Caste System by Birth?

[raghu]

 

I noticed you missed my point also. You totally ignored it.

Congratulations for fighting with someone who is 14 yrs old.

Perhaps you should find some intellectuals to fight with? Now that you tell me, shouldn't I be doing something brahminical instead of fighting with great personalities like youself?

 

When all else fails, just fall back on the standard iskcon strategy of "ignore all evidence that contradicts my opinion."

 

Yes, you might be 14 years old, but I have been arguing with cbrahma and Theist, and I frankly don't see much difference between their maturity level and yours.

[Beggar]

 

So if you say you are a shudra due to having a shudra's mentality, then by your own logic you are performing dharmas that are not prescribed for you.

<table><tbody><tr><td>Ādi-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 5: The Glories Of Lord Nityānanda Balarāma</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.205

jagāi mādhāi haite muñi se pāpiṣṭha

purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha

SYNONYMS

jagāi mādhāi — the two brothers Jagāi and Mādhāi; haite — than; muñi — I; se — that; pāpiṣṭha — more sinful; purīṣera — in stool; kīṭa — the worms; haite — than; muñi — I am; se — that; laghiṣṭha — lower.

TRANSLATION

I am more sinful than Jagāi and Mādhāi and even lower than the worms in the stool.

 

 

This was written by Srila Krsna das Kaviraja. Do you think that he should have taken up worm dharma? Or maybe since he says that he's lower than a worm then he wasn't even qualified for that?

[raghu]

 

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>Ādi-līlā</TD><TD class=m>Chapter 5: The Glories Of Lord Nityānanda Balarāma</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.205

jagāi mādhāi haite muñi se pāpiṣṭha

purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha

SYNONYMS

jagāi mādhāi — the two brothers Jagāi and Mādhāi; haite — than; muñi — I; se — that; pāpiṣṭha — more sinful; purīṣera — in stool; kīṭa — the worms; haite — than; muñi — I am; se — that; laghiṣṭha — lower.

TRANSLATION

I am more sinful than Jagāi and Mādhāi and even lower than the worms in the stool.

 

 

This was written by Srila Krsna das Kaviraja. Do you think that he should have taken up worm dharma?

 

Thank you for proving my point, Beggar. Despite what he thought of himself, he carried out his brahmin dharma and wrote Chaitanya-Charitamrta.

 

And a good thing he did, too. Otherwise, iskcon devotees would have one less book on their bookshelves to ignore.

[Beggar]

 

Thank you for proving my point, Beggar. Despite what he thought of himself, he carried out his brahmin dharma and wrote Chaitanya-Charitamrta.

 

And a good thing he did, too. Otherwise, iskcon devotees would have one less book on their bookshelves to ignore.

 

Yet Hari das Thakur was born a Muslim and Mahaprabhu made him namacarya.

How to explain in your paradigm?

[theist]

So proud of the land of their birth and caste also. Cockaroaches are also born in India boys and in brahmana families as well.

 

However, "for the soul there is never birth or death nor having once been does he ever cease to be...."

 

There is no land of birth for the soul and it is from the heart of the soul that Vaisnavism emanates.

 

So you all go on with your birth and death business while we worms in stool go about falling down before the Lord and begging His mercy upon us.

[tackleberry]

 

Because of our material nature (the particular mix of 3 gunas) we adopt a particular profession (social duties) or varna. When sudras by nature try to take the social role of brahmanas, like explaining shastras to others, there is only disturbance.

 

The duties we adopt should match our nature.

Yes, there are two types of varna, svabhAvika and aupAdika. Let's say your SV is brAhmaNic. But if you're khatriya by aupAdika varna, then you must follow khatriya dharma, or Lord Vishnu wouldn't have given you a birth in that particular varna. Vidura is a perfect example. Though a brAhmaNa by SV (he was yama!), he performed the duties pertaining to his 'birth' varna without ever complaining about it.

 

So one has to proceed with the conviction that the Lord knows best. And if he's given us a birth in a varna that contradicts our SV, we must assume there's some prArabhda karma to be worked out. This is the meaning of BG 3.35.

[tackleberry]

 

<table><tbody><tr><td>Ādi-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 5: The Glories Of Lord Nityānanda Balarāma</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.205

jagāi mādhāi haite muñi se pāpiṣṭha

purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha

SYNONYMS

jagāi mādhāi — the two brothers Jagāi and Mādhāi; haite — than; muñi — I; se — that; pāpiṣṭha — more sinful; purīṣera — in stool; kīṭa — the worms; haite — than; muñi — I am; se — that; laghiṣṭha — lower.

TRANSLATION

I am more sinful than Jagāi and Mādhāi and even lower than the worms in the stool.

 

 

This was written by Srila Krsna das Kaviraja. Do you think that he should have taken up worm dharma? Or maybe since he says that he's lower than a worm then he wasn't even qualified for that?

 

I don't think 'worm dharma' is recommended anywhere in the scriptures! Dharma means dharma according to one's varna. Otherwise, dharma wouldn't even have a direction to begin with.

[matarisvan]

 

So proud of the land of their birth and caste also. Cockaroaches are also born in India boys and in brahmana families as well.

We consider ourselves fortunate and blessed for that. It is a pity you have nothing to be proud of.

 

There is no land of birth for the soul and it is from the heart of the soul that Vaisnavism emanates.

How about,

1. it is from the heart of the soul that Shaivism emanates

2. it is from the heart of the soul that Islam emanates

3. it is from the heart of the soul that Baha’ism emanates

See the nonsensical thinking you have? I am sure you don’t which is again a pity.

 

So you all go on with your birth and death business while we worms in stool go about falling down before the Lord and begging His mercy upon us.

I agree with the worms part. Most candid confession you ever made.

By now, the people on this forum are aware of your fanaticism and your inability to think clearly. No one is going to change their views by reading your posts. Or to say your posts are as good as not existing.

[cbrahma]

 

We consider ourselves fortunate and blessed for that. It is a pity you have nothing to be proud of

 

Caste elitism at its finest!! Everybody in Kali Yuga is born sudra or lower.

[cbrahma]

 

 

By now, the people on this forum are aware of your fanaticism and your inability to think clearly. No one is going to change their views by reading

your posts. Or to say your posts are as good as not existing.

 

You're the fanatic and don't speak for the forum. Nobody made you ambassador. You haven't made a logical argument yet, and have constantly made personal attacks instead.

[shvu]

 

Caste elitism at its finest!! Everybody in Kali Yuga is born sudra or lower.

 

The frustrated Mlechcha's reasoning for not having a varna.

 

Here is a story in connection to your frustration

http://www.bartelby.org/17/1/31.html

 

ONE hot summer’s day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. “Just the things to quench my thirst,” quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: “I am sure they are sour.”

 

The moral of the story -> It is easy to despise what you cannot get [or what you do not have as in CBrahma's case here].

 

Cheers

[raghu]

 

Yet Hari das Thakur was born a Muslim and Mahaprabhu made him namacarya.

How to explain in your paradigm?

 

Why must I explain it? I never claimed that a non-Vaishnava could not become a Vaishnava. I just pointed out the standard in the shAstras is that one is considered to belong to the varna of his birth.

 

I notice that Theist is skirting the issue again with his predictable casteism propaganda and that you are also ignoring the scriptural evidence that I brought up previously. Just out of curiosity, is there any particular rationale you can offer as to why you quote scripture when it suits you and ignore it when it does not?

[tackleberry]

 

 

The moral of the story -> It is easy to despise what you cannot get [or what you do not have as in CBrahma's case here].

 

CBrahma, is this true? Do you feel inferior on account of this? Please don't. Just follow V, and everything will be alright. No need to feel frustrated over this, ok?

[cbrahma]

 

The frustrated Mlechcha's reasoning for not having a varna.

 

Here is a story in connection to your frustration

http://www.bartelby.org/17/1/31.html

 

ONE hot summer’s day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. “Just the things to quench my thirst,” quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: “I am sure they are sour.”

 

The moral of the story -> It is easy to despise what you cannot get [or what you do not have as in CBrahma's case here].

 

Cheers

That's wishful thinking. And who says it can't be obtained? Elitism is elitism.

The Vedas understand that in Kali Yuga the predominant varna by birth is sudra and lower. It's just plain arrogance to attribute a quality to one's self one does not have and hardly sour grapes to point it out.

[cbrahma]

 

CBrahma, is this true? Do you feel inferior on account of this? Please don't. Just follow V, and everything will be alright. No need to feel frustrated over this, ok?

I don't feel the least bit inferior. Those who boast of their birth right are laughable. I actually find caste arrogance in Kali Yuga quite entertaining and so NOT Vaisnava. The fact that these self-promoters don't realize it, is even more laughable.

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

So proud of the land of their birth and caste also. Cockaroaches are also born in India boys and in brahmana families as well.

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We consider ourselves fortunate and blessed for that. It is a pity you have nothing to be proud of.

[AncientMariner]

 

I don't feel the least bit inferior. Those who boast of their birth right are laughable. I actually find caste arrogance in Kali Yuga quite entertaining and so NOT Vaisnava. The fact that these self-promoters don't realize it, is even more laughable.

 

 

I have to admit at least according to the picture painted in Srimad Bhagavatam it does seem kind of strange for people to claim to belong to any other caste than a sudra. I suppose there really are some Brahmins out there somewhere but you would think they would be so humble that they would never make the claim of being Brahmins in the Kali-yuga. I don't know exactly which caste the gentlemen you are debating on this subject are claiming to be a part of so forgive me if I am not sure if they are engaged in self promotion or not.

[cbrahma]

 

I have to admit at least according to the picture painted in Srimad Bhagavatam it does seem kind of strange for people to claim to belong to any other caste than a sudra. I suppose there really are some Brahmins out there somewhere but you would think they would be so humble that they would never make the claim of being Brahmins in the Kali-yuga. I don't know exactly which caste the gentlemen you are debating on this subject are claiming to be a part of so forgive me if I am not sure if they are engaged in self promotion or not.

What other reason can there be for accusing me of envy for a 'varna' I cannot achieve unless they think they have achieved it themselves?

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

So proud of the land of their birth and caste also. Cockaroaches are also born in India boys and in brahmana families as well.

 

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We consider ourselves fortunate and blessed for that. It is a pity you have nothing to be proud of.

[AncientMariner]

 

What other reason can there be for accusing me of envy for a 'varna' I cannot achieve unless they think they have achieved it themselves?

 

 

Gotta admit that very well could be the case and if so I can understand why you find it humorous at least in relation to Srimad Bhagavatam. I guess that is why Prabhupada is so easy to respect because he always presented himself so humbly and viewed himself so lowly.

[matarisvan]

 

I have to admit at least according to the picture painted in Srimad Bhagavatam it does seem kind of strange for people to claim to belong to any other caste than a sudra.

 

You are of the Varna you were born into.

 

It is better do one's own duty imperfectly than to do someone else's perfectly. Remember? This statement has no meaning if Varna can be assumed at will and modified every day. It makes sense only when varna is assigned to you by Krishna at birth and remains unchanged through life.

 

Overriding Krishna's assigned Varna and claiming to be something else or taking on Krishna's role by assigning varnas to others should be considered a sin.

 

It is a waste of time to discuss this with people who do not have Varnas as they will try find a position that is convenient for them. But it had to be said anyway to set the record straight.

[AncientMariner]

 

You are of the Varna you were born into.

 

It is better do one's own duty imperfectly than to do someone else's perfectly. Remember? This statement has no meaning if Varna can be assumed at will and modified every day. It makes sense only when varna is assigned to you by Krishna at birth and remains unchanged through life.

 

Overriding Krishna's assigned Varna and claiming to be something else or taking on Krishna's role by assigning varnas to others should be considered a sin.

 

 

My understanding is that in Srimad Bhagavatam Krishna says that basically everyone in Kali-yuga is a sudra by birth. What varna did Krishna assign to you and how do you know it was Krishna assigning that to you?

[matarisvan]

 

My understanding is that in Srimad Bhagavatam Krishna says that basically everyone in Kali-yuga is a sudra by birth. What varna did Krishna assign to you and how do you know it was Krishna assigning that to you?

 

By reading the Gita and knowing your birth.

[AncientMariner]

 

By reading the Gita and knowing your birth.

 

 

What conclusion did you come to for yourself when reading the Gita?

[matarisvan]

 

What conclusion did you come to for yourself when reading the Gita?

 

Already answered in previous posts on this thread.

[AncientMariner]

 

Already answered in previous posts on this thread.

 

 

I wasn't able to find any specific caste that you claim birthright to just some comments about how we are not competent to determine our nature does that mean you are a sudra?

[theist]

Here in conversations like the past few days do we see the nearly impenetrable wall of Hindu hodge podge nonsense that blocks the adherents from transcendence.

 

Christians, Muslims, Buddhists etc. have their walls also but in many ways the Hindu wall is the thickest.