Why Vaishnava & Vaishnav Gods Targeted ?

[Kulapavana]

 

Did he not fall down?

 

Yes, he no longer represents the sampradaya, but at the time of my diksa he was a proper guru in our line. Diksa is done only once. All the re-initiations going on in our society are not necessary as per Hari-bhakti-vilasa.

[AncientMariner]

 

It is so easy to get, if you shed your sentiments and look at it objectively and dispassionately for just a minute.

 

Just like Prabhupada was not qualified to assign varnas to his disciples, neither was he qualified to know who was an avatar and who was not. Btw, I doubt even theist will agree with you that christianity is a form of Vaishnavism. At least, I do not recall such explicit statement from him.

 

 

 

We will take you as an example. In your next life you may be born somewhere where you have no relation to Jesus and would care less about his authenticity or nature. After that you will live several more lives before getting to Vrindavana and meeting Prabhupada. But Prabhupada will not be Prabhupada there!

 

The thing is, when you get there after all these countless lives, why will you be fixated on people you knew in this life? You are not going to remember any of this. Even if you do, they are people you related to, in just one life out of billions. The mistake you are making is you are taking your physical identity from one arbitrary life out of countless lives and imagining it to be your permanent identity.

 

By now, Prabhupada would have taken birth somewhere and will have no memory of his past life. The same will happen to everyone.

 

Cheers

 

 

Prabhupada said Christianity is a crude form of Vaisnavism if I remember right and I can see what he was saying. Obviously Christianity is not full out Vaisnavism because it doesn't mention Krishna as God but Christianity does worship God as the father and Krishna is viewed as the father of all living entities. My understanding of Krishna Consciousness is that you end up not taking on physical bodies anymore and you get a body like Krishnas that is full of knowledge and bliss. The story of Jesus, if true, would be no less divine in that case and if I was full of knowledge and bliss I would still be able to appreciate the story of Jesus.

 

 

Cheers back to you!

[matarisvan]

 

My understanding of Krishna Consciousness is that you end up not taking on physical bodies anymore and you get a body like Krishnas that is full of knowledge and bliss.

 

Are you saying you believe you will not have any more human births after this because you follow Prabhupada's teachings?

 

I do not know any Guru who offers such a guarantee to his disciples. The Gita says it takes many many births for a jiva to get out the cycle of birth and death. It says such a soul is rare.

 

can you please explain why you think you will not be born again?

[AncientMariner]

 

Are you saying you believe you will not have any more human births after this because you follow Prabhupada's teachings?

 

I do not know any Guru who offers such a guarantee to his disciples. The Gita says it takes many many births for a jiva to get out the cycle of birth and death. It says such a soul is rare.

 

can you please explain why you think you will not be born again?

 

 

I didn't claim I would not be born again I was explaining that my understanding of Krishna Consciousness is if you chant Hare Krishna at the time of death you take on a spiritual body like Krishnas that is full of knowledge and bliss and you never have to return to the material world. If I am not mistaken that is what is presented in Prabhupadas books.

[matarisvan]

 

I didn't claim I would not be born again I was explaining that my understanding of Krishna Consciousness is if you chant Hare Krishna at the time of death you take on a spiritual body like Krishnas that is full of knowledge and bliss and you never have to return to the material world. If I am not mistaken that is what is presented in Prabhupadas books.

 

No other vaishnava tradition makes it so easy. This sounds like christianity to me. This is another point difference between Gaudiya Vaishnavism and other branches of Vaishnavism.

 

We understand it is hard to reach his lotus feet and it takes several lives of sadhana to get there. Until then, we will be born again and again in this world. Remembering Narayana at the time of death will take me closer the goal by putting me in a birth with favorable circumstances for my sadhana. But it will be a material birth on this planet.

 

If chanting the HK mantra at death is enough then why did prabhupada ask people to chant 16 rounds daily and follow a number of rules? What happens to the Hare Krishna who does not know that he is going to die in the next few seconds or minutes and does not chant? like someone who is killed in a head on collision or dies in sleep.

[AncientMariner]

 

No other vaishnava tradition makes it so easy. This sounds like christianity to me. This is another point difference between Gaudiya Vaishnavism and other branches of Vaishnavism.

 

We understand it is hard to reach his lotus feet and it takes several lives of sadhana to get there. Until then, we will be born again and again in this world. Remembering Narayana at the time of death will take me closer the goal by putting me in a birth with favorable circumstances for my sadhana. But it will be a material birth on this planet.

 

Yeah that is partially why I have come to the conclusion that Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Gaudiya Vaisnavism is a controversial and somewhat revolutionary branch of Hinduism. I remember reading in Prabhuapdas books something to the effect that traditional hindus often view Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Hare Krishnas as mere sentimentalists.

[matarisvan]

 

Yeah that is partially why I have come to the conclusion that Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Gaudiya Vaisnavism is a controversial and somewhat revolutionary branch of Hinduism. I remember reading in Prabhuapdas books something to the effect that traditional hindus often view Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Hare Krishnas as mere sentimentalists.

 

To be fair you should not concern yourself with the opinions of others. If you believe it is that easy then you should follow it. But I can tell you for sure that no other tradition makes it so easy. It is not a one lifetime project like in christianity.

[Malati dasi]

Just to give a better picture of the history of (Gaudiya) Vaishnavism in the West. Premananda Bharati Baba came to the US in 1904 - 1915 to spread Chaitanya Vaishnavism and Dr. Mahanambrata Bramachari represented Vaishnavims in the 2nd Parliament of Religion in Chicago in 1933. I think there's a German devotee who took initiation in the 1950s (not sure of the year) and tried to introduce it in Europe. These sadhus were of the traditional line (too make the term simple).

 

Of course Bhativedanta Swami made it in the West on a bigger scale.

 

Radhe Radhe

[AncientMariner]

 

To be fair you should not concern yourself with the opinions of others. If you believe it is that easy then you should follow it. But I can tell you for sure that no other tradition makes it so easy. It is not a one lifetime project like in christianity.

 

 

To be honest I have absolutely no idea what happens when I die but I figure if I can manage to get through this life without degrading my consciousness to the point where I forget to chant Hare Krishna I might as well give it a try if I can remember to do it. Not much to lose at that point.

[Beggar]

Srila Prabhupada himself spoke highly of Srila Sridhara Maharaja:

 

...who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my

siksa

guru . If you are serious about the advancement of your spiritual life, I advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja and I will feel that you are safe.You can also make arrangements for your other godbrothers to go there in the future. (SP Ltr. Hrsikesa, January 1, 1969)

 

 

What Sripada Sridhara Maharaja has directed, I take it on my head. It is appropriate that I should accept his direction. (SP Ltr. Govinda Mj, 12-9-69)

 

 

What Govinda Maharaja has said is true. I consider his guru as my siksa guru . (SP,

ISKCON

Mayapur Candrodaya Mandira opening ceremony 1974)

 

 

Those who are intelligent, they are making something, Sridhara Maharaja and others. (SP Conversation, Allahabad, January 13, 1977)

One of my important godbrothers [sridhara Maharaja] says. He's sincere. He says, "The prediction of

Caitanya-caritamrta, prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama

So you have done it." (SP LA Morning Walk, December 11, 1973 & SP Ltr. Bon Maharaja, July 7, 1975)

 

 

Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gaudiya Matha I wanted to organize another organization making Sridhara Maharaja as the head. (SP Conversation, March 17, 1973)

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

Just to give a better picture of the history of (Gaudiya) Vaishnavism in the West. Premananda Bharati Baba came to the US in 1904 - 1915 to spread Chaitanya Vaishnavism and Dr. Mahanambrata Bramachari represented Vaishnavims in the 2nd Parliament of Religion in Chicago in 1933. I think there's a German devotee who took initiation in the 1950s (not sure of the year) and tried to introduce it in Europe. These sadhus were of the traditional line (too make the term simple).

 

 

The German devotee you are talking about was probably Sadananda Swami or Baron Koeth. They were initiated by Bon Maharaja in the late 1930's, one of the more prominent disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Bon Maharaja and Bhakti Saranga Maharaja went to Europe on separate occasions to preach to Gaudiya Matha mission. Bhakti Saranga brought a disciple from England, an Australian gentelman, Mr. Burchette, whom he later initiated in India.

 

Of course all that pales in comparison with Srila Prabhupada's achievements in the West.

[cbrahma]

Vaisnavism doesn't require rejecting Christianity.

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To Love God

by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Reprinted from a Journal of Tajpur Dated Friday, 25th August, 1871.

 

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Bhaktivinód Thákur

(1838-1914)

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>It was Christ Jesus who first said "Love God with all thy heart, with all thy mind, with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and love man as thy brother." This is an absolute truth indeed; but different men put different interpretations to this noble expression. The expressions of all great men are nice but somewhat mysterious. When understood they bring the truth nearest to the heart otherwise they remain mere letters that ‘kill'. The reason of the mystery is that men, advanced in their approach to the Deity, are in the habit of receiving revelations which are but mysteries to those that are behind them. The stages of progress are very much the same as the circles of spiritualism which, though not true themselves, explain a great deal about the gradual development of the soul.

We have understood some spiritualists to maintain that matter when sublimated converts itself to spirit. This theory is indeed against any inward conviction. Matter is matter, and spirit is spirit; one of them cannot form the other. Spirit is certainly of a superior existence; though we cannot fully understand in our present state of material imprisonment, what relation Spirit does exactly bear to matter, space and time.

Metaphysics apart, we decide that the human soul rises higher and higher and can understand things of which we have no idea at present. Subject to this important rule, Christ Jesus of Nazareth received and uttered the words quoted above. To readers who are a little above the scale of ordinary men, these expressions of Jesus teach that man should love God with all his heart (meaning the affections of the heart perceivable in all children as opposed to hate), with all his mind, (meaning the intellect which knows as opposed to ignorance of good things), with all his soul (meaning that principle of the human constitution which worships the Almighty and feels its own immortality), and with all his strength (meaning all active work). To the inspired, however, more things and better and more sublime meanings appear beneath these holy words of the inspired Jesus. He teaches man to love God and not to know, infer, hate, or think of God. He tells us that man in his absolute state is not the intellect or the body but is the pure soul itself.

The essence of the soul is wisdom and its action is love absolute. The absolute condition of man is his absolute relation to the Deity in pure love. Love then alone is the religion of the soul and consequently of the whole man. The pupil asks here, "What have I to do with the heart? — My heart loves ‘to see the sun smile, to eat the sweetest dish and to see a dance.' Jesus profoundly replies "Yes, you must love God with all thy heart, your heart now runs to things other than God, but you must, as you train a bad horse, make your feelings run to the loving God." This is one of the four principles of worship or what they call in Vaisnava literature, santa rasa.

Then the pupil says, "My Lord, the intellect takes me elsewhere from God, that is, it wants to take me to positivism; please instruct me what am I to do?Yes," replies Jesus, "You must love God with all your mind, that is, when you perceive, conceive, remember, imagine and reason, you must not allow yourself to be a dry thinker but must love. Love alone can soften the dryness of the intellect, you must develop the intellect on all good and holy things by means of love of truth, spiritual beauty and harmony." This is the second phase of Vaisnava development which passes by the name dasya rasa.

The pupil then inquires whether development of the affections and the intellect is quite enough for him. Then says the Lord "You must love God with thy soul also, that is, you must perceive yourself in spiritual communication with the Deity and receive holy revelations in your sublimest hours of worship." This is called the sakhya rasa of the Vaisnavas — the soul approaching the Deity in holy and fearless service. The disciple apprehends that he will be lost in such a position and will be unable to act. Then the Saviour tells him these words, "You must love God with all thy strength or will — you are wrong in concluding that you will loose your active existence — you will get it the more. Work for God and work to God, proceeding from no interested views but from a holy free will (which is alone the strength of man) and identifying with pure love, it will fully engross your attention." This is a description of bhakti in general. Then Jesus proceeds to tell us, "You must love man as thy brother." From this is inferred the fourth phase of love which is a feeling that all men are brothers and God is their common Father. This is vatsalya rasa in its first stage of development.

Bhakti (love) is thus perceived in the very first development of man in the shape of heart, then in the shape of mind, then in the shape of soul and lastly in the shape of will. These shapes do not destroy each other but beautifully harmonize themselves into a pure construction of what we call the spiritual man or the ekanta of Vaisnava literature. But there is another more sublime truth behind this fact which is revealed to a few that are prepared for it. We mean the spiritual conversion of the soul into a woman. It is in that sublime and lofty state in which the soul can taste the sweetness of an indissoluble marriage with God of Love. The fifth or the highest stage of Vaisnava development is this, which we call madhurya rasa, and on this alone the most beautiful portion of the Vaisnava literature so ably expatiates. This phase of human life, mysterious as it is, is not attainable by all, nay, we should say, by any but "God's own". It is so very beyond the reach of common men that the rationalists and even the ordinary theists cannot understand it. Nay, they go so far as to sneer at it as something unnatural. Oh God! Reveal Thy most valuable truths to all so that "Your own" may not be numbered with the fanatics and the crazed and that the whole of mankind may be admitted as "Your own."

 

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[Beggar]

In 1977 Srila Prabhupada established the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust in his final days and that Srila Prabhupada named two of his godbrothers as Trustees, Srila Madhusudhana Maharaja and Srila Madhava Maharaja. The Director's of the Trust consisted of both disciples and godbrothers. After the document establishing the Trust was completed Srila Prabhupada read the list of names of the Trustees to the devotees along with the plans for restoring some of the Gaudiya Matha buildings in need of repair. Does this sound like Srila Prabhupada wanted further non-cooperation with his godbrothers and for us to continue to criticize them? He ordered that money from ISKCON be used to remodel Gaudiya Matha buildings. After Srila Prabhupada read the list of names this conversation [below] occurred:

• Srila Prabhupada: How do you think the idea?
  Jayapataka Maharaja: All of your ideas, Srila Prabhupada, are perfect. I am not someone to offer opinion. But if you ask, I think that actually, especially the yoga-pitha, natha-mandira, that's a very dynamic idea, and in general it must do good.
  Srila Prabhupada: We want cooperation.
  Tamala Krsna Maharaja: No more non-cooperation.

 

[matarisvan]

 

Vaisnavism doesn't require rejecting Christianity.

 

You mean Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Other Vaishnava branches reject christianity as mlechcha dharma.

 

I will remind you again that you are on a spritual forum and not a gaudiya vaishnava forum. Vaishnava does not default to Gaudiya Vaishnava here.

[Beggar]

 

Vaisnavism doesn't require rejecting Christianity.

 

But you must realize that when you are in transcendental Vrndavana with Krsna and His entourage, you will not know of Jesus Christ, nor will you even know that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is called jnana sunya bhakti and this is the level of the devotees of both Goloka and Gokula.

Interestingly Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur says that some devotees are with Krsna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's pastimes simultaneously.

[AncientMariner]

 

But you must realize that when you are in transcendental Vrndavana with Krsna and His entourage, you will not know of Jesus Christ, nor will you even know that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is called jnana sunya bhakti and this is the level of the devotees of both Goloka and Gokula.

Interestingly Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur says that some devotees are with Krsna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's pastimes simultaneously.

 

 

All I wanna know is will the God with elephant ears be there?

[Vedesu]

 

Srila Prabhupada himself spoke highly of Srila Sridhara Maharaja:

 

...who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my

siksa

guru . If you are serious about the advancement of your spiritual life, I advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja and I will feel that you are safe.You can also make arrangements for your other godbrothers to go there in the future. (SP Ltr. Hrsikesa, January 1, 1969)

 

 

What Sripada Sridhara Maharaja has directed, I take it on my head. It is appropriate that I should accept his direction. (SP Ltr. Govinda Mj, 12-9-69)

 

 

What Govinda Maharaja has said is true. I consider his guru as my siksa guru . (SP,

ISKCON

Mayapur Candrodaya Mandira opening ceremony 1974)

 

 

Those who are intelligent, they are making something, Sridhara Maharaja and others. (SP Conversation, Allahabad, January 13, 1977)

One of my important godbrothers [sridhara Maharaja] says. He's sincere. He says, "The prediction of

Caitanya-caritamrta, prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama

So you have done it." (SP LA Morning Walk, December 11, 1973 & SP Ltr. Bon Maharaja, July 7, 1975)

 

 

Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gaudiya Matha I wanted to organize another organization making Sridhara Maharaja as the head. (SP Conversation, March 17, 1973)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also this:

 

 

Even amongst our God-brothers we have misunderstanding but none of us is astray from the service of Krishna. My Guru Maharaja ordered us to execute his mission combinedly. Unfortunately we are now separated. But none of us have stopped preaching Krishna Consciousness. Even if there was misunderstanding amongst the God-brothers of my Guru Maharaja none of them deviated from the transcendental loving service of Krishna. The idea is that provocation and misunderstanding may remain between one man and another. But our staunch faith in Krishna Consciousness may not allow any material disruption. Please therefore try to be sympathetic with any person even if they differ. The only qualification we have to scrutinize is if one is acting in Krishna Consciousness as far as one is able to do it. This personal grudge is not inhuman and as I have told many times, that individualism is the cause of personal misunderstanding. When such individualism is employed in the center of Krishna there is no harm even if there is personal misunderstanding. Personal misunderstanding exists even in the higher levels. There is competition of loving Krishna even in the party of Srimati Radharani. Letter to: Brahmananda : 67-11-18 Calcutta

 

 

Among Vaisnavas there may be some difference of opinion due to everyone's personal identity, but despite all personal differences, the cult of Krsna consciousness must go on. We can see that under the instructions of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja began preaching the Krsna consciousness movement in an organized way within the past hundred years. The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja are all Godbrothers, and although there are some differences of opinion, and although we are not acting conjointly, every one of us is spreading this Krsna consciousness movement according to his own capacity and producing many disciples to spread it all over the world. Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 31

 

 

one should respect one's spiritual master's Godbrothers as one respects one's spiritual master. Adi-lila: Chapter Five, Text 147

 

Addressing Srila Sridhara Maharaja as "Sridhara" is clearly disrespectful. That would be like a Vaishnava from another sanga or Sampradaya addressing Srila Prabhupada as A.C. or Abhay, or De. Being that there are Vaishavas from numerous sangas contributing here, we need to observe proper Vaishnava etiquette if we wish that our own ideas be accepted by others, IMHO.

[cbrahma]

 

You mean Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Other Vaishnava branches reject christianity as mlechcha dharma.

 

I will remind you again that you are on a spritual forum and not a gaudiya vaishnava forum. Vaishnava does not default to Gaudiya Vaishnava here.

I will accept that.

[cbrahma]

 

Also this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Addressing Srila Sridhara Maharaja as "Sridhara" is clearly disrespectful. That would be like a Vaishnava from another sanga or Sampradaya addressing Srila Prabhupada as A.C. or Abhay, or De. Being that there are Vaishavas from numerous sangas contributing here, we need to observe proper Vaishnava etiquette if we wish that our own ideas be accepted by others, IMHO.

Treating Prabhupada as a 'take-it-or-leave-it' guru is far more disrespectful.

One is a matter of protocol with respect to a material ashrama. The other is a matter of siddhanta. Nice to see Prabhupada being quoted for a change. Showing outward respect is a far cry from embracing the teaching and intimate association which Prabhupada urged his disciples to avoid.

[theist]

Man, I really hate to see this controversy over Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers come up again and again. Krishna may not reveal Himself to all individuals through the same via medium. That is the mistake most Christians make when they say Jesus only. It is bogus interpretation of his teaching. Many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples and followers make the same mistake.

 

A similar mistake is made by disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have taken siksa from one of his Godbrothers and therefore concludes that everyone should also do likewise.

 

If Krishna wants someone to hear from BR Sridhar Maharaja or Srila Prabhupada alone then that is between that soul and Krishna. He may use them both in varying degrees to reveal Himself. Not sayng these are the only two choices BTW.

 

Krishna consciousness is the broadest state of God realization. Why do we always try to constrict it down to fit in our tiny little boxes.

[shvu]

 

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

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You mean Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Other Vaishnava branches reject christianity as mlechcha dharma.

I will remind you again that you are on a spritual forum and not a gaudiya vaishnava forum. Vaishnava does not default to Gaudiya Vaishnava here.

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->I will accept that.

 

 

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If only this simple exchange had happened a month or two earlier! We could all have saved ourselves a lot of sparring.

 

Cheers

[Beggar]

 

Addressing Srila Sridhara Maharaja as "Sridhara" is clearly disrespectful. That would be like a Vaishnava from another sanga or Sampradaya addressing Srila Prabhupada as A.C. or Abhay, or De. Being that there are Vaishavas from numerous sangas contributing here, we need to observe proper Vaishnava etiquette if we wish that our own ideas be accepted by others, IMHO.

According to the Geneva Convention Agreement on War, war prison guards who are enlisted persons (non-officers) are required to salute enemy combatant officers who are their prisoners. They are also required to address them by their rank such as captain, major etc. To not do so is considered to be an act of insubordination and is subject to their military laws of court marshal. During WWII German guards who exhibited insubordination in their treatment of Allied POW officers were sometimes sentenced to execution by firing squad. The German command feared that insubordination to enemy POW officers would be contagious and lead to insubordination to German officers. All this is derived from Middle Age chivalry which in turn comes from the Ksatriya code of behaviour in ancient, Arayan India.

[AncientMariner]

 

If only this simple exchange had happened a month or two earlier! We could all have saved ourselves a lot of sparring.

 

Cheers

 

 

True Dat!

 

 

Cheers back to you!

[Kulapavana]

 

Think about it - a while ago, these devotees would have been unable to even pronounce Lord Krishna's name. But by the grace of Srila Prabhupada, they sing about Him and accept Him. Granted, they have changed Krishna's identity (saying He is different from Vishnu, etc.), and still have sentiments for Jesus, but nonetheless...their sankirtan and acceptance of Vishnu would fetch them more benefits than anything that a traditional Vaishnava like myself would ever get. Since I, for instance, am a traditional Vaishnava, the Lord would expect me to keep up with the sampradaya, and reward me accordingly. But what converts do is a massive change from their original tendencies, so the Lord favors them more.

 

As for Srila Prabhupada, despite his mistakes, let us not forget that he is the acharya for all Westerners. Consider his Gita - I'd say he is not 100% accurate, and may not accept his translations, but however imperfect it is, there is some great bhakti about it that is really infectious. It is this bhakti that makes Srila Prabhupada truly an avatar. Even I have a copy of his Gita and read it sometimes just to taste that bhakti.

 

 

 

Thank you, prabhu, for these words. That is how I see it as well.

[shvu]

 

True Dat!

 

 

Cheers back to you!

 

Anyway, as long as it was fun for all the participants

 

I have a question for you. All these days gone and I was never aware of the Gaudiya position that chanting the Hare Krishna mantra at the time of death is sufficient to end reincarnation (I am not being sarcastic).

 

Can you point me to some material online which explains this in more detail? I am curious to see how a case is made to lead to this conclusion as I am not aware of any other Gita interpretation that makes it possible to be liberated in one lifetime.

 

And also if we have to explore this more, I suggest another thread as this one has outlived its usefulness.

 

Thanks