Sanatana dharma defined

[matarisvan]

 

It's not a matter of "Prabhupada said it, therefore it's absolute"...more like Prabhupada was highly influential in introducing this term and the meaning into Western language.

 

He could just as easily have used another word or phrase.

 

But he did not...and that causes the problems debated on this forum. He should have used different words to label his ideas and doctrine.

 

Instead of using new words, he took existing words and distorted their existing meanings. Now his followers are stubbornly arguing that these new distortions are the original meanings!

[tackleberry]

 

Your inability to grasp a simple logical point is phenomenal. You persist in claiming sanatana dharma is a religion. The whole point is that it cannot be

reduced to this or that sect, but includes all bona fide religions who have sanatana dharma as their essence.

 

So all these bona fide religions are sanatana dharma, eh? And what are these bona fide religions...?

[sanatan]

 

But he did not...and that causes the problems debated on this forum. He should have used different words to label his ideas and doctrine.

 

Instead of using new words, he took existing words and distorted their existing meanings. Now his followers are stubbornly arguing that these new distortions are the original meanings!

 

 

That's why I prefaced my comments by saying that language as a whole is constantly changing...in 1000 years, someone will be arguing that "well, sanatan dharma has been in use for over 1000 years...why a new word now?"

[cbrahma]

 

So all these bona fide religions are sanatana dharma, eh? And what are these bona fide religions...?

This is an epistemological question. You must first understand what is Religion before you can know whether this or that particular religion is bona fide.

 

 

Allen Ginsberg: But what do you do when different religious groups claim to be the center? What do you do when different religious groups...

Srila Prabhupada: No, we welcome every religion. We don't decry any religion. Our point is the love of Godhead. Or Krsna is love, all-attractive. So we want to be attracted by Krsna. Just like a magnetic force and iron. Unless iron is rusty, it is automatically attracted by the magnetic force. Similarly, we are contaminated by material coverings. So we are trying to make it rustless so that immediately we shall be attracted. This is the program. Krsna is all-attractive. That is a fact. And we are attracted. But being covered with this rust, we are, instead of being attracted by Krsna, we are being attracted by maya. This is our whole program. So our central program is how to love Krsna, or how to love God. So we want to see... That is the Bhagavata definition, that how much you have enhanced your love of God. You call Krsna or something else, that doesn't matter. Phalena pariciyate. The result. Your religious principle, what is the result? Are you enhancing your love for God or dog? That we want to see. If you are enhancing your love for God, it is all right. We don't say anything. But if... People should learn how to love. That is the perfection of life. That we are teaching.

Allen Ginsberg: If you're identifying love, however, with the sabda Krsna, what of those people who identify love with the sabda Allah? Srila Prabhupada: If that sabda, of course, identifies with God, we have no objection. That Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis. God has many names. God is attractive, His name is also attractive, because He's not different from His name. If you have got exactly the same attractive name, we have no objection. We simply say, "You chant God's name, holy name." Then you become purified. That is our program. We don't say that you change your Christianity. No. We don't say. If you have got a nice name, all-attractive name, in your scripture--don't manufacture but authorized--then you chant that. We simply request, "You chant."

 

[matarisvan]

 

That's why I prefaced my comments by saying that language as a whole is constantly changing...in 1000 years, someone will be arguing that "well, sanatan dharma has been in use for over 1000 years...why a new word now?"

 

A new word is fine. The problem here is twisting meanings of existing words.

[Admin5]

The topic of this thread is "Sanatana dharma defined". Anyone who wants to explain their understanding of the term "Sanatana dharma" is welcome to. Some of the off topic posts have been removed.

[shvu]

To add some more detail to the origin of the name -

 

The Mahabharata has in several places referred to the Dharma it adheres to as eternal [esha Dharma sanatanah]. This statement has since then been copied over to other texts like the Manu Smriti, etc. Meanwhile, the name Hindu found its way into embellished versions of the Bhavishya Purana, Kalika Purana, etc.

 

Sometime during the 19th century, the etymology of Hindu was seen as a patriotic issue and the new name "Sanatana Dharma" was coined, inspired by the Mahabharata statements. This name was eventually popularized at a globa level by Vivekananda as he thought it was a more appropriate name for Hinduism than the word Hindu for its original meaning meant something else.

 

Today most internet articles are ignorant about this, and incorrectly write Sanatana Dharma was the original name of the religion, without providing references. While there exist a number of articles researching the etymology of the word Hindu, no articles exist which research the origin of Sanatana Dharma.

 

If people are more interested in the topic, I would suggest posting questions on the indology forum or getting in touch with University students or professors who are involved in Indology.

 

Cheers

[AncientMariner]

 

To add some more detail to the origin of the name -

 

The Mahabharata has in several places referred to the Dharma it adheres to as eternal [esha Dharma sanatanah]. This statement has since then been copied over to other texts like the Manu Smriti, etc. Meanwhile, the name Hindu found its way into embellished versions of the Bhavishya Purana, Kalika Purana, etc.

 

Sometime during the 19th century, the etymology of Hindu was seen as a patriotic issue and the new name "Sanatana Dharma" was coined, inspired by the Mahabharata statements. This name was eventually popularized at a globa level by Vivekananda as he thought it was a more appropriate name for Hinduism than the word Hindu for its original meaning meant something else.

 

Today most internet articles are ignorant about this, and incorrectly write Sanatana Dharma was the original name of the religion, without providing references. While there exist a number of articles researching the etymology of the word Hindu, no articles exist which research the origin of Sanatana Dharma.

 

If people are more interested in the topic, I would suggest posting questions on the indology forum or getting in touch with University students or professors who are involved in Indology.

 

Cheers

 

 

Doesn't it mean that the eternal occupation of the jiva is to serve the supreme or something like that?

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Doesn't it mean that the eternal occupation of the jiva is to serve the supreme or something like that?

 

Even though the definition to which you seem to is by far the most popular one today, Shvu is essentially correct in ascribing the phrase to nineteenth-century Indian nationalists. Once again, as in most issues surrounding Hinduism and the broad array of religious avenues that it houses (e.g. the dating of the scriptures, Puranic cosmology and mythology, extraneous influences on Vedic texts and so on - the list is almost endless), it basically boils down to a matter of defendable scholarship versus pietistic acceptance. You can thus freely take your pick. The more rational-minded among us will find the former preferable to the latter. This is indeed my personal stance. You have the total liberty to choose what suits your purposes better.

[raghu]

 

I don't know why people are infatuated with the term 'sanatana dharma.' According to veda, entities like KAla, AkASa, and SabdA are also eternal. According to some acharyas, evil is eternal. False religion is eternal. Which means, eternity has nothing to do with truth. Truth may be eternal or nitya, but that doesn't mean all nitya vastu-s are truth.

 

Tackleberry is correct that many other false religions like sad-darshanas, Buddhism, etc are also eternally existing. Being eternal does not grant something authority by the very fact of it being eternal.

 

As far as its origins are concerned, the term "sanatana dharma" is used in dharma-shAstras and mahAbhArata but the useage is completely unlike that used by iskcon people. Usually in these sources the term is used in the context of a moral imperative, i.e. "one should not eat meat, this is the sanAtana dharma.One should offer respects to a brahmana, this is the sanAtana dharma." I suppose you could extrapolate from this that sanAtana dharma refers to the Vedic theology, but that is your choice. I am not actually aware of any useage in the shAstras to denote the conclusions of shAstra i.e vedAnta.

 

The term "Hinduism" is of foreign origin and has come to describe the people living in India and following Vedic culture. Hinduism is not a religion, but rather a general category of various religious traditions that at least theoretically accept the authority of the Vedas. When used in that way, there is nothing wrong with the term. This is the way it has historically been used both in India and amongst scholars who study India.

 

The problem starts when neo-Vedantists like Vivekananda, Chinmayananda, etc start using "Hinduism" to describe their watered-down, politically correct version of Advaita philosophy. If one does a google search for "Hinduism," one will find many sources which incorrectly define Hinduism according to views held only be neo-Vedantins and/or Advaitins, i.e. accepting all gods as different forms of the same Brahman, accepting all religions as valid, etc etc. This is a big slap in the face to the Vaishnava Vedanta schools whose views get ignored by these self-appointed authorities on "Hinduism." Unfortunately, the problem is perpetuated by iskcon fanatics who also accept this historically incorrect meaning and start hurling abuses at anyone or anything that is labeled as "Hindu."

 

What the iskcon thugs often neglect to tell you however is that while Prabhupada clearly distances himself from "Hinduism" in some contexts, he also uses the term "Hinduism" freely to denote Vedic culture in *other* contexts. Some examples from his own writings:

 

 

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/1/63/ : "It is still the practice at the Jagannātha temple not to allow those to enter who do not strictly follow the Vedic culture known as Hinduism." (Prabhupada's own commentary)

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/17/en

CC Ādi 17.195: "'Vibrating "Hari, Hari," the Hindus make a tumultuous sound. If the king [pātasāha] hears it, certainly he will punish you.'

CC Ādi 17.196: "I then inquired from these yavanas, 'I know that these Hindus by nature chant "Hari, Hari."

CC Ādi 17.197: "'The Hindus chant the name Hari because that is the name of their God. But you are Muslim meat-eaters. Why do you chant the name of the Hindus' God?'

CC Ādi 17.198: "The meat-eater replied, 'Sometimes I joke with the Hindus. Some of them are called Kṛṣṇadāsa, and some are called Rāmadāsa.

CC Ādi 17.199: "'Some of them are called Haridāsa. They always chant "Hari, Hari," and thus I thought they would steal the riches from someone's house.

CC Ādi 17.200: "'Since that time, my tongue also always vibrates the sound "Hari, Hari." I have no desire to say it, but still my tongue says it. I do not know what to do.'

CC Ādi 17.201-202: "Another meat-eater said, 'Sir, please hear me. Since the day I joked with some Hindus in this way, my tongue chants the HareKṛṣṇa hymn and cannot give it up. I do not know what mystic hymns and herbal potions these Hindus know.'

CC Ādi 17.203: "After hearing all this, I sent all the mlecchas back to their homes. Five or seven nonbelieving Hindus then approached me.

CC Ādi 17.204: "Coming to me, the Hindus complained, 'NimāiPaṇḍita has broken the Hindu religious principles. He has introduced the sańkīrtana system, which we never heard from any scripture. (Prabhupada's translation of KrishnadAsa KavirAja, who also uses the term "Hindu" in the original Bengali!)

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/13/95/

The whole world was pleased. While the Hindus chanted the holy name of the Lord, the non-Hindus, especially the Muslims, jokingly imitated the words.

PURPORT

Although Muslims, or non-Hindus, have no interest in chanting the holy name of the Lord, the HareKṛṣṇamahā-mantra, the Muslims in Navadvīpa imitated the Hindus as they chanted during the lunar eclipse. Thus the Hindus and Muslims joined together in chanting the holy name of the Lord when ŚrīCaitanyaMahāprabhu advented Himself.

 

 

 

In the above examples, prabhupada and Sri krishnadAsa kavirAja are both clearly using "Hindu" and "Hinduism" to refer to Vedic culture rather than to neo-Advaita.

 

It is therefore only the modern iskcon people who use Hinduism exclusively in the pejorative sense and refuse to acknowledge it as another term for Vedic culture. Despite all their claims to being loyal to Prabhupada, they often misunderstand Prabhupada and his different uses of the term. And also because many of them are social misfits with various insecurities, they feel better only when they can look down on others, and hence they cling to terms like "sanAtana dharma" (the origin of which they do not understand) and hurl abuses at "Hinduism." To the modern iskconite, "Hinduism" is a very dirty word, and anyone who even uses the term "Hinduism" immediately disqualifies himself and anything he says from serious consideration.

 

- Thus, when someone posted a critique by a practicing Vaishnava on Christianity, one of our stalwart "Vaishnavas" immediately denounced it not because of the merits of its arguments but on the sole basis that its author used the term "Hinduism" to denote his own religion.

 

- Similarly, when someone else posted an article about a Hindu priest who was discriminated against in the United States Senate, another stalwart "Vaishnava" responded chillingly with derision and apathy because the priest was "Hindu" and not "Vaishnava" and thus the discrimination was not worthy of his concern.

 

- Then there was another "Vaishnava" who publicly wondered why intelligent Indians would be attached to the label Hindu, implying that to call oneself Hindu was not intelligent, thus calling into question the intelligence of Hindus.

 

Based on these and many other examples from this forum, it seems that the motivation behind modern iskcon's propagation of the term "sanAtana-dharma" is exclusivist in nature - they want to continue distancing themselves from and continue supporting their prejudiced remarks against "Hinduism."

[Beggar]

 

 

...It is therefore only the modern iskcon people who use Hinduism exclusively in the pejorative sense and refuse to acknowledge it as another term for Vedic culture. Despite all their claims to being loyal to Prabhupada, they ....often misunderstand Prabhupada and his different uses of the term.

Thus, when someone posted a critique by a practicing Vaishnava on Christianity, one of our stalwart "Vaishnavas" immediately denounced it not because of the merits of its arguments but on the sole basis that its author used the term "Hinduism" to denote his own religion...

 

Similarly, when someone else posted an article about a Hindu priest who was discriminated against in the United States Senate, another stalwart "Vaishnava" responded chillingly with derision and apathy because the priest was "Hindu" and not "Vaishnava" and thus the discrimination was not worthy of his concern.

 

Thus, it seems that the apparent motivation these days to spread the term "sanAtana-dharma" by iskcon people is to continue distancing themselves from "hinduism," and thus support their continued prejudice against what they consider to be "Hinduism."

Good analysis but the Gaudiya Saraswat Vaisnavas use the terms sanatana dharma and jaiva dharma synonomously. IOW the real essence of sanatana dharma is jaiva dharma or eternal service to Sri Krsna in Vraja or Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

[raghu]

 

Good analysis but the Gaudiya Saraswat Vaisnavas use the terms sanatana dharma and jaiva dharma synonomously. IOW the real essence of sanatana dharma is jaiva dharma or eternal service to Sri Krsna in Vraja or Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

I was speaking of the motivations of iskcon people. The author of Jaiva Dharma may have had different motivations.

[Amlesh]

The issue to the meaning of the Term Sanatana Dharma can come to an end if one tries to follow anyone of the 12 Mahajana. Nothing can come out in trying to figure out things by our perpetually weakening senses and intelligence. These 12 Mahajans for certain knows the secret of Duty, we have just to understand sincerely their common way of perceiving Dharma.

[tackleberry]

 

Good analysis but the Gaudiya Saraswat Vaisnavas use the terms sanatana dharma and jaiva dharma synonomously. IOW the real essence of sanatana dharma is jaiva dharma or eternal service to Sri Krsna in Vraja or Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

That's a GV perspective. For an advaitin, sanatana dharma could mean something entirely different. And so it is with other people, which is why we can't define sanatana dharma without referring to some religion or the other. The moment you say, "Sanatana Dharma is all about nitya seva....." etc. etc., you've already related Sanatana Dharma to a certain religion, in this case GV, that believes in nitya seva and related concepts. OTOH, if you define sanatana dharma in a different way, in a completely non-vedic way, that too will be related to another set of beliefs, and therefore to a different religion. Hence, a proper definition of SD seems impossible.

[shvu]

 

Doesn't it mean that the eternal occupation of the jiva is to serve the supreme or something like that?

 

Sanatana Dharma was and is still widely used as a synonym for Hinduism. The logic is since many branches of Hinduism draw from the Vedas which are eternal, the name seems apt. Consequently all branches drawing from the Veda - to whatever extent - can lay claim to be the *real* Sanatana Dharma.

 

Tattvavada is Sanatana Dharma

Vishishtadvaita is Sanatana Dharma

Advaita is Sanatana Dharma (booo!)

Arya Samaj is Sanatana Dharma...

 

They all differ from each other of course, but you get the idea.

 

Cheers

[theist]

 

Therefore, sanatana-dharma does not refer to any sectarian process of religion. It is the eternal function of the eternal living entities in relationship with the eternal Supreme Lord. Sanatana-dharma refers, as stated previously, to the eternal occupation of the living entity. Sripada Ramanujacarya has explained the word sanatana as "that which has neither beginning nor end," so when we speak of sanatana-dharma, we must take it for granted on the authority of Sripada Ramanujacarya that it has neither beginning nor end.

 

The English world religion is a little different from sanatana-dharma. Religion conveys the idea of faith, and faith may change. One may have faith in a particular process, and he may change this faith and adopt another, but sanatana-dharma refers to that activity which cannot be changed. For instance, liquidity cannot be taken from water, nor can heat be taken from fire. Similarly, the eternal function of the eternal living entity cannot be taken from the living entity. Sanatana-dharma is eternally integral with the living entity. When we speak of sanatana-dharma, therefore, we must take it for granted on the authority of Sripada Ramanujacarya that it has neither beginning nor end. That which has neither end nor beginning must not be sectarian, for it cannot be limited by any boundaries. Those belonging to some sectarian faith will wrongly consider that sanatana-dharma is also sectarian, but if we go deeply into the matter and consider it in the light of modern science, it is possible for us to see that sanatana-dharma is the business of all the people of the world—nay, of all the living entities of the universe.

 

Non-sanatana religious faith may have some beginning in the annals of human history, but there is no beginning to the history of sanatana-dharma, because it remains eternally with the living entities. Insofar as the living entities are concerned, the authoritative sastras state that the living entity has neither birth nor death. In the Gita it is stated that the living entity is never born and he never dies. He is eternal and indestructible, and he continues to live after the destruction of his temporary material body. In reference to the concept of sanatana-dharma, we must try to understand the concept of religion from the Sanskrit root meaning of the word. Dharma refers to that which is constantly existing with a particular object. We conclude that there is heat and light along with the fire; without heat and light, there is no meaning to the word fire. Similarly, we must discover the essential part of the living being, that part which is his constant companion. That constant companion is his eternal quality, and that eternal quality is his eternal religion.-Bhagavad gita introduction

[cbrahma]

 

 

Therefore those who are Krsna conscious devotees have taken shelter of Krsna, and the beginning is hearing and chanting. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh. So our fervent, humble request to everyone is to please accept this chanting. This movement of Krsna consciousness was introduced by Lord Caitanya five hundred years ago in Bengal, and now all over India and especially in Bengal there are millions of followers of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Now this movement is starting in the Western countries, so just be very serious in understanding it. We do not criticize any other religion. Don't take it in that way. We have no business criticizing any other process of religion. Krsna consciousness is giving people the most sublime religion - love of God. That's all. We are teaching to love God. Everyone is already loving, but that love is misplaced. We love this boy or this girl or this country or that society or even the cats and dogs, but we are not satisfied. So we must place our love in God. If one places one's love in God, he will be happy. Don't think that this Krsna consciousness movement is a new type of religion. Where is the religion which does not recognize God ? One may call God "Allah" or "Krsna" or something else, but where is that religion which does not recognize God ? We are teaching that one should simply try to love God. We are attracted by so many things, but if our love is reposed in God, then we will be happy. We don't' have to learn to love anything else; everything else is automatically included. Just try to love God. Don't try to love just trees or plants or insects. This will never satisfy. Learn to love God. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission; that is our mission.

By His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada