Why Vaishnava & Vaishnav Gods Targeted ?

[Beggar]

 

The sense I get about Cbrahma is that he is a sincere soul and has great admiration for Srila Prabhupada but apparently he suffered first hand some of the grossness that occured in Iskcon or witnessed it firsthand and maybe that has caused some trauma or something but that is understandable in my opinion. That is merely my speculation but I have enjoyed Cbrahmas contributions to this forum but that doesn't mean I am in his "camp" just because I can see goodness in Cbrahma.

Yes, surely there is goodness in cbrahma. But I am still angry that when I tried to throw him the life raft of the conceptions of Srila Bhakti Rasaka Sridhar Maharaja he rejected it saying amongst other things that Srila Sridhar Maharaja is "religious" as opposed to spriritual. He also a few months ago brought up arguments against associating with the vani of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. A couple of months ago during one of his "poor me" diatribes against the perpetrators of his misery, the GBC and their gurus, I brouight up the concept of the absolute nature of surrender which is the door way to bhakti. (As Srila Narayana Maharaja explains it in relation to the Ramananda Samvad of C.C.). He then essentially argued against the very concept of surrender inferring that it is a concocted propaganda tool of a corrupt GBC. Now gradually his position has once again rotated back full circle to where it was about a year ago and he is no longer the agnostic that he presented just two or three months ago. At least one can be humble and say, "Oh I was in 'the dark night of the soul' but now by grace I see the truth of Krsna Consciouness again." But no, we just have someone who now is accusing others of offenses to Srila Prabhupada because they do not mouth his words in a literal manner.

[cbrahma]

 

The sense I get about Cbrahma is that he is a sincere soul and has great admiration for Srila Prabhupada but apparently he suffered first hand some of the grossness that occured in Iskcon or witnessed it firsthand and maybe that has caused some trauma or something but that is understandable in my opinion. That is merely my speculation but I have enjoyed Cbrahmas contributions to this forum but that doesn't mean I am in his "camp" just because I can see goodness in Cbrahma.

I will not get into an oblique argument with a self-professed Vaisnava who I've put on ignore. Suffice it to say politics is Beggar's life blood which is why he operates on making personal attacks. His position is indefensible since he tries to justify the GBC and the Math which are currently at war. Of course he needs to defend GBC because Sridhara was consulted by them initially during the zonal acarya fiasco. That whole debacle was exposed on one of these threads.

It's really very funny considering how rabid he gets in defense of both.

What he doesn't realize is that his behaviour discredits his spiritual claims (Vaisnavas don't get involved in politics because they are supposed to humble LOL) and his fallacies discredit his philosophical arguments.

[realist31]

 

Honestly, I have lost hope on our country very long time ago. I cant expect a street wanderer to change on my words, when I am not able to do so with my own people at home. When it comes Islam its totally naive and also blind, it has a tendency to attack from the front . And whoever comes in between it just go on killing, just like its kings and emporers, who did that in India, however there is merit in this religion, it shows whatever it has right infront of you, and coz of which you have the option to choose or not to choose from your heart, and proobably this is/was the reason why India never became an Islamic nation. However, when it comes to modern christianity, indeed the christianity it has a face which is fully disguised , and this is like a slow poison which goes through your mind and settles in your blood, it never gives a chance to think about to accept or not to accept.. Just like slow poison that kills bit by bit. And this christianity is takin over our nation -culturally. And it is doing so on the name of eradicating poverty. Mugals left, and left theor blood, English left they left their poisonous culture. Now, it seems like its highly irreversible. I cant see India getting its spiritual glory in near future. Even if it becomes very rich (which is very un- likely), it will never be able to teach that sublime lesson of soul, which it used to for ages...

 

Krishna save Bharath,

 

It is very sad indeed that our country has become this place where anyone is god as long as have a few lakh people to call them god and fall in their feet and also who do a few good charity works.

 

This practise of calling man a god has to be made a crime,by the way how can Krishna save Bharath,he is dead long time back?

 

GOD is a word thats been used way too cheaply in our country.

 

All religions are twisted to just put fear and temptation into people,we have to save ourself,no one is going to jump from above to do that,wake up people.

 

Without proof dont accept a man as god,whats even worse is to wait to go to some Heaven that may not even exist and not do anything worthy in this life here....Lazyness has taken a different form in chanting i guess..

[Beggar]

 

I will not get into an oblique argument with a self-professed Vaisnava who I've put on ignore. Suffice it to say politics is Beggar's life blood which is why he operates on making personal attacks. His position is indefensible since he tries to justify the GBC and the Math which are currently at war. Of course he needs to defend GBC because Sridhara was consulted by them initially during the zonal acarya fiasco. That whole debacle was exposed on one of these threads.

It's really very funny considering how rabid he gets in defense of both.

What he doesn't realize is that his behaviour discredits his spiritual claims and his fallacies discredit his philosophical arguments.

 

 

 

The absolute conception of saranagati or surrender to guru and Krsna is not a justification for the policies of a Governing Board or a particular acarya. It is just that, an absolute principle immune from the temporary nature of changing conditions of this world. It is something that is still far beyond my position, but I believe in saranagati and maybe one day I can approach the Lord in a sincere way. cbrahma also has given opposition to trnadapi sunicena...., the actual words of Mahaprabhu, Himself by implying that being humble is not a cornerstone of bhakti but rather the propaganda of temple or math managers. He has also show opposition to this verse:

 

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.14.8

 

 

tat te 'nukampāḿ su-samīkṣamāṇo

bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaḿ vipākam

hṛd-vāg-vapurbhir vidadhan namas te

jīveta yo mukti-pade sa dāya-bhāk

 

 

"My dear Lord, one who earnestly waits for You to bestow Your causeless mercy upon him, all the while patiently suffering the reactions of his past misdeeds and offering You respectful obeisances with his heart, words and body, is surely eligible for liberation, for it has become his rightful claim."

 

This has been done by claiming that those who tell us to "patiently suffering the reactions of his past misdeeds", while earnestly waiting for Krsna's causeless mercy are suckers and merely potential victims for sinister managers who have single handedly destroyed any real hope of practicing Krsna Consciousness for anybody in this era. While it is true that rank and file devotees have been abused by managers trying to control them by preaching these concepts in a hypocritical manner (certainly myself also) it still does not mean that these concepts are to be rejected for they are the most essential of all instructions by the Lord and the Vaisnavas to spiritual aspirants.

To attack these very essentials of the mood of bhakti and at the same time pose as a defender of the good name of His Divine Grace, Srila Prabhupada is a glaring hypocrisy and a travesty. This behavior coupled with a tendency to blame all gurus and their sangas for ones lack of inspiration is abhorrent at best. Yet I honestly pray and hope that cbrahma opens his mind and heart and gives up his egotistical and argumentative attitude. If he surpasses me in sraddha - faith for Sri Guru and Garuanga that will be a small accomplishment for him, for I am surely impoverished when it comes to these exalted qualities. Srila Sridhar Maharaj gave the example of a football (soccer player), that when he comes so close to the goal but does not score then the crowd will let out a collective moan because he has come so close yet failed to obtain the goal. Of course we are all like this, but it pains me to see such a fate fall to others even if they appear to temporarily be my adversary on Audarya Fellowship, Spiritual Discussions. After all I too, want to remember that a real devotee does not see anyone as his enemy.

[bija]

can appreciate your sentiment in what you have expressed but there is nothing you have written there that makes Jesus seem any less to me. by ancient

 

Nice....in my consciousness Jesus has never been less (now He is more!). We need to awaken to the spiritual platform gradually. Relativities are not the same as on the material platform, only endless misunderstanding exist on that plane.

 

In the top ten people to meet Jesus is there....and God help me (so is Joseph Smith) . Things intrigue me and the why's of thoughtful people is a pleasure to discover.

 

Ofcourse I make no comparison to Smith and Christ;)

 

(happy mothers day to all you mums out there)...didnt Jesus say 'this is not my mum, you are all my mums' haribol matajis!

[Dark Warrior]

 

Shaktyavesa means to be empowered by the Lord's shakti usually for a particular purpose. What we should maybe question is what degree of empowerment was given to Lord Jesus Christ?

 

Jesus is not Shaktyavesa because:

 

- A shaktyavesa avatar either talks about Hari (Narada) or remains silent on God (Buddha).

 

Jesus talked of a God who could be Vishnu, Shiva or even Allah, Yahweh. No Shaktyavesa avatar deals in ambiguities.

 

The reference in Bhagavatam to innumerable avatars pertains to the avatars like Rama, Narasimha, etc. of many previous yugas. It also pertains to the archa (murti) form of the Lord in temples. It also pertains to the indwelling Lord in everyone. So many Jivas, hence, so many indwellers as well.

 

It is possible for Vishnu to do something that is not mentioned in Sastra. But He doesn't, in order to ensure that His devotees have full faith in sastra. That is why Krishna kept His promise to Shiva and worshipped the latter, even when He (Krishna) had no need to.

[bija]

Is there any shaktyavesa avatara outside of the vedic tradition or traditions stemming from Bharata-vash, dark warrior?

 

Does Visnu show compassion in foreign lands? Is the voice of shakti only seen within the vedic framework?

 

I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I wish not to hear of the fallacies of christianity in your response, but of the view from your upbringing and faith (vaisnavism).

[tackleberry]

 

Japa after committing Vaisnava apharada. Nice.

 

CBrahma, you have neither the courage nor the integrity to answer a simple question. And you're accusing others of aparAdha, eh? But then again, this is exactly what Iskconites do, when all else fails. Admit you can't argue rationally, don't make a fool out of yourself.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Is there any shaktyavesa avatara outside of the vedic tradition or traditions stemming from Bharata-vash, dark warrior?

 

Does Visnu show compassion in foreign lands? Is the voice of shakti only seen within the vedic framework?

 

I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I wish not to hear of the fallacies of christianity in your response, but of the view from your upbringing and faith (vaisnavism).

 

There was no such thing as 'foreign tradition' in olden times. Everyone was included within the Vedic tradition.

 

If you notice, Egyptians, Romans and Pagans were worshipping nature. Sun-God, Moon-God, Jupiter, Mars, etc. This is sanctioned by Vedic Literature. Hence, their prayers reach and are ultimately satisfied by the mercy of Vishnu.

 

Vaishnavism was not the only religion even during the time of Rama or Krishna. Buddhism, Advaita, Shaivism, etc. are all eternal. Vaishnavas will always remain a minority even if its the Krita Yuga.

 

Only after the advent of Christianity and Islam, these nature worshippers were converted. Man-Made Religions. Yet, of course, it is Vishnu who receives the prayers of Christians. But that doesn't make the religion 'transcendental', it is just the Lord's willingness to accept anything.

 

Understand, Jesus could be a purna avatar of Chandra, Surya, Indra or any faulty deva. But there is little probability that he was Vishnu, amsa or purna.

 

I am all for universality of religion, but that doesn't mean one has to accept Jesus because 'his message is beautiful', as cBrahma and Theist claim.

[bija]

I am all for universality of religion, but that doesn't mean one has to accept Jesus because 'his message is beautiful' by dark

One thing I dont have much interest in these days is 'new age universalism' based on speculations or snip-bits of vedic scripture.

 

But Dark, you did not answer any of my questions. Can Visnu's light (not necessarily full shakti or truth) manifest in a teacher who had no contact with Vedic culture?

 

Surely compassion of the Supreme is not limited in scope, but speaks in regards to time, place, and circumstance...even using sectarian and cultural concepts? To raise the diverse human race to higher station of spiritual consciousness. In my opinion such is the controversy of Jesus in the Jewish tradition, and why the pharisee wished him killed.

 

(I have little appreciation for theories that Jesus lived in India)

[Dark Warrior]

 

But Dark, you did not answer any of my questions. Can Visnu's light manifest in a teacher who had no contact with Vedic culture?

 

(I have little appreciation for theories that Jesus lived in India)

 

Only if its mentioned in scripture. Otherwise, we cannot make assumptions.

 

Christians and Shaivas may worship God with devotion and sing about him, but our acharyas were all clear that we shouldn't consider them as bhaktas. Not unless their prayers are directed, with full jnana, to Vishnu.

 

Sri Vaishnava acharyas have blasted many Shaivas, despite their bhakti to Shiva. Lack of Jnana is not acceptable. Call it sectarian, but its the truth.

 

I am aware that you do not know whether to entirely believe that the Lord really has 4 hands, or whether our scriptures are metaphorical and simply illustrate the 'greatness of a supreme being who is personal'. Which is pretty much the reason for your doubts.

[bija]

Only if its mentioned in scripture. by dark

This is where I fundamentally disagree with your spiritual thinking. No text in this earthly plane can contain a full list of glory of the absolute, the full glories only manifest in the heart by mercy of, bhakti or a pure devotee, in most cases.

Sri Vaishnava acharyas have blasted many Shaivas, despite their bhakti to Shiva. Lack of Jnana is not acceptable. Call it sectarian, but its the truth. by dark

Please understand I do not hold such 'world views' of thought patterns in my conscious mind. Please do not paint pictures of my thought system:). Endless debates on these vrittis hold no purpose for bhakti and simplicity (going back home), in my realization. The acaryas may teach these things due to their boundless compassion, not from sectarian motivation.

 

I am aware that you do not know whether to entirely believe that the Lord really has 4 hands, or whether our scriptures are metaphorical and simply illustrate the 'greatness of a supreme being who is personal'. Which is pretty much the reason for your doubts. by dark

If Krsna by his grace gives the jaap-yogi an internal glimpse of his beautiful form, and tears flow from the eyes due to that first time glimpse (and the aroma of that transcendental body entices one)...little doubt remains. To have such a fore-taste is another state of consciousness where mental doubts and arrows are being removed. Doubts arise from being situated on the mental platform of argumentation.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

(happy mothers day to all you mums out there)...didnt Jesus say 'this is not my mum, you are all my mums' haribol matajis!

I think it was more, "She's my mom, but you guys can be my moms too, since you love me so much." Kind of like how we can approach Krishna as a mother or father, and He accepts it, but Yashoda is still His mom

[Dark Warrior]

 

Only if its mentioned in scripture. by dark

 

This is where I fundamentally disagree with your spiritual thinking. No text can contain a full list of glory of the absolute.

 

This isn't about glory. Its about the avatars and the history of the Lord.

 

If He had taken an avatar as Jesus, rest assured, the likes of Vyasa and Suka would have mentioned it. And I have already explained how Hari never does something that isn't in sastras

Please understand I do not hold such 'world views' of thought patterns in my conscious mind. Please do not paint pictures of my thought system:). Endless debates on these vrittis hold no purpose for bhakti, in my practice.

 

Bhakti to Shiva or to the Christian God is useless. Only when you understand that the Lord has 4 hands, with conch, discus, mace and lotus, adorned with the Kaustubha Gem and Srivatsava mark, of bluish-blackish complexion....that is Bhakti.

 

Nammalvar clearly says that Bhakti without Jnana may lead to a better birth, but not to moksha.

 

 

If Krsna by his grace gives the jaap-yogi an internal glimpse of his beautiful form, and tears flow from the eyes due to that first time glimpse...little doubt remains. To have such a fore-taste is another state of consciousness where mental doubts and arrows are being removed. Doubts arise from being situated on the mental platform of argumentation.

 

Just a simple question - Do you accept Vyasa's description of the Supreme Lord as having 4 hands, etc.?

 

If so, you will agree that bhakti to Shiva, who has matted locks, and a cobra, with a trident, or to a man named Jesus, is not legitimate according to scripture.

 

No offense.

[Malati dasi]

Why are we so hang-up on Jesus? Jesus talked about God in the form of light!

 

The shastras have given us the mercy by which we can have a glimpse of the Lord's rupa, swarup, guna, form, qualities nature. Why settle for anything less?

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

Jesus talked about God in the form of light!

Where?

[bija]

 

Just a simple question - Do you accept Vyasa's description of the Supreme Lord as having 4 hands, etc.?

 

If so, you will agree that bhakti to Shiva, who has matted locks, and a cobra, with a trident, or to a man named Jesus, is not legitimate according to scripture.

 

No offense.by dark

Ofcourse I accept...two days ago I was in jaap and saw baby Krishna holding a club. I did not will this it just appeared. It was very beuatiful jaap.

 

I dont know about not legitimate. Legitimate reminds me of the word legality. I wish not to discuss Shaivate, Shakta practice etc in relation to Vedic text (see text below for why I choose this way). Polemics open the door for offences. And offences harden the heart.

 

And by the way Dark no offences taken in our quick chat, it is very interesting for me to talk to a Sri Vaisnava (not an everyday thing in my hometown)

Those who desire to become one with the Lord are in a dangerous and suicidal situation, whereas those who perform devotional activities mechanically are not in such a precarious position, because they are able to relish a sweet and more intimate relationship with the Supreme Lord.

Because both Lord Vishnu and Lord Siva (Sadasiva) embody the same Supreme Consciousness they are nondifferent. However, both Lord Vishnu and Lord Siva (Sadasiva) reside simultaneously on dual planes of nirguna (transcendence), and saguna (material nature). The unmotivated and transcendental devotees worship only the nirguna Supreme Consciousness, while the sakama fruitive workers can worship simply the saguna aspect of the Supreme Consciousness. This shows the inherent distinction between Lord Vishnu, Lord Siva, Lord Brahma, and the jivas.

It is important to note that many Puranas propound the theory of Lord Vishnu and Lord Brahma being one. The analogy of the sun and the precious gem suryakanta mani, will help as to understand this oneness. In a sense, the sun and the reflected glory of the sun in the gem are the same. In some mahakalpas, or millenniums, the Supreme Lord empowers certain jivas to take up the position of Lord Siva or Lord Brahma. just as the jewel is dependent on the sun for its glory, Lord Brahma and Lord Siva are dependent on the Supreme Lord for theirs. This point has been confirmed in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (1.73):

yas tu narayanam devam brahma-rudradi-daivataih

samatvenaiva viksheta sa pashandi bhaved dhruvam

The scriptures also state that if a person, after considering all these facts, adamantly equates Lord Vishnu with demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, and so on he is condemned as an atheist and an offender. The basis of this scriptural injunction lies in the fact that while Lord Brahma is generally an empowered jiva, Lord Siva at times is also an empowered jiva. Persons who have not researched deeply 'into this subject matter end up forming their own speculative ideas. They make such comments as, “Lord Vishnu is God and not Lord Siva”, or “Lord Siva is the Supreme, not Lord Vishnu.” They continue to say, 'We are undeviating devotees of Lord Vishnu; we do not care for Lord Siva”, and vice versa. Hence their inclination to polemics leads them to commit offences. Now, the only way they can mitigate their offences is to meet a devotee well-versed in this topic who is willing to instruct them properly. The confused can become enlightened about everyone's real position, including in which way Lord Siva and Lord Vishnu are qualitatively nondifferent. Such persons begin to repent of having committed such offences and sincerely take up chanting the Lord's holy name. In fact, it is this chanting that finally exonerates such people from their offence.

Some say that these sections of the Vedas do not carry the slightest mention about the science of devotional service, so they are fit to be praised and appreciated only by mundane scholars. Those who lash out with such caustic criticism against those parts of the Vedas that propound the process of empirical knowledge and fruitive action will have to appease, with reconciliatory praises, those who follow such sections. Additionally, the offenders must chant the holy. name to absolve the fourth nama-aparadha: blaspheming the Vedic scriptures and its corollaries.

One may ask why not indeed criticize those section emphasize empirical knowledge and fruitive action. The answer is because the scriptures are most merciful. By some unexpected good fortune if an offensive person meets a devotee who is knowledgeable about the Vedas, he will receive proper instructions on Vedic understanding. If the offender sincerely understands these instructions then he will truly appreciate the Vedas. Out of compassion for persons who are unfit for devotional service, who are duplicitous in action, and totally absorbed in mundane matters, the Vedas inspire them to become resolute in following its divine edicts, thus helping to uplift them. The Vedas benevolently draw these erring souls away from the pravrtti-marg (the path of worldly-mindedness) and towards nivrttt-marg ,(the path of detachment). Without having the realization that the Vedas are benevolent, and without possessing a deferential mood towards the sruti, one's offences cannot be mitigated. Thus we have discussed the prime cause of offences as well as how to absolve them.

[bija]

 

Where? radhey

many evangelical protestants I have talked to over the years have argued to me that God has no form. They quote bits of Jesus words when he says 'God is spirit, what is born of spirit is spirit, what is born of flesh is flesh'. They have said to me spirit has no body. Very vague interpretations of christian text.

 

They have very basic understandings of God from their limited literal interpretations, from scripture that is very limited in many ways initially. I feel this is where the christian evengelical zeal is limited, they disregard all other sacred texts, and see the followers of such texts as un-saved.

 

Bede Griffiths, and Thomas Merton (two catholic monks influenced by vedanta) took a very different approach to christian text. Unfortunately their attractions where more to moniistic vedanta than personalistic vedanta. Maybe due also to their christian foundation.

 

So in this regard people like Dark Warrior have valid argument.

[Dark Warrior]

As it so happens, Bhagavad Ramanujacharya said, 'Do not worship Shiva. It is unvedic. Only Vishnu is Supreme'.

 

Again, his argument is backed by sastras. There is no pramana in your quote to substantiate your argument.

 

Shiva is different from Vishnu. That is established by sastras. To say that he is equal to Vishnu, or non-different, is ajnana.

 

And if even Shiva worship is unvedic, there is no need to bring up Jesus.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

Ofcourse I accept...two days ago I was in jaap and saw baby Krishna holding a club. I did not will this it just appeared. It was very beuatiful jaap.

 

Wow! I've never seen Krishna And I probably won't for a very long time.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

many evangelical protestants I have talked to over the years have argued to me that God has no form. They quote bits of Jesus words when he says 'God is spirit, what is born of spirit is spirit, what is born of flesh is flesh'.

 

They have very basic understandings of God freom there limited literal interpretations, from scripture that is very limited in many ways.

Well of course God is spirit, but spirit can have form as well! Silly ministers, Nectar's for devotees!

[bija]

silly billies...

 

'our belief systems can sure limit the truth sometimes'

[RadheyRadhey108]

How true.

[bija]

Wow! I've never seen Krishna And I probably won't for a very long time. radhey

Just a fore-taste. Gurudeva said what I see is not the full picture but shows my practice is moving in the right direction. You are on the right path Radhey in your love for Radharani, I aspire for faith such as yours and admire that!

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

Wow! I've never seen Krishna And I probably won't for a very long time. radhey

 

Just a fore-taste. Gurudeva said what I see is not the full picture but shows my practice is moving in the right direction. You are on the right path Radhey in your love for Radharani, I aspire for faith such as yours and admire that!

My faith is small... but Radharani is very loving and merciful, so hopefully She will accept what I have to offer.