Why Vaishnava & Vaishnav Gods Targeted ?

[AncientMariner]

 

That is an admission of a very rare nature from a Prabhupada disciple.

 

It is always refreshing to see someone not take the "I know Vaishnavism better than Indians/Hindus because I have read a couple of Prabhupada books" attitude.

 

Cheers

 

 

Well I am not actually a Prabhupada disciple but I do appreciate your kind words.I am more of just an admirer of Prabhupada. I have never been initiated into the Hare Krishna mantra or anything and I am still very much on the fruitive platform, far from being any kind of devotee but I have developed a great admiration for Prabhupada and the Vedic literature from reading his books.

[AncientMariner]

 

 

I have heard from some devotees that Prabhupada once said Hitler was also a saktyavesa avatar, because his special DESTRUCTIVE power was given to him by God. You still think every saktyavesa avatar should be worshipped just like Krsna?

 

 

I have never read anywhere that Prabhupada made such a statement. Personally I would not classify Hitler as a Saktyavesa avatara but as a demon who may have prayed to God for some material benefit. I have read in Vedic literature that sometimes God will give demons certain material benefits but then he ultimately defeats them. I would classify Hitler more in this category rather than a specially empowered as good as God representative of Krishna but that is just my speculation.

[Malati dasi]

Ancient Mariner: That's fine but I never could figure out which guru you were talking about in that blog so it would be helpful if you had included the name of the guru so I thought that was your blog and you were the guru. Anyway you seem to think anyone who thinks Jesus was a saktyavesa avatara lacks common sense so apparently you think Prabhupada lacked common sense so at least you have clarified that you don't think Prabhupada is a worthy representative of GVism. I have a lot of admiration for Prabhupada but if he is not your cup of tea then take the opinion of the guru that is your cup of tea but I have read many quotes by Prabhupada in regards to Jesus and his position is that Jesus is a saktyavesa avatara and even Kulapavana who is one of your "ilk" agrees that this is true so apparently you even think Kulapavana lacks common sense even though he is one of your "ilk"? Have a nice day.

 

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The problem with you, Ancient Mariner and your cohorts is that, if anyone gives an objective look (meaning cross-referencing backing from sources to prove a position) on a certain topic, you will come back with your sentimentalism attack that one is disrespecting Srila Prabhupad.

 

I respect Srila Prabhupad highly, I still bow down to his vyasasan when I go to ISKCON temples. Without his preaching bhakti I will not have met US preachers who introduced me to Krishna.

 

However, I will never give up on my god given ability to honestly understand a certain topic by looking at what the shastra says and the understanding of other Vaishnavas. Srila Prabhupad is not the body of GVism.

 

The Q & A from a blog is not from some one who wants to be a guru. He is a very sincere devotee who has spent his entire life studying the works of the 6 Goswamis. He was asked Questions so he had to give Answers to the best of his realizations. What's wrong with that?

 

 

To Kulapavana. Though there are a few topics I don't agree with you. Please know that my gurubhai once said that you were a "Cool(a) guy.

 

 

Radhe Radhe

[cbrahma]

 

The problem with you, Ancient Mariner and your cohorts is that, if anyone gives an objective look (meaning cross-referencing backing from sources to prove a position) on a certain topic, you will come back with your sentimentalism attack that one is disrespecting Srila Prabhupad.

 

 

The problem is that there is always some elusive sastra that is referred to but never quoted. Once a sastra is given from say Brahma Samhita, then the entire sastra is discredited as not being accepted by 'most'. etc...

and so it goes... hopscotching and sidestepping.

[AncientMariner]

 

Ancient Mariner: That's fine but I never could figure out which guru you were talking about in that blog so it would be helpful if you had included the name of the guru so I thought that was your blog and you were the guru. Anyway you seem to think anyone who thinks Jesus was a saktyavesa avatara lacks common sense so apparently you think Prabhupada lacked common sense so at least you have clarified that you don't think Prabhupada is a worthy representative of GVism. I have a lot of admiration for Prabhupada but if he is not your cup of tea then take the opinion of the guru that is your cup of tea but I have read many quotes by Prabhupada in regards to Jesus and his position is that Jesus is a saktyavesa avatara and even Kulapavana who is one of your "ilk" agrees that this is true so apparently you even think Kulapavana lacks common sense even though he is one of your "ilk"? Have a nice day.

 

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The problem with you, Ancient Mariner and your cohorts is that, if anyone gives an objective look (meaning cross-referencing backing from sources to prove a position) on a certain topic, you will come back with your sentimentalism attack that one is disrespecting Srila Prabhupad.

 

I respect Srila Prabhupad highly, I still bow down to his vyasasan when I go to ISKCON temples. Without his preaching bhakti I will not have met US preachers who introduced me to Krishna.

 

However, I will never give up on my god given ability to honestly understand a certain topic by looking at what the shastra says and the understanding of other Vaishnavas. Srila Prabhupad is not the body of GVism.

 

The Q & A from a blog is not from some one who wants to be a guru. He is a very sincere devotee who has spent his entire life studying the works of the 6 Goswamis. He was asked Questions so he had to give Answers to the best of his realizations. What's wrong with that?

 

 

To Kulapavana. Though there are a few topics I don't agree with you. Please know that my gurubhai once said that you were a "Cool(a) guy.

 

 

Radhe Radhe

 

 

Ok fine you think Prabhupada is wrong about Jesus that is your viewpoint but the body of evidence suggests that Prabhupada refered to Jesus as a Saktyavesa avatara and Srila Prabhupada has a lot of respect in Gaudiya Vaisnavism so you should at least take that into account in your objective analysis of things instead of trying to say people are merely being sentimental.

[Malati dasi]

AMariner: Ok fine you think Prabhupada is wrong about Jesus that is your viewpoint but the body of evidence suggests that Prabhupada refered to Jesus as a Saktyavesa avatara and Srila Prabhupada has a lot of respect in Gaudiya Vaisnavism so you should at least take that into account in your objective analysis of things instead of trying to say people are merely being sentimental.

 

Gvism is about shastra, guru, sadhu. They should reconcile.

I have nothing more to say. I have to do japa. Have you done japa yet?

 

Radhe Radhe

[cbrahma]

 

AMariner: Ok fine you think Prabhupada is wrong about Jesus that is your viewpoint but the body of evidence suggests that Prabhupada refered to Jesus as a Saktyavesa avatara and Srila Prabhupada has a lot of respect in Gaudiya Vaisnavism so you should at least take that into account in your objective analysis of things instead of trying to say people are merely being sentimental.

 

Gvism is about shastra, guru, sadhu. They should reconcile.

I have nothing more to say. I have to do japa. Have you done japa yet?

 

Radhe Radhe

Japa after committing Vaisnava apharada. Nice.

[AncientMariner]

 

Gvism is about shastra, guru, sadhu. They should reconcile.

 

Radhe Radhe

 

 

Apparently you cannot find any reconciliation but personally I can because Srimad Bhagavatam says something to the effect that there are innumerable incaranations of Krishna and saktyavesa avatars and not all of them are mentioned in Srimad Bhagavatam. Your guru disagrees that Jesus is one of these and the guru I have studied Prabhupada stated that Jesus was one of these. You are free to choose which guru you follow and his interpretation of things but just to dismiss it all as sentimentalism especially in light of Prabhupada statements is just convenient on your part from my perspective but I wish you the best.

[Malati dasi]

To AMariner & Co.

 

 

I was meant to leave this thread already. But because you mentioned "my guru" I have to clarify.

 

My Guru has nothing to do with my post. My post was practically about the realizations of my Gurubhai, which indirectly of course came from his direct association with our guru.

 

The BIG O! Aparadha! Quite expected from your group. When you reach the dead end as you can not find support from shastra and other sadhus , you invoke the aparadha defence.

 

Radhe Radhe

[cbrahma]

 

To AMariner & Co.

 

 

I was meant to left this thread already. But because you mentioned "my guru" I have to clarify.

 

My Guru has nothing to do with my post. My post was practically about the realizations of my Gurubhai, which indirectly of course came from his direct association with our guru.

 

The BIG O! Aparadha! Quite expected from your group. When you reach the dead end as you can not find support from shastra and other sadhus , you invoke the aparadha defence.

 

Radhe Radhe

There is no 'dead end'. That is wishful thinking.

When you can't produce the proper evidence or do so whimsically that invocation is valid.

[bija]

Shaktyavesa means to be empowered by the Lord's shakti usually for a particular purpose. What we should maybe question is what degree of empowerment was given to Lord Jesus Christ?

 

Look at it this way, if the Lord desires any of us could be empowered by his shakti today or tommorrow. Infact we all do contain some degree of His shakti.

 

Srila Prabhupada and others have called Jesus, Mohammad, and others shaktyavesa for this reason.

 

There are many degrees of shaktyavesa. Full, partial, etc (I cant recall of the top of my head). It would be incorrect according to Gaudiya siddhanta to call Jesus a 'full' shaktyavesa. The christian will disagree strongly with this ofcourse. There is a story in Caitanya Caritamrta purports where Srila Prabhuapada describes Vasudeva datta (a follower of Caitanya) as greater than lord Jesus Christ.

 

If you all like I can contact my teacher and get him to write a detailed explanation of the various levels of shaktyavesa. He made a video on this subject two years ago for me when I asked him about Jesus. The video is offline at the moment due to website construction. If he is not too busy I can get him to write a reply for me again or send me the video file.

[Sarva gattah]

 

If you all like I can contact my teacher and get him to write a detailed explanation of the various levels of shaktyavesa. He made a video on this subject two years ago for me when I asked him about Jesus. The video is offline at the moment due to website construction. If he is not too busy I can get him to write a reply for me again or send me the video file.

 

Who is your teacher?

[bija]

TEXT 163

jīvera pāpa lañā muñi karoṅ naraka bhoga

sakala jīvera, prabhu, ghucāha bhava-roga

SYNONYMS

jīvera—of all conditioned souls; pāpa lañā—accepting the sinful reactions; muñi—I; karoṅ—do; naraka—hellish life; bhoga—experience; sakala jīvera—of all living entities; prabhu—my dear Lord; ghucāha—please finish; bhava-roga—the material disease.

 

TRANSLATION

“My dear Lord, let me suffer perpetually in a hellish condition, accepting all the sinful reactions of all living entities. Please finish their diseased material life.”

 

PURPORT

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura gives the following commentary on this verse. In the Western countries, Christians believe that Lord Jesus Christ, their spiritual master, appeared in order to eradicate all the sins of his disciples. To this end, Lord Jesus Christ appeared and disappeared. Here, however, we find Śrī Vāsudeva Datta Ṭhākura and Śrīla Haridāsa Ṭhākura to be many millions of times more advanced even when compared with Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ relieved only his followers from all sinful reactions, but Vāsudeva Datta is here prepared to accept the sins of everyone in the universe. So the comparative position of Vāsudeva Datta is millions of times better than that of Lord Jesus Christ. A Vaiṣṇava is so liberal that he is prepared to risk everything to rescue the conditioned souls from material existence. Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta Ṭhākura is universal love itself, for he was willing to sacrifice everything and fully engage in the service of the Supreme Lord.

Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta knew very well that Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was the original Personality of Godhead, Transcendence itself, above the material conception of illusion and māyā. Lord Jesus Christ certainly finished the sinful reactions of his followers by his mercy, but that does not mean he completely delivered them from the pangs of material existence. A person may be relieved from sins once, but it is a practice among Christians to confess sins and yet commit them again. By getting freed from sins and again engaging in them, one cannot attain freedom from the pangs of material existence. A diseased person may go to a physician for relief, but after he leaves the hospital he may again be infected due to his unclean habits. Thus material existence continues. Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta wanted to completely relieve the conditioned souls from material existence so that they would no longer have an opportunity to commit sinful acts. This is the significant difference between Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta and Lord Jesus Christ. It is a great offense to receive pardon for sins and then commit the same sins again. Such an offense is more dangerous than the sinful activity itself. Vāsudeva Datta was so liberal that he requested Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to transfer all offensive activity upon him so the conditioned souls would be purified and go back home, back to Godhead. This prayer was certainly without duplicity.

Vāsudeva Datta’s example is unique not only within this world but within the universe. It is beyond the conception of fruitive actors or the speculation of mundane philosophers. Due to being illusioned by the external energy and due to a poor fund of knowledge, people tend to envy one another. Because of this they are entangled in fruitive activity, and they try to escape this fruitive activity by mental speculation. Consequently neither karmīs nor jñānīs are purified. In the words of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Ṭhākura, they are kukarmīs and kujñānīs—bad fruitive actors and bad speculators. The Māyāvādīs and karmīs should therefore turn their attention to the magnanimous Vāsudeva Datta, who wanted to suffer for others in a hellish condition. No one should consider Vāsudeva Datta a mundane philanthropist or welfare worker. Nor was he interested in merging into the Brahman effulgence or in gaining material honor or reputation. He was far, far above philanthropists, philosophers and fruitive actors. He was the most exalted personality to ever show mercy to the conditioned souls. This is not an exaggeration of his transcendental qualities. It is perfectly true. Actually, there cannot be any comparison to Vāsudeva Datta. As the perfect Vaiṣṇava, he was para-duḥkha-duḥkhī, very much aggrieved to see others suffer. The entire world is purified simply by the appearance of such a great devotee. Indeed, by his transcendental presence the whole world is glorified and all conditioned souls are also glorified. As Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura confirms, Vāsudeva Datta is the ideal devotee of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu:

gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṇe, nitya-siddha kari’ māne,

se yāya vrajendrasuta-pāśa

 

 

One who executes Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s mission must be considered eternally liberated. He is a transcendental person and does not belong to this material world. Such a devotee, engaging in the deliverance of the total population, is as magnanimous as Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself.

namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ

[Madhya 19.53]

 

 

Such a personality factually represents Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu because his heart is always filled with compassion for all conditioned souls.

[bija]

TEXT 41

vāsudeva datta——prabhura bhṛtya mahāśaya

sahasra-mukhe yāṅra guṇa kahile nā haya

SYNONYMS

vāsudeva datta—Vāsudeva Datta; prabhura—of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu; bhṛtya—servant; mahāśaya—great personality; sahasra-mukhe—with thousands of mouths; yāṅra—whose; guṇa—qualities; kahile—describing; nā—never; haya—becomes fulfilled.

 

TRANSLATION

Vāsudeva Datta, the nineteenth branch of the Śrī Caitanya tree, was a great personality and a most confidential devotee of the Lord. One could not describe his qualities even with thousands of mouths.

 

PURPORT

Vāsudeva Datta, the brother of Mukunda Datta, was also a resident of Caṭṭagrāma. In the Caitanya-bhāgavata it is said, yāṅra sthāne kṛṣṇa haya āpane vikraya: Vāsudeva Datta was such a powerful devotee that Kṛṣṇa was purchased by him. Vāsudeva Datta stayed at Śrīvāsa Paṇḍita’s house, and in the Caitanya-bhāgavata it is described that Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu was so pleased with Vāsudeva Datta and so affectionate toward him that He used to say, “I am only Vāsudeva Datta’s man. My body is only meant to please Vāsudeva Datta, and he can sell Me anywhere.” Thrice He vowed that this was a fact and that no one should disbelieve these statements. “All My dear devotees,” He said, “I tell you the truth. My body is especially meant for Vāsudeva Datta.” Vāsudeva Datta initiated Śrī Yadunandana Ācārya, the spiritual master of Raghunātha dāsa, who later became Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. This will be found in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya-līlā, Sixth Chapter, verse 161. Vāsudeva Datta spent money very liberally; therefore Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked Śivānanda Sena to become his sarakhela, or secretary, in order to control his extravagant expenses. Vāsudeva Datta was so kind to the living entities that he wanted to take all their sinful reactions so that they might be delivered by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This is described in the Fifteenth Chapter of the Caitanya-caritāmṛta’s Madhya-līlā, verses 159 through 180.

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura writes in his Anubhāṣya, “There is a railway station named Pūrvasthalī near the Navadvīpa railway station, and about one mile away, in a village known as Māmagāchi, which is the birthplace of Vṛndāvana dāsa Ṭhākura, there is presently a temple of Madana-gopāla that was established by Vāsudeva Datta.” The Gauḍīya Maṭha devotees have now taken charge of this temple, and the sevā-pūjā is going on very nicely. Every year all the pilgrims on the navadvīpa-parikrama visit Māmagāchi. Since Śrī Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura inaugurated the navadvīpa-parikrama function, the temple has been very well managed.

[bija]

When I first read these things in 1999 I was taken aback and had no faith in Srila Prabhupada's words here. My love for Jesus was strong.

 

This is why there is so much passion in this subject. I accept Srila Prabhupada's words now, because my love for Lord Caitanya is deeper than my love for Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Why? Because I adore Krishna.

[bija]

Out of all respect Sarva, and love, I will will not reply. I am sure you respect that due to the nature of this forum. I am on the net in lots of places if you want to find out. Its no secret. I hope you can respect my wishes mate.

 

There is only one thing these days that tears my soul to bits. Only one thing. Disrespect to the kind soul who took me in, loved me unconditionally, gave me the HOLY NAMES, and set me free. God help the devotee that chooses to disrespect that gift. Thx.

[Sarva gattah]

 

There is only one thing these days that tears my soul to bits. Only one thing. Disrespect to the kind soul who took me in, loved me unconditionally, gave me the HOLY NAMES, and set me free. God help the devotee that chooses to disrespect that gift. Thx.

 

Yes I see your point, especially this thread, if you mentioned his name someone out there would find fault. If anyone ever talks ill of my teacher or spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada, I just put them on my ignore list.

 

Do you know an old friend of mine, Aniruddha prabhu, Temple President of Melbourne?

[Beggar]

 

Japa after committing Vaisnava apharada. Nice.

 

cbrahma is oppositional to the extreme and actually shows symtoms of a very unbalanced mind. If you say black then he says white and visa versa.

This is how devotees relate in the Vaisnava sadacara or etiquette.

 

 

The Nectar of Instruction 4

 

dadāti pratigṛhṇāti

guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati

bhuńkte bhojayate caiva

ṣaḍ-vidhaḿ prīti-lakṣaṇam

 

Offering gifts in charity, accepting charitable gifts, revealing one's mind in confidence, inquiring confidentially, accepting prasāda and offering prasāda are the six symptoms of love shared by one devotee and another.

 

One may not be fully situated in the madhyama adhikari position but at least we can try to think like one by making some effort.

 

īśvare tad-adhīneṣu

bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca

prema-maitrī-kṛpopekṣā

yaḥ karoti sa madhyamaḥ

 

 

 

"The

madhyama-adhikārī is a devotee who worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the highest object of love, makes friends with the Lord's devotees, is merciful to the ignorant and avoids those who are envious by nature."

If one is ignorant or prone to losing faith quite easily they should take affectionate advice from more faithful devotees. When an inexperienced neophyte (in relative terms) refuses to submit to the conceptions of more experienced devotees it creates waves of turmoil. Malati d.d. is not in Srila Prabhupada's diksa line but seems to have much respect for him. cbrahma oscillates from decrying the basic concept saranagati as a GBC plot to a common brand of Prabhupada-onlyism. What a sham!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bija]

Thank you Sarva. Yes I know Melbourne devotees, I live 3-4 hrs west of Melbourne. But I only have close friendship (relationship) with one devotee, who used to live here. She was a rock! She is a devotee since the 70's and moved into ashram early last year.

 

The deities in Melbourne are some of the finest in Iskcon, and the community there is flourishing and very devotional. Its vaikuntha there, and that vaikuntha also has room for a rat like me;).

 

Well I am off for a jaap walk on the way into town. Hari Hari! Adios!

[AncientMariner]

 

When I first read these things in 1999 I was taken aback and had no faith in Srila Prabhupada's words here. My love for Jesus was strong.

 

This is why there is so much passion in this subject. I accept Srila Prabhupada's words now, because my love for Lord Caitanya is deeper than my love for Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Why? Because I adore Krishna.

 

 

I can appreciate your sentiment in what you have expressed but there is nothing you have written there that makes Jesus seem any less to me. I don't have a problem with Krishna devotees and their greatness but if the story of Jesus is true it is no less divine even though there are great devotees of Krishna.

[AncientMariner]

 

To AMariner & Co.

 

 

I was meant to left this thread already. But because you mentioned "my guru" I have to clarify.

 

My Guru has nothing to do with my post. My post was practically about the realizations of my Gurubhai, which indirectly of course came from his direct association with our guru.

 

The BIG O! Aparadha! Quite expected from your group. When you reach the dead end as you can not find support from shastra and other sadhus , you invoke the aparadha defence.

 

Radhe Radhe

 

Somehow you have developed some sort of Us vs. them mentality that I don't quite understand because you keep saying I am part of a certain "ilk", "group", or "company" but I assure you that there is no group that would accept me in it and I don't recall ever mentioning aparadha. I merely stated that I thought it was convenient that you seem to ignore Prabhupadas words on the subject of Jesus in your objective analysis of whether Jesus is a saktyavesa avatar or not. Anyway it is clear that you do not like me at all so maybe it is best if we just mutually agree to cease communication. Best of luck to you.

[AncientMariner]

 

cbrahma is oppositional to the extreme and actually shows symtoms of a very unbalanced mind. If you say black then he says white and visa versa.

This is how devotees relate in the Vaisnava sadacara or etiquette.

 

 

The Nectar of Instruction 4

 

 

 

 

dadāti pratigṛhṇāti

guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati

bhuńkte bhojayate caiva

ṣaḍ-vidhaḿ prīti-lakṣaṇam

 

 

 

 

 

Offering gifts in charity, accepting charitable gifts, revealing one's mind in confidence, inquiring confidentially, accepting prasāda and offering prasāda are the six symptoms of love shared by one devotee and another.

 

 

 

 

 

 

One may not be fully situated in the madhyama adhikari position but at least we can try to think like one by making some effort.

 

 

 

 

īśvare tad-adhīneṣu

bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca

prema-maitrī-kṛpopekṣā

yaḥ karoti sa madhyamaḥ

 

 

 

 

 

"The

madhyama-adhikārī is a devotee who worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the highest object of love, makes friends with the Lord's devotees, is merciful to the ignorant and avoids those who are envious by nature."

 

 

If one is ignorant or prone to losing faith quite easily they should take affectionate advice from more faithful devotees. When an inexperienced neophyte (in relative terms) refuses to submit to the conceptions of more experienced devotees it creates waves of turmoil. Malati d.d. is not in Srila Prabhupada's diksa line but seems to have much respect for him. cbrahma oscillates from decrying the basic concept saranagati as a GBC plot to a common brand of Prabhupada-onlyism. What a sham!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If there is one thing I have learned about Krishna Conscious people it consists of a bunch of different groups calling each other "shams" and "bogus". That stuff sure is tossed around a lot.

[cbrahma]

 

If there is one thing I have learned about Krishna Conscious people it consists of a bunch of different groups calling each other "shams" and "bogus". That stuff sure is tossed around a lot.

I have put Beggar on ignore, but his particular way of expediting an argument by labelling somebody as belonging to a group or whatever label (Hare Christians) is a fallacy called 'ad hominem' and doesn't deserve acknowledgment.

Noticeably one has defer to these self-professed Vaisnavas who have no problem questioning or criticizing a senior Vaisnava - that is Srila Prabhupada. It is really guru politics at its worst.

[Beggar]

 

If there is one thing I have learned about Krishna Conscious people it consists of a bunch of different groups calling each other "shams" and "bogus". That stuff sure is tossed around a lot.

 

Read closely before you write.

 

cbrahma is oppositional to the extreme and actually shows symtoms of a very unbalanced mind. If you say black then he says white and visa versa.

 

An unbalanced mind is not a sign of being in one camp or another.

 

 

 

 

cbrahma oscillates from decrying the basic concept saranagati as a GBC plot to a common brand of Prabhupada-onlyism. What a sham!

 

Refusing to see the intrinsic value of one of the most core concepts of spiritual life, saranagati or surrender puts one outside of faith in any group of Vaisnavas. Then suddenly there is a show of "loyalty" to Srila Prabhupada. How can we be loyal to that great reprensentative of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Srila Prabhupada without accepting thebasic pillars of the spiritual philosophy that he is presenting?

 

 

 

 

 

[AncientMariner]

 

Read closely before you write.

 

An unbalanced mind is not a sign of being in one camp or another.

 

 

Refusing to see the intrinsic value of one of the most core concepts of spiritual life, saranagati or surrender puts one outside of faith in any group of Vaisnavas. Then suddenly there is a show of "loyalty" to Srila Prabhupada. How can we be loyal to that great reprensentative of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Srila Prabhupada without accepting thebasic pillars of the spiritual philosophy that he is presenting?

 

 

 

 

 

 

The sense I get about Cbrahma is that he is a sincere soul and has great admiration for Srila Prabhupada but apparently he suffered first hand some of the grossness that occured in Iskcon or witnessed it firsthand and maybe that has caused some trauma or something but that is understandable in my opinion. That is merely my speculation but I have enjoyed Cbrahmas contributions to this forum but that doesn't mean I am in his "camp" just because I can see goodness in Cbrahma.