How have we fallen in this material world?

Beggar · January 7, 2009

The Prabhupada Robot tm strikes again. Is there no defense for this program and its Evil creator, the mad scientist Gaura Gopal? Some how we must find a way to stop it. I am requesting that the best and the brightest Gaudiya Math computer scientists come together to create a technology to defeat this bold attempt to take over the world! We could create a program that could hack into severs and string together processing power to make a virtual super computer which would seek out the unwitting hosts that Sarva gattah's program Prabhupada Robottm has hacked into and disable them. Prabhus there is so much at stake here, if this insidious digital perverted reflection is allowed to continue to run amok in our virtual world, what will become of the tatastha, that point which is neither here nor there? Perhaps in the future this dangerous robotic program will find it's way into biological forms and infiltrate our very brains. Of course this assumes that we have any brains left after years of reading brain dead posts on this website. :mad2:

Narasingh · January 7, 2009

Beggar, that was hilarious . The responses by Sarvah indicate no retention or dynamic understanding. (I don't know if this is true regarding Sarvah, its just what the response indicates.) They are disproportionately long and therefore difficult to pay attention to. They offer no contextual relation and thus, can easily be misinterpreted. Given their disproportionate length, I'd wager:eek3: that most persons glaze over them. If Sarvah wants to be more efficient in his preaching, he might want to try to be a little more dynamic.

Narasingh · January 7, 2009

Prabhupada said:

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya
sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

The krishna-bhakti, our love for Krishna, is there eternally. But on account of our contamination with this material world, we have forgotten our relationship.

There is a verse in the Caitanya-caritamrita: nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya. Krishna-bhakti, your devotion for Krishna, your attachment for Krishna, is there because you are part and parcel of Krishna.

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

Just like sex impulse. It doesn’t require to, how to awaken sex impulse, natural; similarly, krishna-bhakti is our natural inheritance because we are part and parcel of Krishna, or sons of Krishna.

So Prahlada Maharaja he is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha means there are living entities, every living entity is part and parcel of Krishna, so one who does not fall down, he is called nitya-siddha. One who does not fall down. Just like in this material world there are millions and millions of living entities, but they have fallen down. But there are multi-millions and millions of living entities in the vaikuntha-loka, they never fall down. They are called nitya-siddha. They never come here.

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya
sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

Krishna-bhakti, Krishna consciousness, is in everyone’s heart, dormant. Every living entity. Because every living entity is part and parcel of Krishna. Just like a father and son, there is natural affection; it is not artificial. Even there is misunderstanding between father and the son, and if they meet at a time after many years’ misunderstanding, immediately the affection of father and son will act, immediately. Similarly, because we are part and parcel of Krishna, our affection for Krishna and Krishna’s affection for us is eternal. Krishna is more anxious to reclaim us from this miserable condition of life than we are, because we are sons of Krishna. Sarva-yonishu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah yah [bg. 14.4]. He is the father of all living entities. We are part and parcel. Therefore Krishna is very anxious. Therefore Caitanya-caritamrita kar says,

anadi bahir mukha jiva krishna bhuli gela

ataeva krishna veda purana karila

Just to remind us. Not only he has given us Vedas and Puranas to remind us that “Your position is different than you are thinking. You are thinking that you are a material product. That is illusion. Aham brahmasmi. You are brahma-vastu. You are part and parcel of Brahman...” Therefore there are so many literatures—vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [bg. 15.15]—just to draw your attention to come to Krishna. Just to draw your attention, that “You are My part and parcel. You are My eternal son. Why you are rotting in this miserable condition of life, janma-mrityu-jara-vyadhi?”

Narasingh · January 7, 2009

Hari Bol!

suchandra · January 9, 2009

Hari Bol!

Sarva gattah · January 9, 2009

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginningless).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides.

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (at least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, that seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha)

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet.

So we should all try to understand our original position that is our eternal identity in Krsnaloka', as Prabhupada would say’.

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka. There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', where there is no past or future, these things will be seen in another way.

What is that other way that many say is conceivable to understand?

The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in Krsnaloka.

Srila Prabhupada - “One should be humble and know that he is subordinate to the Supreme Lord. Due to rebellion against the Supreme Lord, one becomes subordinate to material nature. One must know and be convinced of this truth.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.12, purport.

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport

Srila Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” . . . - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

Srila Prabhupada - “In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport.

Srila Prabhupada -“Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being an eternal nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna means one never falls down, that is, their nitya siddha body never leaves Goloka. However, he also tells us that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over or forgotten by the choice to imagine your own existence without Krishna. This is just like dreaming in our present material body where we dream, or think we are King of a world, but actually, our material body has not moved

In this way Srila Prabhupada is saying that our nitya siddha or svarupa body can be covered over only and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

The highest and natural expression of the marginal living entity is realizing their full potential as their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa devotional body as already explained.

Nitya siddha bodily form, which ALL jiva tattvas already are perpetually, eternally EXISTS

Our nitya siddha body is always established in Goloka EVEN is we are dreaming in the mahat-tattva. The nitya siddha body therefore already exists and it is again realized by those who have fallen to the material world, when they again become aware of their natural pure state of REALITY, which means remembering they already are eternally liberated in Goloka serving God or Krishna.

Nitya baddha state is when we are in our unnatural impure DREAM state of TRANSITORY REALITY eternally conditioned in the mahat tattva serving ones selfish interests unaware of their PERMANENTLY REAL nitya siddha authentic self in Goloka.

The original and eternal position of all living individuals, known as the marginal living entities is their perpetual rasa (devotional mood) nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally serving Krishna in the ‘eternal present’ where there is no past or future as previously explained.

This means there is also no decay, impermanence birth, disease, old age, death and forgetfulness in the perpetual REALITY Kingdom of God known as Goloka-Vrndavana and the Vaikuntha planets.

Our nitya siddha body is always established in Goloka EVEN if we are dreaming in the mahat-tattva. The nitya siddha body therefore already exists and is again realized by those who have fallen to the material world when they again become aware of their natural pure state of REALITY, which means remembering they already are eternally liberated in Goloka serving God or Krishna as there already perpetual body.

It is those nonsense Guru's and their followers who advocate that we can never leave Goloka and take shelter in the material world.

It is them who claim the inhabitants of Goloka are 'robot' servants of Krsna who just serve without the ability or free will to choose if they want to remain 'aware' of their Svarupa body, that is always fixed perpetually serving Krsna. This is always the case, even if they do choose to sub-consciously and selfishly enter the mahat tattva.

Those who propagate the 'Borg' or assimilated mentality are actually impersonalists because they deny their own free will and individuality to become Krsna or their guru's mindless robot

Our nitya siddha bodily form is ALWAYS established in Goloka EVEN if we are dreaming in the mahat-tattva. The nitya siddha body therefore already exists and is again realized by those who have fallen to the material world when they again become aware of their natural pure state of REALITY, which means remembering they already are eternally liberated in Goloka serving God or Krishna as there already perpetual body.

Jiv JAGO Wake-up sleeping souls and think for your self with realized knowledge instead of being a parrot devotee.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being, which is an eternal nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna, means one never falls down, that is, their nitya siddha body never leaves Goloka.

However, he also tells us that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over or forgotten (nitya baddha) by the choice to imagine your own existence without Krishna.

Sarva gattah · January 9, 2009

On Conceiving the Inconceivable

Some Principles in Understanding the Origin of the Conditioned Soul

by Ravīndra Svarūpa Dāsa

We conditioned souls are originally Kṛṣṇa conscious living entities, but owing to a desire to be independent of God and to be the Supreme ourselves, we have fallen from our original position and become covered by māyā (illusion), who provides us with false identities of gross and subtle matter. By the grace of Kṛṣṇa and His pure devotees we fallen souls can regain our original Kṛṣṇa consciousness and in so doing go back to Godhead.

This simple dramatic narrative tells the story of who we are, where we came from, how we fell, and how we can be restored. Śrīla Prabhupāda tells us this story, and so do the previous ācāryas and the scriptures. This story is the profoundest truth about ourselves, and there is no fault in it.

Yet the story becomes complicated when we discover (from the identical infallible sources) that the souls in the spiritual world are nitya-siddha, eternally or perpetually liberated souls, and that no one falls from the spiritual world. Further, the souls in the material world are nitya-baddha, eternally or perpetually conditioned, and we learn that their conditioned state is anādi, or without any beginning. These statements, also, are true without a doubt.

How can these facts be reconciled with the story of fall and redemption?

It is necessary to recognize that the seemingly straightforward linear narrative is more complicated than it appears because the narrative’s scope of action spans two “worlds,” one eternal and the other temporal.

We can get some sense of the relation between these two worlds if we recollect the temporal structure of the material universe as presented in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. As one ascends from Martya-loka (our level or plane), through Svarga-loka (the plane of the enjoying and administrating demigods, or devas), and further through Mahar-loka and so on (the planes of the austere sages) to Satya-loka (the plane of Lord Brahmā), time progressively dilates. Thus, as 360 years go by here in Martya-loka, only a year passes for the devas in Svarga-loka. And 300 billion years have to come and go down here for a single year to transpire in Satya-loka for Lord Brahmā.

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam mentions that when Brahmā, on earth, kidnapped the cowherd boys and calves from Kṛṣṇa, the victims were gone a complete year by human experience, but for Brahmā, operating on Satya-loka time, only a moment (a truṭi) had passed. A truṭi lasts exactly 8/13,500 of a second.

On another occasion Mahārāja Kakudmi, seeking a husband for his daughter Revatī, took her to Satya-loka to ask Lord Brahmā to arrange the match. Brahmā kept them waiting until he had finished hearing a recital by Gandharva musicians. When Kakudmi finally presented his request, Brahmā burst out laughing. Everyone Kakudmi would have wanted for his daughter was long gone, for twenty-seven yuga cycles had passed (about 160 million years) while the supplicant and his daughter cooled their heels in the anteroom.

A live television broadcast on Satya-loka of events on Martya-loka would disclose everything moving with dizzying speed, a blur of mountains rising up and dissolving away, oceans swelling and shrinking, peoples and civilizations rushing on and off the earth. By the same token, a live broadcast on Martya-loka of current events on Satya-loka would transmit motion so slow as to be undetectable by normal human vision. Only time-lapse photography, snapping the shutter every thousand years or so, would disclose activity.

Keeping all this in mind, imagine the temporal structure of the universe depicted in the form of an equilateral triangle, with the base representing Martya-loka. Its width at the base stands for the duration of the universe in our years—that is, 311 trillion 40 billion years. As we go up, the triangle narrows, so that at the level of Brahmā the duration of the universe (still depicted as the width of the triangle) is 100 of his years.

Now continue up the universe, past Satya-loka. The unit-measure of duration continues to dilate, time slows more and more, and finally, at the point where the material realm borders the spiritual, time has its stop. Here, at the apex of the triangle, we reach the point of translation between material and spiritual worlds, between time and eternity.

This is the “now moment of eternity,” an everlasting instant without past or future. We have seen how, when we go up the universe, a unit-measure of time includes more and more of our years. What then happens when we take that process to the limit, as we do when we reach the apex? That single climactic moment embodies time without beginning and end. From this point of view, the lifetimes of a trillion, trillion Brahmās are over as soon as they begin. Who can even express such inconceivable things?

It remains to be mentioned, for the sake of thoroughness, that the apex of our triangle marks the limit of the ascent to the Absolute by mystical speculation. According to mystic speculators, the everlasting moment of eternity is necessarily spent in stasis, immobility. Vaiṣṇavas, however, pure devotees of the Lord, know of transcendental variegatedness and activities. Although eternity is described as having no past or future, there is still sequence (for there are līlās, pastimes); and knowledge, bliss, and beauty eternally increase.

If we were to continue with our figure of a triangle, we would have to envision the two lines of its sides extending through the apex to form a second, inverted triangle. Let this triangle, with its base up and its apex down, signify the spiritual realm of transcendental variegatedness as it expands beyond the zero point of nirvāṇa. The figure of the two triangles, apex to apex, is simply another representation of what the Bhagavad-gītā signifies by the metaphor of an inverted tree, a reflection of the original tree standing on the water’s bank.

Our minds boggle even at the “now moment of eternity” of the impersonal speculators. Even further from our conceptions is a realm in which transcendental time, which has neither past nor future, allows for activities—pastimes—and ever-increasing qualities of beauty, joy, and knowledge.

Now to consider the issue before us, we must not only contemplate that inconceivable eternal realm, but we must think about it in relationship with our world of past, passing, and to come. Let us proceed to do so.

As we have seen, the transcendental realm is eternal present, an everlasting instant. Every soul in that realm must accordingly be characterized as nitya-mukta, eternally liberated. This includes the souls that come from the material world. For if a soul enters that realm from the material world, can we ask, “When did that soul arrive?” The question does not apply. Once the soul gets there, that soul can only be nitya-mukta. He has, necessarily, always been there. This is the logic of eternity.

Now let us go to a matter equally inconceivable. Let us say, for the purposes of discussion, that a soul “falls” from eternity and sojourns in the material world. When did he enter the material world? We can only say that the fall is a non-temporal act that renders the conditioned soul bound from all time. The history of his incarceration in time has no beginning. The conditioned soul has always been conditioned. Strictly speaking, the question of when does not apply. Although bondage is not the soul’s original condition, the state of bondage is necessarily described as anādi, or beginningless, and the conditioned soul himself is characterized as nitya-baddha—eternally bound or conditioned. There was no time when he was not bound.

Yet such souls can attain release and enter the spiritual realm. Let us say that the soul who has fallen from that realm into beginningless bondage now returns. The duration of that bondage spans time without limit, as we have seen. Yet now, if we inquire, from the perspective of eternity, “How long has that fallen and restored soul been absent?” the answer is “He never left.” Or, alternatively, “The question does not apply.” For the logic of eternity dictates that no one falls from eternity—even if he does so.

The logic of eternity also dictates that no conditioned soul can begin his eternal life—even though he does so. In considering both falling from and returning to transcendence, we must accept the logic of eternity to be true to what is real.

Thus we see that while it is true that no one falls from the spiritual world, we in fact have done so, and yet there is no contradiction.

The dramatic narration of a life with God, a fall from that life, a sojourn in the alien world of illusion, and a final restoration to God is not a fiction. It is a profound truth. It need not be rejected on the mistaken notion that it conflicts with other, equally true, statements of authorities.

For our better understanding, however, we need to be aware of one simplification that takes place—quite naturally—in the telling of the narrative of fall and redemption. This is the representation of all the events in the story as though they take place on a single temporal continuum. For example, we habitually characterize our entry into time as though it were itself a temporal occasion, a dateable event. However, as we have seen, once we become conditioned, we have always been conditioned.

Similarly, we think of our rebellion against God as a distant, aboriginal event, one that took place long ago and far away, in that world. In truth, that single act of rebellion is perpetual; that very same aboriginal event is taking place right now. We have only to look into our hearts to confirm this.

Furthermore, when we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and “there” has always been right “here.” We are right now with Kṛṣṇa, for Kṛṣṇa consciousness is our svarūpa, our eternal identity. We need only wake up and see where we are.

All this is known to Śrīla Prabhupāda and to the ācāryas, previous teachers. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth.

rahulhb · February 5, 2009

Yep forget about it , You'll go crazy , just chant hare krishna

Beggar · February 15, 2009

The marginal aspect of the creation is not a place or plain, but rather the individual jiva's who ARE the tatastha s'aktis or 'so called' marginal individual living beings,

So by this logic you have defeated the idea of the tatastha being a place or plane, yet your angle of vision is true but can also be defeated by the logic that proves the tatastha is also a place. One angle of vision is from eternity, that the jivas are always existing and the other angle of vision is from the standpoint of being locked into a material time based language.

The siddhanta expresses these thoughts through language in a particular way. No one can show where the sastra says that the jivas originate in Goloka for that would imply that Krsna's eternal associates fall down, which would be impudent. Yet when you write:

who can choose to be aware of their eternal bodily identity serving Krishna in Goloka.

You are expressing a though which is absolutely true as confirmed many times by Srila Prabhupada and I have already shown you this in the Jaiva Dharma. But the real guru is expert at applying these apparently contradictory concepts for the correct time, place and circumstance because he has a mature, developed relationship with Krsna. He is experiencing the real bliss of chanting the holy name of Krsna and we are all hankering after that experience. This is what we are really after, not being right or correct about the origin of the soul question. And besides even if we are correct, it can only be hollow words for us because we are not actually experiencing the spritual reality.

Beggar · February 15, 2009

Username: Sarva gattah

</td> <td style="border-top: 1px solid rgb(207, 207, 207); border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(207, 207, 207);" class="alt1" id="td_post_1124076">

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Germany, June 22, 1974</td></tr></tbody></table>

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

The English word 'remember' however, is as good as the word 'regain', which Prabhupada uses in his books to descibe that our svarupa bodily form is never lost due to the 'eternal present' however, it can be forgotten due to our dreaming condition on the sub-conscious level of independant self centred desires. Such selfish self planning desires, activated by free will and choice, make us forget Krsna and the perpetual body we serve Krsna as because we want to creat our own existence in the body WE choose in a world without Krsna, in a world where we try to be the master.

In the meantime while we are chasing our dreams of self importance in our dreams that end up being within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva, our svarupa nitya-siddha body is ever fresh and in an eternal state of originality because there is only the present, which means past and future do not and can not exist.

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is eternaly established, fixed and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginningless).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides.

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (at least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, that seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha)

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet.

So we should all try to understand our original position that is our eternal identity in Krsnaloka', as Prabhupada would say’.

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka. There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', where there is no past or future, these things will be seen in another way.

What is that other way that many say is conceivable to understand?

The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in Krsnaloka.

Srila Prabhupada - “One should be humble and know that he is subordinate to the Supreme Lord. Due to rebellion against the Supreme Lord, one becomes subordinate to material nature. One must know and be convinced of this truth.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.12, purport.

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport

Srila Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” . . . - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

Srila Prabhupada - “In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport.

Srila Prabhupada -“Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

__________________

This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the PERISHABLE mahat-tattva that is a real phenomenon in one cornor of the Spiritual Sky yet is temporary. "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu" .4.29.83.

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Sonic Yogi · February 15, 2009

Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Germany, June 22, 1974

The original svarupa of the jiva is described by Mahaprabhu.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139

keśāgra-śateka-bhāga punaḥ śatāḿśa kari

tāra sama sūkṣma jīvera 'svarūpa' vicāri

SYNONYMS

keśa-agra — from the tip of a hair; śata-eka — one hundred; bhāga — divisions; punaḥ — again; śata-aḿśa — one hundred divisions; kari — making; tāra sama — equal to that; sūkṣma — very fine; jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the actual form; vicāri — I consider.

TRANSLATION

"The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity.

So, Mahaprabhu reveals the original svarupa of the jiva

jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the actual form; vicāri — I consider.

So, Prabhupada might have played some sematics with the concept of the original form of the jiva.

The purpose of Prabhupada saying the jiva has an original form is to defeat the Mayavadi and Buddhist concept that the jiva has no form.

Actually, the jiva's original form is explained here by Mahaprabhu as being a spiritual spark.

Mahaprabhu never preached in terms of any devotee in Goloka falling into illusion.

That idea goes against the infallible nature of liberated souls.

The fall from Goloka fairy tale was not within the scope of what Mahaprabhu taught.

primate · February 15, 2009

… And besides even if we are correct [about the origin of the soul question], it can only be hollow words for us because we are not actually experiencing the spritual reality.

Perhaps if we had a better (formal) understanding of the origin of the soul, we would also be able to better understand the nature of material illusion. Such (scientific) knowledge may then generally aid religion and increase public spiritual awareness..

Beggar · February 15, 2009

EDITORIAL January 1, 2000 VNN5195 Comment on this story About the Author Other Stories by this Author

Sadhana-Siddha, Nitya-Siddha

<hr> BY SWAMI B.V. TRIPURARI

EDITORIAL, Jan 1 (VNN) — "You ask who is right and who is wrong. You want an objective answer to a subjective reality. Guru is ultimately Krsna. If we find Krsna in a Vaisnava, proportionately we will honor him. A mere glimpse of Krsna warrants all regard."

Q&A discussion with Swami B.V. Tripurari.

Q. In Sanga 12/26 'where time meets eternity,' you said 'the guru who is a sadhana-siddha, who has perfected himself via sadhana, or spiritual practice, (the majority of gurus in our line) has spiritualized his or her practitioner's body (sadhaka-deha) over time.' Could you please elaborate further on 'the majority of gurus in our line who have perfected themselves via sadhana.' Aren't such gurus always perfected, eternal companions of the gopis (perhaps gopis themselves) who have come down to this plane to lift us up to their level? And when you say 'the majority of gurus,' what happens to the minority? If they are not 'perfected over time' does that mean that their disciples are just unlucky?

A. The idea is that most of the gurus are sadhana-siddha, the others are nitya-siddhas. All are siddhas. The nitya-siddha is more rare, but not better, for both are siddha. The sadhana-siddha is one who becomes a siddha through sadhana and then serves in the capacity of guru. Narada Muni is a sadhana-siddha. His story is found in Srimad Bhagavatam.

While the disciple may think of his or her guru as a nitya-siddha, he may very well be a sadhana-siddha. Most of Prabhupada's disciple think of him as a nitya-siddha. However, he himself used to say that in his previous life he was a doctor and committed no sins. Sridhara Maharaja clearly took the postion of a sadhana-siddha, as did every disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta in Gaudiya Math. Bhaktivinoda Thakura described himself as a sadhana-siddha as well, although Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura thought of him as a nitya-siddha, and taught that he was. Bilvamangala Thakura is the example of a sadhana-siddha pointed to in Bhaktirasamrta-sindhu, and Prahlada Maharaja is also considered a sadhana-siddha. In this way the list goes on.

Q. The disciple sees the guru as nitya-siddha but non-disciples may see him as sadhana-siddha or simply as an ordinary man. Who is right, who is wrong? Disciples may see their guru as nitya-siddha but how should you, or I or any non-disciple view such feelings? Do we honor them as corresponding to reality? You cite A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as an example of a sadhana-siddha in our line. That brings to mind a song that you and Narasingha Maharaja wrote years ago in glorification of Srila Prabhupada.

In the song you write that Srimati Radharani summoned her 'servant dear,' ordering him 'tomorrow on earth you will appear.' This seems to imply that prior to his appearance in this world Srila Prabhupada was already with Srimati Radharani. How then can he be a sadhana-siddha?

A. Disciples may or may not see their guru as nitya-siddha. They may see him as sadhana-siddha. There is nothing wrong with this. It is also possible that he could be both! Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says regarding Prahlada and Narada Muni 'evam prahladasyamsena sadhana-siddhatvam nitya-siddhatvam ca naradadivaj jneyam.' Prabhupada comments, 'Prahlada Maharaja is a mixed siddha; that is, he is perfect partly because of executing devotional service and partly because of eternal perfection. Thus he is compared to such devotees as Narada.

Formerly, Narada Muni was the son of a maidservant, and therefore in his next birth he attained perfection (sadhana-siddhi) because of having executed devotional service. Yet he is also a nitya-siddha because he never forgets the Supreme Personality of Godhead.'

So now what?

We should honor the vision of others as best as we can within reason. After all, others may be doing that with us when they honor our guru. As you mentioned, your vision may not be theirs. Krsna shows different things to different devotees. You ask who is right and who is wrong. You want an objective answer to a subjective reality. Guru is ultimately Krsna. If we find Krsna in a Vaisnava, proportionately we will honor him. A mere glimpse of Krsna warrants all regard...

Sonic Yogi · February 16, 2009

Another angle of thinking about the idea of reviving a spiritual body in Vaikuntha is in terms of the living entity who spiritualizes his senses through devotional service and thus transforms his material body into a spiritual body.

Then, the spiritual senses and the spiritual body that the living entity acquires through perfection of full-fledged service and surrender can be revived again in the spiritual world.

The spiritual body is evolved through perfection of devotional service.

The spiritual body that one acquires which is his emotional body of loving feelings for the Lord will be revived in the spiritual world.

The spiritual body is acquired in this world through the mercy of the pure devotee and Krishna.

Then, that spiritual body is revived in the spiritual world or re-awakened in the spiritual world upon leaving the gross material body which itself became transformed into spiritual function through devotional service.

The loving mood, the feeling, the rasa that one develops for Krishna is the spiritual body. The spiritual body is non-different than the type of love or devotion that one feels for the Lord.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.134

bhakti-bale 'prāpta-svarūpa' divya-deha pāya

kṛṣṇa-guṇākṛṣṭa hañā bhaje kṛṣṇa-pā'ya

SYNONYMS

bhakti-bale — by the strength of devotional service; prāpta-svarūpa — attaining his original status; divya-deha — a transcendental body; pāya — one gets; kṛṣṇa-guṇa-ākṛṣṭa — attracted by the transcendental qualities of Kṛṣṇa; hañā — being; bhaje — takes to devotional service; kṛṣṇa-pā'ya — at Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet.

TRANSLATION

"One who has attained his constitutional position by the strength of devotional service attains a transcendental body even in this lifetime. Being attracted by Lord Kṛṣṇa's transcendental qualities, he fully engages in service at His lotus feet.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 5.51

rāgānuga-mārge jāni rāyera bhajana

siddha-deha-tulya, tāte 'prākṛta' nahe mana

SYNONYMS

rāgānuga-mārge — on the path of spontaneous love of Kṛṣṇa; jāni — we can understand; rāyera bhajana — the devotional service of Rāmānanda Rāya; siddha-deha — spiritual body; tulya — equal to; tāte — therefore; prākṛta — material; nahe — is not; mana — mind.

TRANSLATION

"Śrīla Rāmānanda Rāya is situated on the path of spontaneous love of Godhead. Therefore he is in his spiritual body, and his mind is not materially affected.

gauragopala dasa · February 16, 2009

Beggar, that was hilarious . The responses by Sarvah indicate no retention or dynamic understanding. (I don't know if this is true regarding Sarvah, its just what the response indicates.) They are disproportionately long and therefore difficult to pay attention to. They offer no contextual relation and thus, can easily be misinterpreted. Given their disproportionate length, I'd wager:eek3: that most persons glaze over them. If Sarvah wants to be more efficient in his preaching, he might want to try to be a little more dynamic.

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Germany, June 22, 1974 :deal: </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Beggar · February 16, 2009

Like I have said many times, there is a profound truth behind what Gauragopal is trying to communicate. The problem is in the explanation or communication that he gives. In his case he should just quote Srila Prabhupada.

Now to summarize:

communication breakdown,

Its always the same,

I'm having a nervous breakdown,

Drive me insane! :crazy2:

gauragopala dasa · February 16, 2009

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Yes , to me that makes sense because in February 1973 Srila Prabhupada told me personally that the body I now have is not me and that my real identity and body is in Vaikuntha , right now – he was adamant saying ‘your real body is already there in Vaikuntha’

Srila Prabhupada - As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all. lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad

Beggar · February 16, 2009

From the angle of vision of time, the creation and dissolution of the material world, the expansion of Garbhodaksayi Visnu, Karanadaksayi Visnu and Ksirodaksayi Visnu, (the lila of creation); the spiritual body is something to attain.

From the angle of vision of eternal Vaikuntha and Goloka, "The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body."[srila Prabhupada]

These two apparently opposite concepts are both simultaneously, inconceivably, one and different, acintya bheda[a] bheda tattva.

Yet to think that the eternal servants of Krsna fall or dream that they fall from their eternal service is an aparadha not bhakti or devotion. Therefore the siddhanta must properly adjust the different angles of vision to come to the devotional conclusion. It's only common sense, otherwise the words: nitya baddha, saddha siddha etc. would not exist.

gauragopala dasa · February 16, 2009

From the angle of vision of time, the creation and dissolution of the material world, the expansion of Garbhodaksayi Visnu, Karanadaksayi Visnu and Ksirodaksayi Visnu, (the lila of creation); the spiritual body is something to attain.
From the angle of vision of eternal Vaikuntha and Goloka, "The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body."[srila Prabhupada]

These two apparently opposite concepts are both simultaneously, inconceivably, one and different, acintya bheda[a] bheda tattva.

Well written and point understood, I agree with you here

Sonic Yogi · February 16, 2009

another point that I think is important to understand is that Srila Prabhupada was speaking directly to disciples who had been initiated with the bhakti-lata bija.

so, for them, yes the seed of the spiritual body is already there.

But, I don't think you can apply what Srila Prabhupada said or wrote to his initiated disciples to every Tom, Dick and Hairy jiva in the material world.

Sure, for devotees who have been initiated, the spiritual body has already been acquired in a seed form in terms of the particular brand of bhakti they have imbibed from the Guru, Mahaprabhu and the Rupanuga sampradaya.

So, for Prabhupada to tell a disciple "your spiritual body is already there" is not very impracticle because in fact the spiritual body is acquired in seed form at the time of diksha.

The seed of the spiritual body must be fully realized in course of perfection of devotional service beyond the modes of material nature.

Beggar · February 16, 2009

The followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur consider him to be a nitya siddha bhakta. IOW that he and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur came down from Goloka to serve Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu by expanding His divine mission (sankirtan). The followers of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami believe the same about him. If we think that we are nitya siddha, also, then we have no way in which to distinguish ourselves from them. It that sense, 'it all becomes one' which is similiar to the siddhantic mistakes made by the followers of Sankaracarya. Again why is the term 'nitya baddha' appear so many times in the Caitanya Caritamrta? The answer must be that it was used by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Himself. From the eternal viewpoint, everyone is nitya siddha, but we will not apply that viewpoint when thinking about our gurus who include the eternal associates of Krsna (parivars) because our logical conclusion would be anti-devotional.

PS: And I also agree with Sonic Yogi in the last post #223.

How have we fallen in this material world?

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