How have we fallen in this material world?

[CCC]

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur in jiava dharma chapter 15 says that the spirit soul has a form from the begining (arms, legs, head, etc like the lord)

 

 

...so it is not impersonal and our spiritual bodies are just covered right now, our spiritual body is not waiting for us in the spiritual world, is covered

[krsna]

Please help me to get the hell outta here!

[bija]

wait for me.....................>>>>>>>

[Sarva gattah]

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur in jiava dharma chapter 15 says that the spirit soul has a form from the begining (arms, legs, head, etc like the lord)

 

 

...so it is not impersonal and our spiritual bodies are just covered right now, our spiritual body is not waiting for us in the spiritual world, is covered

 

Krishna’s subsidiary or marginal living entities make Him all inclusive and all pervading like the sun and the sunrays, yet both Krishna and His marginal potency of living beings always remain individual persons, as forever originally ever fresh authentic perpetual persons in/as their transcendental svarupa bodies.

When there is total selfless devotion to Krsna, one realizes this is who ALL marginal living beings really are, and have always been, and will always be for eternity.

As far as thinking we come from the impersonal Brahmajyoti is concerned, this is answered as follows -

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayuyja (the impersonal aspect of Brahman) thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishnahttp://vedabase.

[krsna]

Srila Prabhupada In Line with Srila Prabhupada Sarasvati Thakura

BY: RADHAVALLABHA DASA

 

Jul 11, USA (SUN) — I was very glad to read Abhay Caran Prabhu's article, "Falling From the Spiritual World". Not that knowing that I came from the brahmajyoti is more important to me than knowing that I have to go to the spiritual world. But I appreciate his bold endeavour to rectify a common misunderstanding.

 

There is something called guru-parampara, a spiritual succession of teachers that preserves and preaches the message of God. The guru's coming in that succession may be different from each other in details concerning, e.g., external appearance of Vaisnavas (beard or no beard), ways of preaching (adjusting to time, place, circumstances), use of language ("obeisances" or "pranams"), etcetera. But the origin of the souls will not be different because one person happens to be a devotee in America and another person is a devotee living in India or elsewhere. And it is not that the jivas in Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura's time fell from the brahmajyoti and now, 100 years later, they fall from Goloka Vrindavana.

 

To my understanding, nowadays' ISKCON is the only branch of Gaudiya Vaisnavism that propagates the idea of souls falling from the spiritual world. Without compiling a book of quotes and just to keep it simple, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada would be philosophically disconnected from his guru, Srila Prabhupada Sarasvati Thakura, who maintained the conception of jivas coming from the tatastha-sakti and chosing to enter either the spiritual world or material world by their free will.

 

Abhay Caran Prabhu already gave nice evidence for the souls to come from the brahman effulgence, or tatastha-sakti of the Lord. This is the conclusion of all our Gaudiya Vaisnava Acaryas, and being a most qualified Acarya, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada taught the same conclusion, although in certain circumstances he might have presented siddhanta in an apparently different way, according to his audience.

 

To clarify my point for the readers of this article, if Srila Prabhupada said that the jivas never fell from the spiritual world and at some other instances he seemed to have said that the jivas did fall from the spiritual world, there may be an appearant contradiction.

 

But if -- starting with Srila Prabhupada's own guru -- the general conception of the Gaudiya Vaisnava Acaryas is that the jivas came from the tatastha-sakti, then why do certain devotees oppose these acaryas and promote the misconception of falling from Vaikuntha?

 

Why not see Srila Prabhupada through the eyes of the parampara, rather than cutting Srila Prabhupada off the parampara by presenting him as having different teachings than the previous Acaryas?

 

Let's maintain Srila Prabhupada's dignity of being a true representative of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya. Respect him as an Acarya being in line with the previous Acaryas, and do not disrespect the previous Acaryas by indirectly saying "they are wrong because our Prabhupada is right".

• 
  
  "Tatastha has both the power of associating with temporal as well as eternal planes. Souls who have got their stations at Tatastha have got free will. Each of the individual souls by exercising his free will can abuse or purposely use his independence. He has got two different directions. He may choose one of these for his stage. When he is in an enjoying mood and considers himself identical with the predominating Object or the Absolute he is said to be fallen, and when he shows an aptitude for serving the Transcendental Predominating Object, he is freed from the clutches of limitation and is eternally associated in serving the Predominating object. The souls in the Tatastha position are not one, but many in number. They are not to associate themselves with unalloyed Cit-sakti or unalloyed Acit-sakti or Maya-sakti. In Tatastha position souls do not show any activity but they are found to be in an indolent state."
  (From Immanent and Transcendent by Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura)
  

Your servant,

Radhavallabha dasa

[Svarupa]

 

 

• "Tatastha has both the power of associating with temporal as well as eternal planes. Souls who have got their stations at Tatastha have got free will. Each of the individual souls by exercising his free will can abuse or purposely use his independence. He has got two different directions. He may choose one of these for his stage. When he is in an enjoying mood and considers himself identical with the predominating Object or the Absolute he is said to be fallen, and when he shows an aptitude for serving the Transcendental Predominating Object, he is freed from the clutches of limitation and is eternally associated in serving the Predominating object. The souls in the Tatastha position are not one, but many in number. They are not to associate themselves with unalloyed Cit-sakti or unalloyed Acit-sakti or Maya-sakti. In Tatastha position souls do not show any activity but they are found to be in an indolent state."
  (From Immanent and Transcendent by Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura)

Your servant,

Radhavallabha dasa

 

The above is a misunderstanding of tatastha by Radhavallabha dasa.

 

 

The following is from the Book - 'The real meaning of tatastha s'akti and the jiva soul's 'eternal' origin" according to the divine teachings of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

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The creation of the Dreaming for the Dreaming

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974

 

This is the fact according to Srila Prabhupada that rejects the nonsense 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin or plain sheet of consciousness' theory where one can choose Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva, as many in the Gaudiya matha and their followers teach.

 

They have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe this impersonal nonsense origin of the jiva.

 

They impersonally describe tatastha to be our original state that is on the border, inbetween the land and the ocean (meaning Goloka and the material world) Their understanding is completely wrong and rejected by Srila Prabhupada

They do not undertand the concept of the 'eternal present', where the full possible bodily expression and potential of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual ‘present’ of Goloka.

We, the Jiva tatastha (simply meaning we have the free will to choose) are expressed there as who we really are without the concept of past or future, that makes us imperishable in our endless body, ALWAYS within that realm of the perpetual ‘presents’.

The eternal present or the forever 'now' found only in Goloka. What is there, is ALWAYS there, meaning we are in Goloka now even though we are dreaming we are in the material creation of past and future.

It is there in Goloka or Krsnaloka our perpetual identity, personality and individuality is endlessly serving beautiful Krishna as our perpetual ‘svarupa’ body (nitya siddha), even if we sometimes forget that fact and 'dream' or 'think' we are in the material world.

 

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only dream, think and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva creation.

 

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time, just like when the concept of mundane time changes while one is dreaming.

 

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka and the eternal relationship they have with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state, that has entered the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu, then taking on the identity of one of His material bodily creations, never existed.

 

On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

 

It is important to REALIZE that Goloka is a pure devotional place where perpetual loving service to Krsna, happens within the 'eternal present', devoid of past, future, decay and bodily absentees – every living entity is represented there by their permanent ‘svarupa’ body (Also known as the Siddha-jiva) of whom is them without beginning or end

The material world, on the other hand, actually has NO ‘present’ at all;there is only past, future, decay, and impermanence.

The mahat-tattva is where the living entities can ‘sub-consciously’ project themselves and experience their own dreamed-up manifestation, created by their own thoughts and dreams.

This secondary consciousness, which cannot exist or be expressed in bodily form in Goloka, is called the baddha-jiva.

Entering the material world therefore, is not a change of bodies, but rather a change of consciousness where the baddha-jiva is given bodily form by Maha-Vishnu in the restricted realm of past and future where the repercussions is a universe that is perishable and temporary.

The ‘eternal present’ means exactly that, ones ‘svarupa’ body is always in Goloka even if one is dreaming they are in the mahat-tattva..

 

 

What is nitya baddha BODILESS consciousness? What is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman?

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather, a dormant state of bodiless consciousness the marginal living entities or souls, in the baddha-jiva condition, go once they free themselves from the ethereal and biological material bodies, provided by Maha-Vishnu FROM within his mahat-tattva creation.

However this place is also just a further dream state separate from the mahat-tattva the marginal living entity enters (as baddha-jiva dream manifestation) and is also a temporary state of consciousness one enters.

This motionless individual inactive dreamless baddha-jiva consciousness within the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, can also be active or energetic in the mahat-tattva (material creation)

This nitya-baddha inferior self, or the secondary dreaming state of the marginal living entity, is actually a bodiless condition of the jiva until it is provided bodily form or a vessel for expressing their desires, provided by Maha Vishnu within his dream creation.

This nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness is the inferior dreaming condition that all marginal living entities can activate if they choose to use their free will to ‘dream’ of self importance and indulgence.

Srila Prabhupada- "There are many energies, but they have been divided into three principal ones: the external energy, the internal energy, and the marginal energy. We living entities are the marginal energy. Marginal means that we may remain under the influence of the external energy or we may remain under the influence of the internal energy, as we like". From "The Journey of Self Discovery - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

In other words, the marginal living entities secondary conscious projection is known as the baddha-jiva soul within the maha-tattva.

The marginal living entity actually has two aspects of consciousness; one is 'eternal form' of sat, cit, ananda, Vigraha or ones perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form (nitya-siddha) that is imperishable and never fades away, due to being eternally established within the 'eternal present' of Goloka, while the other is a non-Krishna conscious dreaming bodiless state (nitya-baddha)

The living entities, as their nitya-siddha body, are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy as a perpetual bodily servant that is known as ones perpetual 'Svarupa'.

When the marginal living entity misuses their independence and tries to act as enjoyers or lords; they are transferred to the material energy or mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body, but rather, as a secondary dreaming consciousness called nitya-baddha.

The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external and marginal.

 

The living entities do not only belong to the marginal energy, they ARE the marginal energy or tatastha sakti that is embodied in their original full constitutional foundation, which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position.

Tatastha simply means the ability to choice the land and the ocean or Goloka and the mahat-tattva. The marginal is therefore known as "tatastha sakti"

The nitya-baddha consciousness is the result of the jiva-tatastha executing its dormant free will to choose between Krsna and their own plans of existence. When the baddha-jiva lower self enters a dormant inactive state of consciousness, they can only enter the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, ONLY after being liberated from the mahat-tattva, which is really and factually the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, or their own individual consciousness.

That means, although we are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy in our ‘svarupa’ body eternally beyond mundane time and space, we always have the propensity to misuse our independence.

This means we may choose to try and act as enjoyers or lords of all we purvey that immediately disqualifies us from being aware of our ‘svarupa’ body, and instead try to lord it over Krishna’s material energy that is under the jurisdiction of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

 

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. ". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

 

 

 

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[Svarupa]

 

 

[Laxmi.B.Hiremath]

Hi friend I belive that We have already come here on this earth we shoud focus on how can we come out fo this?

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

Hi friend I belive that We have already come here on this earth we shoud focus on how can we come out fo this?

 

 

Yes, that is what Srila Prabhupada has taught us.

 

The Crow-and-Fruit Philosophy

To illustrate the uselessness of arguing about where the soul fell from, Srila Prabhupada gave the example of the crow and the fruit of an Indian palm, the tal fruit in a letter send to his Australian devotees in 1972.

 

I was personally there as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada when Madhudvisa 'Swami' received that letter that resulted from a debate that happened on our Travelling Hare Krsna Bus as we toured the nation in July 1972 preaching the message of Caitanya Maha Prabhu.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way in that letter - On the top of a tree was a nice tal fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some learned scholars saw this and began discussing.

 

The fruit fell because the crow shook the limb, one said. No, said another, as the crow was landing the fruit happened to fall. This frightened the crow, so the crow flew away. No, said a third, the fruit was ripe, and the weight of the crow’s landing broke the fruit from the branch… .

“What is the use of such discussion?” Srila Prabhupada said.

"Whether we came from Krishna’s pastimes or from some other spiritual source, Srila Prabhupada said, “at the present you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [to Krishna], never mind what is your origin.”

“At the present moment you are in Maya’s clutches,” he wrote, “so our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back to home, back to Godhead.”

Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic, Srila Prabhupada advised. “Now the fruit is there. Take it and enjoy.”

NOTE: The letters from Srila Prabhupada quoted in this article appear at greater length in Srila Prabhupada Siksamrta, Volume Two, pages 1157–1176.

[weallshineon]

interesting read

[bhaktajan]

Originally Posted by Sarva gattha:

Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

 

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

 

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Sarva gattha Prabhu, your statement is all inclusive and sublime.

Godbless you for these meditations of yours.

 

They are definitive here in your supra-excellent example of such advanced mastery of the english language to capture the innate logic you've coined for the benefit of all sentient beings.

 

Jai Sri Sri Radha Vrindavana Chandra Ki Jai!

 

Please archive them and condense them for posterity.

 

Bhaktajan

[Narasingh]

 

Is Golok a black hole? After all, nothing can come out of a black hole too.

I have seen this topic so many times that I thought of having some fun.

No, No, No, The black holes of the universe are the skin pores of MahaVishnu breathing in. Goloka is far from there

[Beggar]

The last paragraph of Bhagavad Gita As It Is, by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada :

In this present day, man is very eager to have one scripture, one God, one religion, and one occupation. So let there be one common scripture for the whole world--Bhagavad-gita. And let there be one God only for the whole world--Sri Krsna. And one mantra only--Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. And let there be one work only--the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

And let there be only one topic on Audarya Fellowship, Spiritual Discussions, "How have we fallen into this Material World?" (Added by The Committee For Spiritual Suicide)

 

[bija]

let there be one more discussion (at least) please. ooops, I meant to say topic.

 

I am beginning to wonder. What role does religion play in the coming age...

 

cheers:eek4:

 

 

beware the body and faith snatchers...and the soft shoe shufflers...

beware of darkness...

where angels fear to tread...

[Sarva gattah]

 

No, No, No, The black holes of the universe are the skin pores of MahaVishnu breathing in. Goloka is far from there

 

 

And let there be only one topic on Audarya Fellowship, Spiritual Discussions, "How have we fallen into this Material World?" (Added by The Committee For Spiritual Suicide)

 

Both of you, don't be so judgemental and frivolously fearfully sarcastic, just because you cannot comprehend, it does not mean others cannot as well

Also, if one reads this, that is their choice, realization IS a personal understanding of knowledge to share with who ever is interested.

Even Srila Vyasa had ALL the knowledge of how the material creation works, but still had one thing missing (pure loving selfless humble devotion to Krsna) and that why he recited the Srimad Bhagavatam.

Don't fool yourself Beggar Prabhu, there are many advanced devotees on this website, and many fallen rascals as well (like me, and everyone knows it for real). Krsna’s mercy is very personal though and beyond our judgemental ideas of what we think of others and what we think they know, have realized, and deserve.

Have you ever thought that it is possible to even get Closer to God due to the fall downs and mistakes we may have made? The present version of ISKCON cannot understand this causeless wonderful mercy of Lord Caitanya and Prabhupada yet, who can show us for real, WE ARE NOT THIS MATERIAL BODY.

Our realizations begin there. If we are NOT a perpetual bodily form then what are we? To think we come from an inactive state or impersonal position of clear consciousness is impersonalism.

Our nitya siddha or svarupa body IS who are eternally even if we forget that ‘eternal bodily self’ and dream we are nitya baddha if we choose’

It is the nitya baddha dream state, that is the impersonal aspect of the jiva tattva's marginal identity, that can come from a plain sheet of inactive individual consciousness on the atomic ember echelon (that all are collectively the impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of Krsna’s creation), ONLY AFTER FIRST experiencing the falling down to material dream bodies or vessels within the material world which is the Maha tattva dream of Maha Vishnu.

I am my body just like Krishna. I am sat cit ananda vigraha always have been and always will be.

I am not a material body even though I most often think I am. That is my confusion, misidentification, ahankara or fall. The impersonal Brahmajyoti is not some place in the creation; it is a state of the individual consciousness of the jiva tattva.

This is the correct understanding of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s teachings.

Srila Prabhupada:

· "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness."

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

 

"You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream".

 

Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

 

 

"Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all".

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

 

"You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".

 

Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

 

 

"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)".

 

Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

 

 

"This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream".

Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are. Everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

 

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as one's eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as one's material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones 'svarupa' body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

 

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is locked and secured perpetually within the 'eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality' that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become 'aware' of their full potential 'svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

· "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago."

Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

 

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way: "There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained".

· "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha".

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

 

"You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. .

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay

 

 

"Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi".

 

Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban

 

 

"Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna".

Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur:

· "However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas."

Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

Srila Prabhupada:

· "Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si-… That is called svarupa-siddhi.

Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban

I have began to realize the difference between the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka, that has no past or future and the material creation, that has no ‘present’, only past and future. Many have realized that if Goloka is an eternal imperishable place, then we are there right now and always have been there, we just have to realize and stop 'dreaming' we are in the material creation.

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The following is the final proof, as clearly explained by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, that all jiva/souls or marginal living entities are originally (Which means eternally when referring to the Kingdom of God), are actually serving Krishna perpetually, as their full devotional bodily form, right at this very moment.

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However, presently, due to the free will and choice all marginal living entities have, some have chosen to forget their real eternal vigraha (form) svarupa (devotional body) that is always present in Krsnaloka, just like one forgets their present biological body while dreaming.

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This means all living entities have an imperishable bodily form called ‘svarupa’ which is the full potential and expression of their character eternal present in Goloka even if they are ‘dreaming or thinking’ they are in the material creation (mahat tattva).

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Many have laughed when told their existence in the material world is just the dream state they have created.

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However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find it is ALL their dream ONLY EXPERIENCED by 'entering' unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu –

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Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

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Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

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Srila Prabhupada - “Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”. Bhagavad-gita, Introduction

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Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being.has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one’s constitutional position. Bhagavad-gita, Introduction. .”

[Narasingh]

Whatever gets you to surrender, friend.

 

 

ye yatha mam prapadyante

tams tathaiva bhajamy aham

mama vartmanuvartante

manusyah partha sarvasah

 

 

As much as you say one thing there will be someone to say another. Interpretations will be provided as well. After all, when one who searches in depth comes across Bhagavan Sri Krishna's statement:

 

 

avyakto 'ksara ity uktas

tam ahuh paramam gatim

yam prapya na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

 

 

they will ask for a harmonization of your stance and His. How will you harmonize it? Will you say Krishna is wrong? How will one know of the Value and Glory of the Vaikuntha Realm as the Ultimate Destination when you are stating quite the opposite [that we are attracted to the material realm in a stronger way so as to leave Vaikuntha; that the pull of our "dream" is greater than the pull of True Existence]?

I have to ask you, rhetorically, what color is Krishna? What kind of Body does He have which can accommodate interchangeable senses. What kind of Body do you have? Perhaps I was a little frivolous in my comment regarding "black holes" due to my deficiency of praman in this regard. However, this was in response to Avinash's post of Goloka being a black hole. Black holes are described in physics as a material vacuum where even light radiation cannot be untrapped. This is akin to the descriptions of material pralaya so I was just offering a different perspective which would be more in context of the happenings of a black hole. I don't know how you came up with the other adjectives though. Did I really appear that way?

 

"Whether we came from Krishna’s pastimes or from some other spiritual source, Srila Prabhupada said, “at the present you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [to Krishna], never mind what is your origin.”

 

This quote is clearly the most appropriate response and it shows Srila Prabhupada's mood of delivery; Whatever it takes to catalyze your surrender take. A dynamic, harmonious approach is always a good stand to take when one finds contradictory statements.

 

Satyam eva Jayate!

[Narasingh]

 

let there be one more discussion (at least) please. ooops, I meant to say topic.

 

I am beginning to wonder. What role does religion play in the coming age...

 

Great topic bija! Start a thread!

[bija]

already have... http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/450766-one.html

 

...it has very little to do with gaza strip...or maybe it does.

 

general ramblings ofcourse.

 

 

[Beggar]

 

 

...don't be so judgemental and frivolously fearfully sarcastic, just because you cannot comprehend, it does not mean others cannot as well

Come on Sarva it's not like you're really satisfied by crow and tal fruit logic, you are promoting the "We are Dreaming From Goloka Faction". Canvassing and canvassing for new converts! What does it matter if we meet Krsna for first time or meet Him again -- it will be as if we have known Him for eternity, the end is the same.

The variegated theological-siddhantic constructs given by the acaryas on only appoximations of eternal reality that we read in our languages that are bound by material time. Even if we read the sanskrit we would not have the realization or experience by reading or even hearing. And besides why would we want to re-experiece our original fall or our original indescretion that led to our dreaming from lifetime to lifetime. The goal is to be reinstated in our original swaupa and should be the focus -Oh, oh, but thats not allowed lest we fall into sahiyaism. But maybe endless and continual wrangling about the nuances of siddhanta is another big trap! If we could only be trnadapi sunicena, then we could continuously chant the Holy Name!

[holkapolka-]

Many elders claim that the truth shines. What a person has from within comes outwards, either through the eyes, the tounge, the face expression, the body movment and so on. If you see closely the tiger for exampel wants a land area domination, well, their skin colour is same as their earth, that beeng therefor an exampel of the statment above.

 

If you see at us, both humans and animals, you will notice the same forms, thereby understanding the impersonalism of ourselves, so self realization is the only means forward escape and this is attained by many through realization of the trancedentual Krishna. One should though be cautious that one does not fall into the trap of false prestige like other yogies have by reading the vedic litterature and seeking to attain different planets through what these planets have to offer without ones inner self beeng interested in the planets quality but just for the purpose and results of attaining. One should therefore seek always to find ones true inner interests, beeng thereby happy one locates ones personal self easier.

[Sarva gattah]

PRABHUPADA SAID IN MAYAPUR 'TRY AND UNDERSTAND WE ARE now WITH KRSNA!

 

 

 

Temporary but real is the meaning of illusion when referring to the material creation and the nitya baddha sub-conscious DREAM state extension of the marginal living entity.

 

This secondary self (nitya-baddha) is a living holographic counterfeit projection of the living entity that enables one to enter the mahat-tattva whenever they choose to forget who they really are in Goloka NITYA-SIDDHA).

 

Falling sub-consciously is just as real as being in Vaikuntha, but temporary and ones situation and the bodily vessel they possess, eventually always fades due to decay, and attempt to fulfil their dreams to achieve anything they want, hence, you can have anything, it just may take you a billion life times in the mahat-tattva to achieve it.

A projection, hologram, dreaming or telecasting thoughts to the mahat-tattva, whatever it takes to explain we are dreaming from our marginal identity that’s full potential and permanent bodily identity(nitya-siddha) is in Goloka

And then it fades and becomes as if it never was, just like an illusion, moving on again within the cycle of birth and death.

"This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.4.29.83.

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

The majority of the marginal living entities or jivas, who are naturally ALL devotees of Krishna in their full potential, never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be compromised or covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious cloud or dream state that all living entities can activate, due to their unique free will and abilty to choose.

Such erroneous self centred desires and dreams only place them in the transitory mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. The living entities natural constitution and perpetual position is serving Krishna, or one of His Vishnu tattva expansions in Goloka or Vaikuntha as nitya-siddha.

Therefore most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha. Such inconceivable statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate % of a % in an endless Spiritual creation?

So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine, think or dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY THAT NEVER LEAVES GOLOKA. Most living entities therefore never enter the world of imagination (the mahat-tattva) and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore it is only due to the cloud covering (the baddha-jiva dreaming sub-conscious state of the living entity) we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada often emphasized the dream-like quality of our mayik existence because it is simply the dreaming condition of the marginal living entity as their secondary non Krishna Conscious jiva-baddha state.

Once we awakened to the real spiritual nature of our consciousness, which is eternally in Goloka as nitya-siddha, the dream-like mayik existence created by our baddha-jiva consciousness will dissolve like the sunlight dissipates the darkness

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada clearly says we in the material condition of existence, is just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position.

There are two states of existence called nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state of is eternally in a Krishna Conscious bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self, while the non-free state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that creates the various dream identities.

The nitya-baddha state is only activated when the marginal living entity or jiva-soul chooses to forget their perpetual original identity as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

This eternal abode of Krishnas is beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the maha-tattva and is the genuine Kingdom of God way beyond the heavenly world within the mahat-tattva (material creation).

Srila Prabhupada - "Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition". - Letter, June 13, 1970.

Srila Prabhupada - "The conditioned living being has forgotten his eternal relationship with God and he has mistakenly accepted the temporary place of birth as all-in-all... The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." (Sri Isopanisad 11)

Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and ALL spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]

Srila Prabhupada - "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse”. Lecture washington DC Temple 1976

"This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.4.29.83.

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

1. We can confidently say that the soul is constitutionally the eternal servant of Krishna. (Nitya-siddha)

2. The jiva soul has minute independence. (That allows their nitya-baddha consciousness)

3. The jiva soul, although eternally the servant of Krishna, is eternally jiva tatastha that is not a place or plain, but the position of the marginal living entity that means one can always choose between the Vaikuntha and the mahat-tattva material energies (that can lead to a further choice of entering the dormant Brahman effulgence.

4. The jiva soul that exercises its independence properly remains with Krishna.

5. The jiva soul that misuses its independence is placed in the material world.

6. Such conditioned souls can be said to be eternally conditioned, because the inner event that led to their conditioning took place outside the material time, with its divisions of past, present, and future, so originally all living entities are eternally nitya-siddha.

"The Lord tells Uddhava that his question is unnecessary because the soul is never really bound by the material nature. It is simply an illusion to think that the material body, which is created by the influence of the three modes of material nature, is the self. Only due to such illusion does the living entity suffer, just as one experiences distress in a dream.

Of course, material nature is not an illusion—it actually exists, just as the living entities also exist, both being potencies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

It is the dream that he is a part of the material nature that constitutes the illusion of the living entity. Thus, the soul is never actually bound because his existence is always superior to that of matter”. Commentary (Srila Vishvanatha Cackravarti Thakur)

Where there is light, darkness does not exist

Similarly, when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.

Therefore ones svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna and not even aware that their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness even exists because factually it does not exist if one is fully Krishna conscious.

So it is due to the marginal living entitles non-Krishna conscious desires that ones secondary dreaming conscious characteristic of their marginal identity enters the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

This is made possible by ones choice to use their God given free will not to be with or remember Krishna as their devotional nitya-siddha form or body.

Such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness known as the nitya-baddha lower self’ to the temporary material manifestation known as the mahat-tattva, where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by Maha-Vishnu, the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka,

We all can enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation however; no one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation.

We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva (material creation)

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Question – “Could this mean as our nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness dissipates, as the awareness of our nitya-siddha body is gradually re established and realized?”

Answer – “Yes, through our Krishna Conscious endeavour and selfless humble service, even while we are so called 'eternally conditioned' (nitya-baddha consciousness), our pathway back home can begin.

In this way while confined or trapped in our dreaming nitya-baddha comatose consciousness, we all have the opportunity to again re-establish our Krishna Conscious bodily active devotional self in our original perpetual position as nitya-siddha.

This fullness of the marginal living entity is a transcendental body without beginning or end blossoming within the devotional personal pastimes of Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna or Vishnu beyond mundane time and space.

The mundane realm is outside the Personal active pastimes of Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha. Such impermanence is only found within both the temporary mahat-tattva and also within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (Brahma-sayuyja etc).

In this way all living entities are originally nitya-siddha and have a perpetual bodily form serving Krishna”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

[Narasingh]

It looks like you must have the Folio, SarvaGatah. I'm sorry, I'm with Beggar on this. Cheers

[Sarva gattah]

 

It looks like you must have the Folio, SarvaGatah. I'm sorry, I'm with Beggar on this. Cheers

 

Thank you, K, and YOU follow his ideas on this subject as well - makes sense.

 

Hare Krsna

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The real teacher of Bhakti-Vedanta

 

 

So stop listening to the nonsense we came from the impersonal portion of the Brahmajyoti. This offensive idea only pollutes all new seekers of truth

Our eternal father Krishna that we ALL long, long, long ago, had memories of always being with, is certainly not a clear bright impersonal light.

It is not only offensive to think that way, but also an insult to the personal form of Krishna.

 

We are eternally OUR eternal nitya-siddha bodily form, that we have presently forgot

 

Also nonsense fear tactics of being called all kinds of names were used to shut us up for years in the then bogus version of ISKCON by the 'proud' so-called guru's and sanyasis of that 'cult' mentality time of imitators and pretending.

 

To be a LITTLE version Prabhupada

 

They treated us like mushrooms by feeding our brains cow dung to keep us subservient, brain-dead and just do what they tell you to do and think what they tell you to think.

 

In the same way –

Stop believing the nonsense from other camps we originate from a plain sheet of consciousness from the impersonal portion of the Brahmajyoti!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ranjeetmore]

where is my post ?