Suicide, another 17 year old devotee takes his life

[realist]

Yet Another suicide This one few know about as his parents left ISKCON after the Guru fiasco and the confusion must of had some influence on them. I only found out about this yesterday from his sister, a very nice girl who has been a devotee from birth (1987)

 

Did the confusion later contributed to the suicide of her brother, born in the movement in 1990 with devotee name? How many others have we not heard about because they left the movement years ago?

Being a guru, sannyas or GBC is a tremendously serious thing with so much responsibility AND CONTROL OVER OTHERS LIVES; those who take shelter of them are literally in their hands. It is a very life an death situation being a guru or sannyas leader.

 

When it was revealed Bhavananda (ex-guru) was travelling around having homosexual relationships, the next day after learning this, one of his New Zealand devotees committed suicide.

 

Others have left ISKCON in complete confusion; one girl just got kicked out of a Temple because Narayana Maharaj reindicated her. Is it really her fault she lost faith in ISKCON?

My question is, if Bhavananda never fell down, would the suicides have happened? I think the answer is obvious

Well. It goes deeper than that because out of the original 11 gurus, 9 have fallen down and I have lost count of the sannyasi's who have fallen down

So how do we understand this?

Should we see it as a young pioneering movement attempting to establish itself? Well one thing is certain, Sannyas, guru or GBC should not be given to anyone under the age of 45 unless it is a very special devotee, but how do you tell?

Wasn’t Bhavananda very special? Wasn’t Balarama das, ex Temple President and founder of Melbourne Temple very special, who was said to be the rock of Melbourne and will die in that position, yet also ‘blooped’ or left the movement suprising many.

How does this affect those who see them as roll models? If ISKCON never fell apart in the late 80's, this young boy (devotee name withheld but is from Melbourne Australia) WOULD NOT of committed suicide because simply no devotee commits suicide in a spiritual atmosphere, at least in these circumstances when it is children. The father of this boy has carried bitterness with him for years towards ISKCON, feeling betrayed by those he looked up to and worshiped.

 

What is the answer to this so confused devotees can be helped instead of ignored, shunned and pushed away?

 

Obviously intelligence tells me it is all a test to see if we can stay with Krsna even if everyone around us, including those we worship and admire, falls away.

 

But how is a child expected to understand that?

 

What do others think on this subject?

 

 

 

Some interesting background

 

 

The story of Ananda das

I am saddened by the news that my friend Ananda committed suicide last Thursday, May 18, 2006. Although I had not been in contact with him recently, he was the only gurukula survivor who would allow me to tape record an interview when I was studying the situation in the late 1990s. In his memory, I would like to share some of what he told me.

Ananda was born in 1968, in Maui, to a devotee mom. He attended Dallas gurukula from 1973 - 1975; L.A. gurukula from 1975 - 1977; and Vrindavana, India gurukula 1977 - 1982. He was among the most severely abused, made to stay in India for five years without being able to go home or see his mother.

Of his gurukula experience, he told me: "I had it worse than anybody else in Vrindavana. Every other gurukula kid can tell you that. . . . Danudhara and Naragadev were very vindictive people. They would do whatever they could to break you, no matter what it was.

 

(Bhavananda GBC for Vrndavan, would also come in the gurukuli rooms for inspection. In 1978 he found two boys were not chanting japa with the other gurukulis, Bhavananda become furious and picked up Ananda prabhu by the scruff of the neck and throw him against the wall - I {realist}witnessed that in Vrndavna Gurukula at the time when I was Temple commander. Ananda dasa was 10 or 11 at the time.)

From our interview:

NM: To your knowledge, did your parents make any attempts to get you out?

A: My mom made a lot of attempts. A lot.

NM: How come she couldn't get you for five years?

A: Because x-das went into her room at four in the morning and stuck a .38 in her mouth and took my brother and sister from her, and said if she didn't keep her mouth shout it was her brains on the wall.

NM: Do you know approximately when that happened?

A: Yeah. It was 1979. . . . My mom told me about all of this like in the last few months of her life. And I'll tell you, it was hard for me not to just go and blow the entire Watseka Avenue off the face of the earth.

[Editor's note: Ananda alleges that x-das kidnapped his younger brother and sister, frightening his mother into silence. Due to her status within the group, she was powerless to rescue Ananda from the gurukula in India.]

After India, Ananda was sent to several temples, landing in Denver, where he witnessed a beating. As a result, he feared for his safety and went to the police to have himself removed from the organization. He lived in foster care until tenth grade, then a boys' home until the end of high school (approximately 1986), then he joined the Army in December 1988.

He told me that he was doing okay until 1993, when he attended a gurukula reunion in Los Angeles. Reconnecting with ISKCON brought a flood of emotions that tormented him, probably for the rest of his life. Also in 1993, his mother died. I asked if his mother ever got her other children back. He said: "No, she didn't see them from that time [1979] until one month before she died. I drove her up north to see them."

Here are a few more excerpts from our interview:

NM: Did you ever have a chance to talk to your mother about what you had been through? Do you think she understood?

A: No. I tried to tell her but no matter what I'd say she would start saying, "I'm so sorry that that happened."

NM: She would block it out?

A: Yes, she just wanted it to go away.

NM: When you were growing up did you ever have any toys?

A: Not one that I remember.

NM: Did you ever have time to play?

A: In the afternoons, in Dallas.

NM: What would that consist of?

A: It was a free-for-all in the back yard. There were a lot of rules. It's funny because I was really young then, but it's like it's right there. From what I remember the afternoon time that was your time for like an hour, or sometimes they would load us up in the van. They'd take us out to this old park somewhere that had an old merry-go-round. There's actually a picture in some of the magazines of us on the merry-go-round. You can see me right in the front.

NM: How was the rest of the day structured?

A: Morning time get up, same routine devotees follow. Get up, go to mangal-arotik, then they'd give a class after that. But for us, hopefully, especially at the end of mangal-arotik, we would try to fall asleep in class. The older kids, Jagaman and them, used to say, that's the time to get some sleep. Try to sit in the back of the class, and some of them would try and teach themselves to fall asleep with their eyes open. Like if you nod off, that was dangerous. That meant that they would come up either behind you or on the side of you, and they would cup their hand like that and slap your ear. That was there in Dallas. My ears bled once.

NM: Did you ever have your ears twisted or bend as discipline?

A: Ripped back. My neck choked so hard from my beads that it cut into my neck. That's what that scar's from. He pulled so hard on my beads it cut into my neck.

NM: Did they take your ear like this and bend it?

A: No, they would twist it and pull it back. Or they drag you by it. Or they pull you by your ear and your sikha.

NM: Do you feel the authority figures ignored the kids' suffering?

A: Put it this way, I think we all pretty much gave up the idea of somebody coming around the corner any day to save us.

NM: So you felt helpless?

A: Yeah, I tried to run away from there once. They used to do this thing they would call "dog week." The thing you had to do for your punishment was you had to walk around on your hands and knees like a dog. They spoke to you; you couldn't speak in return, you had to bark. You couldn't eat with everyone else. You had to wait until they were done, then they sent you out, you had to go on all fours and lick their plates clean.

NM: You had to do it for a week? Did that happen to you?

A: About seven or eight times. I was a little kid back then, so I don't remember everything. I do remember that it was enough to where I tried to run away from there.

NM: Do you think some of the people on the staff at the schools disliked children?

A: Have to be, otherwise they wouldn't have an M.O. of handiwork as they dished it out.

NM: Do you think ISKCON in general had a bad attitude toward children?

A: The still do.

NM: Can you describe that?

A: They didn't care one bit. It didn't start out real punishing, it kinda got that way as more kids showed up. The parents would show up, I remember that. My mother came out to Dallas once. About a week before they got there, they kind of prep you up for it. They say, "If you say anything you're going to get it," or a week before they would make an example out of somebody, so you knew for a fact to just keep your mouth shut. That was a time when the bruises heal up or the black eye goes away, or your ear doesn't bleed after a while. The parents still showed up and the GBC (or not the GBC, but sannyasis) and whoever else came into Dallas still showed up. Either they suspected it and didn't do anything about it or they didn't care either.

NM: So they would hide it from the parents and others by coercing and intimidating you?

A: They'd find somebody to make an example out of and they'd say, "If you tell them this, this is what's going to happen to you."

NM: Were you ever made an example?

A: Yeah, I was kind of rebellious as a kid. That's why even throughout Dallas and India I took the brunt of a lot of their anger. I actually used to take beatings for other kids in India. I would stand up in front of them when the teachers would hit them. I'd stand there and I'd look at the teacher and they'd say, "Oh, so you want some too," and I'd just stand there and look at them and they'd come over and bam, hit me. They were bigger than all of us little kids that were there.

NM: So the parents were tricked into thinking the schools were safe for children?

A: Yeah. They got money for each kid, I found that out from my mom. Each parent was required to send a certain amount of money to gurukula to pay for the school each month. So they were making their money, so you lose money whenever kids leave.

NM: Do you think people in ISKCON protected the child abusers?

A: They still do to this day.

NM: Are a lot of the child abusers still around?

A: The most prominent ones are. Now they have titles like "maharaja."

NM: How does that make you feel, that someone who was an abuser now has some big title in the organization?

A: Not so good. It's almost to the point where I need to walk away from this thing or I need to take it into my own hands. I'm sure that's not what they would want because I don't think they'd like it.

NM: How often did you have to fear for your life, or fear that one of the teachers would seriously hurt you?

A: In India, a lot. I ran away a whole bunch of times. But I wouldn't run far, I would just go and sit by the Jamuna River. I'd always go back because there was nowhere else to go. This one guy who was there in the ashram, his name was Dr. Sharma, he was this Indian guy, and he took a real liking toward me. I guess he really saw how rough it was for me there, so he actually tried to get me out of there at one point. He was really fed up with it, I guess. So he lived up in Hardwar, he had a house up there, so he took me out of there one time and took me on the train up to Hardwar with him, and they sent people back out to take me back. That was the time where me and another kid were in the train station in Delhi and they had sent Naragadev to collect us. Naragadev had epilepsy and so he started having a seizure and he fell down in the train station and he busted his head open on some stairs. I remember he was just bleeding everywhere and I remember we just stood there staring and we just laughed at him. But of course his response to that was as soon as we got back to Vrindavana, after that it was just like a year of sheer brutal terror from him. That was '79. . . .

NM: Do you remember seeing Srila Prabhupada?

A: Yes, I have pictures of me next to him. I remember him very well.

NM: Do you respect him?

A: Only man on this earth, or who was on this earth, that I say I put my head on the ground for. No one else.

NM: When you were in school in ISKCON, do you remember studying Sanskrit?

A: I remember when I came back from India, I actually spoke Hindi fluently, and Sanskrit, too, but no matter how hard I try I can't remember more than a few words to save my life. I've never been able to figure that one out.

NM: The adults in ISKCON often preached that the demigods are lining up to take birth in ISKCON, and that all you kids who were born into ISKCON were actually demigods. You remember that? What did you think of that, did you think you could have been a demigod in a past life?

A: Yeah, actually I do remember that. I don't know if I was, I don't see how I could have been. I think if that's the case, then the biggest joke was on us. These supposed saints come, so let's get together and kick the shit out of them all the time. If that's the case and that's our welcoming party, it doesn't say much for us.

NM: Do you feel that ISKCON has in any way made up for what happened to you?

A: No. I've never even gotten a letter of apology from them, but I see why. It's kinda like plausible deniability. "We know about it, but if we don't say it, then we didn't know about it."

NM: Do you think you would ever turn to ISKCON or any of ISKCON's gurus for spiritual advice?

A: Never.

NM: Do you think that ISKCON treats you better now?

A: No.

NM: Do you see Krishna consciousness as your religion?

A: No. I don't call it a religion, that's why. I call it taking some of the theory that makes the most sense to me and just try to incorporate that into my life.

NM: Do you think that you got anything positive out of it, or did anything about your experience make you a better person?

A: Yeah, I don't take shit from anybody, but that's not exactly the kind of strength that was taught in the right fashion.

NM: Do you consider yourself a victim?

A: Do I consider myself a victim? Um, it's an interesting question. Not a victim, more or less as somebody who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. . . . I'm all that I've got left and I think I'm worth something. I'm tired of being taken from. Everything has been taken from me. Everything. By Nori J. Muster Also author of 'Betrayal of the Spirit'

 

 

 

Ananda dasa

 

[rohini108]

Dear Heavenly Father, I pray to you in the name of your son, Lord Jesus Christ. Because you know everything, you know Ananda das more perfectly than anyone. You know of his many births. You know of the life he has just lived. You know how he lived and how he died. His love for Srila Prabhupada is the most profound thing I have just heard about Ananda das. My heart is so saddened by his tragic life. I ask you Lord, I ask you in the name of your son Jesus Christ who taught that this kind of prayer would bear fruit. Please find Ananda das and whatever it takes, let him play with the cowherd boys in Vrndavan. Let him taste forever the unlimited nectar of your association. In Jesus I ask all of this. Thank you.

[indulekhadasi]

I echo the words of Rohini Suta Prabhuji.

[cbrahma]

That is the catastrophe of false gurus. Nothing could be more evil. And they proliferate. Crap shoot.

[theist]

 

Being a guru, sannyas or GBC is a tremendously serious thing with so much responsibility AND CONTROL OVER OTHERS LIVES; those who take shelter of them are literally in their hands. It is a very life an death situation being a guru or sannyas leader.

 

 

You are so right. It is an awesome responsibility and one should be posted as guru directly by Krsna otherwise one is going to be held responsibile for the reactions one has on the innocent by falsely claiming such a position.

 

Representive of Krsna is thoughoughly honest. No falshood in his dealings with others. Instead of prematurely climbing onto the vyasasana why not remain as siksa guru or one who points the way to Krsna while admittedly still struggling on the path ourself. At least it is truthful.

[theist]

 

I echo the words of Rohini Suta Prabhuji.

Amen as well.

[bija]

Please find Ananda das and whatever it takes, let him play with the cowherd boys in Vrndavan. Let him taste forever the unlimited nectar of your association. rohini

Thx. In Him who is above all rules....all things are possible. With Bhakti also!

[Sarva gattah]

Nori Muster: The adults in ISKCON often preached that the demigods are lining up to take birth in ISKCON, and that all you kids who were born into ISKCON were actually demigods. You remember that? What did you think of that, did you think you could have been a demigod in a past life?

 

Ananda dasa: Yeah, actually I do remember that. I don't know if I was, I don't see how I could have been. I think if that's the case, then the biggest joke was on us. These supposed saints come, so let's get together and kick the shit out of them all the time. If that's the case and that's our welcoming party, it doesn't say much for us

[bhaktajan]

You go Sarva gattah maha-muni rsi ji! :namaskar: :namaskar:

 

 

Aaaah, if I may add my own 2 cents into the mix:

 

To read what Srila Prabhupada & Lord Krishna & the Bhagavatam said about bringing advanced souls to be born here on this terrestrial planet earth via good parenting (garbho-samskara) see the thread:

"What Srila Prabhupada said about sex" --posted under 'Vedic Verses' on the main forum.

[suchandra]

 

Yet Another suicide This one few know about as his parents left ISKCON after the Guru fiasco and the confusion must of had some influence on them.

 

Well, the last person Srila Prabhupada talked to was Srila Narayana Maharaja and in that conversation Srila Prabhupada calls his own disciples monkeys. This conversation was recorded, was in Hindi and has been translated into English. But then Narayana Maharaja said to Jayadvaita swami that the 11 are to be worshiped as rati keli: assistants of Srimati Radharani and also equal to Jesus Christ. No doubt, when Prabhupada says his disciples are "monkeys", it must be true, agreed, but, it is doubtful that monkeys are fit to be worshiped as parampara gurus assisting the gopis. Jesus absorbs sins, that is diksha, Narayana Maharaja says quit Jesus and replace him with monkeys who can now absorb your sins? No wonder that people are getting confused with all these new terms like "guru fiasco", "fallen acarya" and "suspended spiritual master".

[bija]

Not only confused....but total loss of faith.

 

How do we understand the minds of the devotees when they suggest such worship, like in the case of Srila Narayana Maharaja's instruction and Srila Prabhupada calling them monkeys? What is in the minds of these two souls?

 

Are things justified for the ends sometimes? Surely in 1977 after only ten years of service these men could not have attained such high devotion as manjaris. Why was all that perception justified? Or is there a bigger picture.

 

Or was everyone back then just simply swept away by the rapid growth of the movement, how fast it was spreading, and that Lord Caitanya's name would conquer everytown and village. Caught up in the hype.

 

The hype is still a preaching tool today....and the enthusiastic new young devotee follows that lead and believes it... and often comes crashing back down to earth after a few years. And it can be that the structures that fed the hype does not offer the needed support when the crash comes. Is that spiritual shelter. This happens often in all prosleytizing movements, mormons, hare krishna, pentecostal churches....same old patterns.

 

Its so sad what happened and the pain. I can barely fathom that.

 

Excuse my ignorance...

[stonehearted]

 

Well, the last person Srila Prabhupada talked to was Srila Narayana Maharaja and in that conversation Srila Prabhupada calls his own disciples monkeys. This conversation was recorded, was in Hindi and has been translated into English.

I've heard this assertion (that Narayan Maharaja was the last person Srila Prabhupada spoke to), but I just don't buy it. He was surrounded by his disciples 24/7, and he certainly spoke with them when he felt inclined. More is made of this claim than it merits, as much as I respect Maharaja.

 

 

But then Narayana Maharaja said to Jayadvaita swami that the 11 are to be worshiped as rati keli: assistants of Srimati Radharani and also equal to Jesus Christ. No doubt, when Prabhupada says his disciples are "monkeys", it must be true, agreed, but, it is doubtful that monkeys are fit to be worshiped as parampara gurus assisting the gopis. Jesus absorbs sins, that is diksha, Narayana Maharaja says quit Jesus and replace him with monkeys who can now absorb your sins?

Ugh! Do you have this quotation? Otherwise, such claims sound like a certain godbrother of mine who quotes Srila Sridhara Maharaja as saying that pedophiles and "butt busters" (apparently a favorite mantra of this godbrother's) are paramahamsa uttama-adhikari gurus. Of course, Srila Sridhar Maharaja never said any such thing, or anything on the same planet, much less in the neighborhood, of such a thing. But this character keeps repeating it, much as people like Limbaugh and O'Reilly become enamored of cute little phrases they come up with and repeat them year after year, ad nauseam.

 

And your assertion that "it must be true" when Srila Prabhupada says his disciples are monkeys, but it cannot be true when he says, as he did on many occasions, that all his disciples are pure devotees? What we all need to do is to try to understand such statements in context and try to see the bigger picture.

[suchandra]

 

 

 

Ugh!

Although Srila Narayana Maharaja says in his book "The True Conception Of Guru-Tattva", that there was nothing wrong with the 1936 guru program of the Gaudiya-matha, he also says, a guru is a bona fide guru when he's a kanistha adikari. But you should note, "he cannot give you bhkati-lata-bija". But, "always remember, he is still a real guru, but you also might decide to change him". (The True Conception Of Guru-Tattva)

source: http://www.download32.com/true-conception-of-sri-guru-tattva--pdf--i21807.html

 

Q: Unless the guru is an uttama-adikari can he give the bhakti-lata-bija? Can a kanistha-guru or madhyama-guru also give this?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: A kanistha cannot give. Never. Only a madhyama-adikari can give it. A madhyama-uttama-adhikari is capable of giving the bhakti-lata-bija.

 

Q: Do you mean that such a guru is an uttama-adhikari who has come down to the level of madhyama-adikari?

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: He is a madhyama-adhikari who is a t the stage of madhyama-adhikari. Like the first stage of Narada (when he was the son of a maidservant in his previous life) or Sukadeva Goswami, or the second stage of Narada; One who is at their stage can give bhakti-lata-bija.

 

Q: But is kanistha or lower level madhyama able to give it?

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: A kanistha cannot. But a madhyama-adikari who knows the siddhanta and has served his Gurudeva, attaining some realization, is capable of giving. If the seed of bhakti is there in him, then he can give the seed of bhakti. If he does not have bhakti himself, how can he do this?

 

Q: If someone has a guru who cannot give the bhakti-lata-bija, then is that to be accepted as real initiation?

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: No, he should be changed. It is not real initiation. Bhaktivinode Thakura says that when a bhakta, a devotee, is thinking and contemplating his own situation and is asking himself, "What has my Gurudeva given? Nothing is going on. I am endeavouring to practice so much, and I am praying, but nothing is coming." Then he should realize that he has not received so much. The guru is not qualified. Then he should change his Gurudeva and accept at least a realized madhyama-uttama vaisnava as his guru. Otherwise he should not change.

[stonehearted]

Well those are quotations from conversations with Sripad Narayana Maharaja about some issues related to applying guru tattva. But that's quite different from "These 11 [monkeys] are to be worshiped as rati keli: assistants of Srimati Radharani and also equal to Jesus Christ. . . . Quit Jesus and replace him with monkeys who can now absorb your sins." That's what you claim he told Jayadvaita Swami, is it not?

 

And what about your lauding Srila Prabhupada's imputed statement that we're all monkeys nut apparently discounting his repeated claim that we're all pure devotees? My broader point isn't whether either is true, or whether or not they're mutually exclusive. It's to be careful about taking a quotation out of context and making some other point with it.

[suchandra]

 

That's what you claim

No, this is what is stated in his book, "The True Concept Of GuruTattva".

You might call it, "That's what you claim", but isn't this what actually happened?

Then why you're trying to make it look like a claim?

[Sarva gattah]

 

Yet Another suicide This one few know about as his parents left ISKCON after the Guru fiasco and the confusion must of had some influence on them.

 

Did the confusion later contributed to the suicide of her brother, born in the movement in 1990 with devotee name?

 

NM: The adults in ISKCON often preached that the demigods are lining up to take birth in ISKCON, and that all you kids who were born into ISKCON were actually demigods. You remember that? What did you think of that, did you think you could have been a demigod in a past life?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ananda dasa

 

 

 

Also what does it mean to be born into ISKCON?

 

Well, that begins at conception, what were the householder devotees thinking about during sex?

This is very important because ones conscious state at the time of conception determines what soul enters the womb however, there are other very important considerations also that have to be considered before an advanced soul or demigod chooses to take shelter of a womb.

Such DEMIGOD devotees of KRSNA can also see in advance, so if the parents and the ‘devotees’, their parents associate with and trust are NOT qualified by being Krsna Conscious enough to protect them from 21<SUP>st</SUP> Century materialism, impersonalism, mayavadi philosophy, plus the psychological, emotional, physical and sexual abuse that has disturbed many aspiring devotees in these pioneering years, as Ananda prabhu's story has revealed, they simply will not come.

The fact is the demigods will not take birth in ISKCON while such nonsense, and the inability to protect a devotee from birth, is not prevalent. Therefore, most probably, no demigods have taken birth anyway during these early pioneering years of Lord Caitanya's Movement. But who knows, some extremely tolerant souls may have taken birth and put up with the earlier nonsense just to be part of the pioneering years of ISKCON with Srila Prabhupada. Undoubtable there were some special humble souls who helped him

There is actually an example of a young 11-year-old gurukula boy back in the mid eighties (name with held) who is now a great preacher of Krishna Consciousness in Eastern Europe and Australia.

Apparently on a few occasions, some 'devotees' attempted to molester him sexually however, this boy stopped the attacks by chanting 'Sri Krsna Caitanya Prabhu Nityananda ... very loudly - VERY LOUDLY.

Every time the attempts were made, this young boy chanted like this. He kept chanting Hare Krsna, instinctively saying the HARE RAMA part of the mantra very, very loud.

The attempts eventually stopped, and the boy was never physically abused again, although clearly he was emotionally and physiologically abused. Regardless of this, he even preached to his abusers telling them Prabhupada would be disgusted at what they were trying to do, he humbly asked them to chant Hare Krsna and get help for their diseased condition. He also told his father of the offending devotees also.

 

Most don’t understand the fact that SOME (in the minority) older gurukuli boys performed ‘sexual abuse’ on younger gurukuli's due to the poor 'ISKCON awareness years of leadership' Even if they new it was going on, they had no idea how to deal with it and therefore it was mostly ignored or covered up

 

So why do some boys get involved in this nonsense, while others, like the story of the boy, who did not get involved, happen? This 11-year-old boy instinctively new it was wrong because such ‘lusty’ nonsense was not going to help his spiritual life, he in fact instead preached to his attackers.

 

So was this activity due to some devotees previously being polluted by adult devotees or was it caused by their own karma from a previous life, even if they were even born as a devotee in those early immature pioneering?

 

Well regardless of the answer, which is ISKCON was born out of the hippie degradation of the mid 1960's, one thing is certain. Most great devotees and demigods are not going to put up with such nonsense; so they will not come until their safety throughout their devotional life in ISKCON is guaranteed.

In this way, It’s not just what the parents think about at conception that such demigods consider before taking birth, it’s the whole ISKCON Society and how qualified THEY are and Krishna Conscious THEY are to protect them from even the influence of such basic things as ‘karmi’ Television.

 

The fact is, the great devotee demigods only want to go back home. Back to Godhead, and if they do not feel 100% safe and protected, they WILL NOT take birth in a present day ISKCON or Gaudiya Math devotee family where the TV is the central alter in their homes.

 

Urmila Devi Dasi from ISKCON’s Ministry of Education below partly explains this as follows however, there is still a lot to learn on this subject, for example, ‘molding’ children to be devotees must be real and not educated by those who imitated a pure devotee or those who just have academic qualifications.

 

Only a REAL devotee can make (ATTRACT) a devotee. And only a REAL GENINE devotee collective of PURE Krishna Consciousness devotees, householders and teachers can attract the demigods to take birth in Lord Caitanya’s Movement.

 

So, until we all become pure, the demigods will mostly stay lined up waiting until ISKCON is Krishna Conscious enough to come and take birth

 

· “Srila Prabhupada once said, "If you place a child in good association, he will act properly, and if you place him in bad association, he will act improperly. A child has no independence in that sense.... According to Vedic civilization, as soon as a child is four or five years old, he is sent to a Gurukula, where he is disciplined."

 

· Anyone who has worked with children knows they are vulnerable to their environment. Yet children also carry from their previous lives a complex burden of good and bad karma and a particular tendency of character. In fact, the mentality of the parents during conception attracts a particular soul—with particular inclinations—to become their child.

 

· Because of this, enlightened parents prepare themselves so that they can be in spiritual consciousness during conception. Thus their child will be receptive to the training they will give him. Srila Prabhupada says, "You can mold the children in any way. They are like soft dough." So the mold is essential when considering the shape of the final piece of sculpture. But the quality of the material one puts into the mold is also important”. By Urmila Devi Dasi

 

 

 

Only a real devotee can make (attract) a 'real' devotee to take birth as their child

 

 

And only a REAL GENINE devotee collective of PURE Krishna Consciousness devotees, householders and teachers can attract the demigods to take birth in Lord Caitanya’s Movement instead of those with 'monkey, cat and dog' mentality.

 

So, until we all become pure, the demigods will mostly stay lined up waiting until ISKCON is Krishna Conscious enough and safe so they can take birth and be protected to achieve their goal of going back home, back to serving Krishna in Goloka or Krsnaloka.

 

 

 

Only then will the 'demigods' come and take birth

 

[stonehearted]

 

No, this is what is stated in his book, "The True Concept Of GuruTattva".

You might call it, "That's what you claim", but isn't this what actually happened?

Then why you're trying to make it look like a claim?

 

I don't see anything in Maharaja's book about monkeys being better than Jesus. All he says is that, based on guru, sadhu, and shastra, those who aren't necessarily situated in prema (which is what an uttama bhagavat is, after all), but who are actually madhyama adhikaris, can share their faith with others, including through initiation. Does that mean that he necessarily endorses any of ISKCON's gurus specifically? Not at all, at least in practical terms. He easily dismisses the qualifications of anyone who won't go to hear him, or who won't allow his or her disciples to go hear from him.

 

The claim I was pointing out was what you seem to extrapolate from Maharaja's remarks, with all the pejorative language, which is very reminiscent (although clearly much milder) of something the aforemetnioned godbrother does, and which has marginalized him among even the most strident critics of ISKCON's guru system, whatever the heck it is. (Please note: I'm on record, here and other places, as having serious doubts about the "understanding" of guru-tattva evident in whatever ISKCON's system of selecting gurus is. It's a bureaucratic mess with little to no relation to Gaudiya siddhanta. I'm also not a member of Narayana Maharaja's sanga. I'm currently staying in Alachua with my wife, but I haven't been to see him yet.)

 

If I've somehow misunderstood your remarks, please accept my apology.

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

What does it mean to be born into ISKCON?

 

 

Well, that begins at conception, what were the householder devotees thinking about during sex?

This is very important because ones conscious state at the time of conception determines what soul enters the womb however, there are other very important considerations also that have to be considered before an advanced soul or demigod chooses to take shelter of a womb.

 

Such DEMIGOD devotees of KRSNA can also see in advance, so if the parents and the ‘devotees’, their parents associate with and trust are NOT qualified by being Krsna Conscious enough to protect them from 21<SUP>st</SUP> century materialism, impersonalism, mayavadi philosophy, plus the psychological, emotional and sexual abuse that has disturbed many aspiring devotees in these pioneering years, as Ananda prabhu's story has revealed, they simply will not come.

 

The fact is the demigods will not take birth in ISKCON while such nonsense, and the inability to protect a devotee from birth, is not prevalent. Therefore, most probably, no demigods have taken birth anyway during these early pioneering years of Lord Caitanya's Movement. But who knows, some extremely tolerant souls may have taken birth and put up with the earlier nonsense just to be part of the pioneering years of ISKCON with Srila Prabhupada. Undoubtable there were some special humble souls who helped him

 

There is actually an example of a young 11-year-old gurukula boy back in the mid eighties (name with held) who is now a great preacher of Krishna Consciousness in Eastern Europe and Australia.

 

Apparently on a few occasions, some 'devotees' attempted to molester him sexually however, this boy stopped the attacks by chanting 'Sri Krsna Caitanya Prabhu Nityananda ... very loudly - VERY LOUDLY.

 

Every time the attempts were made, this young boy chanted like this. He kept chanting Hare Krsna, instinctively saying the HARE RAMA part of the mantra very, very loud.

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The attempts eventually stopped, and the boy was never physically abused again, although clearly he was emotionally and physiologically abused. Regardless of this, he even preached to his abusers telling them Prabhupada would be disgusted at what they were trying to do, he humbly asked them to chant Hare Krsna and get help for their diseased condition. He also told his father of the offending devotees also.

Most don’t understand the fact that SOME (in the minority) older gurukuli boys performed ‘sexual abuse’ on younger gurukuli's due to the poor 'ISKCON awareness years of leadership' Even if they new it was going on, they had no idea how to deal with it and therefore it was mostly ignored or covered up

So why do some boys get involved in this nonsense, while others, like the story of the boy, who did not get involved, happen? This 11-year-old boy instinctively new it was wrong because such ‘lusty’ nonsense was not going to help his spiritual life, he in fact instead preached to his attackers.

 

So was this activity due to some devotees previously being polluted by adult devotees or was it caused by their own karma from a previous life even if they were even born as a devotee in those early immature pioneering?

Well regardless of the answer, which is ISKCON was born out of the hippie degradation of the mid 1960's, one thing is certain. Most great devotees and demigods are not going to put up with such nonsense; so they will not come until their safety throughout their devotional life in ISKCON is guaranteed.

 

In this way, It’s not just what the parents think about at conception that such demigods consider before taking birth, it’s the whole ISKCON Society and how qualified THEY are and Krishna Conscious THEY are to protect them from even the influence of such basic things as ‘karmi’ Television.

The fact is, the great devotee demigods only want to go back home. Back to Godhead, and if they do not feel 100% safe and protected, they WILL NOT take birth in a present day ISKCON or Gaudiya Math devotee family where the TV is the central alter in their homes.

Urmila Devi Dasi from ISKCON’s Ministry of Education below partly explains this as follows however, there is still a lot to learn on this subject, for example, ‘molding’ children to be devotees must be real and not educated by those who imitated a pure devotee or those who just have academic qualifications.

 

Only a REAL devotee can make (ATTRACT) a devotee. And only a REAL GENINE devotee collective of PURE Krishna Consciousness devotees, householders and teachers can attract the demigods to take birth in Lord Caitanya’s Movement.

 

So, until we all become pure, the demigods will mostly stay lined up waiting until ISKCON is Krishna Conscious enough to come and take birth

 

• “Srila Prabhupada once said, "If you place a child in good association, he will act properly, and if you place him in bad association, he will act improperly. A child has no independence in that sense.... According to Vedic civilization, as soon as a child is four or five years old, he is sent to a Gurukula, where he is disciplined."

 

• Anyone who has worked with children knows they are vulnerable to their environment. Yet children also carry from their previous lives a complex burden of good and bad karma and a particular tendency of character. In fact, the mentality of the parents during conception attracts a particular soul—with particular inclinations—to become their child.

 

• Because of this, enlightened parents prepare themselves so that they can be in spiritual consciousness during conception. Thus their child will be receptive to the training they will give him. Srila Prabhupada says, "You can mold the children in any way. They are like soft dough." So the mold is essential when considering the shape of the final piece of sculpture. But the quality of the material one puts into the mold is also important”. By Urmila Devi Dasi

 

 

Only a real devotee can make (attract) a 'real' devotee to take birth as their child

 

 

And only a REAL GENINE devotee collective of PURE Krishna Consciousness devotees, householders and teachers can attract the demigods to take birth in Lord Caitanya’s Movement instead of those with 'monkey, cat and dog' mentality.

 

So, until we all become pure, the demigods will mostly stay lined up waiting until ISKCON is Krishna Conscious enough and safe so they can take birth and be protected to achieve their goal of going back home, back to serving Krishna in Goloka or Krsnaloka.

 

Only then will the 'demigods' come and take birth

[suchandra]

 

It's a bureaucratic mess with little to no relation to Gaudiya siddhanta.

Yes, what the world population is expecting from the Vaishnavas is that things are clear and plain, the power of illusion dissipated.

Something like,

 

Krsna surya sama, maya hoy andhakar

Yaha krsna taha mayar nahi adhikar

 

Krsna is like the sun and maya, illusion is like darkness. Where the Krsna sun is present, there can be no question of darkness; the power of illusion is dissipated.

 

[Svarupa]

 

 

ISKCON Gurukula in Vrndavan today IN 2008?

 

Where are the western Gurukulis?

 

 

 

Interesting reading about 1978 below

 

 

Nori Muster: The adults in ISKCON often preached that the demigods are lining up to take birth in ISKCON, and that all you kids who were born into ISKCON were actually demigods. You remember that? What did you think of that, did you think you could have been a demigod in a past life?

 

Ananda dasa: Yeah, actually I do remember that. I don't know if I was, I don't see how I could have been. I think if that's the case, then the biggest joke was on us. These supposed saints come, so let's get together and kick the shit out of them all the time. If that's the case and that's our welcoming party, it doesn't say much for us

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Obviously intelligence tells me it is all a test to see if we can stay with Krsna even if everyone around us, including those we worship and admire, falls away.

 

But how is a child expected to understand that?

 

What do others think on this subject?

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Nori Muster must understand, like all of us, that each of us is born into a situation we deserve according to karma and desire. We have to understand that most of the first generation were born as 'karmis' and not devotees, including Ananda Prabhu.

 

If we genuinely desire to find a way out of this material impermanent frustrating universe, our sincerity will attract a bonafide Spiritual Master to come and help us.

The conditions (family, friends, society) we are born into equals the level of consciousness we have achieved and deserve, this was our first generation Most came from hippie communes and were yet to become purified in Krishna Consciousness to attract highly elevated souls although some probably were (like Sri Prahlad dasa from Australia), therefore the children they had when they joined the movement were certainly mostly not from the heavenly planets. They were not those demigods lined up to take birth on this planet Prabhupada talked about.

Nothing happens by chance.

If we are too materially contaminated, or trying to cheat Krishna, then we attract troublesome children to take birth in aspiring devotee families. Our godless atheistic society makes it very hard to understand what goes hand in hand with becoming Krishna Conscious.

If aspiring devotees in ISKCON became pure (Krishna Conscious) then such ‘Krishna Consciousness will attract souls from the higher planets, who are waiting for the right conditions to help them go back to Godhead and get out of this material universe

They will come and take birth within the ISKCON movement. In fact they are already lining up waiting to take birth within ISKCON families who can provide a protective safe Krishna Conscious atmosphere that will enable them to reignite their original ‘old’ and original Krishna Consciousness

It all depends on devotees becoming purified enough to be blessed with advanced souls waiting to join Lord Caitanya’s movement and come and join the ISKCON movement.

If the Krishna consciousness is not there at the point of conception due to householders being overwhelmed with lust and the sensual pleasures and the obsession to satisfy the itch of sex desire, then they will only attract embodied jiva-souls who are interested in mundane material worldly sense enjoyment, decorated with ‘week end’ religiosity.

 

Such embodied souls do not come from the heavenly planets; they have evolved through the lower species and human species on this planet

 

It is therefore up to those pioneering devotees to take the next step and provide a level of Krishna Conscious purification, that will attract the more advance embodied jiva-souls from the heavenly planets to feel safe to take birth as their children and help further attract the ensnared earthly embodied conditioned jiva-souls trapped in the quagmire of a technological advanced materialistic society.

It all depends on the determined commitment one has in chanting the Hare Krishna mantra whether or not more advanced living entities from the higher planetary system will come and take birth here and help spread the ISKCON movement.

We only get what we deserve. There is the influence and karma from past lives to consider instead of being sentimentally mundane and concerned for this one birth. As a society, we are not spiritually advance enough to undertand these facts

The success of ISKCON as a truly advanced spiritual movement depends on devotees in our time (at the beginning of the 21st century) becoming Krishna Conscious enough to be blessed with such advanced souls.

If devotees build the Krishna Conscious Conditions and foundations that will protect the upbringing of such advanced embodied jiva-souls, by being genuinely pure or Krishna Conscious themselves, then those on the higher planets will feel safe to come and take birth in ISKCON families who are indisputably Krishna Conscious.

It will only be then that embodied jiva-souls will begin to pour into our world where ISKCON will begin its two-fold effect.

1. Those who become Krishna Conscious enough on this earthly realm will attract those from the heavenly planets to come and take birth and join ISKCON.

 

2. They in turn will help attract more on the earthly real (those coming up through the lower species to the human form) who further attract more from the heavenly realm, who further attract those on the earthly realm - on and on and on, the snowball effect. In this way the ‘escalating snow ball effect’ of embodied jiva-souls entering Lord Caitanya’s movement will grow beyond our presently wildest dreams.

[suchandra]

 

If I've somehow misunderstood your remarks, please accept my apology.

No, nothing misunderstood, btw, HH Satsvarupa Goswami says something similar, things aren't easy these days.

 

SDG, posted April 24, 5:03 A.M.

 

Going to the eye doctor today. Nitai-Gauranga said what I wrote in Search for the Authentic Self, the hundred ways I fake it and discourses on seeking authenticity, was powerful theologizing, and he thanked me for writing it in 1996. I sought it as a struggle. Wearing a Hagar shirt and khakis and Nike shoes for the doctor visit. It's just for a checkup, my lens prescription may be too weak. Certainly handwriting is disintegrating, almost illegible, down to tiny scriggles on the page. I used to write legibly, with large loops that a typist could read.

 

In discussing authenticity, I mentioned the fear of the institution's disapproving of my openness. It was a minor concern back then, but it has become a major issue. Now I can't publish without peer approval. My statements of authenticity may be banned. That's because I have been deemed an untrustworthy writer. I wrote some sexually explicit lines in a book that was censored. Now everything I write has to receive a "no objection" stamp. Other ISKCON writers are not under this surveillance. I'm living with it.

 

In 1996 I saw authenticity from many different angles. It is certainly important in writing. Simply put, it means being truthful. You write the absolute truth and your honest response to it. You are not a flaky person.

 

5:22 P.M.

At 6:30 P.M. I take a few grapes. Trying to lose weight. Down to 162.5 pounds. My legs are not strong, and of course my ankles are wobbly, the left one half crippled. Otherwise things are not so bad except for frequent headaches. Malati wrote me and said I should not feel pressured to attend the Festival of Inspiration if it impacts my health. She said she wanted her Godbrothers to attend but didn't want to "pressurize" anyone. That was sweet and considerate. I probably won't attend the festival because it would bring on headaches. My heart beats fast, tachycardia. I wear eyeglasses. I have no teeth, full false dentures.

 

And what to speak of my mental deficiencies? Lost boldness to preach, lost power of memorization. My introversion, I'm convinced, is not a weakness or deficiency. I'm just one of those persons who gets his energy by going within, not by outward contact. So that's nothing to be ashamed of. But you should occasionally break it by being outward.

 

Chant your rounds and read his books. With tachycardia, you don't have to do much physical exercise; your heart is already pumping at a jogging rate.

 

How does Krishna look upon you? He loves all jivas. He wants us to come to Him, and sometimes forcibly breaks our material attachments. He loves us. He loves me. And my spiritual master is never displeased with any member. He forgives me my trespasses (as I forgive those who trespass against me). I pay so much attention to myself, absorbed in my fears and worries (such as fear of the cold, etc., in our January visit to Vrindavana). The monkeys jump on your back and in an instant steal your glasses... -->QuoteEnd-->

[Amlesh]

There'll never be a remedy if till one won't understand that Krishna Consciouness is not attained via academically but through mercy.

[stonehearted]

 

Yes, what the world population is expecting from the Vaishnavas is that things are clear and plain, the power of illusion dissipated.

Something like,

 

Krsna surya sama, maya hoy andhakar

Yaha krsna taha mayar nahi adhikar

 

Krsna is like the sun and maya, illusion is like darkness. Where the Krsna sun is present, there can be no question of darkness; the power of illusion is dissipated.

Who knows what they expect from us any more, especially after all the foolishness they've seen in us? But what they (and we) need is just that clarity. And honesty. And if there is weakness in our faith, in our surrender (which is the external manifestation of faith), we should admit it and defer some responsibilities to others who can carry the weight. Otherwise, we create the kind of disruptions we have unfortunately become familiar with.

[Kulapavana]

 

Well, the last person Srila Prabhupada talked to was Srila Narayana Maharaja and in that conversation Srila Prabhupada calls his own disciples monkeys. This conversation was recorded, was in Hindi and has been translated into English. But then Narayana Maharaja said to Jayadvaita swami that the 11 are to be worshiped as rati keli: assistants of Srimati Radharani and also equal to Jesus Christ. No doubt, when Prabhupada says his disciples are "monkeys", it must be true, agreed, but, it is doubtful that monkeys are fit to be worshiped as parampara gurus assisting the gopis.

 

If this is what Prabhupada thought about his disciples he himself had chosen to lead his movement, why on earth he did not find someone better? He had close to 5000 disciples and he chose 11 monkeys to lead his movement? You expect anyone to believe that?

 

This is yet another load of dung, invented to blame "outsiders" for the failures of our movement.

[Amlesh]

 

If this is what Prabhupada thought about his disciples he himself had chosen to lead his movement, why on earth he did not find someone better? He had close to 5000 disciples and he chose 11 monkeys to lead his movement? You expect anyone to believe that?

 

This is yet another load of dung, invented to blame "outsiders" for the failures of our movement.

Srila Prabhupad was quite clear with the verse in the Gita... "Sa Mahatma Sudurlabaha"... He knew that the birth of a great soul is always very very rare.

 

What he did is "To take out the best of a bad bargain".

 

Srila Prabhupad is a Mahatma and as a Mahatma he did whatever he could according to the circumstances.

 

Krishna consciousness is not so easy my friend.