What is a Vaisnava

[Amlesh]

AND I don't think that Theist and CBrahma are too hot headed, they are the best I've seen so far in this Forum.

[matarisvan]

 

AND I don't think that Theist and CBrahma are too hot headed, they are the best I've seen so far in this Forum.

 

Give it some more time. Unless you are a christian fanatic yourself you will get to see the truth sooner or later.

[cbrahma]

 

Give it some more time. Unless you are a christian fanatic yourself you will get to see the truth sooner or later.

Fanaticism is attacking people like a bull dog when you have no substantive argument. That's your specialty.

[shvu]

 

Fanaticism is attacking people like a bull dog when you have no substantive argument. That's your specialty.

 

If we take a vote, it is you and theist who would be accused of fanaticism on this forum.

 

Consider this: Christians, Hindus, Vaishnavas...everyone disagree with you two.

 

Cheers

[cbrahma]

 

If we take a vote, it is you and theist who would be accused of fanaticism on this forum.

 

Consider this: Christians, Hindus, Vaishnavas...everyone disagree with you two.

 

Cheers

Speak for yourself, you blowhard.

A vote among entrenched Hindus? Right That would prove a lot.

All Vaisnavas do not disagree. There are some on this forum who have agreed and you seem to forget that I have quoted Vaisnavas in my favor (incipient Alzheimer on your part?)

[tackleberry]

 

Speak for yourself, you blowhard.

A vote among entrenched Hindus?

 

With sweet words like that, yeah sure, you're no bigot. [sarcasm, in case you didn't get it]

[cbrahma]

 

With sweet words like that, yeah sure, you're no bigot. [sarcasm, in case you didn't get it]

No, actually I'm not, considering what I was responding to. The context of course you conveniently left out , which were no less sweet. He's arguing statistics without a representative sample. If you can't take the heat you should get out of the kitchen.

[guliaditya]

 

Accepting Krishna to be the Supreme happens only when one is cleared of all doubts.

 

He himself said, "After knowing this, nothing is left to be known."

 

This is what I have also replied in my post.This is the conclusion of all the scriptures,acharyas & above all by Lord Shiva himself(greatest vaishnava).

Leave aside all debates & worship Lord Narayana as supreme personality.

This is Vaishanavsim.Any philosophy which deviates from it should be rejected.

 

Hari Bol

 

Pranaam

[cbrahma]

Why can't Lakshmi enter the Rasa dance?

[Dark Warrior]

Lakshmi is always present on the chest of Sriman Narayana. Therfore, when Madhava indulged in the Rasa Lila with the Gopis, She was also present, enjoying every bit of the Lila.

 

Stop differentiating Narayana and Krishna. Every avatar of the Lord is worshippable, and its only Hare Christnas who to this misguided 'Krsna' monotheism. Real Gaudiya Vaishnavas know better.

[cbrahma]

The Goddess of Fortune,” Shri Chaitanya concluded, “wanted to enjoy Krishna’s association and at the same time retain Her spiritual body in the form of Lakshmi. This form is certainly magnificent from the spiritual point of view, with all of the opulence and power of godly majesty. However, She did not follow in the footsteps of the gopis in Her worship of Krishna. Consequently, all of the opulence and power in the world could not gain Her entrance into Krishna’s most esoteric pastime.”

[tackleberry]

 

The Goddess of Fortune,” Shri Chaitanya concluded, “wanted to enjoy Krishna’s association and at the same time retain Her spiritual body in the form of Lakshmi. This form is certainly magnificent from the spiritual point of view, with all of the opulence and power of godly majesty. However, She did not follow in the footsteps of the gopis in Her worship of Krishna. Consequently, all of the opulence and power in the world could not gain Her entrance into Krishna’s most esoteric pastime.”

 

To speak of avyakta in this manner is really sick. And to compare Her with some ordinary apsara-s (which is what gopi-s are) is nothing short of blasphemy. Sri is samana, meaning She's with Krishna at all times and in all places. So where's the q of not gaining entry into some pastimes? You're one confused fellow, CBrahma.

[cbrahma]

 

To speak of avyakta in this manner is really sick. And to compare Her with some ordinary apsara-s (which is what gopi-s are) is nothing short of blasphemy. Sri is samana, meaning She's with Krishna at all times and in all places. So where's the q of not gaining entry into some pastimes? You're one confused fellow, CBrahma.

I'm just quoting Lord Caitanya. So your'e attacking the Golden Avatar himself. How sick is that?

[Beggar]

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has written:

aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa-tanayas tad-dhama vrndavanam

ramya kacid upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena ya kalpita

srimad-bhagavatam pramanam-amalam prema pumartho mahan

sri-caitanya mahaprabhor-matam-idam tatradaro nah parah

[The Supreme Lord, the son of Nanda Maharaja, and also His transcendental abode, Sri Vrndavana-dhama, are my worshipful objects. The most excellent method of worshipping Krsna is that which was adopted by the gopis, the young wives of Vraja. Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is evidence of this, is the flawless and most authoritative scripture, and Krsna-prema is the fifth and highest achievement of human life – beyond mundane religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and impersonal liberation. This is the opinion of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We have supreme regard for this conclusion.”]

Sri Krsna, who is the son of Nanda Baba and Mother Yasoda, is our topmost worshipful object. There is one Krsna. When He is in Vrndavana He thinks that He is the son of Nanda Baba and Mother Yasoda. He thinks, “I am Radha-kanta, the beloved of Srimati Radhika, and Rasa-vihari (the central enjoyer of the Rasa Dance).”

In Vrndavana He has a flute, a peacock feather, and a cow-herding stick; but when He goes to Mathura and Dvaraka, He gives these up and His mood is different. The Krsna of Mathura and Dvaraka has a different mood from the Krsna of Vrndavana. Now He thinks, “I am the son of Vasudeva Maharaja and Devaki.” Though He is one, He has many moods. Dvarakadhisa or Mathuradhisa Krsna is not really the original Supreme Lord, (Svayam Bhagavan). They are not Rasika-sekara (the topmost enjoyer of transcendental loving mellows) or Rasa-vihari. Only Radha-kanta and Rasa-vihari can perform rasa-lila. Without Krsna’s peacock feather and flute, He cannot dance with the gopis.

Aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa tanayas, tad dhama vrndavanam. This Krsna never leaves Vrndavana, and His sweet pastimes can only be performed there. In Dvaraka, Mathura and Ayodhya, there is no rasa dance. In those places Krsna has no flute or peacock feather.

Radha and Krsna – that is, Vrsabhanu-nandini Radhika, Nanda-nandana and Radha-kanta Krsna – do not leave Vrndavana for even a moment.

We see that Radha and Krsna met in Kuruksetra. Who are They? They are not really Vrajendra-nandana Krsna or Vrsabhanu-nandini Radhika. A manifestation of Krsna, that is, Vasudeva-nandana, and a manifestation of Vrsabhanu-nandini, that is Samyogini-Radha, met in Kuruksetra. There are so many deep conclusive philosophical truths in this regard, and from time to time I have told the pastimes in relation to these truths.

What is the nature of the gopis love for Krsna? Their love is so strong that they can take the heart of Krsna and control it. Rukmini, Satyabhama, and the other16,108 queens were all very beautiful, marvelous, and possessed all good qualities, but they could not take the heart of Krsna and control it. Only the gopis can do this, and among the gopis, Srimati Radhika can do so still more. In this way, the mood of the gopis in worshiping and serving Krsna is the highest.

There is one topic that Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has not included in this verse, which is that Radha-dasyam, service as a maid servant of Srimati Radhika, is higher that the worship of Radha-kanta, Vrajendra-nandana Sri Krsna. Sri Krsna bestows Radha-dasyam upon whomever He is pleased.

Srimad-Bhagavatam pramanam amalam. The best evidence of the above truths are given in Srimad-Bhagavatam. In all other Puranas, Vedic scriptures and Upanisads there are some worldly considerations, but this Srimad-Bhagavatam is the siddhanta of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Here we can realize our goal to serve Krsna, and more than that, Radha-dasyam.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

The Goddess of Fortune,” Shri Chaitanya concluded, “wanted to enjoy Krishna’s association and at the same time retain Her spiritual body in the form of Lakshmi. This form is certainly magnificent from the spiritual point of view, with all of the opulence and power of godly majesty. However, She did not follow in the footsteps of the gopis in Her worship of Krishna. Consequently, all of the opulence and power in the world could not gain Her entrance into Krishna’s most esoteric pastime.”

I'm not attacking Lord Chaitanya or anything like that (just to make it clear), but I've really never understood what He meant by this. Isn't Lakshmi Devi a form of Radharani... so wasn't She there anyway, since there's really no difference between Her and Radharani, or Krishna and Narayan (Her beloved spouse)? I also don't understand why He said 'She did not follow in the footsteps of the gopis in Her worship of Krishna.' Lord Narayan (who is Sri Krishna) is Her lover, and She worships Him as such, so I just can't understand how She wasn't worshipping in the mood of the Gopis. Help?

[Beggar]

As previously quoted on another thead,

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

Krsna has two types of expansions in this connection. One is called svamsa and the other vibhinamsa. The svamsa expansions are His plenary portions or portions of His plenary portions; and the vibhinamsa expansions are His infinitesimal parts and parcels, the living entities. In tattva-vicara (the consideration of philosophical truth) His plenary incarnations are one with Him, but by rasa-vicara (the consideration of transcendental mellows, humors or relationships) they are different. Sri Krsna is the source of all incarnations and all others are His incarnations or manifestations.

The same is true of Srimati Radharani and Her expansions. They are one "but by rasa-vicara (the consideration of transcendental mellows, humors or relationships) they are different." This is how the lilas or pastimes of the Lord unfold.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

As previously quoted on another thead,

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

The same is true of Srimati Radharani and Her expansions. They are one "but by rasa-vicara (the consideration of transcendental mellows, humors or relationships) they are different." This is how the lilas or pastimes of the Lord unfold.

So Lakshmi Devi (although She is a form of Radharani) is still a seperate entity from Her, and hence didn't look at Krishna the same was as Radharani and was excluded from the Rasa Dance for doing so? That's what I got out of the quote. I'm sorry for my ignorance Beggar Prabhu, but I could still use some clarification (unless what I said was correct, which I highly doubt since almost all of my speculations are wrong).

[theist]

From what I have heard Radharani expands as Laxsmi who expands as Durga. Durga is the expansion of Radha in contact with the material world. Laksmi is the expansion of Radharani as the consort of Vishnu Who exhibits and accepts worship in opulence. Radharani exhibits a different mood which is held back from Her expansions as Laxsmi or Durga.

 

So they are not interchangable by us. We cannot mix and match Them. The science of rasa is extremely rarified and subtle. We must be careful to not do things out of whimsy or try to invent anything new. We run the risk of rasabhasa or the improper mixing of flavors.

 

Just like someone learning to cook should not just start adding spices into the pot on impulse but must learn how they combine to produce a certain flavor. This science of rasa has been handed down in the form of examples and writing from the previous acaryas(accomplished chefs) who are familiar with what makes a pleasing taste. We must first learn to follow their receipies and then we will find room for our own personal tastes after we become experienced.

[Beggar]

<table><tbody><tr><td>Madhya-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 14: Performance of the Vṛndāvana Pastimes</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 14.122

svarūpa kahe, — śuna, prabhu, kāraṇa ihāra

vṛndāvana-krīḍāte lakṣmīra nāhi adhikāra

SYNONYMS

svarūpa kahe — Svarūpa replied; śuna — please hear; prabhu — O my Lord; kāraṇa ihāra — the reason for this; vṛndāvana-krīḍāte — in the pastimes of Vṛndāvana; lakṣmīra — of the goddess of fortune; nāhi — there is not; adhikāra — admission.

TRANSLATION

Svarūpa Dāmodara replied, "My dear Lord, please hear the reason for this. Lakṣmīdevī, the goddess of fortune, cannot be admitted to the pastimes of Vṛndāvana.

 

 

 

Madhya 14.123

vṛndāvana-līlāya kṛṣṇera sahāya gopī-gaṇa

gopī-gaṇa vinā kṛṣṇera harite nāre mana

SYNONYMS

vṛndāvana-līlāya — in the pastimes of Vṛndāvana; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; sahāya — assistants; gopī-gaṇa — all the gopīs; gopī-gaṇa vinā — except for the gopīs; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; harite — to attract; nāre — no one is able; mana — the mind.

TRANSLATION

"In the pastimes of Vṛndāvana, the only assistants are the gopīs. But for the gopīs, no one can attract the mind of Kṛṣṇa."

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

HERA-PANCAMI

[CHAPTER SEVEN OF THE ORIGIN OF RATHA-YATRA]

 

Laksmi-devi is not qualified to enter Vrndavana. There are eight prominent queens in Dvaraka, headed by Satyabhama and Rukmini, and 16,100 others as well. These eight are special, but none of them is qualified to go to Vrndavana. First they will have to take birth from the wombs of gopis, marry gopas, and then cheat their husbands and become Krsna's paramours, as all the gopis are. They will have to give up their husbands and everything else. They will be able to serve Krsna in Vrndavana if they are under the guidance of the gopis; otherwise such service will not be possible. Laksmi-devi could not enter Vrndavana, even though she performed severe austerities in Baelvana. She wanted to cross the River Yamuna and see the rasa-lila, but she could not.

 

Yogamaya is greater than Laksmi, and she can control everyone. When she saw Laksmi's austerities, she approached her and said, "You are a chaste lady, a brahmani, married to Narayana. Can you give up your husband and marry somebody else ? a gopa?"

 

Laksmi replied, "I cannot do it. How is it possible?"

 

Yogamaya said, "Can you make cow dung patties?"

 

Laksmi replied, "Oh, I cannot do that. I don't know how."

 

Yogamaya asked, "Can you milk cows?"

 

Laksmi replied, "I have never done it before."

 

Then Yogamaya told her, "You cannot go to Vrndavana, because you are not qualified. First you would have to take birth from a gopi's womb, associatewith the gopis, and try to follow them. You would have to marry a gopa like Durmukha, Durmada, Abhimanyu, or Govardhana Mala. Then, when you have given up that husband, you would be able to go to Krsna and make Him your beloved. This is the only process."

 

In one kalpa it was Yogamaya who questioned Laksmi-devi, and in another it was Krsna Himself, but both of them had to tell her the same conclusion:She is unfit for this rasa.

[guliaditya]

Begger,

 

Can u give me quote from Srimad Bhagavatam where it is written that Lakshmi devi was not allowed in the Ras lila????

[Dark Warrior]

 

Laksmi-devi is not qualified to enter Vrndavana. There are eight prominent queens in Dvaraka, headed by Satyabhama and Rukmini, and 16,100 others as well. These eight are special, but none of them is qualified to go to Vrndavana.

 

Where is the sastric pramana for this? Lakshmi is NEVER separated from Narayana. Even during Pralaya, when all the worlds are dissolved, Lakshmi alone is present with Narayana, on His chest, when there is nothing else.

 

In Vamana avatara, there is an amusing story. Vamana was a Brahmachari, so He asked Lakshmi, who resided on His chest, to leave Him for the time being. She flatly refused to do so, upon which Vamana hid His chest with a piece of cloth.

 

Swami Nammalvar, foremost among the Alvars, also pointed out this fact. Nammalvar, in his divine experience, recounted how Yashoda had tied Krishna with the rope, to a pillar. Nammalvar goes on to ask Yashoda, 'Yashoda, how could you do this? By tying up sweet Kannan (Krishna), you have also tied up your daughter-in-law'. The reasoning is this - Lakshmi is always on the chest of Narayana, and hence, she was also tied up with Krishna, by Yashoda!!

 

And Nammalvar, upon recounting this, fainted. He stayed unconscious for 6 months.

 

Look, this discussion is treading into murky waters. The difference between the Gaudiya Vaishnavas and the Hare Krishnas is this - The former only emphasize the difference in rasas as far as the forms of the Lord are concerned, but the latter make assumptions without pramanas and attempt to label Narayana as a demigod or something.

 

Theist equates Lakshmi with Durga, which is blasphemous.

 

Pramanas can be provided by me to refute every claim of Hare Krishnas who distort everything. But let it rest. Just remember that all consorts of the Lord are equal. Saranagati can be done to Rama through Sita, to Krishna through Rukmini, Radha or Satyabhama and to Varaha through Bhu Devi.

[tackleberry]

 

Theist equates Lakshmi with Durga, which is blasphemous.

 

 

Other points ok, but here dvaitins would disagree, because they consider Durga to be the form of Laxmi that controls tamas, the other two being Sri and Bhu, controlling satva and rajas respectively. To equate Laxmi with Radha, on the other hand, would be a little dubious, considering the lack of evidence in either Shruti or Smrti.

[Dark Warrior]

My understanding is that Radha and the other gopis are simply the Vanaras and Squirrels who served Lord Rama (with the exception of some leader Vanaras like Sugriva, Nala, Hanuman, etc. who were devas). To reward them, Sri Krishna included them in their sports. Of course, any variant views of the identity of the Gopis is also acceptable, because at present, all we know is that they are just exalted devotees of Krishna (Some people say the Gopis were sages who were devotees of Rama).

 

Radha as the foremost Gopi is also accepted by Sri Vaishnavas. Sri Andal makes a reference to a particular gopi who was the most favorite of Lord Krishna in Her prabandham. This could be Radha.

 

Equating Gopis with Lakshmi is not right. Lakshmi eternally enjoys whatever lilas the Lord undertakes.

[Beggar]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Sri Brahma-samhita 5.29

cintamani-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vriksha-

lakshavriteshu surabhir abhipalayantam

lakshmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam

govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami

 

SYNONYMS

cintamani -- touchstone; prakara -- groups made of; sadmasu -- in abodes; kalpa-vriksha -- of desire trees; laksha -- by millions; avriteshu -- surrounded; surabhih -- surabhi cows; abhipalayantam -- tending; lakshmi -- of goddesses of fortune; sahasra -- of thousands; sata -- by hundreds; sambhrama -- with great respect; sevyamanam -- being served; govindam -- Govinda; adi-purusham -- the original person; tam -- Him; aham -- I; bhajami -- worship.

 

TRANSLATION

I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, the first progenitor who is tending the cows, yielding all desire, in abodes built with spiritual gems, surrounded by millions of purpose trees, always served with great reverence and affection by hundreds of thousands of lakshmis or gopis.

 

PURPORT

By the word cintamani is meant "transcendental gem." Just as Maya builds this mundane universe with the five material elements, so the spiritual (cit) potency has built the spiritual world of transcendental gems. The cintamani which serves as material in the building of the abode of the Supreme Lord of Goloka, is a far rarer and more agreeable entity than the philosopher's stone. The purpose tree yields only the fruits of piety. wealth, fulfillment of desire and liberation; but the purpose trees in the abode of Krishna bestow innumerable fruits in the shape of checkered divine love. Kama-dhenus (cows yielding the fulfillment of desire) give milk when they are milked; but the kama-dhenus of Goloka pour forth oceans of milk in the shape of the fountain of love showering transcendental bliss that does away with the hunger and thirst of all pure devotees. The words laksha and sahasra-sata signify endless numbers. The word sambhrama or sadara indicates "being saturated with love." Here lakshmi denotes gopi. Adi-purusha means, "He who is the primeval Lord."

Shreela Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvati

[shree Gaudiya Math,

Calcutta, the 1st August, 1932]

[Beggar]

 

Begger,

 

Can u give me quote from Srimad Bhagavatam where it is written that Lakshmi devi was not allowed in the Ras lila????

I don't believe there is anything discussed about it in the verses (slokas).