Caste System by Birth?

[theist]

 

I wasn't able to find any specific caste that you claim birthright to just some comments about how we are not competent to determine our nature does that mean you are a sudra?

 

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[raghu]

 

I don't feel the least bit inferior. Those who boast of their birth right are laughable. I actually find caste arrogance in Kali Yuga quite entertaining and so NOT Vaisnava. The fact that these self-promoters don't realize it, is even more laughable.

 

 

Who here is boasting of their birth right?

 

Who?

 

We are having a discussion on the Vedic point of view regarding varna and birth. No one boasted of anything on this thread.

 

Learn to discuss facts, instead of attributing false motivations to the other guy just so you can duck and evade the issues. Several scriptural quotes were provided supporting the birth-varna relationship and thus far no substantial response about them has been seen.

[cbrahma]

 

Most importantly, Prabhupada disagrees on the ascription of caste by birth, which is certainly a feature of Manu's law. 'People misunderstand Hindu culture, Vedic culture, that there are forced caste system. No. It is varnabhivyahjakam, [caste is determined] by the symptoms, qualities and qualifications, not by birth' (690525IN.NV). By accepting regulative principles, even Westerners (that is, mlecchas and yavanas) become brahmanas (SB 6.5.39P). Moreover, Prabhupada held that 'One should accept those who thus become Vaisnavas as being greater than brahmanas, Hindus or Indians' (CC Adi 7.23P).[18] Thus, where Manu disapproves of Vedic instruction for sudras or outcastes, Prabhupada says that this is not applicable to those who convert to Vaisnavism, for they are no longer on the level of a sudra or outcaste (740605R2.GEN).[19] In Prabhupada's understanding, however, the status of Vaisnava rests on the foundation of de facto ritual purity achieved through rigorous moral and ethical training. This can be achieved gradually through the varnasrama system or directly by following the regulative principles and practices of devotional service. Ritual purity on its own, however, is not equivalent to Vaisnavism. Though Prabhupada frequently insisted on the establishment of varnasrama-dharma, he occasionally hinted that there was such a thing as an egalitarian Vaisnava society which transcended it. 'So a systematic society means varnasrama-dharma. But there is another way. That is called transcendental society or Vaisnava society' (770122BG.BHU).

[raghu]

 

My understanding is that in Srimad Bhagavatam Krishna says that basically everyone in Kali-yuga is a sudra by birth. What varna did Krishna assign to you and how do you know it was Krishna assigning that to you?

 

I'm calling your bluff. Prove to me, down to the Sanskrit, chapter, and verse where the bhAgavatam says that everyone is a shudra by birth in Kali Yuga.

[raghu]

 

Here in conversations like the past few days do we see the nearly impenetrable wall of Hindu hodge podge nonsense that blocks the adherents from transcendence.

 

Christians, Muslims, Buddhists etc. have their walls also but in many ways the Hindu wall is the thickest.

 

And once again, religious hatred rears its ugly head.

[theist]

The foolishness of caste by birth theory is easily seen in this example.

 

A neurosurgeon has a son. Does that mean that all he has to do is grow up and he will automatically be accepted as a neurosurgeon? Hardly.

 

He will have had the advantage of his father being able to sow seeds of medical knowledge into the boy as he grew and inspire him to go to medical school himself but that will be the extent of the advantage. If the boy does not himself take the training to be a neurosurgeon but his only claim is that "I was born in a neurosurgeons family" will any of the participants in this thread consider him a surgeon and allow him to operate on their own brain.

 

Some people here need to gain a little more practical intelligence in this matter.

[matarisvan]

 

The foolishness of caste by birth theory is easily seen in this example.

 

Right...That is a better example than Prabhupada assigning Brahmana status to Pedophiles.

 

Your depth of knowledge is impressive.

[AncientMariner]

 

I'm calling your bluff. Prove to me, down to the Sanskrit, chapter, and verse where the bhAgavatam says that everyone is a shudra by birth in Kali Yuga.

 

In fairness you are right on that point it was one of Prabhupada's purports that says 99% of the people are not twice born or something in the Kali-yuga and therefore their intelligence is on the level of sudra and women. That is what I was remembering so I apologize if I misrepresented Srimad Bhagavatam.

[raghu]

 

The foolishness of caste by birth theory is easily seen in this example.

 

A neurosurgeon has a son. Does that mean that all he has to do is grow up and he will automatically be accepted as a neurosurgeon? Hardly.

 

He will have had the advantage of his father being able to sow seeds of medical knowledge into the boy as he grew and inspire him to go to medical school himself but that will be the extent of the advantage. If the boy does not himself take the training to be a neurosurgeon but his only claim is that "I was born in a neurosurgeons family" will any of the participants in this thread consider him a surgeon and allow him to operate on their own brain.

 

Some people here need to gain a little more practical intelligence in this matter.

 

Theist needs to learn to read English.

 

We have been saying that birth is necessary. We did not say birth is sufficient.

 

Look up "necessary" and "sufficient" in an English dictionary.

[matarisvan]

 

In fairness you are right on that point it was one of Prabhupada's purports that says 99% of the people are not twice born or something in the Kali-yuga and therefore their intelligence is on the level of sudra and women. That is what I was remembering so I apologize if I misrepresented Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

If you really believe your intelligence is to a Shudra level, then on what basis are you making arguments? With your low intelligence most of what you say will be incorrect.

 

Or in truth you do not really believe your intelligence is down to a Shudra level. You have been told that for a number of years and you just started repeating it.

 

Which one is it?

[raghu]

 

If you really believe your intelligence is to a Shudra level, then on what basis are you making arguments? With your low intelligence most of what you say will be incorrect.

 

Or in truth you do not really believe your intelligence is down to a Shudra level. You have been told that for a number of years and you just started repeating it.

 

Which one is it?

 

I have asked the same question of indulekhadasi but never got an answer.

 

It's strange to me that they want to identify themselves as shudras, but they still want to argue on the basis of scripture which is the activity of brahmin.

 

Perhaps it's just false humility? If they really believed themselves to be shudras they would be taking instruction instead of giving it. Or at least that's what scriptures teach.

[AncientMariner]

 

If you really believe your intelligence is to a Shudra level, then on what basis are you making arguments? With your low intelligence most of what you say will be incorrect.

 

Or in truth you do not really believe your intelligence is down to a Shudra level. You have been told that for a number of years and you just started repeating it.

 

Which one is it?

 

I am just trying to figure all this stuff out. I don't consider myself even making any arguments, more like asking questions.

[matarisvan]

 

Theist needs to learn to read English.

 

We have been saying that birth is necessary. We did not say birth is sufficient.

 

Look up "necessary" and "sufficient" in an English dictionary.

 

Theist needs to learn a number of things instead of wasting his time making one offensive post after another on a discussion forum.

 

These discussions are bringing out a nice side in him. No doubt the cumulative effect of his decades of association with his special brand of transcendental Vaishnavism that he has been highly praising. Imagine how his posts will read if he spends another two decades doing what he is doing.

[AncientMariner]

 

I have asked the same question of indulekhadasi but never got an answer.

 

It's strange to me that they want to identify themselves as shudras, but they still want to argue on the basis of scripture which is the activity of brahmin.

 

Perhaps it's just false humility? If they really believed themselves to be shudras they would be taking instruction instead of giving it. Or at least that's what scriptures teach.

 

 

So you guys are saying that you are qualified to give Vedic instruction? On what basis do you make this claim?

[matarisvan]

 

I am just trying to figure all this stuff out. I don't consider myself even making any arguments, more like asking questions.

 

Ok. I will say this once more.

 

Varna is by birth only. This is how it has been understood, accepted and handed down for thousands of years. It is not for me or you as individuals to determine our "real" varnas. It is not something that Prabhupada or any other Guru can determine either. You know the kind of disastrous results that came out of elevating iskcon Gurus to Brahmana status by Prabhupada.

 

But the important point is if your intention is to worship Vishnu/Krishna then Varna does not matter. You simply worship Vishnu and do not bother with Varnas. And since it does not matter it is not important to you to try to beat into other people that varna cannot be by birth.

 

Iskcon does not provide an IQ test to determine if your intelligence is low or high. Do not be taken by these silly concepts.

[matarisvan]

 

So you guys are saying that you are qualified to give Vedic instruction? On what basis do you make this claim?

 

Rather, Raghu is saying as you claim to be at the level of a shudra you are not qualified to be discussing these topics, much less correcting others.

 

On the other hand we never claimed to be at the level of shudras. The restriction does not apply in that case.

 

You cannot object to this as you were the one who claimed to be shudra. It is not that someone else is accusing you of being one.

 

Now you cannot call me a shudra because your shudra intelligence (your own admission) makes it impossible for you to make that determination.

[Chaven]

I have met many people in my life and have still to find one person who is truthful.All ive come across are liars and cheaters.If a person can be truthful to himself God dwells in his heart.It doesnt matter to him what people call him sudra, brahmana etc.

[raghu]

 

I have met many people in my life and have still to find one person who is truthful.All ive come across are liars and cheaters.If a person can be truthful to himself God dwells in his heart.It doesnt matter to him what people call him sudra, brahmana etc.

 

 

Well if everyone is a liar, then logically it follows that you are a liar. Which means that the above comments are also a lie. So, your position is self-defeating.

[AncientMariner]

"But the important point is if your intention is to worship Vishnu/Krishna then Varna does not matter. You simply worship Vishnu and do not bother with Varnas. And since it does not matter it is not important to you to try to beat into other people that varna cannot be by birth. "

 

 

That seems to be a fair point to me.

[AncientMariner]

 

Rather, Raghu is saying as you claim to be at the level of a shudra you are not qualified to be discussing these topics, much less correcting others.

 

On the other hand we never claimed to be at the level of shudras. The restriction does not apply in that case.

 

You cannot object to this as you were the one who claimed to be shudra. It is not that someone else is accusing you of being one.

 

Now you cannot call me a shudra because your shudra intelligence (your own admission) makes it impossible for you to make that determination.

 

That's a good point. I hope you don't mind if I continue to try and learn however by asking questions.

[AncientMariner]

 

Rather, Raghu is saying as you claim to be at the level of a shudra you are not qualified to be discussing these topics, much less correcting others.

 

On the other hand we never claimed to be at the level of shudras. The restriction does not apply in that case.

 

You cannot object to this as you were the one who claimed to be shudra. It is not that someone else is accusing you of being one.

 

Now you cannot call me a shudra because your shudra intelligence (your own admission) makes it impossible for you to make that determination.

 

No offense, but are you qualified to be discussing these topics and correcting others? I am just curious to see if you consider yourself a brahmana or what caste you claim to be in.

[AncientMariner]

 

Rather, Raghu is saying as you claim to be at the level of a shudra you are not qualified to be discussing these topics, much less correcting others.

 

On the other hand we never claimed to be at the level of shudras. The restriction does not apply in that case.

 

You cannot object to this as you were the one who claimed to be shudra. It is not that someone else is accusing you of being one.

 

Now you cannot call me a shudra because your shudra intelligence (your own admission) makes it impossible for you to make that determination.

 

 

My understanding of Vedic literature is there is no shame in being a sudra because even they are capable of becoming devotees of the Lord so you didn't have to worry about offending me about calling me a sudra. Just go ahead and call me one.

[cbrahma]

 

Right...That is a better example than Prabhupada assigning Brahmana status to Pedophiles.

 

Your depth of knowledge is impressive.

Another cheap shot at an exalted Vaisnava by a person with no apparent knowledge or qualification but prejudice upon prejudice.

[AncientMariner]

 

Right...That is a better example than Prabhupada assigning Brahmana status to Pedophiles.

 

Your depth of knowledge is impressive.

 

 

I like what Kulapavana had to say on this in a previous message on this thread.

 

"Sometimes in the middle of a battle, you make commanders out of ordinary soldiers, because that is all you have. Srila Prabhupada had a tremendous faith in the purifying nature of the process of Krsna consciousness and he was hoping that these unqualified people somehow be helped by Krsna in the execution of their service."

[matarisvan]

 

My understanding of Vedic literature is there is no shame in being a sudra because even they are capable of becoming devotees of the Lord so you didn't have to worry about offending me about calling me a sudra. Just go ahead and call me one.

 

Once again, I am not calling you a shudra (I never did). You considered yourself to be at the level of a shudra and I am pointing out the consequences of your assumptions.