How have we fallen in this material world?

[Sarva gattah]

 

Where did I come from , I mean wheeeere did I come from - really--where did IIIIIII come from - where did i coooooome from -- That's why we're all sleeping.

 

Wakey wakey.

 

So, for our Brahma-Vadi friends (no fall avadis or sleep avadis) what will they do now? Maybe demonise these verses as Apa siddhantic or of the Kuyogi Sampradaya?

Or belittle the slokas as simply words to encourage the pious to do Punyas?

Or try to emphasize that these verses are fanciful imagination? Then better yet they may try to minimize these verses as secondary evidence or not authentic or as interpolations? Any way you want to cut it, there is disagreement on this point and the Patanam Slokas, will stand their ground, and support Srila Prabhupada that jivas can fall (patanam) from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

So how can apparently contradictory statements be reconciled? Jiva Goswami explains in his Krsna Sandarbha 152.9that Vedanta Sutra states –

“If there are two contradictory statements in scripture, the first statement should be interpreted so that it does not contradict the later statement.”

So the way to employ this understanding of Jiva Goswami means that for us, the Fallvadis (as the Brahmavadis call us) we accept both ideas i.e. coming from Brahman and coming from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

The jivas coming from Brahman are those jivas who did not get liberated in Brahma’s lifetime and entered the body of Maha-Vishnu. So, when they reappear when Maha-Vishnu begins to expand universes again that occurrence is an origin because it is over a time period of trillions and trillions of years, which is like eternity.

 

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only think, dream and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' by adding a past and future to their existence, that is separated from Krishna AND the body they serve Krishna as in Krsnaloka.

What’s more is, it's almost as if the 'awareness' of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen due to that falling out of sync with the eternal present)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates as if they hadn't fallen at all.

The only thing that has changed is the awareness of 'eternal time' has given way to 'divided time' by selfishly adding 'past and future' dimensions that are activated by 'desiring' mundane plans of enjoyment without Krsna'

This places the fallen living entity's 'awareness' outside of Krsnaloka even though they are an eternal resident of Goloka.

They now become completely forgetful and unaware of their 'real' svarupa body (THE REAL UNENDING SELF) because the living entity in now lost in a comatose dream of self importance, imaging they are Lord of the Universe.

As a consequence, they eventually find their way to the mahat-tattva where such dreams are given form and reality (but only a fading or temporary reality) of self-expression within that temporary material creation or mahat-tattva.

So one falls down from Goloka by falling out of sync (pure selfless loving devotion to the Lord) with the 'eternal present' - for this reason it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka. You just may wonder why Krishna is giving you a big huge

[Bishadi]

 

"How have we fallen in this material world?"

Perhaps the children are taught how to see this world.

 

It is our fault! We hold onto what we believe as if a thing.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -

"You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

‘you are liberated’…… simply we are born conscious! The clouds are the blinders of learned knowledge.

The ‘tiger’ is described or understood by conditioning (learned knowledge coupled with mind-thinking)

 

Srila Prabhupada-

"You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>'s servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

We are born with the abilities but again our minds are covered in words and ideas learned. We are already in heaven; place of experiencing choice.

But to try and comprehend the illusions of coverings (words) often they will not add up. So to understanding a be enlightened in mind, learning and that God inspired intent can be revived at any time the ‘choice’ is experienced into action.

And to realize each choice was and is of purpose, then be honest with the experience and ‘do’ rather than remain tortured in misunderstanding and devoid of peace in consciousness.

Of simply we are often taught conflicting information; to return to peace of mind; follow your instinct to learn and understand; offering Peace of Mind knowing and understanding the experiences of life; (Krsna Conscious)

Of course one may find conflicts of ideas but if you were to look into the eyes of a child, would you wish them comprehension or the discontent of maintained ignorance? (hell)

In the retention of faith; ignorance is promoted.

 

 

"How have we fallen in this material world?"

 

TO hold onto an idea as if 'material', rather than allow the change within Vishnu to evolve; many are clouded in faith.

 

Experiencing and 'being' true to existence (Vishnu) means we are not what is governing the inevitable; the evolution of the truth!

 

 

Are the faithful clouded in the material? Absolutely! Like holding onto a coin! When we all know, it is not yours but ours (the total) such the same with knowledge... it is not yours to keep and retain as complete, when the total of existence is in constant change (evolution of mind... 'process' to the collective conscious).

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>

 

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only think, dream and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' by adding a past and future to their existence, that is separated from Krishna AND the body they serve Krishna as in Krsnaloka.

What’s makes an interesting point is, it's almost as if the 'awareness' of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen due to that falling out of sync with the eternal present)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates as if they hadn't fallen at all.

The only thing that has changed is the awareness of 'eternal time' has given way to 'divided time' by selfishly adding 'past and future' dimensions that are activated by 'desiring' mundane plans of enjoyment without Krsna'

This places the fallen living entity's 'awareness' outside of Krsnaloka even though they are an eternal resident of Goloka.

They now become completely forgetful and unaware of their 'real' svarupa body (THE REAL UNENDING SELF) because the living entity in now lost in a comatose dream of self importance, imaging they are Lord of the Universe.

As a consequence, they eventually find their way to the mahat-tattva where such dreams are given form and reality (but only a fading or temporary reality) of self-expression within that temporary material creation or mahat-tattva.

So one falls down from Goloka by falling out of sync (pure selfless loving devotion to the Lord) with the 'eternal present' - for this reason it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and again re-establishing ones original relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed.

 

On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka. YOU JUST MAY WONDER WHY KRISHNA IS GIVING YOU A BIG HUGE

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Beggar]

 

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only think, dream and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' by adding a past and future to their existence, that is separated from Krishna AND the body they serve Krishna as in Krsnaloka.

The problem is not with the basic thoughts expressed above but rather with the language and logic used to express such thoughts. If "no one really leaves Goloka" then what about those devotees who have an eternal serving relationship with Sri Rama in Ayodhya? Hanuman may be a great devotee but he never is allowed or even desires to enter Goloka Vrndavana. So in an attempt to answer a paradox we create another paradox. If it is a real paradox and it certainly is, then it cannot really be answered. Such is the situation in the "great debate" over the origin of that which has no origin! Remember we can experience meeting Krsna or meeting Him again if you wish to see it that way; but can we experience our origin? If our eternal service to Krsna in our swarupa bodies is there, beyond time, then so would our "origin". But guess what? It is not, because we really have no origin for the jiva soul is eternal.

We say "tatastha shakti" for this is what Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu told. But can you really say where the sea ends and where the shore begins and visa versa. No you cannot for it is merely a logical construct in thought, IOW it is only an idea used to convey other ideas. The descriptions of the origin of the jiva from the tatastha shakti is only an idea to emphasize other ideas which may be substantial truths like the pristine infallible position of Krsna's eternal siddha parikaras like Vishaka, Yasoda, Subal and Symala etc. Otherwise the tatastha idea has no reality for it is only an idea that must be viewed in the proper context of other ideas.

If you want to think that the devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's sankirtana movement are really eternally serving both Him and Radha Krsna in Goloka but are merely covered by a dream-like condition then that is siddhantically correct. But you cannot say that the jivas have fallen from Goloka Vrndavana because the previous acaryas have not written in this way. At the same time we can understand that the tatastha is just an imaginary concept. We should only tell what they have told on this matter, especially Srila Jiva Goswami and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and leave it at that. We cannot know everything but if we chant Hare Krsna and serve guru and sadhus then some realization will come. BTW I am just parphasing what Srila Narayana Maharaja has recently said about this subject.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Even a six year old Gurukuli boy can understand how the jiva 'falls down' from Goloka or Vaikuntha to the material creation by Druva dasa 6 years old

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Remember we can experience meeting Krsna or meeting Him again if you wish to see it that way; but can we experience our origin? If our eternal service to Krsna in our swarupa bodies is there, beyond time, then so would our "origin".

 

 

 

 

Our origin is 'locked' within the realm of the eternal present which makes our origin eternally manifest.

 

 

Not even Narayana Maharaj understands this, but I suppose it is not necessary to understand. This is why he should not give his opinion on the 'origin of the jiva', he just does not understand this issue. <?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Doesn’t be sentimental and think 'O he is Indian Guru, so he knows truth' the fact is he does not Know otherwise he wouldn’t beat around the bush with nonsense word jugglery and out rightly say the truth which is

‘We are all in Goloka right now but are dreaming we are in the material world’

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 6.2.43

"Upon seeing the Visnudutas, Ajamila gave up his material body at Hardwar on the bank of the Ganges. He regained his original spiritual body, which was a body appropriate for an associate of the Lord".

 

The reason why all marginal living beings have an eternal bodily form is because they were ‘created’ within a dominion known as the ‘eternal present’ where every living entity in that realm were/are originally (without a beginning point) created as a person with full bodily features.

 

This is the living entities ‘svarupa’ body that eternally and originally exists within that ‘eternal present’ of Goloka-Vrndavana as ever fresh, eternally in the stage of being new and original, an originality that is permanantly, without beginning or end, locked in that realm of origin.

 

Even though our svarupa body, IS our original position, there is no beginning or end to that ‘original position’ because it is situated within the ‘eternal present’

This means technically they, like Krishna, were never actually created. This is because their real identities or eternal bodies, are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now.

Within that unending world, all living entities are perpetually existening, which means they are always present there in ‘the eternal present’ without the concept of past and future as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, whom are the eternal servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna.

Therefore, ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginningless).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides.

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (at least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, that seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha)

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet.

So we should all try to understand our original position that is our eternal identity in Krsnaloka', as Prabhupada would say’.

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka. There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', where there is no past or future, these things will be seen in another way.

What is that other way that many say is conceivable to understand?

The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in Krsnaloka.

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

[Beggar]

 

This means technically they, like Krishna, were never actually created. This is because their real identities or eternal bodies, are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now.

Srila Narayana Maharaja's position is that since Srila Jiva Goswami and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur did not write that the jiva falls from Goloka or Vaikuntha then he will not write or say that. But as I have shown you several times, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur writes of the "eternal present" in Jaiva Dharma. Since, how the soul manifests or originates is just a philosophical or theological construct to illustrate certain ideas like the sacred position of Krsna's parishad devotees it is really not worth quarreling over because the jiva soul really never manifests at all since it is eternal. So actually the 'tatastha' is just an idea or really an imaginary construct for conveying higher truths. Therefore the higher truth of the "eternal present" should be our focus. Why else would Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur sing in Gaya Gaura Madhura Svare, maya jale baddha ache miche kaja lo ye, when will the covering of maya [the maya jala] be lifted so I can see Navadvipa dhama (or Vrndavana) as it really is (in the eternal present)?

This all means that the debate over the origin of the jiva is a moot point and that we should not make schisms or camps over such issues. It is just Maha Maya's trick to divert us from our real business of preaching Krsna Consciousness to those who are drowning in the material morass.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

‘We are all in Goloka right now but are dreaming we are in the material world’

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 6.2.43

"Upon seeing the Visnudutas, Ajamila gave up his material body at Hardwar on the bank of the Ganges. He regained his original spiritual body, which was a body appropriate for an associate of the Lord".

 

The reason why all marginal living beings have an eternal bodily form is because they were ‘created’ within a dominion known as the ‘eternal present’ where every living entity in that realm were/are originally (without a beginning point) created as a person with full bodily features.

 

This is the living entities ‘svarupa’ body that eternally and originally exists within that ‘eternal present’ of Goloka-Vrndavana as ever fresh, eternally in the stage of being new and original, an originality that is permanantly, without beginning or end, locked in that realm of origin.

 

Even though our svarupa body, IS our original position, there is no beginning or end to that ‘original position’ because it is situated within the ‘eternal present’

This means technically they, like Krishna, were never actually created. This is because their real identities or eternal bodies, are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now.

Within that unending world, all living entities are perpetually existening in a perpertual state of ORIGINALITY, which means they are always present there in ‘the eternal present’ without the concept of past and future as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, whom are the eternal servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja's position is that since Srila Jiva Goswami and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur did not write that the jiva falls from Goloka or Vaikuntha then he will not write or say that.

 

Nonsense, he does not understand the deep meaning of both Srila Jiva Goswami and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur teachings as presented by Sria Prabhupada and thats why I never read his jiva origin nonsense

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes in Jaiva Dharma in Nitya Dharma, part 5 –

 

“The imprisonment of the jiva began when the jiva forgot his position as the eternal servant of Sri Krsna. This forgetfulness is the original offence of the jiva and is the root of all the jiva’s subsequent offences.”

 

In Srimad Bhagavatam, purport of 3.26.7 Srila Prabhupada states -

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does. He has no responsibility. He is simply the witness of the actions, he is forced to act that way due to his offence in his eternal relationship with Krsna.”

And what is that original offence?

The answer is giving up the Lord’s service.

In Srimad Bhagavatam, 5.14.1, Prabhupada states in the purport -

Srila Prabhupada – “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world.”

In Tokyo on April 20, 1972 Prabhupada stated –

Srila Prabhupada – “He has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna.”

Giving up the service to Sri Krsna is due to freewill which leads to more forgetfulness due to the choices one makes due to that free will.

There are other aspects of freewill, but giving up service means giving up our love to Krsna, or we want to serve in another way that is not compatible in the spiritual world.

Krsna does not force you to love Him. You have to desire it willingly and that is the topmost use of freewill, this is what freewill means, to voluntarily serve Krsna. The living entity is given that ‘choice’ because without it, there is no meaning to individuality or being a marginal living being.

The other angle is that by misusing our freewill we make the wrong decision and Maya immediately covers us AFTER the living entity chooses to manufacture their existence without Krishna.

Freewill is perfect and imperfect and yes it is an inconceivable truth (Acintya Tattva) It is perfect in the aspect of allowing one to freely choose to endlessly increasingly serve and it is imperfect and not suitable for Goloka when we choose to ignore Krsna. This is one reason why the Lord creates the Mahat-tattva (material creation)

The perfect aspect of this imperfection of the jiva is that you can go back to serve Krsna again. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.11.25 confirms this -

“Oh my Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, will I again be able to be a servant of Your eternal servants who find shelter at Your lotus feet? Oh Lord of my life, may I again become their servant so that my mind may always engage in the loving service of Your Lordship.”

Twice Srila Prabhupada uses the word bhuyah (again), stressing the point.

When the jivas misuse freewill in Goloka, Vaikuntha it is not like a case of newly transformed envious jivas hanging around. They are instantly covered and ousted from the Lord’s realm.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura’s purport to text 44 of Brahma Samhita states –

“When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world.”

On a morning walk in Vrndavana, 9-13-75 Prabhupada said: “He has given you little freedom’ you can use it. Yathecchasi tathaa kuru, Krsna says in Gita (18.63), ‘Whatever you like you do.”

Some devotees seem to think that this discussion of the “Fall, no fall of the Jiva” started after Prabhupada’s disappearance but that is not a fact.

In the early 1972, Madhudvisa had to deal with the issue in Australia while travelling around preaching on a Double Decker travelling Temple that I was also personally on and the Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter is a result of that exchange with devotees who thought we came from the Brahmajyoti. The letter has typed parts, Prabhupada also added his own handwritten notes, and he signed the letter by hand. Madhudvisa has the letter.

In the early 1970’s, Siddhasvarupananda Swami was preaching that the jivas came from the Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada told him not to preach that in his temples.

[Sarva gattah]

In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.24.19), Lord Krishna says,

 

 

 

prakrtir yasyopādānam

 

 

 

 

 

 

ādhārah purusah parah

 

 

 

 

 

 

sato 'bhivyañjakah kālo

 

 

 

 

 

 

brahma tat tritayam tv aham

 

"The material universe is real, having prakrti as its original ingredient and final state. Lord Mahā-Vishnu is the resting place of nature, which becomes manifest by the power of time. Thus nature, the almighty Vishnu and time are not different from Me, the Supreme Absolute Truth."

Prakrti, however, undergoes transformation, while her Lord, the supreme purusa, does not. Prakrti is the Personality of Godhead's external energy, but He has another energy — His internal energy — which is svarūpa-bhūtā All living entities, like Krsna, have eternal bodily form in the original state they were created as, which is nondifferent from His (Krsna's) very essence. The Lord's internal energy, like Himself, is never subject to material change

[Sarva gattah]

It is very clear with both Sridar and Narayana Maharaj's, they claim some living entities have never seen Krsna and have never been in Krsna’s pastimes where as Srila Prabhupada says ALL living entities originate (Meaning coming down to the material world) from Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada says our eternal svarupa bodily form is always in Goloka and all we must do is re-establish, regain and reconnect to who we really are, remember who we really are. - ‘We are all in Goloka right now but are dreaming we are in the material world’

Srimad Bhagavatam 6.2.43

"Upon seeing the Visnudutas, Ajamila gave up his material body at Hardwar on the bank of the Ganges. He regained his original spiritual body, which was a body appropriate for an associate of the Lord".

The reason why all marginal living beings have an eternal bodily form is because they were ‘created’ within a dominion known as the ‘eternal present’ where every living entity in that realm were/are originally (without a beginning point) created as a person with full bodily features.

This is the living entities ‘svarupa’ body that eternally and originally exists within that ‘eternal present’ of Goloka-Vrndavana as ever fresh, eternally in the stage of being new and original, an originality that is permanantly, without beginning or end, locked in that realm of origin.

Even though our svarupa body, IS our original position, there is no beginning or end to that ‘original position’ because it is situated within the ‘eternal present’

This means technically they, like Krishna, were never actually created. This is because their real identities or eternal bodies, are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now.

Within that unending world, all living entities are perpetually existing in a perpetual state of ORIGINALITY, which means they are always present there in ‘the eternal present’ without the concept of past and future as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, whom are the eternal servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna.

Devotee -"Srila Narayana Maharaja's position is that since he believes Srila Jiva Goswami and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur did not write that the jiva falls from Goloka or Vaikuntha, then he will not write or say that, has he misunderstood Vedanta?”

Yes, he has on this subject, Narayana Maharaja does not understand the deep meaning of both Srila Jiva Goswami, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur teachings as presented by Srila Prabhupada and that’s why I never read his jiva origin nonsense or his Jaiva Dharma version

Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes in Jaiva Dharma in Nitya Dharma, part 5 –

“The imprisonment of the jiva began when the jiva forgot his position as the eternal servant of Sri Krsna. This forgetfulness is the original offence of the jiva and is the root of all the jiva’s subsequent offences.”

In Srimad Bhagavatam, purport of 3.26.7 Srila Prabhupada states -

Srila Prabhupada – “Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does. He has no responsibility. He is simply the witness of the actions, he is forced to act that way due to his offence in his eternal relationship with Krsna.”

And what is that original offence?

The answer is giving up the Lord’s service.

In Srimad Bhagavatam, 5.14.1, Prabhupada states in the purport -

Srila Prabhupada – “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world.”

In Tokyo on April 20, 1972 Prabhupada stated –

Srila Prabhupada – “He has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna.”

Giving up the service to Sri Krsna is due to freewill which leads to more forgetfulness due to the choices one makes due to that free will.

There are other aspects of freewill, but giving up service means giving up our love to Krsna, or we want to serve in another way that is not compatible in the spiritual world.

Krsna does not force you to love Him. You have to desire it willingly and that is the topmost use of freewill, this is what freewill means, to voluntarily serve Krsna. The living entity is given that ‘choice’ because without it, there is no meaning to individuality or being a marginal living being.

The other angle is that by misusing our freewill we make the wrong decision and Maya immediately covers us AFTER the living entity chooses to manufacture their existence without Krishna.

Freewill is perfect and imperfect and yes it is an inconceivable truth (Acintya Tattva) It is perfect in the aspect of allowing one to freely choose to endlessly increasingly serve and it is imperfect and not suitable for Goloka when we choose to ignore Krsna. This is one reason why the Lord creates the Mahat-tattva (material creation)

The perfect aspect of this imperfection of the jiva is that you can go back to serve Krsna again. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.11.25 confirms this -

“Oh my Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, will I again be able to be a servant of Your eternal servants who find shelter at Your lotus feet? Oh Lord of my life, may I again become their servant so that my mind may always engage in the loving service of Your Lordship.”

Twice Srila Prabhupada uses the word bhuyah (again), stressing the point.

When the jivas misuse freewill in Goloka, Vaikuntha it is not like a case of newly transformed envious jivas hanging around. They are instantly covered and ousted from the Lord’s realm.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura’s purport to text 44 of Brahma Samhita states –

“When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world.”

On a morning walk in Vrndavana, 9-13-75 Prabhupada said: “He has given you little freedom’ you can use it. Yathecchasi tathaa kuru, Krsna says in Gita (18.63), ‘Whatever you like you do.”

Some devotees seem to think that this discussion of the “Fall, no fall of the Jiva” started after Prabhupada’s disappearance but that is not a fact.

In the early 1972, Madhudvisa had to deal with the issue in Australia while travelling around preaching on a Double Decker travelling Temple that I was also personally on and the Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter is a result of that exchange with devotees who thought we came from the Brahmajyoti. The letter has typed parts, Prabhupada also added his own handwritten notes, and he signed the letter by hand. Madhudvisa has the letter.

In the early 1970’s, Siddhasvarupananda Swami was preaching that the jivas came from the Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada told him not to preach that in his temples.

In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.24.19), Lord Krishna says,

 

 

prakrtir yasyopādānam

ādhārah purusah parah

sato 'bhivyañjakah kālo

brahma tat tritayam tv aham

 

"The material universe is real, having prakrti as its original ingredient and final state. Lord Mahā-Vishnu is the resting place of nature, which becomes manifest by the power of time. Thus nature, the almighty Vishnu and time are not different from Me, the Supreme Absolute Truth."

Prakrti, however, undergoes transformation, while her Lord, the supreme purusa, does not. Prakrti is the Personality of Godhead's external energy, but He has another energy — His internal energy — which is svarūpa-bhūtā All living entities, like Krsna, have eternal bodily form in the original state they were created as, which is nondifferent from His (Krsna's) very essence. The Lord's internal energy, like Himself, is never subject to material change.

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides.

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (At least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada has said and has made it very clear to those who understand his teachings, that all jiva/souls (marginal living entities or jiva-tattvas) are originally (Which means eternally without beginning or end when referring to the Kingdom of God), serving Krishna perpetually as their full devotional bodily form (svarupa). This means the real eternal original identity of all living entities is forever protected NOW in this moment of time, within ‘the never-ending timelessness of Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka.

This means the ‘present moment concept of devotional eternity’, which is a starting point without any beginning for ALL living entities, only exists in Krsnaloka and the Vaikuntha planets. This realization over-rides the meaning of the word jiva-tatastha is this regards when one comprehends the full impact of what the ‘eternal present’ actually means.

In other words the correct meaning of tatastha refers to the jiva’s ability to choose Krishna or their own concocted existence that can only be experienced in another of Krishna’s creations, the perishable material world (mahat-tattva) that is out of sync with the ‘eternal present’ and has the added features of past and future.

The originally beginning of all living entities, who are eternal (because paradoxically there is no beginning or end to Krsna and or the living entities), are their perpetual svarupa bodies in Krsnaloka however, there are some living entities in the minority, who may choose not to be themselves and dream of their own existence ‘consciously’ separate from devotion to Krishna.

Such a sub-conscious departure and forgetfulness of their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body, does not register within the ‘eternal present’ because if it is the ‘eternal now’, without past or future, how can it register?

This means that when a living entity chooses to ‘sub-consciously’ leave Krsnaloka and experience billions of life times in the mahat-tattva or material creation, from the viewpoint of Krsnaloka or the ‘eternal present’, they have not gone at all. The living entity may have gone sub-consciously (nitya-baddha) for billions upon billions of years, but on return, it will be as if the living entity never left even for a moment from their devotional svarupa body.

In this way, all of us in the material world have presently, due to choice and free will, forgotten our real eternal vigraha (form) svarupa (devotional body) that is always present in Krsnaloka serving Krishna as a great nitya-siddha devotee of the Lord.

This means all living entities have an imperishable bodily form called ‘svarupa’ which is the full potential and expression of all marginal living beings who are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now.

Within that unending world, all living entities are perpetually existing, which means they are always present there in ‘the eternal present’ without the concept of past and future as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, whom are the eternal servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna. Therefore, ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginningless because the living entities nitya-siddha bodily form always exists without beginning or end, pat and fture because it is always NOW.).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

[Beggar]

 

It is very clear with both Sridar and Narayana Maharaj's, they claim some living entities have never seen Krsna and have never been in Krsna’s pastimes where as Srila Prabhupada says ALL living entities originate (Meaning coming down to the material world) from Vaikuntha..Srila Prabhupada says our eternal svarupa bodily form is always in Goloka and all we must do is re-establish, regain and reconnect to who we really are, remember who we really are. - ‘We are all in Goloka right now but are dreaming we are in the material world’

It is said that they were never with Krsna in full lila, but that they know Him like a child in the womb knows his father (an example given by Srila Prabhupada). But although it is said that they were never in full lila with Krsna (in swarupa) it is also said that if you chant the pure name they you will see that you are in Goloka serving Krsna in your swarupa. This is a complete paradox and this is what you are arguing against. But all arguments to the origin of the soul can be defeated by Crow and Tal Fruit Logic. You are purporting Srila Prabhupada's statement, that "we came down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago" and thereby putting words in his mouth that were never there. And those words are, " ALL living entities originate from Vaikuntha."

[Sarva gattah]

 

You are purporting Srila Prabhupada's statement, that "we came down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago" and thereby putting words in his mouth that were never there. And those words are, " ALL living entities originate from Vaikuntha."

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

[Beggar]

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

Sarvaji, Please read this post closely. Our's is a semantical argument and this is what I've been writing for the last several months. Mundane languages always have their limitations and are a clumsy way to express thoughts that are beyond the material time factor. For instance, here, "original spiritual form in Vaikuntha" means a form that exists in the "present moment". (You should be happy that we have achieved a meeting of the minds on this point.) But it doesn't mean a form which we had in the past, then lost and will regain - although we will regain a form that always exists in the "present moment". IOW there is no past in relation to the spiritual world. All this is inconceivable, and different related truths that "appear" opposite within it are actually simultaneously one, yet different from each other. To take one angle of vision on the subject, and use it against another angle is like trying to take Krsna's legs and then try to use them against His arms. The fact is that we cannot capture Krsna with our intellect, only with our love or prema like Mother Yasoda. Everyone on all sides of the issue, even those who are charged up about this issue and making mistakes with it will agree with this, even if they have to be reminded. The Hare Krsna Movement is really about developing or reviving our inherent love of God, in His most personal form as Sri Krsna. Everything else within bhakti yoga is only favorable if it is for this, and this alone.

[Sarva gattah]

Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

 

 

 

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

[bhaktajan]

Originally Posted by Beggar

. . . But it doesn't mean a form which we had in the past, then lost and will regain - although we will regain a form that always exists in the "present moment". . . .

 

---------------------

No. Absolute means absolute.

What you have described is samsara as found in the material world.

 

The soul has an individual personality that is "indivisable" ergo, absolute.

 

The soul must pursue "personal" acts [ie: the acts of a person].

 

May be you are conflating the axiom that 'consciousness (in different species) evolve from single-cell up to crawling to walking to flying to deva and back again to a mouse'--this senerio is for those in gross consciousness.

 

Yes, there are suras and asuras--both desend from the prajapatis (Brahma's kids)--but even the asuras are those that are the special recipients meant for the Gosple's good news of Kali-yuga's dharma/yajna.

 

The notion of "unmanifest states" of being does not change the status of a souls' "sat-chit-ananda" structure.

 

The 'avyakta' state of unmanifestation of the cosmos along with souls that identify with nothing beyond their sense grad is the astounding truth--souls in the material world are perpetually reinventing/exploring how to crawl & hump --without the notion that "originally they are a person of high stature from vaikuntha". The shame of such a realization is something God spare us souls until we can handle the news.

[Beggar]

You guys are either not reading my recent posts or completely misinterpreting them.

[Sarva gattah]

 

it doesn't mean a form which we had in the past, then lost and will regain - although we will regain a form that always exists in the "present moment". IOW there is no past in relation to the spiritual world.

 

Yes I agree, the English word 'remember' however, is as good as the word 'regain', which Prabhupada uses in his books to descibe that our svarupa bodily form is never lost due to the 'eternal present' however it can be forgotten due due our dreaming condition.

[Sarva gattah]

The English word 'remember' however, is as good as the word 'regain', which Prabhupada uses in his books to descibe that our svarupa bodily form is never lost due to the 'eternal present' however it can be forgotten due to our dreaming condition on the sub-conscious level of independant self centred desires.

 

Such selfish self planning desires, activated by free will and choice, make us forget Krsna and the perpetual body we serve Krsna as because we want to creat our own existence in the body WE choose in a world without Krsna, in a world where we try to be the master.

 

In the meantime while we are chasing our dreams of self importance in our dreams that end up being within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva, our svarupa nitya-siddha body is ever fresh and in an eternal state of originality because there is only the present, which means past and future do not and can not exist.

 

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

[Sarva gattah]

The transcendental Beggar says - "Original spiritual form in Vaikuntha" means a form that exists in the "present moment". (You should be happy that we have achieved a meeting of the minds on this point.) But it doesn't mean a form, which we had in the past, then lost and will regain - although we will regain a form that always exists in the "present moment".

Answer – Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

 

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

 

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The executive Managers of the mahat-tattva or material creation.

 

 

Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

 

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

 

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

 

Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

 

 

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginningless).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides.

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (at least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, that seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha)

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet.

So we should all try to understand our original position that is our eternal identity in Krsnaloka', as Prabhupada would say’.

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka. There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', where there is no past or future, these things will be seen in another way.

What is that other way that many say is conceivable to understand?

The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in Krsnaloka.

Srila Prabhupada - “One should be humble and know that he is subordinate to the Supreme Lord. Due to rebellion against the Supreme Lord, one becomes subordinate to material nature. One must know and be convinced of this truth.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.12, purport.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport

 

Srila Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” . . . - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

Srila Prabhupada - “In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport.

 

Srila Prabhupada -“Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Germany, June 22, 1974</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The description Padmalochan Prabhu gave is that when the moon is reflected in water, it is not really in the water–the real moon is in the sky. But if the water moves, the reflection in the water appears to move.

It looks like a distorted, mis-shapen, moving moon. Sometimes we can hardly see any reflected moon at all. In our conditioned state, our understanding is like that distorted reflection.

When we have our consciousness purified by listening with proper attention and submission to Srila Prabhupada, then the consciousness becomes perfect like a still, glassy pond, or a polished mirror, and we will be able to see the real moon as it actually is"

Svarupa Damodar: "The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material".

Srila Prabhupada: "He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies." .Svarupa Damodar’s website

Many believe we are 'literally' living individual sparks in some effulgence, believing we are actual atoms or molecules in the living impersonal Brahmajyoti that is really only an aspect or secondary characteristic of jiva tatastha known as the nitya-baddha consciousness.

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our "Old" consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally.

The correct understanding of even using the word 'seed form' that really means that our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within the eternal imperishable realm Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words 'we' are already there and we just have to become 'Krishna consciously pure enough to realize it'

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

So what is the marginal living entity (jiva tatastha)? What is the jiva soul? What is the nitya-siddha perpetual body? What is nitya-baddha consciousness? What is tatastha? What is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman?

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha Krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Tatastha s'akti therefore refers to the jiva soul's sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have 'our' identity, personality, individuality and desires that are in the category of marginal, which is situated in an independent realm that is subject to superior (Vaikuntha) and inferior (mahat-tattva) CHOICE that our own way of thinking exists eternally.

We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place, plane or area of living 'sparks and atoms' in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation as some 'plain sheet' of dormant individual consciousness.

The correct understanding is we are eternally under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable Vaikunthas (Serving Lord Krishna perpetually as ones eternal nitya-siddha body), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva's ethereal and biological vessels)

This is an important point for all of us to understand.

Therefore jiva tatastha refers to us, the marginal living entity that is presently in the baddha-jiva covered condition that is further contained by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels) that covers our 'awareness’ of our nitya siddha body, which is the full expression, or potential of the jiva-tatastha

Srila Prabhupada – "Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they never leave Vaikuntha, they only 'think' they are fallen or 'dream' they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down". Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – "So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second". Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

The jiva tatastha certainly does not originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

At present, due to being in the material creation, the marginal living entity is manifested as the jiva baddha soul that can also manifest dormantly or inactively in a dreaming dreamless consciousness state that becomes another spark of living individual light that makes up the impersonal Brahman

This living force (the secondary baddha-jiva consciousness) is projected from the greater (personal) Brahmajyoti (the Spiritual Sky of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana) where the living entities eternal nitya siddha svarupa body is eternally manifest.

 

Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea of impersonal origins and personal told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness that is facilitated by Maha-Vishnu, which is true but only after we have come down from Goloka.

There is an example where the shastra states our origin within is from the body of Maha Vishnu. However, what that really means is we may enter that dormant condition within His body only AFTER we have used our free will to leave Goloka, enter the material world, become exhausted materially, then enter His body in a suspended state on consciousness. Or the baddha-jiva may enter the ‘inactive’ Brahmajyoti effulgence.

 

The point is, one does not leave Goloka as their perpetual body, because that is not possible due to the ‘eternal present’,

 

The fact is, the living entity comes down to the material world via dreams and thoughts that manifest as a sub-conscious projection called the nitya-baddha consciousness.

No marginal living entity (jivas) originates from the body of Maha-Vishnu or the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

Technically, there is no origin to the jivas or living entities because they all have an eternal bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is there without beginning or end.

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban

 

[Sarva gattah]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by suchandra

 

Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Srila Prabhupada - 'Why God gave to man free will if He knew the man would fall down in the material world?

Srila Prabhupada - If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must be, must have free will. But don’t misuse your free will. But don’t try to become stone. That is not life. August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm)

Srila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will".

Srila Prabhupada - "Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then"?

Srila Prabhupada - "If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will".

Devotee - He says that free will can be essentially eliminated. He says you no longer have the choice to be agreeable or not agreeable.

Srila Prabhupada - "No. That is not possible. That is another foolishness".

Swedish guest: -"Is there free wil"?

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, yes. Just like you are sitting here. If you don’t like, you can go away. That’s your free will. There is free will".

Srila Prabhupada - "Because we are part and parcel of God, God is completely free to do anything. And because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we have got minute quantity of freedom".

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like a drop of ocean water, it is also salty, but the quantity of salt in that drop is not equal to the salt in the ocean. Similarly, you have got a little quantity of freedom, but not as freedom as God has got. That is not possible.

You are subordinate.

Your freedom is subordinate to God’s freedom. Therefore, if you misuse your freedom, then you become punishable.

The government gives you freedom, but if you misuse your freedom, if you violate the laws, then you are criminal. Yes"? Stockholm, September 10, 1973

[realist]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>

 

The creation of the Dreaming for the Dreaming

 

 

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only dream, think and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva creation.

 

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time, just like when the concept of mundane time changes while one is dreaming.

 

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka and the eternal relationship they have with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state, that has entered the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu, then taking on the identity of one of His material bodily creations, never existed.

 

On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Sarva gattah]

It is important to REALIZE that Goloka is a pure devotional place where perpetual loving service to Krsna, happens within the 'eternal present', devoid of past, future, decay and bodily absentees – every living entity is represented there by their permanent ‘svarupa’ body (Also known as the Siddha-jiva) of whom is them without beginning or end

The material world, on the other hand, actually has NO ‘present’ at all;there is only past, future, decay, and impermanence.

The mahat-tattva is where the living entities can ‘sub-consciously’ project themselves and experience their own dreamed-up manifestation, created by their own thoughts and dreams.

This secondary consciousness, which cannot exist or be expressed in bodily form in Goloka, is called the baddha-jiva.

Entering the material world therefore, is not a change of bodies, but rather a change of consciousness where the baddha-jiva is given bodily form by Maha-Vishnu in the restricted realm of past and future where the repercussions is a universe that is perishable and temporary.

The ‘eternal present’ means exactly that, ones ‘svarupa’ body is always in Goloka even if one is dreaming they are in the mahat-tattva..