Suicide, another 17 year old devotee takes his life

[Ashvatama]

 

The reason why Krishna appears in this world, could be that this is your ulterior motive, to cause Krishna to appear and correct the deviants. Since this is Krishna's main concern to keep the parampara system working perfectly and deliver the fallen souls

 

It should be clear that any messing around is most sinful and as we see, ISKCON didn't learn anything from the past 30 years. Prabhupada also mentions the term "rebellious" quite often. Could be that this is our real problem.

 

No this is not true, many are learning while a few GBC's are holding on to the old ways. Many are trying to understand what happened

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

 

So the next question is, why did many accept the ‘chosen gurus’ in the same way, after Prabhupada's passing, out of good faith, thinking they represented Prabhupada?

 

Weren't they just like the early Prabhupada disciples who followed him, yet eventually dicovered 'over a period of time, they were being mislead because such 'appointed gurus' were nothing like Prabhupada?

Yes, as already stated, MOST did not know who Prabhupada really was in the beginning, maybe a few did, however for most of us, he proved to us, over time he was and is a pure devotee of Krsna with his wonderful example of what is expected of a pure devotee. As a result of getting to know Prabhupada more and more, our faith and understanding of who he really is, increased.

In the same way, many of the second generation of devotees also did not really know if their gurus are pure devotees either. In actual fact, most were attracted to the movement because of Prabhupada. However, due to him not being physically present after 1977, they took shelter of one of his eleven guru disciples, who they expected to be like Prabhupada.

Once again the test of time would proved nearly all of them were not pure devotees and that they were just imitating Prabhupada

Again, it is the test of time. One by one these new gurus began falling down.

AGAIN I EMPHASIZE Remember, Prabhupada past the test of time, he came alone to America, preached to all who wanted to hear, wrote so many books, established so many Temple, taught the devotees everything from devotee dress to cooking to building Rathayatra carts. He never wavered and so devotees became stronger in there worship and love for him. Many might not of realized whom he was when they joined, but other time, they saw in him, due to his actions and preaching, the pure devotee that he is

A good example of one seeking for a guru is George Harrison, his first choice of a guru was not Prabhupada, he first went to Mahesh yogi and thought he was a great transcendentalist but as soon as he saw that he tried to have sex with Mia Farrows sister, he rejected him as bogus, he was exposed by the test of time. If any so called guru fails the test of time, then they must be rejected. On the other hand Prabhupada never ever wavered and was preaching about Krishna to his last breath in Vrndavana in 1977, in this way I might not of known he was a pure devotee as a young seeking 17 year old right at the begining of his ISKCON Movement, but I certainly do know now.

There is another consideration also thet is very difficult to understand, personally, why was I within the first 20 devotees to join the movement in Australia? Why did others come to the movement after Prabhupada had left this world and experience the ‘guru bungle years? We can only presume our past lives have a lot to do with all this

 

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[Kulapavana]

 

Yes, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja gave permission to 2 of his disciples to initiate as ritviks in his presence. These new disciples were then Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja's disciples. Good point you mention this.

 

That is not what happened. These newly initiated disciples were grand-disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta. It was very clear. And it still has nothing to do with not appointing one person to lead the mission.

[cbrahma]

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta did not nominate one person to lead Gaudiya Matha - that has NOTHING to do with his disciples becoming gurus and initiating their own disciples, because that is part of our tradition. He gave permission to 2 of his disciples to initiate even in his presence! You are comparing apples and oranges. In the same way Prabhupada did not nominate one leader to take charge of Iskcon, but he named 11 disciples to take on the role of gurus within Iskcon. It is very obvious to those who keep their eyes open.

It is not at all obvious that the 'eleven' were meant to be diska gurus to be worshipped like uttama-adhikari pure devotees the way Prabhuapda was worshipped.

The notorious 'tape' has been heard by many and many have not seen any such thing as obvious.

It is only obvious if you want to believe it.

 

 

The only remotely relevant "evidence" (the appointment tape) has been forensically tested and found to have been tampered with/edited and as such inadmissible. Even that tape does not state that these people will be the successor acharya's of ISKCON.

http://iskconreview.blogspot.com/2006/08/srila-prabhupada-on-failure-of-iskcon.html

 

[Kulapavana]

 

It is not at all obvious that the 'eleven' were meant to be diska gurus to be worshipped like uttama-adhikari pure devotees the way Prabhuapda was worshipped.

 

Yes, it was obvious from the tape that these 11 were meant to be diksa gurus. However, the level of their worship was a pure fantasy and a direct result of the personality cultism that developed in ISKCON. The personality cultism and guru hysteria is still visible among some devotees, most notably among the ritviks.

[cbrahma]

 

Yes, it was obvious from the tape that these 11 were meant to be diksa gurus. However, the level of their worship was a pure fantasy and a direct result of the personality cultism that developed in ISKCON. The personality cultism and guru hysteria is still visible among some devotees, most notably among the ritviks.

To begin with ,the tape was doctored and even in its doctored state it is by way of inference, not by explicit statement that one could come to any such conclusion. It is far from obvious.

There is no explicit designation by Prabhupada in any form whatsoever to authorize anybody to become diksa guru on his own behalf when Prabhuapda is gone. If you have such evidence, produce it.

[Kulapavana]

"The only remotely relevant "evidence" (the appointment tape) has been forensically tested and found to have been tampered with/edited and as such inadmissible. Even that tape does not state that these people will be the successor acharya's of ISKCON."

 

Of course SP did not appoint anybody to be initiating gurus after his departure. The words on the tape are a fake and devotees present in the room during that appointment were hallucinating or lying that he did make those appointments... (heavy sarcasm)

 

You people live in a total fantasy land, re-living the flashbacks of your formerly altered states of mind...

[cbrahma]

 

"The only remotely relevant "evidence" (the appointment tape) has been forensically tested and found to have been tampered with/edited and as such inadmissible. Even that tape does not state that these people will be the successor acharya's of ISKCON."

 

The words on the tape are a fake and devotees present in the room during that appointment were hallucinating or lying that he did make those appointments... (heavy sarcasm)

 

You people live in a total fantasy land, re-living the flashbacks of your formerly altered states of mind...

The words are not explicitly designating diksa gurus. That is your fantasy.

[Kulapavana]

 

There is no explicit designation by Prabhupada in any form whatsoever to authorize anybody to become diksa guru on his own behalf when Prabhuapda is gone. If you have such evidence, produce it.

 

The tape is clear, and so are the testimonies of eye witnesses. Besides, one can easily say that there is no explicit designation by Bhaktisiddhanta for Srila Prabhupada to accept disciples on his own behalf either. If you have such evidence, produce it. Still, that does not make him "unauthorized" in my eyes. The idea that guru must pre-approve any future gurus among his disciples is completely bogus.

 

If you knew the tradition you would understand how the sampradaya works. But because you do not, you are recycling incoherent arguments built from selected and fragmentary quotes of your guru. Quotes you clearly do not comprehend.

[cbrahma]

 

The tape is clear, .

False.

Here is a transcript of the critical dialogue

 

<TABLE id=table95 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>Satsvarupa: </TD><TD width=534>Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted.</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffcc99>Srila Prabhupada:</TD><TD width=534 bgColor=#ffcc99>Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya. </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>Tamal Krsna:</TD><TD width=534>Is that called ritvik acarya? </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffcc99>Srila Prabhupada:</TD><TD width=534 bgColor=#ffcc99>Ritvik . Yes. </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>Satsvarupa:</TD><TD width=534>What is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and ... </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffcc99>Srila Prabhupada:</TD><TD width=534 bgColor=#ffcc99>He's guru. He's guru. </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>Satsvarupa:</TD><TD width=534>But he does it on your behalf.</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffcc99>Srila Prabhupada:</TD><TD width=534 bgColor=#ffcc99>Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf. On my order, amara ajnaya guru hana, be actually guru. But by my order. </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>Satsvarupa:</TD><TD width=534>So they may be considered your disciples? </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffcc99>Srila Prabhupada:</TD><TD width=534 bgColor=#ffcc99>Yes, they are disciples, but consider ... who </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>Tamal Krsna: </TD><TD width=534>No. He is asking that these ritvik acaryas, they are officiating, giving diksa, their ... the people who they give diksa to, whose disciples are they? </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffcc99>Srila Prabhupada:</TD><TD width=534 bgColor=#ffcc99>They are his disciples.</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>Tamal Krsna:</TD><TD width=534>They are his disciples. </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffcc99>Srila Prabhupada:</TD><TD width=534 bgColor=#ffcc99>Who is initiating ... his grand disciple ... </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>Satsvarupa: </TD><TD width=534>Then we have a question concerning ... </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffcc99>Srila Prabhupada:</TD><TD width=534 bgColor=#ffcc99>When I order you become guru, he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. Just see.

(Room Conversation, May 28th 1977) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

What a confusing disjointed conversation. A definition of terms, merely.

No explicit appointment except in the minds of those who are desperate to believe it.

[AncientMariner]

Don't mean to be offensive but turning this thread about the suicide of a 17 year old person into a rehashed guru debate seems kind of tasteless. I realize there is relevance in how Iskcon was run and this persons decision to kill himself but at the same time if this thread is going to turn into a ritvik vs. traditionalist thread it seems it would be more respectful to do it somewhere else. Just my opinion.

[Kulapavana]

 

Don't mean to be offensive but turning this thread about the suicide of a 17 year old person into a rehashed guru debate seems kind of tasteless.

 

In that case also facts are important. Ananda was not 17 when he killed himself, but 37, and the guru debacle / Iskcon lies and mythologization may be relevant to the story.

 

Still you are right. I apologize.

[suchandra]

 

No this is not true, many are learning........

 

 

Ok agreed, they're learning, just read a note by ISKCON diksa-guru Srila Satsvarupa Goswami who says, posted 04 May 2008,

 

"Now I can't publish without peer approval. My statements of authenticity may be banned. That's because I have been deemed an untrustworthy writer."

 

Yes, this looks like they're learning.

[Sarva gattah]

 

In that case also facts are important. Ananda was not 17 when he killed himself, but 37, and the guru debacle / Iskcon lies and mythologization may be relevant to the story.

 

Still you are right. I apologize.

 

The heading of this thread is about the suicide of a 17 year old boy from Melbourne who was born into a devotees family in 1990. I suggest you read the first post again. Ananda prabhu is the following story on this thread. Read the first post, it is there you will find the facts

[Kulapavana]

 

The heading of this thread is about the suicide of a 17 year old boy from Melbourne who was born into a devotees family in 1990.

 

I see it now not much detail is given - it's very hard to formulate any opinions...

[Sarva gattah]

 

"Now I can't publish without peer approval. My statements of authenticity may be banned. That's because I have been deemed an untrustworthy writer."

 

Yes, this looks like they're learning.

 

This is the wrong attitude as well. ISKCON is a lot bigger than Satsvarupa Goswami. There are many many great devotees in ISKCON preaching and like any new organization, there are teething problems.

Look what the pioneers who established the Americas or Australia went through. Many back then just wanted to give up because it was too hard, but others persisted and eventually they succeeded.

This also WILL be the case with ISKCON because it is also Lord Caitanya’s prediction

ISKCON is just like a child learning to walk, at first attempts the child falls down but persists until eventually it stands on its own two feet. In the beginning many tried to run before they could walk.

This is what Prabhupada's Hare Krsna Movement has been going through for over 40 years, simply still learning how to walk

[Ashvatama]

 

 

[suchandra]

 

This is the wrong attitude as well. ISKCON is a lot bigger than Satsvarupa Goswami. There are many many great devotees in ISKCON preaching and like any new organization, there are teething problems.

Look what the pioneers who established the Americas or Australia went through. Many back then just wanted to give up because it was too hard, but others persisted and eventually they succeeded.

This also WILL be the case with ISKCON because it is also Lord Caitanya’s prediction

ISKCON is just like a child learning to walk, at first attempts the child falls down but persists until eventually it stands on its own two feet. In the beginning many tried to run before they could walk.

This is what Prabhupada's Hare Krsna Movement has been going through for over 40 years, simply still learning how to walk

Good points, learning how to walk. Could be added, for those who know how to walk, learn to follow. You might call learning to follow = learning to walk, but when Krishna sends His representative to give us knowledge it should be clear that Krishna's representative explains things in such a way that nobody has to stumble - it is clearly explained for all classes of sincere men to understand.

Interesting point below, bhakti starts when your heart is tuned to follow. Our mind says, no, this has to be changed. Just like Indians, they are so ashamed about the violence in Bhagavad-gita, they want it changed - it is all allegory - "there was no battlefield".

Without being able to actually follow the acarya and accept his words as they are, there is no question of bhakti.

 

Or like HG Sriman Amara prabhu is suggesting, "Prabhupada's books are a disgrace".

http://www.chakra.org/discussions/BMMay05_08.html

 

"So bhaktyā anuvṛtyā. Anuvṛtyā means following. Not that I have become more than my guru, I can invent something. No. Bhakti means, sādhu-mārgānugamanam. You have to follow the sādhu, the ācārya. That is bhakti. Bhakti does not means that I am so learned I can manufacture something. That is rascal. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ. That is bhakti. You have to become servant of the servant of the servant of the servant. Not that at a point you become suddenly very learned scholar, and you do not remain a servant, but you want to become a master, to dictate the guru. That is rascal. That will not help us. Here it is said, bhaktyānuvṛtyā. Bhaktyā, bhaktyā, bhakti means sevā. Bhaja sevayā. When bhakti, bhajata sukti. Bhaja means sevayā. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. So we have to understand this bhakti-yoga by bhaktyānuvṛtyā, not otherwise. Not that I am very learned scholar, I can give a different interpretation and… No, that is not bhakti. Bhaktyānuvṛtyā vitṛṣṇayā dvandva-titikṣayā ca."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.5.14

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Vṛndāvana, November 2, 1976

[Sarva gattah]

 

http://www.chakra.org/discussions/BMMay05_08.html

 

"So bhaktyā anuvṛtyā. Anuvṛtyā means following. Not that I have become more than my guru, I can invent something. No. Bhakti means, sādhu-mārgānugamanam. You have to follow the sādhu, the ācārya. That is bhakti. Bhakti does not means that I am so learned I can manufacture something.

 

That is rascal.

 

Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ. That is bhakti. You have to become servant of the servant of the servant of the servant.

 

Not that at a point you become suddenly very learned scholar, and you do not remain a servant, but you want to become a master, to dictate the guru. That is rascal. That will not help us. Here it is said, bhaktyānuvṛtyā. Bhaktyā, bhaktyā, bhakti means sevā. Bhaja sevayā.

 

When bhakti, bhajata sukti. Bhaja means sevayā. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. So we have to understand this bhakti-yoga by bhaktyānuvṛtyā, not otherwise. Not that I am very learned scholar, I can give a different interpretation and… No, that is not bhakti. Bhaktyānuvṛtyā vitṛṣṇayā dvandva-titikṣayā ca."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.5.14

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Vṛndāvana, November 2, 1976

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

311. End Notes or Appendices in Srila Prabhupada’s Books

Whereas some of Srila Prabhupada's books contain sentences such as the following, which when taken in isolation may be considered derogatory to and offensive against women:

Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape. (SB 4.25.41, p.)

 

When a husbandless woman is attacked by an aggressive man, she takes his action to be mercy. (SB 4.25.42, p.)

 

Generally, when a woman is attacked by a man--whether her husband or some other man--she enjoys the attack, being too lusty. (SB 4.26.26, p.)

 

Whereas some ISKCON devotees may have used these statements out of context as an excuse to offend, neglect and abuse women;

 

Whereas some people who read such statements may consider them to be derogatory or offensive, may misunderstand what Srila Prabhupada actually means, and may not want to further read those books, notwithstanding the many other beneficial statements in them;

 

RESOLVED: That the GBC Body recommends to the BBT Trustees that the above quotes, and other such statements as determined by the BBT, be explained in endnotes or in appendices.

 

SHOULD THEY BE LEFT IN OR TAKEN OUT?

 

The English word rape in the old English dictionary Prabhupada had did not mean abduction and forced sex, it meant play where the women teases the man in a kind of game who then forcibly has sex with the women in a kind of play of 'keepings off' enjoyed by both. Obviously there is a fine line here but the modern version of the word rape ia a human rights violoation.

 

What do you think do you think?

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Suchandra

 

Well, the problem is indeed that it might not be properly translated and also presented out of context. When Prabhupada said "rape", he meant that this is when a prince conquered a princess and brought her by force to his castle.

 

There were even in advance arrangements if the princess would agree to be kidnapped by such and such prince. And the actual kidnapping performed like a ritual.

 

Since this tradition to "force" a girl into the position of becoming the queen by "kidnapping" is lost and even forgotten, they consider "rape" as assaulting and violating a girl.

 

This is not what Prabhupada meant.

 

As soon a princess was kidnapped all the people knew that soon they will see her again, but this time sitting on the throne and receiving the consecration to be the queen.

 

It was rather a gesture of honouring the princess to install her on the throne and never to disgrace the princess. Hopefully they do the right thing and not create confusion. Thanks sd.

http://pratyatosa.com/GBC/

 

Prabhupada's citing the kysatriya ritual of "rape" is of course something completely different with what people have in their minds nowadays. Something similar what Prabhupada meant we find in the descriptions how during the time of knighthood a prince would "kidnap" a princess.

This kind of "kidnapping" or "rape" had nothing to do with harming a woman, but it was a tradition, a ritual how to "force" a girl to sit on the throne and become the queen of a king. Unfortunately these people don't know that even Lord Krishna Himself used to kidnap princesses and made them into queens to live at the royal court.

The arrangement was like that, that the princess was informed if she would agree to be "kidnapped" by prince such and such and only when the princess agreed a particular prince would kidnap her to bring her to his royal court.

Since today people have become like hogs and dogs they cannot understand such rituals of the ksatriya class and instead drag everything down on their own level, their own situation which has become unfortunately more and more often the situation of sickos. Only sickos would attack Prabhupada and interpret Prabhupada's words into sexual abuse.

 

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[realist]

 

 

Some more recent History

 

 

Currently there are 10 “high risk” Kulis from the 1970’s and 80s living in the Los Angeles area. Nearly half of them are considered “chronically homeless.” My guess is that there are similar situations in other parts of the world.

The ratio of people that grew up in ISKCON who are now experiencing mental difficulties seems unnaturally high when compared to other groups. Given the environment in which we grew up, it is disturbing, but not unexpected.

We’ve got to keep making this an important topic, both amongst our peers and throughout ISKCON.

Let’s honour the memories of

 

Nrsmha dasa,

Dhruva dasa,

Arjuna dasa,

Jiva dasa,

Ramanuja dasa,

Ananda dasa,

Abhimanyu etc,

by working together to help those who may be going through an extra difficult part of their lives. Let’s look out for some of the most vulnerable members of our Society.

 

 

 

Nrsmha dasa (Elijah B. Long) Gurukula story before his mysterious passing.

 

 

”Nrsimha was a loving person and I think that everyone who got to know him saw that sparkle in him. He was compassionate and kind. He cared for others deeply. There are many pictures I have of him laughing and having a good time with his Gurukula buddies.

Not all of his life was miserable because there were many beautiful, sincere moments when he knew that his upbringing in KC, was a special unique experience.

He had not resolved how the abuses and neglect fit into the larger picture yet, and he compensated for the inner pain and anger by drugging himself until he was numb, but when he was lucid, he told me that I had given him something that he knew was for his spiritual advancement. He just could not figure out though, if the movement was authentic and good, or if it was damaging to the growth of the individual spirit soul.

I think alot of Gurukulis and their parents who suffer from past digressions, abuses, and failure of trust within the ISKCON structure, also are probably struggling with this dichotomy.

And so if anything can be learned from the tragic death of my son, I think he would want what is not right to be corrected, and for all abusers and power-mongers who are covered by the false illusory energy, to be removed, so as to let what is right and good, develop and flourish.”

Daksi dasi gives insights into a parent’s perspective on ISKCON’s Gurukula system in the late 70’s and early 80’s and her relationship with her son throughout the years. I include this article because a parent who sent her child to gurukula wrote it and because it discusses the untimely death of a gurukuli who struggled with his past.

I attended Nrsmha’s memorial service in New Vrindaban July 2005. I sat with many of his fellow Gurukulis, parents, former teachers, and community members. We cried hard and long. It is a sad time when we gather to mourn the loss of one of our peers. These are the times when the term “ISKCON Gurukula Veterans” seems most appropriate.

In Honour of My Son Nrsmha dasa (Elijah B. Long)

Daksi devi dasi

Posted April 19, 2005

It has been 16 days now since the passing away of my oldest son, Nrsimha dasa who was 30 years old. I feel that I can now sit down and write this memorial message in his honor.

The process of grieving is especially intense for mothers who have so many emotional ties to the children they have carried in their wombs and then nurtured and cared for. My son was 30 years old, but I still saw him as my child who needed my loving words and support. He sought me out to reveal his inner sufferings and I anguished with him as he fought to make sense of his human experience.

My family and I joined the movement in 1976 when we moved to the Boston temple from northern Maine. I moved there with my son who was one and a half years old at the time, and then a few months later my husband moved in.

When my small son and I moved to the temple, he did not yet have a devotee name and it took a few days of thinking about what name to give him. The temple president at that time was Aja dasa and his first wife was Vijaya devi and they had a 3 year old daughter Cintamani. In any regards, my little rambunctious boy had a big voice and so Vijayadevi said “why not call him Nrsimha dasa” since he could be heard loud and clear and was as bold and fearless as Lord Nrsimhadeva.

I loved the name and so my baby boy began his spiritual life at the tender age of 1 1/2 with the name Nrsimha dasa.

Nrsimha was at the age where children learn to speak and he quickly began singing and chanting. The temple room was set up so that the men were up front near the altar and the women were in the back, near the Vyasasana. Nrsimha as a 1 1/2 year old baby who had been walking since he was 10 months old, would run up front during arati and I would hold my breath, not knowing if he was going to do something he shouldn’t like step on the altar.

In fact I think he did once, and the brahmacaris up front quickly realized that they would have to take him under their wings and teach him to chant and dance with them, since he didn’t want to stay in the back with the women. He learned very quickly to jump up and down, dance, pass the flower around for everyone to smell and to pay humble obeisance when it was needed. It was a joy to watch him evolve into a little Vaishnava, who brightened up the atmosphere with his happy, vibrance.

Our family lived at the Boston temple for 2 years and when Nrsimha was 3 years old, we decided to move to a farm community where a Gurukula was already running. We were preparing for him to enter school when he was a little older.

New Vrindavan produced some Brijabasi Spirit newsletters, and we found stacks of them in a closet at the Boston temple. We read them and thought that NV sounded like an idyllic community- the perfect place to move and be a part of. We made our move and it was shocking at first, because the community was very rundown, the prasadam was of poor quality, and cleanliness for home and body was difficult because facilities were primitive and third world like.

But the spirit, strength, commitment, vision, and resolve of the Brijabasis was endearing. It is what kept me there even though I often would think that maybe we had made a mistake by moving there, giving up any personal monies we had in our possession, and committing ourselves to help in the growth of this community.

In the Brijabasi Spirit newsletters, the community had been touted as a dynamic thriving farm community with holistic simple living arrangements, but what we encountered was a community that was striving for that ideal goal, but had not yet actualised it.

I resolved myself to jumping into the mindset of the idea behind NV as a spiritual pilgrimage site, and before I knew it the months and years went by and I played my part in the community.

I took care of children, cleaned, cooked and then eventually was teaching academics for the second graders at our day-school. We all thrived on the wonderful experience of helping with Prabhupada’s Palace as it was being built and there were many intensely beautiful, enlivening times during the growth of NV into the dynamic spiritual epicenter it evolved into.

When Nrsimha was 4 years old, it was suggested that he was ready to join the other boys in the ashram, at the old Nandagram Boys’ School. Aycutananda (Chutie) had also turned 4, so the two of them went into the ashrama at the same time.

Both Meghamala and I had qualms and doubts about relinquishing our sons over to the brahmacari ashrama, but the philosophy of not being on the bodily platform and not being emotionally attached to our children, was engrained in our minds, and we did what every other parent did at that time, and that was to harden ourselves to the mothering instincts in our hearts, and bear the discomfort of sending them off, to live from that day onward, away from us.

We bolstered our mixed emotional state of mind by thinking that they were in good hands (brahminical teachers), that they were making great spiritual advancement, and that this was what Prabhupada wanted. We saw our children infrequently, maybe once a week for a few hours on Sunday, and sometimes not even once a week.

It was really painful to go through this and I know that years later, my son told me that it was very scary for them- somewhat like being abandoned. (When he was in 8th grade, he had to read a book for English class called “They Cage the Animals at Night” about a family of little boys who were put into the foster care orphanages by their parents when they were small, and he told me, “mom, this is just like what it was like for us”. )

The boys learned that if they couldn’t have loving nurturance from the parents or teachers, then they would reach out to each other. When they were afraid or hurt or saw that something wasn’t fair (hypocritical ashrama teachers who preached hardened boot-camp philosophy and resorted to severe, abusive measures to try and train the boys to be enthusiastically submissive, and then smiled and patted the boys on the head when in the presence of the mothers and fathers)-

the boys emotionally bonded together and put their little arms around each other to comfort the other when one had been severely chastised, beaten, twitched, punched or humiliated. The boys became survivors in the sense that they figured out how to navigate the system set up in the gurukula, so that they could avoid getting the punishments.

They knew their parents weren’t going to come and save them, they knew the ashrama teachers presented a more holistic version of what went on at the ashrama to the parents than what was really going on, but it took years for them to finally have had enough and break free.

Two of the boys ran away from the ashrama and went to their parents and told them what types of things had been going on behind closed doors. The boys had all gone to Vrindavan India for one year when Nrsimha was 10 years old, and apparently the punishments and abuses were more severe there than what they had experienced in NV.

The parents on the other hand, thought that their sons were going to have the most elevated spiritual experience at the most holiest of dhamas. What went wrong?

All of this Gurukula atrocity has created an embarrassing horrific blemish, which has made all the world look at the movement and think what type of strange cult is this?

How could these people have sent their kids to these schools where all this abuse took place? These are the type of questions that are posed to me from people in the larger community around me, and from the world of academics while I work on my master’s degree in social work.

I look inside myself and I know that Srila Prabhupada had a beautiful heart and a wonderful vision of infusing the western world with the ancient, authentic Vaisnava tradition, and therefore I know that whatever happened was not meant to hurt anyone, but rather to create a sanctified holistic approach to the Bhakti-yoga pathway.

What I have concluded in my mind is that the men in the movement (and some of the women) became tainted with their inflated egos and they were intoxicated with a sense of status and power. This became their undoing as they abused the common devotees who worked so hard to attain some spiritual salvation and enlightment.

The children were not seen as beautiful Vaikuntha souls, but rather as not pure enough, and tainted with personal deficits that needed to be rooted out of them. The parents of the children saw their children as special gifts from heaven for them to love and care for, but when they turned their children over to the brahmacaris and sannyasis who headed up the schools, their status as devotees was put on a low rung of the hierarchal ladder.

My son came back to live with us when he was 12 years old and the schools were folding and closing down. The abuses the children suffered was circulating and surfacing. We moved away from NV in 1987 and a large part of that decision was because of a sense of living a false hypocritical life, and now the real truth of the matter was emerging, and it was ugly. Kirtanananda was becoming more crazy with power and denial and it was a nightmare.

I think, how could I have been so much under the illusion that he was a trustworthy advanced soul, carrying out Prabhupada’s vision? Instead I saw a mad man, a man who had fooled so many of us into dictatorial, unthinking adherence to his decisions and ways. That included the way the boys ashramas were run and the lack of good facility and status they placed on the value of the children of the movement.

Nrsimha finished grade school, high school and even went on to do 3 years of college at the Univ. of Maine at Fort Kent, majoring in Environmental Science. He constantly struggled with the past abuses he had suffered from in the ashrama for the 8 years he lived there from 4-12 years old.

I never sought counselling for him of which I now totally regret because there may have been a chance he could have recovered and been able to move forward with his life, making sense of all he had lived through. Instead I thought that our religious faith would give us the strength to work things out on our own, within our family setting.

Nrsimha rebelled against any adult authority at that point and he displayed behaviours that are consistent with adolescents who have been abused- juvenile infractions, alcohol and drug use, risk taking, etc. But when he reached his college years he began to understand and appreciate why people would follow a yoga path or undertake the spiritual journey inward to understanding the nature of the Supreme Lord and the nature of spirit-soul.

He seemed happier and when we took a trip to NV for our first reunion after being away from the community for 9 years, he told me that he wanted to take a break from college, and spend some time figuring things out about his life, but most especially to be back with his god-brothers, his gurukuli buddies, those guys that he was emotionally bonded to because they had formed their own family when they had lived in the ashrama together. Alot of the Gurukulis were raging about the abuses they had suffered and how nothing had ever been done to resolve the situation.

A big part of their rage was the fact that they believed the abuse was still going on with any of the younger children who might have been in any of the surviving gurakulas. They wanted to make sure no other children would ever have to go through what they had suffered from, and they wanted to make sure the older devotees in management positions wouldn’t just sweep away the mess and try to hide it away as though it could easily be dismissed.

All of this added fuel to the fire raging inside Nrsimha and created a more intense disgruntled, sense of identity. Most of the Gurukulis, who experienced abuse, turned to substance use of some sort. Especially the boys, because men tend to abuse substances to cover up their pain and discomfort, while many women learn to dull their pain with eating disorders.

By putting something in the mouth, the primal connection of some type of nurturance through oral gratification takes place and dulls the primal needs. It is totally dysfunctional and becomes first a disorder and later a compulsive disease. My son began using hard drugs when he was working in the big cities during his time away from us, and back with his old school mates. X1

It was his choice to seek out drugs and to take the chance of getting addicted, and being a risk taker, he plunged into the darkness of that world. He tried to recover and withdraw away from the drugs, but he relapsed many times.

This was a very scary time for his dad, his siblings and me. During one brief time of rehab clarity he met a young woman who worked at a devotee candle making shop in NV. They connected emotionally and she became pregnant almost right away early in their relationship.

[realist]

Nrsimha was extremely happy to be part of the miracle of the birth of his beautiful daughter, Mia Vraja Rupa Conn, who was born on Feb.2, 1999. He doted on her like he was the mother, carrying her around for the first 6 months without hardly ever putting her down.

Whenever she even so much as made a little whimper he would rush upstairs to see if she was okay. He felt so much love for her because he saw that she was a special gift from the Supreme Lord for him to love and care for. Mia’s birth was probably the highest moment in Nrsimha’s life, and watching her grow gave him immense joy.

His drug use cycled again and again, and the mother of Mia also participated in drug use. Their family was doomed to fail, as the parents were two dysfunctional addicts unable or unwilling to stay away from the drugs they were addicted to. Both of them entered rehab, the baby was cared for by the maternal grandmother, and the chaos of lives in turmoil affected all of the family members on all sides.

Nrsimha was living in NYC for the last 3 years and part of his reasoning was to have access to the methadone clinics there. He suffered from PTSD, anxiety disorders, and mood swings which were diagnosed as Bi -polar. Was his state of mind due to drug use, hormonal imbalances, past abuses while living at the ashram, or because of a combination of all those elements together?

All I know is that when I look at the life of my oldest son and try to put myself in his shoes so that I can get a sense of what he experienced, I become enraged at myself for not protecting him when he was small, and not seeking counselling for him when he began living with us again.

His greatest wish and what he was always working towards was to set himself up so that he would be able to have his daughter come stay with him for visits. He had plans to go back to school and finish college, purchase a house somewhere close to NV so that his daughter who lives in PA, could come stay with him for vacations etc. and he wanted to provide for Mia so that she would never be without and she could have the chance to explore her connection and roots with the devotee community.

These things have not manifested yet and my son died tragically in NYC on April 2, 2005 from a suspicious fall down a series of outdoor, concrete steps. Detectives and forensics are still investigating the cause and scenario of what happened but they state that it looks as though Nrsimha was assaulted, robbed and then either fell or was pushed down the stairs.

He then succumbed to hypothermic conditions. He left his body while alone in NYC, a man suffering from the hellish conditions of this material existence. But he never gave up trying and I told him repeatedly, that I believed in him, and that if he wanted to do something and he stayed focused on what that was, that he could certainly do it.

Nrsimha was a loving person and I think that everyone who got to know him saw that sparkle in him. He was compassionate and kind. He cared for others deeply. There are many pictures I have of him laughing and having a good time with his Gurukula buddies. Not all of his life was miserable because there were many beautiful, sincere moments when he knew that his upbringing in KC, was a special unique experience.

He had not resolved how the abuses and neglect fit into the larger picture yet, and he compensated for the inner pain and anger by drugging himself until he was numb, but when he was lucid, he told me that I had given him something that he knew was for his spiritual advancement.

He just could not figure out though, if the movement was authentic and good, or if it was damaging to the growth of the individual spirit soul. I think alot of Gurukulis and their parents who suffer from past digressions, abuses, and failure of trust within the ISKCON structure, also are probably struggling with this dichotomy.

And so if anything can be learned from the tragic death of my son, I think he would want what is not right to be corrected, and for all abusers and power-mongers who are covered by the false illusory energy, to be removed, so as to let what is right and good, develop and flourish.

Parents, love and cherish your children and honor their unique spiritual personalities. Don’t hand then over to anyone else while they are young- they need you and all the love, hugs, smiles and encouragement you can give them. Children thrive on such loving exchanges and I saw this happen with my son. The first 4 years of his life, where I took care of him, loved him and encouraged him, he flourished and was a happy, vibrant child.

He had a sense of confidence and he felt safe. This is what children need as they grow up. Then when they get to the age where they can make inquiries as to the nature of the soul and one’s connection with the Supreme Lord, they will pursue this on their own, driven by their own spiritual desires.

We have to be careful that no further harm takes place, and somehow the movement will either falter or survive from the ill after-effects of the ugly hidden secrets, that emerged and revealed to the entire world, that something wasn’t right with the thinking and strategies of the movement’s Gurukulis and management.

Part of my nature is to be very blunt when things need to be stated. I usually am fairly tolerant but when my sense of justice gets riled, I will speak up. Part of my work now as mother to Nrsimha is to do whatever I can to correct past injustices to our children. As a social worker, part of my work is to protect children from abuse and neglect and I think part of that drive to do this work is based on the experience my son had while in the ashrama. I had a memorial service for him on April 7th in the town I live in and where my children and I have gone to school.

We had Nrsimha’s picture with his daughter put up in the front of the small church, and his brother Prahlad had brought a Deity garland all the way from WV, which I draped around his picture. It was a very moving service with the minister stating that God has many names and even though he may not understand all of them, ultimately they all point to one Supreme Lord, and I totally agree with him. The eulogy consisted of a letter I wrote entitled, “An Open Letter from a Mother to her Oldest Son” and then was followed by several prayers Nrsimha had favored and shared with me.

One was a prayer by Black Elk (Nrsimha’s great-great-great paternal grandmother is native American) and the other was a Sanskrit proverb he found one time at a NA meeting. A reading of a Bhagavad-Gita verse “For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor having once been” and purport by Srila Prabhapada followed this.

The final part of the memorial was the playing of George Harrison’s song “My Sweet Lord” because George was such an effective musician for introducing the western world to the love he had for chanting Hare Krsna.

There will also be a Gurukuli reunion and wedding (Bhimasena dasa) taking place in NV this July 9 and 10. On the 11th a Memorial service for Nrsimha dasa will take place, with some of his ashes being distributed in NV, followed by a feast in his honor. All Gurukulis, good teachers (they weren’t all corrupt) and parents who knew Nrsimha are welcome to come.

The NV devotees have welcomed me and my family to come to NV and they will host the memorial. Some of Nrsimha’s ashes are being distributed here in Maine where I live. There is a beautiful white-water fall nearby where people like to hike to, to feel the power and beauty of nature.

It is here that I will release the urn of ashes I have here with me. In addition, I would want some of his ashes distributed in one of the holy rivers in India. I don’t think I will be taking that journey, but I would like to ask Radhanatha Swami if he could do it for me when he makes his return to India in the fulltime.

If any of you would like to read my letter to my son that was read at his memorial here in Fort Kent, I can either post it or send it via email. I find that writing some of my inner thoughts is helping me to recover from the sense of loss I am experiencing by the death of my son. Thank you for listening to me and what I know and need to say.

AGTSP, Daksi dd

October 9, 2006 - Posted by chaitanyamangala | Gurukula, Gurukuli, Hare Krishna, ISKCON, New Vrindaban | | 2 Comments

Thank you for that.

I am the mother of four krsna kids so to speak. I joined in the early eighties so have been spared the torture of the peer pressures that resulted in giving up children to unqualified people. I have my resentments as is natural after 24 years but i know that there is something good in the texts, it is just the transmission is sometimes tainted by the , I hate to say it, unworthy.

I am hoping my children get a balanced view of community life and learn how to negotiate the complexities of contradiction by expecting them instead of experiencing stunned surprise. It is after all the reformation ground for the spirit soul and we are going to blow it here and there.

I read a novel recently about slavery in America. There is some real pain there if ever there was any. It is by Toni Morison, Beloved. Somehow in illustrating the human torture that is existence, our existence she is able to relieve and dissipate resentment.

I don’t know how she does it but the healing in the book is so profound as to push me to suggest you read it even if it isn’t technically scripture. I know Guru lies in many places so I choose to take from where I can. I am studying and was compelled to read it but I do not regret it.

I want to be relieved of the constant cycle of anger and resentment. We can’t really go on otherwise. We become as bad as the ones we consider bad and then what. Bit like a classroom of kids. Who struck first and where does it end? I was abused as a child too but in all fairness the statistics tell us an awful lot were and are. The horror is in the lie we told the children. All would be well in our house. I guess that is the real abuse. Pretending we were and are more than we really are.

Thanking you , gopapaptni. [ Aus]

Comment by gopapatni | September 15, 2007

I only just now read your whole letter. I am truly sorry for your loss and i hope you can find a way to ease or find whatever it is that makes a day more bearable in the living. I hope it is ok for you and your son. Words fail me but thank you for being so willing to share.

gopa. Comment by gopapatni | September 15, 2007

[Kulapavana]

This is heart-breaking stuff..

 

I see some devotee kids in real trouble even in our small community. I do not think that we have a worse record in this area than the society in general, but our kids are not at all better off.

[Amlesh]

No wonder why it is so, if parents couldn't understand the Bhagvata Doctrine what can they transmit to Kids. Infact, things get complicated.

 

Krishna Consciousness has become more like a Culture or set of rules to be followed rather than trying to unlock its mystery.

 

Anyways, it is the third option given by Krishna and it's better to follow that than some other process.

 

Very rarely someone tries to see the first 2 options.

[realist]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Suchandra

Good points, learning how to walk. Could be added, for those who know how to walk, learn to follow.

You might call learning to follow = learning to walk, but when Krishna sends His representative to give us knowledge it should be clear that Krishna's representative explains things in such a way that nobody has to stumble - it is clearly explained for all classes of sincere men to understand.

Interesting point below, bhakti starts when your heart is tuned to follow. Our mind says, no, this has to be changed. Just like Indians, they are so ashamed about the violence in Bhagavad-gita, they want it changed - it is all allegory - "there was no battlefield".

Without being able to actually follow the acarya and accept his words as they are, there is no question of bhakti.

Or like HG Sriman Amara prabhu is suggesting, "Prabhupada's books are a disgrace".

http://www.chakra.org/discussions/BMMay05_08.html

"So bhaktyā anuvṛtyā. Anuvṛtyā means following. Not that I have become more than my guru, I can invent something. No. Bhakti means, sādhu-mārgānugamanam.

You have to follow the sādhu, the ācārya. That is bhakti. Bhakti does not means that I am so learned I can manufacture something. That is rascal. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ.

That is bhakti.

You have to become servant of the servant of the servant of the servant. Not that at a point you become suddenly very learned scholar, and you do not remain a servant, but you want to become a master, to dictate the guru.

That is rascal.

That will not help us. Here it is said, bhaktyānuvṛtyā. Bhaktyā, bhaktyā, bhakti means sevā. Bhaja sevayā. When bhakti, bhajata sukti. Bhaja means

sevayā. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. So we have to understand this bhakti-yoga by bhaktyānuvṛtyā, not otherwise.

Not that I am very learned scholar, I can give a different interpretation and… No, that is not bhakti. Bhaktyānuvṛtyā vitṛṣṇayā dvandva-titikṣayā ca."

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.5.14

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Vṛndāvana, November 2, 1976

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Very inspiring prabhu

 

 

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[realist]

The Passing of a Vaishnava Family Member of the Gurukuli Community

BY: CHAITANYA MANGALA DASA

Jun 27, USA — It is with much sadness that I inform you of the passing of Gokulananda dasa (Kevin Michael Simmons), a member of the Gurukuli Community. On Friday, June 20th, 2008 Gokulananda died by suicide in Marina Del Rey, California, USA. The news of his departure was conveyed to his family and Gurukuli peers by his long-time girlfriend, Michelle LeMay.

There will be a memorial service to celebrate and honor his life on Sunday, June 29th at Michelle's place in Marina Del Rey. Gokulananda was 36 years old. He attended gurukula in New Vrindaban, WV and Mayapura, India. He had been living in Los Angeles for the past 5 1/2 years.

His mother is Mahidhara dasi, his sister Jayanti dasi and brother Nanda Kishore dasa.

Please join in remembering Gokulananda's bright spirit, wishing condolences to his family and friends, and offering him sincere prayers of peace and love on his journey.

 

The Passing of a Vaishnava Family Member

[Bishadi]

 

Parents, love and cherish your children and honor their unique spiritual personalities. Don’t hand then over to anyone else while they are young- they need you and all the love, hugs, smiles and encouragement you can give them. Children thrive on such loving exchanges and I saw this happen with my son. The first 4 years of his life, where I took care of him, loved him and encouraged him, he flourished and was a happy, vibrant child.

He had a sense of confidence and he felt safe. This is what children need as they grow up. Then when they get to the age where they can make inquiries as to the nature of the soul and one’s connection with the Supreme Lord, they will pursue this on their own, driven by their own spiritual desires.

We have to be careful that no further harm takes place, and somehow the movement will either falter or survive from the ill after-effects of the ugly hidden secrets, that emerged and revealed to the entire world, that something wasn’t right with the thinking and strategies of the movement’s ........... and management.

 

What a thread.

 

This is happening all over the world; not just one sect!