Bored Out Of My Mind: How To Get Higher Spiritual Taste???

[krsna]

The taste of the pure holy name divine, suddha nama, Sri Nama Prabhu???

 

Otherwise I'll really never be able to fully and unconditionally give up my attraction to the so-called beauty, attraction and taste of this material world of Maya!

 

Please help me cross over the line of no-return...

[theist]

Bored??? Welcome to the club. Being bored means we have no vision of spiritual life. No one who has a genuine tibbit of actually Krishna consciousness can ever be bored for there is nothing boring about Krsna. He is ever fresh whereas boring means stale.

 

We are still on the outside of the honey jar looking in Krsna prabhu. You know what to do as do I. We have come up to the line of no return and must each individually choose to cross it. It's a personal free will choice to open the heart to Krsna or not. You know one taste of suddha-nama and the line is crossed...never to return but you like myself are either to proud to beg for it from the Lord or still need some convincing that there is no other way that makes any sense. We still hold on to the fantasy that we may be able to get the honey and still remain on the outside of the jar.

 

Afraid to move forward and afraid to go backwards. Such is our dilemea.

 

[seamusjcarroll]

dear prabhus throughout this journey, for myself , deep trauma that left bits of mind trapped in apathy and despair , a deep frustration ,that i thought would never go ,,till this day , still slowly lifting , courage comes from krishna ,as he wishes , i have many times screamed for change , and even though i feel helpless at times, the journey continues , and change continues , when i come out of my cave , i pray that love will finally show , i do my best to be loving , but loving some moments is very hard , unless i remember ,as memory comes , tears do flow, for sorrows known , and frustration held , lifts off of my soul , oh jai prabhupada , these long nights of the soul are all cleansing deeply cleansing , i meditate to the root of pain and sorrow until love shows , i put krishna in the center of my woe , my sins i offer up , begging not to be punished , but purification can feel very painful to , a sort of reverse punishment , but the result brings love to all , to bite the bit that hurts and tear it from your heart ,can only be done by love , krishnas love prabhupadas love, we are helpless without it ,this is a time for gathering your gifts and releasing your fears , and prepare for this great work to unfold , we will all be called to duty , prabhupada has not forsaken us , he is ever present with his devotees , even though we are weak and foolish , he is our ever well wisher , and no spiritual work is ever wasted, my track forever crooked as i follow loves goal , love is the path , this moment that we stand , ecstatic arousal , eternal presence , non comprehension , no doubt , a higher state of being , this is prabhupadas wish, and promise , do the work and success is garanteed, jai prabhupada

[cbrahma]

As sinful as I am, I still have managed to get a taste of the MahaMantra. If it weren't attractive, sweet to begin with, why would I persist? Why would anybody? Just reciting the same words over and over again would become so dry as to be intolerable.

[theist]

 

As sinful as I am, I still have managed to get a taste of the MahaMantra. If it weren't attractive, sweet to begin with, why would I persist? Why would anybody? Just reciting the same words over and over again would become so dry as to be intolerable.

 

Yes I get something like a slight reflexion of taste but krsna mentioned suddha-nama and the point of no return. When chanting I still have my motivations for chanting. I want something. Maybe it is liberation one day and a trip to heaven the next or just to enjoy the peaceful feeling that comes from chanting some rounds. But always something for my enjoyment.

 

The real bliss from chanting Hare Krishna is experienced by those who are no longer chanting to achieve that bliss. Rather they chant for the pleasure of the Lord exclusively.

[tackleberry]

 

As sinful as I am, I still have managed to get a taste of the MahaMantra. If it weren't attractive, sweet to begin with, why would I persist? Why would anybody? Just reciting the same words over and over again would become so dry as to be intolerable.

 

Just curious...how many times do you recite? And do you always feel like it's something new, or does it get monotonous at times?

[stonehearted]

 

The taste of the pure holy name divine, suddha nama, Sri Nama Prabhu???

 

Otherwise I'll really never be able to fully and unconditionally give up my attraction to the so-called beauty, attraction and taste of this material world of Maya!

 

Please help me cross over the line of no-return...

Be patient and persistent in your practice, and always do your best to avoid the offenses that undermine our progress. Patient. Persistent. Consider how much you chant, how assiduous you are about avoiding offenses, and for how long you have been chanting.What other desires do you nurture in your heart. he honestly introspective, and seek the best association you can get--not someone who will flatter you, but someone committed to actually helping you in your progress. Don't make any demands on the holy name; rather, submit yourself to him as his servant. If it's service to the Name you want, he'll give it. If it's some "bliss," you May want to reconsider your approach.

[cbrahma]

 

Just curious...how many times do you recite? And do you always feel like it's something new, or does it get monotonous at times?

I have experienced almost immediate relief by chanting though later in the day when my mind is preoccupied by the commotion of daily routines it becomes harder and harder to pay attention and it does become more of a chore.

I attribute the positive effect to two things

1. My mind is so polluted that transcendental vibrations are bright by contrast like a beacon in the dark.

2. The mercy of Krsna, in that there is never loss or dimunition. I have chanted many many rounds in my life and when I pick it up again , I pick up where I left off.

[indulekhadasi]

Since I am so sinful, I do not have any taste for the Holy Name. But for the past week, due to sickness, I haven't been able to chant even 1 round and I feel miserable. Chanting definitely helps the consciousness, I can see that now. Now, I am always getting cranky I feel worse than ever. Today I was more bored than ever, my parents went to a benefit dinner to help raise money for a new temple we are making but I can't go. I can barely talk and so I can't chant. I can chant in my mind, but we all know how canchal (unsteady) the mind is.

[cbrahma]

 

Since I am so sinful, I do not have any taste for the Holy Name. But for the past week, due to sickness, I haven't been able to chant even 1 round and I feel miserable. Chanting definitely helps the consciousness, I can see that now. Now, I am always getting cranky I feel worse than ever. Today I was more bored than ever, my parents went to a benefit dinner to help raise money for a new temple we are making but I can't go. I can barely talk and so I can't chant. I can chant in my mind, but we all know how canchal (unsteady) the mind is.

Are you saying a sinful person cannot experience any taste?

[indulekhadasi]

 

Are you saying a sinful person cannot experience any taste?

 

They can get only a slight idea of the real nectar. Nama prabhu is a person, and it is not good if we perform sins on the strength of the Holy Name. Nama prabhu will withdraw His mercy then.

[krsna]

Be patient and persistent in your practice, and always do your best to avoid the offenses that undermine our progress. Patient. Persistent. Consider how much you chant, how assiduous you are about avoiding offenses, and for how long you have been chanting.What other desires do you nurture in your heart. he honestly introspective, and seek the best association you can get--not someone who will flatter you, but someone committed to actually helping you in your progress. Don't make any demands on the holy name; rather, submit yourself to him as his servant. If it's service to the Name you want, he'll give it. If it's some "bliss," you May want to reconsider your approach.[/quote] :pray: :pray:

[stonehearted]

It's good advice if it helps you. However, it's especially good for me to think like this, too.

[cbrahma]

The topic of this thread is how to get a higher taste. So when somebody claims they are experiencing that taste in spite of all conditions, sins etc... are we to tell them they are doing something wrong?

[Shakti-Fan]

The Golden Volcano of Divine Love

by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja

 

Unlimited Names of God

 

namnam akari bahudha nija sarva-saktis

tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah

etadrisi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi

durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah

 

 

Translation

 

O my Lord, Your holy name bestows auspiciousness upon all. And You have unlimited names such as Krsna and Govinda by which You reveal Yourself.

In Your many holy names You have kindly invested all Your transcendental potency. And in chanitng these names, there are no strict rules concerning time or place.

Out of Your cuaseless mercy, You have descended in the form of divine sound, but my great misfortune is that I have no love for Your holy name."

 

Illumination

 

 

Here it is said, "0 my Lord, You have revealed the chanting of Your holy names, and all Your power has been invested within those names." Both the holy name of Krsna and its potency are eternal. All potencies or energies are found within the holy name of Krsna. And there is no particular time or place which has been fixed for chanting the name. It is not that one can only chant in the morning, or only after taking bath, or only after going to a holy place—there are no such conditions. One may go on chanting the holy name of Krsna anytime, anywhere, in any circumstance.

In this verse, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, "0 Krsna, You have given a most sublime opportunity to all. You are so infinitely gracious that You have given us the service of Your holy name (nama bhajana). Still, my misfortune is the worst. I don't find any earnest desire within me to take the name. I have no faith, no love, no tendency to take the name. I do not find any innate hankering to chant the name. What can I do?"

This is the second of Sriman Mahaprabhu's eight precepts. He says, "0 Lord, You have given everything from Your side to lift me up from this mundane world of relativity. Your attempt to deliver me is so magnanimous that all You require from me is a little cooperation in accepting Your grace, but I turn a deaf ear to Your magnanimous call. 0 Lord, I am hopeless."

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given us great hope in the first verse of His Siksastakam or eight precepts. He explains that the chanting of the holy name of Krsna, when properly undertaken, may progress step by step, revealing seven consequences. The first effect is the cleansing of consciousness; the second is liberation from all mundane relativity. As the third effect, positive goodness awakens within our heart and takes us to Vrndavana. Then, under the guidance of svarupa-sakti, the Lord's internal energy yogamaya, we come to the vadhu conception: we are potency, we are to serve Krsna unconditionally. Vadhu means that rasa which gives full connection with the Lord (madhurya-rasa).

Ecstatic Ocean of Joy

After attaining that stage, what are the other consequences that come? One becomes a particle in the ocean of joy, and that joy is not stale or static, but ever-new and dynamic; it is purifying to the utmost. Although we are allowed to keep our individual conception, still we feel that all parts of our existence become purified to the utmost when we take the name. And this will not only affect me, but all who are connected with this nama-sankirtana. They will experience mass conversion, mass purification, the utmost purification. These are the sevenfold results of chanting the holy name.

After mentioning this thesis in His first verse, Mahaprabhu now gives the antithesis in the second verse. When such great hope is there in the holy name, why are we having so much trouble? Where is the difficulty? Why do we not realize the advantage of the magnanimous sanction of divinity found in the holy name? Inestimable grace is coming from Krsna's side. He has given us so many opportunities, with the least requirement from our side. We must have some taste, some earnestness to accept the holy name; but there's the difficulty—we have none. So what hope can we have? How can we attain it? We may be approaching the holy name formally, but not from the core of our hearts, so by what process can we really benefit and make progress? The third verse answers this question.

Although one may feel that he does not have the minimum required deposit to receive the grant, still it is not a hopeless case. The very nature of this realization takes him to the conception of humility. When one begins to practice devotion towards the infinite Lord, he cannot but feel that in relation to the infinite, there is nothing of value in himself. He thinks, "I have nothing to give in return; even the minimum requirement for the Lord's grace is absent in me." That takes him to the conception that, "\ have no qualification. I am completely empty."

A devotee feels within his heart that he is not only unfit but too despicable for the Lord's service. Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami says: "I am lower than a worm in stool and more sinful than Jagai and Madhai (jagai madhai haite mum se papistha purisera. kita haite mum se laghistha)." We should not be discouraged when we think we have not even the least bit of merit which is required for the service of the holy name of Krsna, for this kind of consciousness is natural for a devotee.

At the same time, we must guard ourselves from an insincere conception of our own devotion; this is our enemy. To think, "I do not have the least liking or taste for the Lord," is all right. But to think, "I have some taste, some earnestness, some devotion for the Lord," is dangerous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cbrahma]

 

If one offencelessly chants Krshna’s Name even once, then Krshna will liberate him from material bondage. However, a person may be well-versed in all the Vedas, but if he still maintains an offensive attitude towards the Vaishnavas, he is eternally doomed. Is it any surprise, then, that we often hear people say, “Although I have been chanting for years, I have no taste”?

Srila Prabhupada writes in the Gaudiya-bhashya: “When one stops his offences against the Vaishnavas and utters Krshna’s Name even once, he easily receives the Supreme Lord’s grace. Criticising the sadhu is the same as criticising the lotus feet of Sri Guru, and that is an offence against the Supreme Lord. Gradually degrading to the level of bhagavan-ninda, an offender of the Supreme Lord is not only deprived of receiving prema, but due to his namaparadha he does not even come anywhere near achieving the benefits of religion, wealth, or material enjoyment.”

 

So one cause of no taste is offences. But if one has a taste, then its dangerous. No way out. Better not chant at all.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

So one cause of no taste is offences. But if one has a taste, then its dangerous. No way out. Better not chant at all.

You completely misunderstand. The idea is to cry out for Krsna, to weep for Krsna. If you think that you have some attainment then you how will you feel empty, and the only way we can attract Krsna by our chanting or service is by emptying ourselves.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja says in Gradations of the Holy Name, Hankering In Surrender Is Our Wealth

 

When we reach the highest position of disappointment, then sometimes, somehow or other, from the core of our heart we pray, “Oh Lord, I am helpless, save me! I am under the control of so many enemies in the form of friends. Such a hopeless position I hold, my Lord. From time immemorial I am serving all these masters, but they are not satisfied with my service. Now I find myself in this helpless position, my Lord. You should only come on Your own accord, and assert Yourself. Then they will fly away in fear of You. Otherwise I have no hope. This sort of ardent prayer from the core of the heart towards the Savior, that is what is necessary for us.

With our faith and earnestness we can aspire after that mercy. If we increase the quality of our negativity, the feeling that we are so low, the positive will be automatically attracted. We must try to increase the power of our position as a negative unit.

Trnad api sunicena (feeling lower than the grass), dainyam (humility), atmanivedana (surrender). Hankering in surrender is our wealth. We are the sakti, the potency, and potency refers to the negative unit of the Positive, the Potent. We should increase our negative side, our hankering. The Positive will be automatically attracted to us.

Whatever beautiful and valuable things we come across, we cannot but surrender ourselves to them. That is the criterion. If we find anything higher in our vicinity, our appreciation means surrendering unto that. According to the degree of our surrender, we have to measure what degree of quality of truth we have found. That can be measured only according to the degree and intensity of surrender, how much we can surrender to what we have found, to the point of no return. And the true devotees know no satisfaction or fulfillment. They feel no trace of satisfaction that they have achieved anything. Never. The inner sweetness of the truth and its infinite characteristic are such. The truth attracts. It can attract to the highest degree and magnitude.

[Vedesu]

 

You completely misunderstand. The idea is to cry out for Krsna, to weep for Krsna. If you think that you have some attainment then you how will you feel empty, and the only way we can attract Krsna by our chanting or service is by emptying ourselves.

 

Thankyou for sharing these amazing realizations from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Simply amazing purports to the verses of Sri Siksastakam.

 

I think I see the point you are making, and I hope it has become clear to the devotee who expressed some doubt. It's not that we can't have a taste. Naturally, we all hanker after taste and this taste will motivate us to continue further on the path. The point is, we can't think that it is by our own endeavor that this taste has come. We have to understand that it is only by divine grace, causeless mercy. We are not the doers, and if we start to think that it is by our own doing that we develop some taste, then that is false ego, which will ultimately be the cause for falldown. That is the "danger" that Srila Sridhara Maharaja is describing above, IMHO.

 

As SSM mentions, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, despite experiencing spiritual ecstasy of the highest degree, always thinks within himself that he is lower than the worm in stool and more fallen than Jagai and Madhai. That is the secret. When the Lord blesses us with taste, we need to feel ourselves completely undeserving, and simply count our blessings for the causeless mercy we have received. When we start to think "Oh, my sadhana is so powerful, I am such a fixed-up devotee, look at me, I'm more sincere than anyone, I am attracting Krsna's mercy by my big big service and powers of devotion", that is the danger zone. Pride cometh before the fall.

[rohini108]

"If anyone would tell you the shortest, surest way to all happiness, they would tell you to make it a rule to thank and praise God for everything that happens to you. For it is certain that whatever seeming calamity befalls you, if you can thank a praise God for it, you will turn it into a blessing."

A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life, William Law (1728)

[Amlesh]

After reading this thread, I think there is nothing left for me to add.

Anyways, it was nice to read.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

"If anyone would tell you the shortest, surest way to all happiness, they would tell you to make it a rule to thank and praise God for everything that happens to you. For it is certain that whatever seeming calamity befalls you, if you can thank a praise God for it, you will turn it into a blessing."

A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life, William Law (1728)

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

 

We must be prepared for anything: anything from the environment may come to us, but we are to face it with optimism. That is the key to success in our life. The highest advice is given in Srimad Bhagavatam:

tat te ‘nukampam susumiksamano

bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam

hrd-vag-vapurbhir vidhanam namas te

jiveta yo mukti-pade sa daya bhak

 

(Srimad Bhagavatam 10:14:8)

 

 

“One who, in the hope of achieving Your grace, tolerates all kinds of adverse conditions due to the karma of his past deeds, and passes his days practising devotion to You with his mind, words and body, is truly eligible for becoming your unalloyed devotee.”

We have no ability to interfere with the environment; to do so will only be a useless waste of energy. Rather, we must try to correct ourselves, so that we can adjust with the circumstances we find surrounding us. We have been advised that the best estimation we can make about the environment, of what is coming to me from the environment, is to see it, to understand it, as a grant. A grant means something which is given. But from where is this grant coming? It is coming from my Lord; and He is my Guardian. He is Supreme, He is Autocrat. So, what is coming from Him is His grace. We are living by His grace, always, and not as a matter of ‘right’. That we are living at all, that we are alive, we exist- this is not our birthright! If we exist at all, or not- it does not matter to the Infinite Whole. So, tat te nukampam susumiksamano: whatever is coming, it is His grace, it is not earned by my right, my ability, or my qualification. All and everything that is coming, and every part of it, is a grace coming to me.Our well-guided estimation about the environment will be such.

And we must be satisfied with whatever grant we get. It is not a matter of right; we are not to see with the eye of any right, whether we are getting our own ‘quota’ or not. “Am I getting my own portion, my own share?”- this should never be our attitude. At the same time, we must try to see that whatever trouble we find, is self-acquired: “Due to my own defective position, I am in such a condition. I am so low, so mean.” And our vanity will have to disappear forever, when we realise fully our dependence on His grace: “I have got no position; I am fully dependent on His grace. My whole existence, whole prospect, everything- it is only on account of His grace.”

Mahaprabhu said, krsnera nitya-dasa: consider yourself, know yourself, to be the slave of the Supreme Lord. A slave has got no rights; he is property, the property of another. Like animals who are someone’s property- like cows, or cats, or dogs- our position is such. The slave has no rights; but at the same time, by his master’s grace, he can enter the highest place, highest position. Such is the prospect of the slave of the Supreme Lord, of Krsna.

And it is possible only through service. Service means, to satisfy Him- not to satisfy me, not service for myself. But when I am determined to exist only for Him, to maintain my existence for Him, when I can think: “I am for Him, and everything is for Him”- then I have got some position. As Hegel told, “Reality is by Itself and for Itself”, so, everything is for Krsna, it is for Himself; and when I am for Him, then I have got some position. And as much as I can dedicate myself to Him, to being for Him, so much of a concrete or substantial position I may acquire. My position depends on my rendering sincere service to the Prime Cause. Mahaprabhu said:

jivera ‘svarupa’ haya- krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’, bhedabheda-prakasa

 

(Cc Madhya 20:108)

 

 

“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, as a molecular particle of sunshine is one with, and different from, the sun.”

The soul is of the marginal potency. From the independent standpoint, it can be seen that he has something in common with the Lord, and something different from Him; and such a position is inconceivable. Krsna is all-in-all, and the soul has a dependent position, as His potency. The Owner is He, and if we are conscious of that fact, we can thrive. We can improve our position, and we may also get the higher position, we may enter into the higher, most confidential service, only if we can satisfy the permanent servitors of that highest conception. Who is the highest servitor, Who can serve Him best- they should be the subject of our highest reach. Our aim should be to enter into Their group. And that is Radharani’s group. To enter into Her group, Her camp, Her association- that is radha-dasya.

Service is our life, it is everything for us. We thrive only there. And whenever we want to do the work of a master, we deviate from that; we go away, we degrade. By serving, we live, and by trying to make ourselves master, by lording it over others, we die.

So, you will have to ‘die to live’- by dying to your false ego, your self-aggrandizing tendency, you can live, live in the world of service, divine service. Everyone is trying to live in this world avoiding death, physical death. They are trying to ‘live without death’, and that of course is not possible. Just as it is not possible in the ordinary sense to live without death, so you also, who are aspiring for divine life, don’t try to live, without death! Die now! Die, to both your exploiting and renouncing tendencies, to really live in service divine.

Don’t try to live in the plane of exploitation; that type of ‘living’, in our estimation, is to face death. But to die for Him, for Krsna, is really to live. The position of the Centre, and our relation with the Centre, is such. The Hegelian theory, that we should ‘die to live’, because ‘Reality is by Itself and for Itself’- it is very applicable in Vaisnavism. Our false ego should be dissolved, and the ego of self-searching should awake. And, God-searching is self-searching: to search for Krsna is really to search for our own interest, our own higher interest. If you search for Krsna, your own searching-interest is also included therein, it is represented there. So, only search for Krsna- and with the spirit of service, not with the spirit of enjoyment.

[cbrahma]

 

See Prabhupäda, Caitanya-caritämåta Antya 20.12. The first of the only eight verses composed by Lord Caitanya describes the benefits of chanting God's holy names:

ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam

shreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam

anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamritasvadanam

sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate shri-krishna-sankirtanam

"Let there be all victory for the chanting of the holy name of Lord Krisha, which can cleanse the mirror of the heart and stop the miseries of the blazing fire of material existence. That chanting is the waxing moon that spreads the white lotus of good fortune for all living entities. It is the life and soul of all education. The chanting of the holy name of Krisha expands the blissful ocean of transcendental life. It gives a cooling effect to everyone and enables one to taste full nectar at every step."

 

 

From the above quote it does not seem that chanting and the taste of chanting needs to happen in a state of desperate crisis to be authentic.

All the excruciating conditions enumerated by some preachers need not be satisfied.

There are no hard and fast rules.

 

 

 

 

 

Shikshashtaka: The Eight Prayers by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

cheto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam

 

sreyah-kairava-chandrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam

 

anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamritasvadanam

 

sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krishna-sankirtanam

 

 

 

 

(1) Glory to the sri-krishna-sankirtana, which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years and extinguishes the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death. This sankirtana movement is the prime benediction for humanity at large because it spreads the rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of all transcendental knowledge. It increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it enables us to fully taste the nectar for which we are always anxious.

 

So there is every likelihood that one would experience a taste, rather than not, even at the beginning. Otherwise it would be a dry extraordinary austerity outside the reach of most people.

I will not lie to appear humble. I have tasted the sweetness of Sri Nama and do so almost every time I chant.

As Prabhupada would say so many times 'What is the difficulty?'

[rohini108]

I want to thank Shakti-Fan for nailing it right on the head. You post, above - very much appreciated. rsd

[suchandra]

 

The taste of the pure holy name divine, suddha nama, Sri Nama Prabhu???

 

Otherwise I'll really never be able to fully and unconditionally give up my attraction to the so-called beauty, attraction and taste of this material world of Maya!

 

Please help me cross over the line of no-return...

"Sri Abhirama Thakura had a whip and whoever he touched with it would immediately become an elevated devotee of Krsna."

 

[theist]

Along these lines there is the stage of steadiness. Steadiness means one chants even when one doesn't feel like it or is not getting an immediate blissful feeling from the chanting. It is one's duty and it pleases Krsna and one's guru to chant so he chants, feeling good or feeling bad it doesn't matter.

 

This is just another one of my personal walls that I have yet to get beyond. Suddha-nama lies somewhere beyond this wall I know but....