How have we fallen in this material world?

[ranjeetmore]

Anyway,

Please show a statement of SP directly including these points.

 

"The jeevatma has a form."

"The jeevatma is now situated in Goloka and dreaming that it is in mahat tattva."

 

If he has said statements bearing the above exact meanings,i shall accept the completely unsupported theory of falldown.

[Sarva gattah]

 

PRABHUPADA SAID IN MAYAPUR 'TRY AND UNDERSTAND WE ARE now WITH KRSNA!

 

 

 

Temporary but real is the meaning of illusion when referring to the material creation and the nitya baddha sub-conscious DREAM state extension of the marginal living entity.

 

This secondary self (nitya-baddha) is a living holographic counterfeit projection of the living entity that enables one to enter the mahat-tattva whenever they choose to forget who they really are in Goloka NITYA-SIDDHA).

 

Falling sub-consciously is just as real as being in Vaikuntha, but temporary and ones situation and the bodily vessel they possess, eventually always fades due to decay, and attempt to fulfil their dreams to achieve anything they want, hence, you can have anything, it just may take you a billion life times in the mahat-tattva to achieve it.

A projection, hologram, dreaming or telecasting thoughts to the mahat-tattva, whatever it takes to explain we are dreaming from our marginal identity that’s full potential and permanent bodily identity(nitya-siddha) is in Goloka

And then it fades and becomes as if it never was, just like an illusion, moving on again within the cycle of birth and death.

"This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.4.29.83.

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

The majority of the marginal living entities or jivas, who are naturally ALL devotees of Krishna in their full potential, never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be compromised or covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious cloud or dream state that all living entities can activate, due to their unique free will and abilty to choose.

Such erroneous self centred desires and dreams only place them in the transitory mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. The living entities natural constitution and perpetual position is serving Krishna, or one of His Vishnu tattva expansions in Goloka or Vaikuntha as nitya-siddha.

Therefore most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha. Such inconceivable statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate % of a % in an endless Spiritual creation?

So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine, think or dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY THAT NEVER LEAVES GOLOKA. Most living entities therefore never enter the world of imagination (the mahat-tattva) and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore it is only due to the cloud covering (the baddha-jiva dreaming sub-conscious state of the living entity) we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada often emphasized the dream-like quality of our mayik existence because it is simply the dreaming condition of the marginal living entity as their secondary non Krishna Conscious jiva-baddha state.

Once we awakened to the real spiritual nature of our consciousness, which is eternally in Goloka as nitya-siddha, the dream-like mayik existence created by our baddha-jiva consciousness will dissolve like the sunlight dissipates the darkness

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada clearly says we in the material condition of existence, is just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position.

There are two states of existence called nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state of is eternally in a Krishna Conscious bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self, while the non-free state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that creates the various dream identities.

The nitya-baddha state is only activated when the marginal living entity or jiva-soul chooses to forget their perpetual original identity as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

This eternal abode of Krishnas is beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the maha-tattva and is the genuine Kingdom of God way beyond the heavenly world within the mahat-tattva (material creation).

Srila Prabhupada - "Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition". - Letter, June 13, 1970.

Srila Prabhupada - "The conditioned living being has forgotten his eternal relationship with God and he has mistakenly accepted the temporary place of birth as all-in-all... The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." (Sri Isopanisad 11)

Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and ALL spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]

Srila Prabhupada - "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse”. Lecture washington DC Temple 1976

"This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.4.29.83.

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

1. We can confidently say that the soul is constitutionally the eternal servant of Krishna. (Nitya-siddha)

2. The jiva soul has minute independence. (That allows their nitya-baddha consciousness)

3. The jiva soul, although eternally the servant of Krishna, is eternally jiva tatastha that is not a place or plain, but the position of the marginal living entity that means one can always choose between the Vaikuntha and the mahat-tattva material energies (that can lead to a further choice of entering the dormant Brahman effulgence.

4. The jiva soul that exercises its independence properly remains with Krishna.

5. The jiva soul that misuses its independence is placed in the material world.

6. Such conditioned souls can be said to be eternally conditioned, because the inner event that led to their conditioning took place outside the material time, with its divisions of past, present, and future, so originally all living entities are eternally nitya-siddha.

"The Lord tells Uddhava that his question is unnecessary because the soul is never really bound by the material nature. It is simply an illusion to think that the material body, which is created by the influence of the three modes of material nature, is the self. Only due to such illusion does the living entity suffer, just as one experiences distress in a dream.

Of course, material nature is not an illusion—it actually exists, just as the living entities also exist, both being potencies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

It is the dream that he is a part of the material nature that constitutes the illusion of the living entity. Thus, the soul is never actually bound because his existence is always superior to that of matter”. Commentary (Srila Vishvanatha Cackravarti Thakur)

Where there is light, darkness does not exist

Similarly, when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.

Therefore ones svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna and not even aware that their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness even exists because factually it does not exist if one is fully Krishna conscious.

So it is due to the marginal living entitles non-Krishna conscious desires that ones secondary dreaming conscious characteristic of their marginal identity enters the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

This is made possible by ones choice to use their God given free will not to be with or remember Krishna as their devotional nitya-siddha form or body.

Such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness known as the nitya-baddha lower self’ to the temporary material manifestation known as the mahat-tattva, where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by Maha-Vishnu, the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka,

We all can enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation however; no one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation.

We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva (material creation)

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Question – “Could this mean as our nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness dissipates, as the awareness of our nitya-siddha body is gradually re established and realized?”

Answer – “Yes, through our Krishna Conscious endeavour and selfless humble service, even while we are so called 'eternally conditioned' (nitya-baddha consciousness), our pathway back home can begin.

In this way while confined or trapped in our dreaming nitya-baddha comatose consciousness, we all have the opportunity to again re-establish our Krishna Conscious bodily active devotional self in our original perpetual position as nitya-siddha.

This fullness of the marginal living entity is a transcendental body without beginning or end blossoming within the devotional personal pastimes of Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna or Vishnu beyond mundane time and space.

The mundane realm is outside the Personal active pastimes of Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha. Such impermanence is only found within both the temporary mahat-tattva and also within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (Brahma-sayuyja etc).

In this way all living entities are originally nitya-siddha and have a perpetual bodily form serving Krishna”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

 

Firstly Prabhupada, who gave us the correct teachings of all Vedic knowledge, can -

Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973

Secondly, you ARE one of Krishna’s eternal associates but YOU have forgotten this fact long, long, long ago, this is not easy to understand, this is why Prabhupada has explained it as follows -

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya. Actually, you are NOT conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

I recently heard a lecture by Banu Swami in Melbourne Australia, and even he cannot understand that entering Goloka or Vaikuntha, is something to be regained (he was clearly making out the jiva had never previously been with Krishna that implies we come from the impersonal Brahmajyoti) Many cannot understand this word "regained" You are not alone Beggar.

Banu Swami could not understand that being a pure devotee is the eternal svarupa of ALL living entities and that IS our eternal constitutional position, it IS something to be regained, remembered, re-established.

Banu Swami gave many devotees the wrong understanding that most of us have never been with Krishna and that the 'jiva-soul' has come from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and now must earn its right to enter Vaikuntha. This impersonal origins is NOT what Prabhupada has taught us - I did not like this aspect of his class at all even though he is a very learned humble selfless Vaishnava

We are already liberated right now, we are with Krishna right now, we just have to REMEMBER who we really are instead of living in our own baddha-jiva imaginary dream creations, Srila Prabhupada is telling us

Thirdly, most will never understand this subject no matter how expertise it is written. Without the causeless kindness and mercy of one's Spiritual Master, the origin of the jiva soul will always remain a mystery and hidden secret from them, or maybe the Spiritual Master does not reveal this such knowledge to everyone because it is not necessary for everyone to know, after all we all have different personal individual relationships with Krishna - Your quote Beggar sums this up,

"The real guru is expert at applying these apparently contradictory concepts for the correct time, place and circumstance because he has a mature, developed relationship with Krsna.

He is experiencing the real bliss of chanting the holy name of Krsna and we are all hankering after that experience.

This is what we are really after, not being right or correct about the origin of the soul question.

And besides even if we are correct, it can only be hollow words for us because we are not actually experiencing the spiritual reality".

Very well and excellently said Beggar, even Hari Sauri Prabhu (I am presently reading his books and I advice you and everyone else on this web site to get a copy of his Transcendental Diaries if you want to understand the mood of Srila Prabhupada), who I admire as one of Prabhupada's best disciples in understanding his books, would like the way you have explained this.

Hari Sauri Prabhu has told the devotees on many occasions over the years, that only our service (Bhakti) and purity can reveal the truth of Krishna Consciousness and not jnan alone

And as Beggar also wrote - "And besides even if we are correct, it can only be hollow words for us because we are not actually experiencing the spiritual reality".

"This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.4.29.83.

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

[Beggar]

Dekhite Dekhite

Srilla Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

dekhite dekhite, bhuliba va kabe, nija-sthula-paricaya

nayane heriba, vraja-pura-sobha, nitya cid-ananda-maya (1)

 

When I will forget my gross bodily identity, then I will behold the exquisite beauty of Vraja, full of eternal spiritual bliss and cognizance.

vsabhanu-pure, janama laiba, yavata vivaha ha’be

vraja-gopi…-bhava, haibe svabhava, ana bhava na rahibe (2)

 

I shall take birth in Vrsabhanu Maharaja’s town and will marry in the nearby village of Yavat. My sole disposition and nature will be that of a cowherd maiden.

nija-siddha-deha, nija-siddha-näma, nija-rupa sva-vasana

radha-krpa-bale, labhiba va kabe, krsna-prema-prakarana (3)

 

When will I obtain, by the power of Radha's mercy, my own eternal spiritual body,my own realized name and dress embellishing my real form? And when will I receive initiation into the techniques of expressing divine love for Krsna?

 

yamuna-salila-aharane giya, bujhibo yugala-rasa

prema-mugdha ha’ye, pagalini-paya, gaiba radhara yasa (4)

 

As I go to draw water from the Yamuna, I will understand the confidential mellows of Yugala-Kisora’s loving affairs. Being captivated by prema, I will sing Radhika’s glories just like a madwoman.

[Sarva gattah]

You already have and always have had a nitya-siddha body, that is fixed in Goloka. The process is regaing memory of who you really are, from whence you are dreaming this material world

from

 

The transcendental Beggar says -"Original spiritual form in Vaikuntha" means a form that exists in the "present moment". (You should be happy that we have achieved a meeting of the minds on this point.) But it doesn't mean a form, which we had in the past, then lost and will regain - although we will regain a form that always exists in the "present moment".

Answer – Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

 

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

 

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence (the ability to choose) as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence". 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

Srila Prabhupada - "All tastes are fixed up, rasa, eternal, eternal rasa. Every one of us has a different taste of associating with Krishna, and that will be realised when one is liberated.

Hansadutta: So that's fixed already.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. When you are liberated, you will understand in which way you are related with Krishna. That is called svarupa-siddhi. But that is attained when you are actually perfect in devotional service. Just like in our family we enjoy different rasas. We have got one kind of relationship with wife, one kind of relationship with sons and daughters, one kind of relationship with friends, one kind of relationship with servants, one kind of relationship with property. So similarly, Krishna... The whole creation is His family, and He has got relationship in that way. So why the son will change his relationship into husband and wife?

Hansadutta: I see.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. Because every relationship is very palatable. The gentleman, the head of the family, his relationship with wife and his relationship with servant is as much palatable. There is no question of changing. Not that "I am tasting this rasa at the present moment. Then I will get better rasas." No. That is not... Everyone thinks, "My rasa is the best." Although there is comparative gradation, but everyone thinks. These things are explained in Chaitanya-charitamrita. Why don't you see?

Hansadutta: And Nectar of Devotion.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. Everyone thinks, "My relationship with Krishna is the best."

Hansadutta: So it's not a matter of aspiring to some--

Srila Prabhupada – ‘No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Even the trees in Vrindaban, they want to serve Krishna silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their ananda. Everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When Krishna comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, 10 February 1971, Gorakhpur

[melvin]

Foremost is the soul, then the intelligence, then the mind, & the least the body. Some of as here may have reached the soul level, others the intelligence level, while the rest in the mental and physical levels. If you have finally realized you`re soul then you are liberated. Because many have died not knowing they are still situated in the intelligence level or mental level. In the soul level one does not come back to the material world whereas in the intelligence and mental levels they acquire again material bodies after death.

[Beggar]

 

..When will I

, obtain by the power of Radha's mercy, my own eternal spiritual body,my own realized name and dress embellishing my real form?

The problems of translating into a mundane language based on a material time conception are seen in this verse translation. How could one obtain what they already have, "my own eternal spiritual body" and "my own realized name?" Thus we go around and around in circles chasing our own tail, quibling about words.

 

[melvin]

 

 

The problems of translating into a mundane language based on a material time conception are see in this verse translation. How could one obtain what they already have, "my own eternal spiritual body" and "my own realized name?" Thus we go around and around in circles chasing our own tail, quibling about words.

 

 

While meditating under a tree, Narada Muni realized he is simultaneously different from Krsna and yet he feels the Lord and he are one. This is the characteristic of a self-realized soul.

[Narasingh]

The difficulty with this conversation is the notion of time and form. Mahaprabhu has stated: jiver swarup haya nitya krishna das

krishner tatastha shakti bhedabhed prakas.

Our swarup is Krishna Das and we are tatastha shakti. Will you uncover your true nature or discover your true nature? Even though the two words are close in meaning they are generally accepted to be subtley different.

[Beggar]

Will you uncover your true nature or discover your true nature? Even though the two words are close in meaning they are generally accepted to be subtley different.

Both are true ontologically, simultaneously, inconceivably one and different. But the experience of meeting Krsna is always like finding a long lost friend and the experience of His abode is one of returning home. What are we really interested in? Theoretical knowledge of every aspect of Reality or the direct experience of Reality.

[Narasingh]

Both are true ontologically, simultaneously, inconceivably one and different. But the experience of meeting Krsna is always like finding a long lost friend and the experience of His abode is one of returning home. What are we really interested in? Theoretical knowledge of every aspect of Reality or the direct experience of Reality.

You carefully steer clear of the direct controversy (at least in this immediate thread, in others I don't know) of whether the jiva fell from direct Lila to the abode of exploitative illusion or not. Does this issue fall under "theoretical knowledge"? In geometry, we are taught that the slightest variation in trajectories will lead to an exponential increase in the difference of two destinations.

[melvin]

 

You carefully steer clear of the direct controversy (at least in this immediate thread, in others I don't know) of whether the jiva fell from direct Lila to the abode of exploitative illusion or not. Does this issue fall under "theoretical knowledge"? In geometry, we are taught that the slightest variation in trajectories will lead to an exponential increase in the difference of two destinations.

 

Can you still remember what you did when you were an infant? Of course not. But certainly you laughed at the stimulus, " cuchi cuchi co, " when your parents toyed with you and cried when you wanted something. My point here is that Narada Muni considered his awakened state and the corresponding motions he made as unreal while the things that he did in the dreaming state as real.

[Sarva gattah]

 

How could one obtain what they already have, "my own eternal spiritual body" and "my own realized name?" .

 

 

You may dream you are a big King or a humble beggar, but when you wake up, you regain the memory of your present body - like that as Prabhupada would say

[Beggar]

 

You carefully steer clear of the direct controversy (at least in this immediate thread, in others I don't know) of whether the jiva fell from direct Lila to the abode of exploitative illusion or not. Does this issue fall under "theoretical knowledge"? In geometry, we are taught that the slightest variation in trajectories will lead to an exponential increase in the difference of two destinations.

It is indeed incorrect to state that "the jiva fell from direct Lila to the abode of exploitative illusion." Yet, from the angle of vision of "the present moment", it may be said that the fallen jiva is not really "fallen" but is merely "dreaming" going from one material body to another. These are different angles of vision. I do not believe that Sarva gattah has properly harmonized these two angles of vision. All the acaryas accept both. The bottom line is to understand that the eternal parishads of Krsna never fall down; And this is true although some free will exists for all souls. Such eternal parishads servitors always remain in the realm where Maha Maya's illusory powers cannot exist.

[Sarva gattah]

 

It is indeed incorrect to state that "the jiva fell from direct Lila to the abode of exploitative illusion." Yet, from the angle of vision of "the present moment", it may be said that the fallen jiva is not really "fallen" but is merely "dreaming" going from one material body to another. These are different angles of vision. I do not believe that Sarva gattah has properly harmonized these two angles of vision. All the acaryas accept both. The bottom line is to understand that the eternal parishads of Krsna never fall down; And this is true although some free will exists for all souls. Such eternal parishads servitors always remain in the realm where Maha Maya's illusory powers cannot exist.

 

There is no past or future IN Goloka, only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination.

 

Im this way, just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

 

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is fixed, eternally established and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of 'originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained” <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[Beggar]

In relation to the Material World, there is no time is the Spiritual World - no material time with its birth, death disease and old age. But just like there is spiritual sex-life there, so there is spiritual time. It is said that Srimati Radharani worshiped the time when She was with Krsna. Spiritual time is within the realm of Yoga Maya whereas material time is within the realm of

Maha Maya. Yet it is said by the acaryas that there is really only one Maya or energy and that energy has different functions. So all these ideas represent the duality of our present dream-like illusory existence and what exists beyond the maya jala or veil of illusion in the present moment. The proper harmony between these two dualities - the Krsna Conscious view from our present, relative existence or the Krsna Conscious view from eternity has been given by the Six Goswamis and their followers and is known as Gaudiya Vaisnava Siddhanta. In this siddhanta these opposites have been explained, so that future practitioners would have a guideline on how to think about these things in a favorable manner. It is never favorable for a practioner in this world (or dreaming that one is in this world) to view onself on the level of the nitya-siddha, eternal servitors of the Lord who are infallable or never fall down. It is like-wise unfavorable to think that such parishad devotees would ever even dream of leaving their rasik seva to Sri Krsna. Even if one can develop their own logic based on the reality of the "Present Moment" and come up with opposite conclusions to proper siddhanta it is really meaningless. We are discussing a topic which is far beyond the logic and reason of our "puppy brains". Without proper siddhanta there cannot be proper sambandha jnana, knowing what is what in relation to Krsna. Srila Narayana Maharaja has said that without real sambandha jnana our sadhana will not have much of an effect.

[coolrishu]

ours own desire to be here.......thats why we are here and now................

everyone is the creator of his destiny......its true

[Narasingh]

This issue seems very much related to sambandha jnana

[bija]

yeah, think so too. these are foundations to build sadhana upon. the foundations enter our heart and color it, bringing forward subtle nuances in realization...these nuances if cultivated in bhajan, eventually open the door to rasa (our true position in relationship). rather than just technical dogma in itself. instead, the bhajan becomes an intimate affair in our consciousness - krsna consciousness. our guru-marga knows this well..

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja has said that without real sambandha jnana our sadhana will not have much of an effect.

[AncientMariner]

I don't know but it is an insane asylum here for the most part. Beam me up Scotty!

[Narasingh]

 

There is no past or future IN Goloka, only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination.

 

Im this way, just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

 

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is fixed, eternally established and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of 'originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained” <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

This interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's statements seems to say that actually we are in lila but that we have a dream to be an exploiter and we are trying to act upon it.

 

Would this understanding incorporate the same sadhanas to "wake up" as the other understanding would incorporate to achieve the prayojana? Basically, we have a formula as follows. I am at Point A (sambandha), I want to get to Point B (prayojana), the path I need to travel is Line X (abhideya).

 

So what is the prayojana? What is the nature of that prayojana? Is it one in which we are not saturated with prema in which every word is a song, every step is a dance, every stone is cintamani, every tree is wish fulfilling, every cow is surabhi. I can only begin to wonder what every dream is... OOOOPS It is a miserable dream in which we suffer endlessly. (Sounds like a little salt fell in the sweet rice.) What incentive would there be for anyone to develop bhakti if they are under the impression they have it already, just that they need to wake up. The analogy of a dream can be misleading in that one must assume they will wake up from a dream with no special endeavor.

 

I'm sure Sarvah and Theist will likely qualify their analogies with need for sadhana and bhakti but this is an unnatural "argument". Afterall, I know that when I fall asleep I will wake up with no extra endeavor.

 

The Glory of Vaikuntha is in its Perfection. Even the Goswamis in their prakata forms slept very little and while sleeping, dreamt only of their Istha Devatas. They cursed their eyelids for even blinking. One would think that taking the most worshipable place as of utmost importance one would not be able to tolerate the thought of its fallibility in that regard, nor tolerate the notion that they themselves could forget Rasaraj/Mahabhava for even a moment. This mood is given authority by our Goswamis and Mahaprabhu.

[Sarva gattah]

 

I don't know but it is an insane asylum here for the most part. Beam me up Scotty!

 

The material DREAM is the insane asylum and so is scotty

 

The following is concluding confirmation, as clearly explained by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, that all jiva/souls are originally existing perpetually in their full devotional bodily form, which is the full potential and expression of all marginal living beings, that are all enclosed by the eternal ‘present’ of time and space within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka.

Within that perpetual world, all living entities are perpetually existing, which means they are always present there as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, that is an eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna. Therefore the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

No one like a cowherd boy, lays down and sleeps in Goloka, then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that.

WHY??

The cow herd boy laying down sleeping and then dreams, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state.

Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way. Within the 'eternal presents' there is only one 'concept of time' and 'one eternal nitya siddha form of each marginal living being' that is eternally present in Goloka or Krsnaloka.

What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

This sentence is very important to understand.

There is no 'laying down sleeping in Vaikuntha or Goloka, and then dreaming' ones material existence, it is not like that.

What actually happens is the non-Krishna conscious desire and imaginations happen on the sub conscious level out of sync with the 'eternal present' that is eternally existent in Goloka.

Therefore the ONLY thing that happens is that the living entity leaves the spiritual Vaikuntha atmosphere of eternal time that is devoid of past and future.

The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time. That restricted state of awareness, due to the living entities alertness being out of sync with ones natural environment of the ‘perpetual present in Krsna-loka, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates. The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness ,but rather a division of time.

In this way it is incorrect to think a nitya-siddha devotee lays down and sleeps and dreams their baddha-jiva material existence, no it is not like that.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

FALLING TO THE MATERIAL WORLD

For a living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fall down previously, long, long, long ago from Vaikuntha, as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life. Some also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own Brahman baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the impersonal aspect of their individual Brahman or nitya-siddha consciousness however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there again to the mahat-tattva or material creation to the enclosure of ethereal and biological vessels.

Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva.

[Beggar]

Its the way that Sarva gattah describes all this that is clumsy and therefore apasiddhantic. But he is really trying to describe a very deep truth; he just doesn't properly harmonize the logical contradictions. The mistake that those on the opposite end of the spectrum (on this is issue) sometimes make is to polarize the issue to the extreme, which I believe that I once was guilty of.

In one Western Math I am familiar with, they never talk about, "forgeting Krsna" or "how our material existence" IS a dream and are quick to point out that we were never with Krsna. They also are trying to describe a very deep truth in a clumsy way, but although it appears they are in harmony with siddhanta they neglect a signficant area of the transcedental ontology, unlike their gurus who for some reason they can no longer properly hear. One side is falling off the razors edge to the right and the other side is falling off to the left (and I am not refering to left-wing gopis, here). We are all falling off the razors edge of pure devotional service without any tinge of selfish desires. So this really needs to be the focus. How can we move towards this goal, that was really Srila Prabhupada's focus and the focus of all bonafide acaryas. But in our present dream-like state, we find such a topic to be boring. I know that I do. Who wants to really admit all the dirty, unwanted things in our polluted hearts. And maybe that's why we really don't have much interest in Krsna's and Mahaprabhu's lilas.

[melvin]

 

Its the way that Sarva gattah describes all this that is clumsy and therefore apasiddhantic. But he is really trying to describe a very deep truth; he just doesn't properly harmonize the logical contradictions. The mistake that those on the opposite end of the spectrum (on this is issue) sometimes make is to polarize the issue to the extreme, which I believe that I once was guilty of.

In one Western Math I am familiar with, they never talk about, "forgeting Krsna" or "how our material existence" IS a dream and are quick to point out that we were never with Krsna. They also are trying to describe a very deep truth in a clumsy way, but although it appears they are in harmony with siddhanta they neglect a signficant area of the transcedental ontology, unlike their gurus who for some reason they can no longer properly hear. One side is falling off the razors edge to the right and the other side is falling off to the left (and I am not refering to left-wing gopis, here). We are all falling off the razors edge of pure devotional service without any tinge of selfish desires. So this really needs to be the focus. How can we move towards this goal, that was really Srila Prabhupada's focus and the focus of all bonafide acaryas. But in our present dream-like state, we find such a topic to be boring. I know that I do. Who wants to really admit all the dirty, unwanted things in our polluted hearts. And maybe that's why we really don't have much interest in Krsna's and Mahaprabhu's lilas.

 

This confirms the sea is losing its salty taste.

[Narasingh]

 

Srila Prabhupada:"So you may question, “What you are? What is your position?” Our... My position is that, that under the supreme order of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in disciplic succession, I am just trying to preach this Krsna-katha. That’s all. I am not manufacturing anything. Don’t think that I have manufactured something new, Krsna consciousness. No. That is not my business. My business is just like the peon. The orderly. The message from Caitanya Mahaprabhu as it is, I am delivering. That’s all. And it is being effected because I am not adulterating in the Krsna-katha. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja; [bg. 18.66] I also say the same thing, that “You become a devotee of Krsna. You surrender to Krsna.” So there is no doubt that I am really representing the interests of Krsna because I am not adulterating. I am not misinterpreting the words of Krsna. And it is being effective."

There are numerous places where Srila Prabhupada is offering a particular view of falling from Krsna Consciousness and then there are others who are elaborating upon his position. Previously, there was a quote from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati (Prabhupada's Prabhupada) which provided a neutral canvas to these theories. However, as one analyzes the teachings which are contemporarily offered regarding the jiva's fall, in relation to the teachings of the purva acharyas, one will notice many inconsistencies (as RamanaDasi along with others have shown). I understand one's faith in Srila Prabhupada can be intense and that they are willing to surrender to him with or without the full backing of the parampara. This is admirable, yet, not a provision granted to us by Srila Prabhupada. The best way to serve is to remain chaste to the flow of knowledge and show how and where one's Guru was not starting something new but continuing the same pure message.

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Germany, June 22, 1974</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

The English word 'remember' however, is as good as the word 'regain', which Prabhupada uses in his books to descibe that our svarupa bodily form is never lost due to the 'eternal present' however, it can be forgotten due to our dreaming condition on the sub-conscious level of independant self centred desires. Such selfish self planning desires, activated by free will and choice, make us forget Krsna and the perpetual body we serve Krsna as because we want to creat our own existence in the body WE choose in a world without Krsna, in a world where we try to be the master.

In the meantime while we are chasing our dreams of self importance in our dreams that end up being within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva, our svarupa nitya-siddha body is ever fresh and in an eternal state of originality because there is only the present, which means past and future do not and can not exist.

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is eternaly established, fixed and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginningless).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides.

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (at least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, that seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha)

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet.

So we should all try to understand our original position that is our eternal identity in Krsnaloka', as Prabhupada would say’.

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka. There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', where there is no past or future, these things will be seen in another way.

What is that other way that many say is conceivable to understand?

The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in Krsnaloka.

Srila Prabhupada - “One should be humble and know that he is subordinate to the Supreme Lord. Due to rebellion against the Supreme Lord, one becomes subordinate to material nature. One must know and be convinced of this truth.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.12, purport.

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport

Srila Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” . . . - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

Srila Prabhupada - “In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport.

Srila Prabhupada -“Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia