consciousness, that is also always growing with new individual jivas? With all due respects, his understanding is clearly incorrect. Can you answer this question? Anyway the understanding below is very clear and IS Prabhupada's teachings -Quote:

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

No one sleeps like this in Vaikuntha or Goloka then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that.WHY??

 

A living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, this means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fallen down previously from Vaikuntha as their baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life.

 

Some also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there.

 

 

Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva.

 

 

Secondly, the photo of the Sadhu laying down sleeping, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state.

 

 

Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way.

 

What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. This sentence is very important to understand.

 

 

There is no 'laying down sleeping in Vaikuntha or Goloka, and then dreaming' ones material existence, it is not like that.

 

 

 

What actually happens is the non-Krishna conscious desire and imaginations happen on the sub conscious level out of sync with the 'eternal present' that is eternally existent in Goloka.

 

 

Therefore the ONLY thing that happens is that the living entity leaves the spiritual Vaikuntha atmosphere of eternal time that is devoid of past and future.

 

 

The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, that only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'.

 

 

 

 

 

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates.

 

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time'

 

 

In this way it is incorrect to think a nitya-siddha devotee lays down and sleeps and dreams their baddha-jiva material existence, no it is not like that.

 

 

 

 

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Beggar]

 

Lets pray that is so on both accounts. Then please explain how you get around Sridar Maharaj's comments that we were not previously in Krishna lila because we came from a plain sheet of consciousness, that is also always growing with new individual jivas? With all due respects, his understanding is clearly incorrect. Can you answer this question?

Here is Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's (Babaji's) answer to your question, and here is the same question being posed in slightly different manner by his character Vrajanatha:

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

[realist]

Why didn't Sridhar Maharaj explain it that way?

 

Sarva's been saying that based on Prabhupadas teachings and personal association, since he came on this forum and was bagged by everyone, so really there is no arugument if we understand the concept of time. well at least you understand, many others still don't comprehend. Just a bit of advice, break up you quotes with paragrahs for easier reading. Also which translation are you using? There is one being done now and this debate is influencing that translation

[Beggar]

 

 

 

 

 

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Jaiva Dharma

 

Table of Contents

 

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Preface

 

[by Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja]

(written for the third Hindi edition)

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Gaudiya Vaisnava Guru Parampara

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Introduction

 

[by Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja]

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Chapter 1 -- The Eternal & Temporary Dharmas of the Jiva

 

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Chapter 2 -- The Nitya Dharma of the Jiva is Pure & Eternal

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Chapter 3 -- Naimittika-Dharma is to be Relinquished

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Chapter 4 -- Vaisnava-Dharma is Nitya-Dharma

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Chapter 5 -- Vaidhi-Bhakti is Nitya not Naimittika-Dharma

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Chapter 6 -- Nitya-Dharma, Race & Caste

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Chapter 7 -- Nitya-Dharma & Material Existence

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Chapter 8 -- Nitya-Dharma & Vaisnava Behavior

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Chapter 9 -- Nitya-Dharma, Material Science & Civilization

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Chapter 10 -- Nitya-Dharma & History

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Chapter 11 -- Nitya-Dharma & Idolatry

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Chapter 12 -- Nitya-Dharma, Sadhana & Sadhya

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Chapter 13 -- Pramana & The Commencement of Prameya

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Chapter 14 -- Prameya: Sakti-Tattva

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Chapter 15 -- Prameya: Jiva-Tattva

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Chapter 16 -- Prameya: Jivas Possessed by Maya

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Chapter 17 -- Prameya: The Jivas Free from Maya

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Chapter 18 -- Prameya: Bhedabheda-Tattva

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Chapter 19 -- Prameya: Abhidheya Tattva

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Chapter 20 -- Prameya: Abhidheya – Vaidhi-Sadhana-Bhakti

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Chapter 21 -- Prameya: Abhidheya – Raganuga-Sadhana-Bhakti

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Chapter 22 -- Prameya: Prayojana Tattva

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Chapter 23 -- Prameya: Sri-Nama-Tattva

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Chapter 24 -- Prameya: Nama-Aparadha

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Chapter 25 -- Prameya: Namabhasa

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Chapter 26 -- Introduction to Rasa-Tattva

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Chapter 27 -- Rasa-Tattva: Sattvika-Bhava, Vyabhicari-Bhava & Rati-Abhasa

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Chapter 28 -- Rasa-Tattva: Mukhya-Rati

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Chapter 29 -- Rasa-Tattva: Anubhavas in Santa, Dasya, & Sakhya Rasas

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Chapter 30 -- Rasa-Tattva: Anubhavas in Vatsalya & Madhurya Rasa

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Chapter 31 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Krsna’s Svarupa, the Nayaka, & Svakiya-Nayikas

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Chapter 32 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Parakiya-Nayikas

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Chapter 33 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Sri Radha’s Svarupa, Five Types of Sakhis, & Messengers

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Chapter 34 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Sri Radha’s Svarupa, Five Types of Sakhis, & Messengers

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Chapter 35 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Uddipana

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Chapter 36 -- Sthayibhava & Stages of Rati

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Chapter 37 -- Srngara-Rasa: Srngara-Svarupa & Vipralambha

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Chapter 38 -- Srngara-Rasa: Mukhya-Sambhoga & Asta-Kaliya-Lila

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Chapter 39 -- Entering Lila

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Chapter 40 -- Attaining Prema – the Supreme Wealth

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Glossary of Terms

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Glossary of Names

 

Glossary of Places

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General Index

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Index of Quoted Slokas

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Contacts Around The World

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Return to

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[realist]

Aparently Hari Sauri Prabhu is also printing a translation that deals also with the many comments Srila Prabhupada made on this subject for the ISKCON society.

[Beggar]

 

Why didn't Sridhar Maharaj explain it that way?

 

 

What Srila Sridhar Maharaja gave was based on what the sastras say about the origin of the jiva soul. We can't find anywhere the question posed to him about "the eternal present". Also he really didn't care to talk so much about this topic and advised those who heard from him to not give this topic so much focus. He certainly used to tell Srila Prabhupada's disciples and followers, "back home, back to Godhead"! Perhaps those who compiled the talks by Srila Sridhar Maharaja into books had some agenda back in the early and mid-eighties. Those persons had just recently been embroiled in some very heavy ISKCON politics.

What is difficult to understand is that the sastric version is really just a series of analogies used to give some approximation of reality as if the soul originates or manifests or expands from Godhead or His energies. But the branch of the tree is not the moon for which we are ultimately looking, for the moon is not really sitting on the branch after all, it just appears that way.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The correct undertsanding of the jivas 'eternal' origin

 

 

For a living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fall down previously, long, long, long ago from Vaikuntha, as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life. Some also then proceed to shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there again to the mahat-tattva or material creation to the encloser of ethereal and biological vessels.

 

Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva.

 

Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way. What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. This sentence is very important to understand.

The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, that only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'.