Why Vaishnava & Vaishnav Gods Targeted ?

[shvu]

 

Sometimes pravacan can cross siddhanta. It does not change the siddhanta.

Such statements about Christ were meant to bridge the cultural gap in order to spread Krsna bhakti.

 

Raises a curious point. Granting that the identity of Jesus as a Vaishnava was not Sidhanta and was instead a pravachana tool to lure Christians, it still remains a baseless claim which would make it false.

 

So is it OK to utter falsities as long as it is part of Pravachana? What is the justification for this position?

 

Cheers

[cbrahma]

 

could equally be said,

or

 

Why not? And there is no living, breathing representative of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya today? Why not? Just because Owls do not see the Sun, does it mean that the Sun does not exist? And what is self effulgent, and what does Caitanya Caritamrta say about this?

With the exception that I had Prabhupada dashana.

[cbrahma]

 

could equally be said,

or

 

Why not? And there is no living, breathing representative of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya today? Why not? Just because Owls do not see the Sun, does it mean that the Sun does not exist? And what is self effulgent, and what does Caitanya Caritamrta say about this?

One cannot decide there is no living representative. That is trying to assert a 'not exists' which barring a logical impossibility is impossible to prove.

However Sridhara and Nararayan's teachings have not had the same effect on me as Prabhupada's.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

One cannot decide there is no living representative. That is trying to assert a 'not exists' which barring a logical impossibility is impossible to prove.

However Sridhara and Nararayan's teachings have not had the same effect on me as Prabhupada's.

Yes, we are all individuals but you can at least follow the Vaisnava sadacara and refer to sannyasis, especially exalted ones with the term, "Maharaja" appended to the end of their name as did Srila Prabhupada.

[cbrahma]

 

Yes, we are all individuals but you can at least follow the Vaisnava sadacara and refer to sannyasis, especially exalted ones with the term, "Maharaja" appended to the end of their name as did Srila Prabhupada.

Isn't that 'blind and cultic'? I've read passages where Prabhupada refers to these 'sanayasis' simply by their last name. Especially in the places where he describes how offensive they were to him and his guru maharaj.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Isn't that 'blind and cultic'?

If you consider the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sadacara to be 'blind and cultic' that is your perogative.

 

I've read passages where Prabhupada refers to these 'sanayasis' simply by their last name. Especially in the places where he describes how offensive they were to him and his guru maharaj.

You obviously have a fertile imagination. If this was true then you would provide evidence, but you cannot.

[cbrahma]

 

If you consider the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sadacara to be 'blind and cultic' that is your perogative.

 

You obviously have a fertile imagination. If this was true then you would provide evidence, but you cannot.

It's obvious where your bias lies. You are more interested in following material religious protocol than the extoling the Truth. You insist on these formalities but it's acceptable to attack Prabhupada's siddhanta. How trite!

 

 

Of course I can provide evidence. I choose not to become embroiled in a perennial controversy in which ample evidence has been provided over and over again. You would look it up if you weren't a guru-worshipper.

[AncientMariner]

 

In Sankrit or English, love God means love God. It's like seva or service, what is the difference? It is not a preaching device it is simply commen sense.

 

 

This is what I don't get about these folks that insist Prabhupada was using a preaching device when refering to Jesus as a saktyavesa avatar and saying Christianity was a form of Vaisnavism. Hypothetically if Prabhupada lures some unsuspecting Christian in with this preaching device and ultimately that Christian makes it to Vrndavana with Prabhupada, is Prabhupada then going to tell him that Jesus was really just some common village idiot and he is nowhere to be found now in the spiritual world and say that he just told the Christian that crap to bridge the gap between their cultures?

[bija]

The way I feel is if as children or young adults we felt glimpses of devotional service (bhakti) in prayer to Jesus....then why reject those feelings now?

 

Bhakti is bhakti...same in essence. Ofcourse bhakti grows and grows and grows penetrating the material covering and onward...

 

Integrating our past spiritual feelings into our present experience brings a sense of gratitude.

 

Hey jesus...I owe you one ol' mate! Thx for your life of service and love...

 

*even if jesus is not the internal meditation now, as in my personal experience.

 

So I dont think Prabhupada would tell the devotee that Jesus is something less, but would allow space for his disciples love of Sri Gaura-Krsna to blossom on deeper levels. The bhakti creeper slowly growing and growing...integration of life's journey is healthy. And that integration is much different than new-age eclectic universalism (or saying christianity and gaudiya vaisnavism is the same thing).

[AncientMariner]

 

The way I feel is if as children or young adults we felt glimpses of devotional service (bhakti) in prayer to Jesus....then why reject those feelings now?

 

Bhakti is bhakti...same in essence. Ofcourse bhakti grows and grows and grows penetrating the material covering and onward...

 

Integrating our past spiritual feelings into our present experience brings a sense of gratitude.

 

Hey jesus...I owe you one ol' mate! Thx for your life of service and love...

 

 

Exactly. I just don't get why some Hare Krishnas think when you fully become Hinduized that means you undergo some sort of metamorphosis and shed whatever affection you may have had for Jesus. Not only this it seems some Hare Krishnas think that unless you do shed your affection for Jesus you are not capable of appreciating Krsna Consciousness.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

You would look it up if you weren't a guru-worshipper.

That's a praise disguised as a criticism:

(1)

sri-guru-carana-padma, kevala-bhakati-sadma,

bando mui savadhana mate

jahara prasade bhai, e bhava toriya jai,

krsna-prapti hoy jaha ha'te

(2)

guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya,

ar na koriho mane asa

sri-guru-carane-rati, ei se uttama-gati,

je prasade pure sarva asa

(3)

cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei

divya-jnan hrde prokasito

prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate,

vede gay jahara carito

(4)

sri-guru karuna-sindhu, adhama janara bandhu

lokanath lokera jivana

(srila prabhupada lokera jivana!)

ha ha prabhu kora doya, deho more pada chaya

ebe jasa ghusuk tribhuvana

(prabhupada patita pavana!)

(1) The lotus feet of the spiritual master are the abode of pure devotional service. I bow down to those lotus feet with great care and attention. My dear brother (my dear mind)! It is through the grace of the spiritual master that we cross over this material existence and obtain Krsna.

(2) Make the teachings from the lotus mouth of the spiritual master one with your heart, and do not desire anything else. Attachment to the lotus feet of the spiritual master is the best means of spiritual advancement. By his mercy all desires for spiritual perfection are fulfilled.

(3) He who has given me the gift of transcendental vision is my lord, birth after birth. By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed within the heart, bestowing prema-bhakti and destroying ignorance. The Vedic scriptures sing of his character.

(4) O spiritual master, ocean of mercy, and friend of the fallen souls, you are the teacher of everyone and the life of all people. O master! Be merciful unto me, and give me the shade of your lotus feet. May your glories now be proclaimed throughout the three worlds.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

It's obvious where your bias lies. You are more interested in following material religious protocol than the extoling the Truth. You insist on these formalities but it's acceptable to attack Prabhupada's siddhanta. How trite!

 

 

Of course I can provide evidence. I choose not to become embroiled in a perennial controversy in which ample evidence has been provided over and over again. You would look it up if you weren't a guru-worshipper.

Here is the most critical thing that Srila Prabhupada ever wrote about Srila Sridhar Maharaja:

 

"So Sridhara

Maharaja

and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one

acarya

and later it proved a failure."

 

(Letter to Rupunuga, 28/4/74)

 

 

I rest my case, Srila Prabhupada always referred to sannyasis as "Maharaja". Are you too proud to ever admit that you are sometimes wrong about certain facts? I hope not. Let's see. (Don't claim that I cannot prove "always". You know what I mean)

 

[AncientMariner]

Has cbrahma ignored Shakti fan? I heard somewhere that Shakti fan and beggar are the same person so I assume cbrahma probably ignored both id's?

[gokulkr]

 

gokul,

 

There are atheists in India too just like anywhere else. were you expecting indian atheists to behave differently?

 

The recent arguments about Rama were not about the divine Rama. They were about lack of evidence for the mythological rama which upset the sentiments of some people.

 

Prabhuji,

 

wat is difference between divine rama & mythological rama ? for these so-called modern craps lord rama is mythological character. for theists (ie., to hindus) lord rama is supreme brahman. it just the view differs. theres no diff between divine rama & mythological rama ? people who is bent on to asking evidence on mythological rama, can they prove that they are born from their parents. they cant. everything is based on faith & belief only.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya

[cbrahma]

 

That's a praise disguised as a criticism:

(1)

sri-guru-carana-padma, kevala-bhakati-sadma,

bando mui savadhana mate

jahara prasade bhai, e bhava toriya jai,

krsna-prapti hoy jaha ha'te

(2)

guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya,

ar na koriho mane asa

sri-guru-carane-rati, ei se uttama-gati,

je prasade pure sarva asa

(3)

cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei

divya-jnan hrde prokasito

prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate,

vede gay jahara carito

(4)

sri-guru karuna-sindhu, adhama janara bandhu

lokanath lokera jivana

(srila prabhupada lokera jivana!)

ha ha prabhu kora doya, deho more pada chaya

ebe jasa ghusuk tribhuvana

(prabhupada patita pavana!)

(1) The lotus feet of the spiritual master are the abode of pure devotional service. I bow down to those lotus feet with great care and attention. My dear brother (my dear mind)! It is through the grace of the spiritual master that we cross over this material existence and obtain Krsna.

(2) Make the teachings from the lotus mouth of the spiritual master one with your heart, and do not desire anything else. Attachment to the lotus feet of the spiritual master is the best means of spiritual advancement. By his mercy all desires for spiritual perfection are fulfilled.

(3) He who has given me the gift of transcendental vision is my lord, birth after birth. By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed within the heart, bestowing prema-bhakti and destroying ignorance. The Vedic scriptures sing of his character.

(4) O spiritual master, ocean of mercy, and friend of the fallen souls, you are the teacher of everyone and the life of all people. O master! Be merciful unto me, and give me the shade of your lotus feet. May your glories now be proclaimed throughout the three worlds.

 

The current saw is to justify criticizing Prabhupada is to call those who quote him as authority blind personality cultists. This is coming strangely enough from Prabhupada disciples. You would to, apparently, but heaven forbid we not use the term Maharaja which is a religious designation.

[cbrahma]

 

Here is the most critical thing that Srila Prabhupada ever wrote about Srila Sridhar Maharaja:

"So Sridhara

Maharaja

and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one

acarya

and later it proved a failure."

 

(Letter to Rupunuga, 28/4/74)

 

 

 

 

I rest my case, Srila Prabhupada always referred to sannyasis as "Maharaja". Are you too proud to ever admit that you are sometimes wrong about certain facts? I hope not. Let's see. (Don't claim that I cannot prove "always". You know what I mean)

 

 

One quote doesn't make your case. There are others, but the point is a red herring, since the important thing is to respect the vani of a bona fide guru and not explain away his teaching simply because he goes against a sectarian bias. In the future when I state my cricitisms of the Math gurus I'll be sure to use Maharaja.

[cbrahma]

 

can understand someone getting a little bewildered about our relationship with Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers before his letters and conversations were published, but what excuse does anyone have now? Any of Srila Prabhupada's so-called disciples who still insist on associating with Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers or godnephews after reading the quotes below is obviously not very sincere or very serious about following Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY INTIMATE CONNECTION WITH THEM

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Pradyumna 02/17/68:

"Regarding Bhakti Puri Tirtha Maharaja, they are my God-brothers and should be shown respect. But you should not have any intimate connection with them as they have gone against the orders of my Guru Maharaja." NO POSSIBILITY OF COMPROMISE

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Narayana Maharaja 9/30/69:

"Regarding the 92 section case against the Gaudiya Math, I don't think there is any possibility of compromise. Both the Bhagbazar Party [sridhar Maharaja's group] and Mayapur party [Tirtha Maharaja's group] have unlawfully usurped the missionary institution of Srila Prabhupada, and whenever they will talk of a compromise, it means another complication." MY FOURTH-CLASS GODBROTHERS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Hayagriva 9/14/70:

"Disturbance is caused by ignorance; where there is no ignorance, there is no disturbance. The four Sannyasis may bark, but still the caravan will pass. There is every evidence that they are influenced by some of my fourth-class Godbrothers." THEY WILL BE ENVIOUS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Yamuna 11/18/70:

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math, our position has nothing to do with them. They cannot do anything and if somebody does something, they will be envious. That is the nature of third class men." MY GODBROTHERS GAVE ME ONLY DEPRESSION

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurudasa 8/29/72:

"Do not be depressed. All along my godbrothers gave me only depression, repression, compression--but I continued strong in my duty. So never mind there is some discouragement, continue with your work in full enthusiastic Krishna Consciousness attitude of service." THEY HAVE ALL BECOME SUDRAS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Niranjana 5/21/73:

"Our big, big godbrothers in India, they could not preach Lord Gauranga's name all over India. They are simply inclined to criticize me, that my students call me Prabhupada. They could not do anything practical and tangible. They are satisfied with a temple and a few disciples begging alms for the maintenance of the temple.

"So, we can understand that they have all become sudras. How can they have interest in Bhagavad-gita. Although some of them have been born in brahmana families, but by quality are all sudras." GAUDIYA MATH BOOKS SHOULD NOT BE CIRCULATED IN OUR SOCIETY

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Sukadeva 11/14/73:

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math books being circulated there, who is distributing? Who is sending these books? The Gaudiya Math does not sell our books, why we should sell their books. Who has introduced these books? Let me know. These books should not at all be circulated in our Society. Bhakti Vilas Tirtha is very much antagonistic to our society and he has no clear conception of devotional service. He is contaminated. Anyway, who has introduced these books? You say that you would read only one book if that was all that I had written, so you teach others to do like that. You have very good determination." THIS IS MY INSTRUCTION TO YOU ALL

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Rupanuga 4/28/74:

"In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them." THEIR PROPOSAL FOR COOPERATION IS A MYTH

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to aCUTANANDA 6/8/74:

"You should not write anything to Madhava Maharaja's camp. You may have talked many things with Mangala Niloy but why write him in black and white. The letter must not be sent. Their policy has been all along to suppress me and take credit for himself. Their proposal for cooperation is a myth. They haven't done anything which is cooperative. You know in a recent article they managed to write in such a way that Madhava is doing the world movement and we are his subordinate. From the beginning that has been their mentality. So there is no possibility of cooperation with them. Rather you should avoid strictly meeting with them. They are not after preaching but material gain and reputation and adoration. Otherwise why they are non cooperating with me? So no cooperation is possible. Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us. If anything thing has to be done it is to be talked on the higher level between Madhava Maharaja and myself, but I know his mentality is different and there is no possibility of cooperation." SMASHED...ON ACCOUNT OF PERSONAL AMBITIONS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Karandhara 10/8/74:

"In India some of the important members they have collected huge amounts in the name of the Society and spent it luxuriously. I wanted you all my experienced disciples should manage the whole institution very cleverly without any personal ambition like ordinary materialistic men. The Gaudiya Math institution has become smashed, at least stopped its program of preaching work on account of personal ambitions." MY GODBROTHERS ARE CONCERNED WITH POLITICS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Subala 10/15/74:

"My other godbrothers they are concerned with litigations, politics, and diplomacy, so what is the pracara? As far as I am concerned I have the blessings of my guru maharaj. I do not need anything else. That is how I went to your country, just to try to carry out his order. By his blessings it has come out successful." THEY ARE NOT EVEN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING

 

Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation with a Reporter in Johannesburg 10/16/75:

"Krsna sakti vina nahe krsna name pracara: 'Without Krsna's special power of attorney, nobody can preach His name.' Caitanya-caritamrta. So these rascals, Godbrothers, they are envious that... What he has written? Bon Maharaja. Just see what kind of men they are. They are not even ordinary human being. They are envious of me, and what to speak of make a judgment by estimation? They're envious. Enviousness is immediately disqualification of Vaisnava, immediate. He is not a human being. Paramo nirmatsaranam satam. This Bhagavatam is meant for the person who is completely not envious. That is the beginning. Why a Vaisnava should be envious for anyone? Everyone is working according to his karma. He is trying to rectify him, that 'Be out of these clutches of karma. You come to bhakti.' Why he should be envious? Vancha-kalpatarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eva ca. A Vaisnava should be like ocean of mercy to reclaim the fallen souls. That is Vaisnava's qualification. So Vaisnava should be envious? Just see. So these persons, they are not even human being, what to speak of Vaisnava. Vaisnava cannot be envious. Vaisnava should be: 'Oh, my Lord's name is being broadcast. He is getting, giving so much service to make Krsna known.' That man has appreciated, that 'All these spiritual leaders, they are deriding. You are the only man... You are... It enthuses us, give us more encouragement, that you are keeping intact, love of Krsna.' This is an appreciation. Why he should be envious? He should be, rather, very much enthused that 'This single man is keeping Krsna all over the world.' And everyone is deriding. Even Gandhi is killing Krsna. Dr. Radhakrishnan is killing. Their only business is to kill Krsna. He is also doing that, our, this Bon Maharaja. He never speaks of Krsna. His rascal, that Institute of Indian Philosophy, nobody goes to [pass] urine there. We see practically. And our temple is always filled up, five hundred men. And he is trying for the last forty years. He is simply planning: 'This will be playground. This will be this ground. This will be this ground.' And it is becoming jungle. Still, he is so envious, black snake. So one circular letter should be issued to all our center, that 'Any Bon Maharaja or anyone, his representative, should not be received.' They are envious. Yes. Quoting that. We have got several complaints like that. Satsvarupa also complained. Sometimes our order was cancelled by Bon Maharaja's propaganda." IN THE GAUDIYA MATH POLITICS IS STILL GOING ON

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurukrpa, 9/30/75:

"Why is there this politics? This is not good. If politics come, then the preaching will be stopped. That is the difficulty. As soon as politics come, everything is spoiled. In the Gaudiya Math the politics is still going on. My Guru Maharaja left in 1936, and now it is 1976, so after 40 years the litigation is still going on. Do not come to this." PLEASE AVOID MY GODBROTHERS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Visvakarma, 11/9/75:

"So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of my godbrothers. They should not have any dealings with them nor even correspondence, nor should they give them any of my books or should they purchase any of their books, neither should you visit any of their temples. Please avoid them." THEY ARE DRESSING LIKE VAISNAVA, AND THEY ARE SO ENVIOUS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation in Bombay 1/8/77:

"There are similarly men also. Unnecessarily they are envious, offensive, unnecessary. They cannot tolerate others' opulence. Just like our Godbrothers. They are envious. What I have done to them? I am doing my business, trying to serve my Guru Maharaja. But they are envious because I am so opulent. I have got so much fame, so many influence, so much influence all over the world. Everyone is praising me about... That is ignorance. And this is regrettable because they are posing themselves as Vaisnava. Ordinary man can do that, but they are dressing like Vaisnava, and they are so envious. That Tirtha Maharaja, unnecessarily he was envious, whole life fighting, fighting, fighting in the court and died. Simply planning." THESE PEOPLE ARE ENVIOUS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation in Vrindaban 5/24/77:

"If somebody thinks, 'Oh, here is a snake with jewel. Let me embrace him, no, no, no, it is very ferocious. Even it is jewel there, it is ferocious. Similarly, these people are envious. Although they have become so-called Vaisnava, they are ferocious. They have not acquired the qualification of Vaisnava. Simply vesopidin(?), by dress.[Krishna consciousness] is simple for the simple, but it is very hard for the crooked." (Initiation lecture by Srila Prabhupada, Boston 12/26/69)

 

[Kulapavana]

 

Have you established this? Do you accept his succession? On what improved basis do you think he is bona fide?

 

For the most part, yes, I have verified his claims, and I do accept him as one of the Vaishnava acharyas. But I also recognize other acharyas and learn from them.

[Kulapavana]

cbrahma - the quotes you posted do not make me reject Prabhupada's Godbrothers. His quarrels with them are none of my concern. If anything, they make me question why Prabhupada would take sannyasa from one of his senior Godbrothers only to later issue a blanket condemnation of his guru-bhais by calling them: sudras, not even ordinary men, envious, etc.? Why would he pretend to be respectful when dealing with his Godbrothers in public while privately with his disciples calling them all these nasty names? I suspect that public display of these quotes does not place Prabhupada in a very favourable light for most readers.

[Dark Warrior]

 

This is what I don't get about these folks that insist Prabhupada was using a preaching device when refering to Jesus as a saktyavesa avatar and saying Christianity was a form of Vaisnavism. Hypothetically if Prabhupada lures some unsuspecting Christian in with this preaching device and ultimately that Christian makes it to Vrndavana with Prabhupada, is Prabhupada then going to tell him that Jesus was really just some common village idiot and he is nowhere to be found now in the spiritual world and say that he just told the Christian that crap to bridge the gap between their cultures?

 

Irrespective of whether Srila Prabhupada really believed it or not, I feel that even Hare Krishnas who have not shed their christian sentiments are saved. Simply because, Lord Krishna Himself would not expect a great deal from them.

 

Think about it - a while ago, these devotees would have been unable to even pronounce Lord Krishna's name. But by the grace of Srila Prabhupada, they sing about Him and accept Him. Granted, they have changed Krishna's identity (saying He is different from Vishnu, etc.), and still have sentiments for Jesus, but nonetheless...their sankirtan and acceptance of Vishnu would fetch them more benefits than anything that a traditional Vaishnava like myself would ever get. Since I, for instance, am a traditional Vaishnava, the Lord would expect me to keep up with the sampradaya, and reward me accordingly. But what converts do is a massive change from their original tendencies, so the Lord favors them more.

 

As for Srila Prabhupada, despite his mistakes, let us not forget that he is the acharya for all Westerners. Consider his Gita - I'd say he is not 100% accurate, and may not accept his translations, but however imperfect it is, there is some great bhakti about it that is really infectious. It is this bhakti that makes Srila Prabhupada truly an avatar. Even I have a copy of his Gita and read it sometimes just to taste that bhakti.

 

It is a sad fact that whenever you pick up english translations of Mahabharata or Bhagavatam, the commentator will start by saying, 'This is great stuff, but its mythology, its not real, etc..' It really irritates a bhakta to see such introductions. Srila Prabhupada, however, shows great sincerity and bhakti.

 

Remember the Mahabharata episode. Vidura, in his bhakti, offers Krishna banana peels and throws away the fruit accidentally. Yet, Krishna quietly accepts it and eats the skins!! Similarly, Srila Prabhupada's little mistakes do not change the fact that his books are an immense service to Krishna Himself. Westerners who have scant knowledge, but who have accepted the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada, are eligible for moksha by his grace.

[shvu]

 

This is what I don't get about these folks that insist Prabhupada was using a preaching device when refering to Jesus as a saktyavesa avatar and saying Christianity was a form of Vaisnavism.

 

It is so easy to get, if you shed your sentiments and look at it objectively and dispassionately for just a minute.

 

Just like Prabhupada was not qualified to assign varnas to his disciples, neither was he qualified to know who was an avatar and who was not. Btw, I doubt even theist will agree with you that christianity is a form of Vaishnavism. At least, I do not recall such explicit statement from him.

 

 

Hypothetically if Prabhupada lures some unsuspecting Christian in with this preaching device and ultimately that Christian makes it to Vrndavana with Prabhupada, is Prabhupada then going to tell him that Jesus was really just some common village idiot and he is nowhere to be found now in the spiritual world and say that he just told the Christian that crap to bridge the gap between their cultures?

 

We will take you as an example. In your next life you may be born somewhere where you have no relation to Jesus and would care less about his authenticity or nature. After that you will live several more lives before getting to Vrindavana and meeting Prabhupada. But Prabhupada will not be Prabhupada there!

 

The thing is, when you get there after all these countless lives, why will you be fixated on people you knew in this life? You are not going to remember any of this. Even if you do, they are people you related to, in just one life out of billions. The mistake you are making is you are taking your physical identity from one arbitrary life out of countless lives and imagining it to be your permanent identity.

 

By now, Prabhupada would have taken birth somewhere and will have no memory of his past life. The same will happen to everyone.

 

Cheers

[cbrahma]

 

For the most part, yes, I have verified his claims, and I do accept him as one of the Vaishnava acharyas. But I also recognize other acharyas and learn from them.

As indeed do I. He is my first siksa, however, and oddly enough your diksa. On points of siddhanta, if I see a deviation from another, I reject that other.

[cbrahma]

 

cbrahma - the quotes you posted do not make me reject Prabhupada's Godbrothers. His quarrels with them are none of my concern. If anything, they make me question why Prabhupada would take sannyasa from one of his senior Godbrothers only to later issue a blanket condemnation of his guru-bhais by calling them: sudras, not even ordinary men, envious, etc.? Why would he pretend to be respectful when dealing with his Godbrothers in public while privately with his disciples calling them all these nasty names? I suspect that public display of these quotes does not place Prabhupada in a very favourable light for most readers.

It more likely places his godbrothers in a bad light, especially if his statements are true - and there are other histories and stories which put them in a bad light. Their disciples are always critizing Prabhupada, minimizing his vani as just some other opinion to be taken or left. And of course the overriding concern for me has always been their conspicuous absence when Prabhupada was spreading his mission. It is never a question of 'Prabhupada only'. It is 'Prabhupada mainly'. These traditional Hindu gurus would have no power if they didn't

follow late on the heels of the great Jagat guru. And now they pillage his disciples just as ISKCONites pillage the founder acaryas legacy.

[Kulapavana]

 

As indeed do I. He is my first siksa, however, and oddly enough your diksa. On points of siddhanta, if I see a deviation from another, I reject that other.

 

I received diksa not from Prabhupada but from Harikesa Swami in 1980.

[cbrahma]

 

I received diksa not from Prabhupada but from Harikesa Swami in 1980.

Did he not fall down?