Why Vaishnava & Vaishnav Gods Targeted ?

[bija]

http://nitaaiveda.com/Compiled_and_Imp_Scriptures/Madhurya_Kadambini.htm

 

bookmark this if you like Radhey...wonderful book on the esoterics of bhakti and love.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

http://nitaaiveda.com/Compiled_and_Imp_Scriptures/Madhurya_Kadambini.htm

 

bookmark this if you like Radhey...wonderful book on the esoterics of bhakti and love.

Thank you!

[cbrahma]

 

CBrahma, you have neither the courage nor the integrity to answer a simple question. And you're accusing others of aparAdha, eh? But then again, this is exactly what Iskconites do, when all else fails. Admit you can't argue rationally, don't make a fool out of yourself.

I'm not an Iskconite. Get your politics right. I already addressed your moronic point over and over again about your so-called simple question, but your too obtuse and arrogant to concede. I will not be intimidated by your attempt to argue across threads and hi-jack this one.

[cbrahma]

 

Why are we so hang-up on Jesus? Jesus talked about God in the form of light!

 

The shastras have given us the mercy by which we can have a glimpse of the Lord's rupa, swarup, guna, form, qualities nature. Why settle for anything less?

We can see how prejudice is born of ignorance. Jesus spoke of God as Father, not light.

Get over it.

[AncientMariner]

I can't fully get a read on Beggar to be honest. He is intelligent no doubt but I get the sense that he is trying to steer everyone who has an affection for Srila Prabhupada into becoming a disciple of Narayana Maharaja which sometimes makes me feel that his motives are not purely spiritual but political like you say. I hope this is not the case and Beggar just really does feel so enthusiastic about Narayana Maharaja and others that we all can be benefited by his writings and such. I still tend to suffer from attention deficit disorder when reading anything but Prabhupada so I don't know how that is gonna work for me.

[cbrahma]

 

I can't fully get a read on Beggar to be honest. He is intelligent no doubt but I get the sense that he is trying to steer everyone who has an affection for Srila Prabhupada into becoming a disciple of Narayana Maharaja which sometimes makes me feel that his motives are not purely spiritual but political like you say. I hope this is not the case and Beggar just really does feel so enthusiastic about Narayana Maharaja and others that we all can be benefited by his writings and such. I still tend to suffer from attention deficit disorder when reading anything but Prabhupada so I don't know how that is gonna work for me.

There is a world of difference between enthusiastic proselytizing and starting a smear campaign against groups.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

There is a world of difference between enthusiastic proselytizing and starting a smear campaign against groups.

Beggar's other than Prabhupada quotes seem to be about 2/3 Sridhar Maharaja and 1/3 Narayana Maharaja. Other than that he also frequently quotes Tripurari Maharaja, Narasimha Maharaja and ironically Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja of the central Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math. (I remember him posting those pictures of Govinda Maharaja at the Siva temple at his math).

 

 

... I still tend to suffer from attention deficit disorder when reading anything but Prabhupada so I don't know how that is gonna work for me.

Your not the only one, but we need to read what others write or quote in a thorough way if we are going to have a serious opinion about it.

 

P.S. From an objective viewpoint you have to wonder why those who quote Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada and some of his criticism of his godbrothers are engaging in proselytizing and a smear campaign again Srila Prabhupada's gurubhai (godbrothers) and their disciples are not also guilty of some kind of "smear campaign". Of course I am thinking about that famous letter to Rupanuga about Sridhar Maharaja.

[AncientMariner]

 

P.S. From an objective viewpoint you have to wonder why those who quote Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada and some of his criticism of his godbrothers are engaging in proselytizing and a smear campaign again Srila Prabhupada's gurubhai (godbrothers) and their disciples are not also guilty of some kind of "smear campaign". Of course I am thinking about that famous letter to Rupanuga about Sridhar Maharaja.

 

 

I am not that familiar with Iskcon politics as most of that stuff happened either before I was born or when I was just a little kid so I really don't have the knowledge of the whole situation to determine who is smearing who and so on and so forth. I have tried to get caught up on the history of it all but having no first hand knowledge of the people involved etc. I have determined that it is useless for me to have an opinion one way or another about Prabhupadas relationship with his Godbrothers and the ritvik issue.

[bija]

The smear idea is an illusion that internet paints often.

 

Beggar usually posts thoughtful insights from advanced devotees such as Srila Narayana Maharaja and Srila Sridhara Maharaja. I dont see these posts as trying to win people over to his Gurus. That is an illusion. The posts are generally enlightening and helpful from a siddhanta perspective.

 

All this my camp your camp stuff is an illusion mostly. And the Hare Krsna who has seen bhakti does not normally think this way.

[AncientMariner]

 

The smear idea is an illusion that internet paints often.

 

Beggar usually posts thoughtful insights from advanced devotees such as Srila Narayana Maharaja and Srila Sridhara Maharaja. I dont see these posts as trying to win people over to his Gurus. That is an illusion. The posts are generally enlightening and helpful from a siddhanta perspective.

 

All this my camp your camp stuff is an illusion mostly. And the Hare Krsna who has seen bhakti does not normally think this way.

 

 

I haven't read enough of Srila Narayana Maharaja or Srila Sridhara Maharaja to know much about them and I don't even actually know who they are other than the fact that they are Srila Prabhupadas godbrothers. Prabhupada I feel I know on some level because he sailed over the ocean at an old age specifically to spread Vedic knowledge to the west so that he could help us westerners and that just makes me feel more intimately connected to Prabhupada on some level because he did all this hard work especially for people like myself. I am sure that Narayana Maharaja and Sridhara Maharaja have a lot of great things to say but I sometimes have trouble reading all the stuff Beggar posts from those gentlemen because I do not feel intimately connected to them like I do Prabhupada and I end up getting attention deficit disorder.

[bija]

Thx for sharing that. That connection is the truth. Its about relationship isnt it?

 

cy'all later in the day....going for a jaap walk...to relax and see the Sun - the almighty eye!

 

always a pleasure to read your posts ancient:cool:

[Beggar]

 

I haven't read enough of Srila Narayana Maharaja or Srila Sridhara Maharaja to know much about them and I don't even actually know who they are other than the fact that they are Srila Prabhupadas godbrothers.

Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja are two of Srila Prabhupada's prominent godbrothers. Srila Kesava Maharaja took sannyasa from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Srila Prabhupada took sannyasa from Srila Kesava Maharaja. Srila Narayana Maharaja is Srila Kesava Maharaja's disciple and also took sannyasa from Srila Kesava Maharaja. Srila Prabhupada gave much association to Srila Narayana Maharaja in the late 40's, 50's and 60's. Srila Prabhupada also gave the disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja much instruction and affection in his pre-coming to the West Lila. Srila Prabhupada even wrote that he saw Srila Sridhar Maharaja as his siksa or instructing guru.

[bija]

a letter from Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada to Sria Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

 

http://mybloop.com/go/gajUfh

 

here is Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja's Gita for download, it is beautiful beyond words, it reads like poetry:

 

http://mybloop.com/go/l7O8AR

[cbrahma]

 

From an objective viewpoint you have to wonder why those who quote Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada and some of his criticism of his godbrothers are engaging in proselytizing and a smear campaign again Srila Prabhupada's gurubhai (godbrothers) and their disciples are not also guilty of some kind of "smear campaign". Of course I am thinking about that famous letter to Rupanuga about Sridhar Maharaja.

 

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I haven't made comments about 'those who quote', nor do I care to make comments about other groups. I made a comment about Beggar waging a character assination war on an individual by associating that individual with some group described by a political slogan like 'Prabhupada only' that begs more questions than it answers.

Either way this is not a forum to discuss people's character in cyberspace, but spiritual issues in a rational non-political way.

[cbrahma]

 

The smear idea is an illusion that internet paints often.

 

The 'smear' idea is well founded by so many personal attacks using political slogans, that are intended to have destructive effects on the target's character.

Hardly an illusion or such offensive fallacious behavior such as flaming wouldn't be outlawed on so many forums.

[bija]

I agree cbrahma fully with your statement here.

 

But I express it as an illusion because it has nothing to do with bhakti.

 

To be honest I feel that if we cultivate a mind full of this 'stuff' we will not taste nectar, that is right before our hearts.

 

This is the point I was attempting to bring out for Ancient Mariner, who is simple hearted and kind. I wished to share with him how uneccesary all these discussions are, and how counter-productive they are to the goal. Hence illusory!

 

Infact when I got my first computer not so long ago all this 'stuff' entered my mind. I began to dislike what I read and offences grew in my heart to the point of beginning to dislike Hare Krsna people. It took a long time to clear that 'stuff' from my mind. Out of respect, care, and concern for Ancient Mariner's rapid spiritual growth I post all this. That is what was in my heart when I replied to him.

 

Any residual from that 'stuff' I will utilize to lift the situation.

 

Infact I would like oneday for Audarya Fellowship to be able to have more mod's and make this place the best Krsna Forum on earth, we are so close:idea:

[bija]

Its not false, just illusory. To coin a vaisnava term.

 

A distraction like the magicians movements.

[cbrahma]

It's really a matter of politics rather than proper debate. Now one can debate politics in statements like 'such and such is political' but to engage in the politics by smearing somebody's character is NOT Vaisnava. This a Vaisnava should already know. It is the cheapest and least intelligent form of debate in any case. It is a last resort. It really means you have run out of valid arguments.

[cbrahma]

Bhaktivinode Thakura was beyond petty politics and sectarianism.

 

 

To Love God

 

 

by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

Reprinted from a Journal of Tajpur Dated Friday, 25th August, 1871.

 

 

<HR align=center width=650 SIZE=1>

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=181 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD height=89>

 

 

 

 

 

Bhaktivinód Thákur

(1838-1914)

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

It was Christ Jesus who first said "Love God with all thy heart, with all thy mind, with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and love man as thy brother." This is an absolute truth indeed; but different men put different interpretations to this noble expression. The expressions of all great men are nice but somewhat mysterious. When understood they bring the truth nearest to the heart otherwise they remain mere letters that ‘kill'. The reason of the mystery is that men, advanced in their approach to the Deity, are in the habit of receiving revelations which are but mysteries to those that are behind them. The stages of progress are very much the same as the circles of spiritualism which, though not true themselves, explain a great deal about the gradual development of the soul.

We have understood some spiritualists to maintain that matter when sublimated converts itself to spirit. This theory is indeed against any inward conviction. Matter is matter, and spirit is spirit; one of them cannot form the other. Spirit is certainly of a superior existence; though we cannot fully understand in our present state of material imprisonment, what relation Spirit does exactly bear to matter, space and time.

Metaphysics apart, we decide that the human soul rises higher and higher and can understand things of which we have no idea at present. Subject to this important rule, Christ Jesus of Nazareth received and uttered the words quoted above. To readers who are a little above the scale of ordinary men, these expressions of Jesus teach that man should love God with all his heart (meaning the affections of the heart perceivable in all children as opposed to hate), with all his mind, (meaning the intellect which knows as opposed to ignorance of good things), with all his soul (meaning that principle of the human constitution which worships the Almighty and feels its own immortality), and with all his strength (meaning all active work). To the inspired, however, more things and better and more sublime meanings appear beneath these holy words of the inspired Jesus. He teaches man to love God and not to know, infer, hate, or think of God. He tells us that man in his absolute state is not the intellect or the body but is the pure soul itself.

The essence of the soul is wisdom and its action is love absolute. The absolute condition of man is his absolute relation to the Deity in pure love. Love then alone is the religion of the soul and consequently of the whole man. The pupil asks here, "What have I to do with the heart? — My heart loves ‘to see the sun smile, to eat the sweetest dish and to see a dance.' Jesus profoundly replies "Yes, you must love God with all thy heart, your heart now runs to things other than God, but you must, as you train a bad horse, make your feelings run to the loving God." This is one of the four principles of worship or what they call in Vaisnava literature, santa rasa.

Then the pupil says, "My Lord, the intellect takes me elsewhere from God, that is, it wants to take me to positivism; please instruct me what am I to do?Yes," replies Jesus, "You must love God with all your mind, that is, when you perceive, conceive, remember, imagine and reason, you must not allow yourself to be a dry thinker but must love. Love alone can soften the dryness of the intellect, you must develop the intellect on all good and holy things by means of love of truth, spiritual beauty and harmony." This is the second phase of Vaisnava development which passes by the name dasya rasa.

The pupil then inquires whether development of the affections and the intellect is quite enough for him. Then says the Lord "You must love God with thy soul also, that is, you must perceive yourself in spiritual communication with the Deity and receive holy revelations in your sublimest hours of worship." This is called the sakhya rasa of the Vaisnavas — the soul approaching the Deity in holy and fearless service. The disciple apprehends that he will be lost in such a position and will be unable to act. Then the Saviour tells him these words, "You must love God with all thy strength or will — you are wrong in concluding that you will loose your active existence — you will get it the more. Work for God and work to God, proceeding from no interested views but from a holy free will (which is alone the strength of man) and identifying with pure love, it will fully engross your attention." This is a description of bhakti in general. Then Jesus proceeds to tell us, "You must love man as thy brother." From this is inferred the fourth phase of love which is a feeling that all men are brothers and God is their common Father. This is vatsalya rasa in its first stage of development.

Bhakti (love) is thus perceived in the very first development of man in the shape of heart, then in the shape of mind, then in the shape of soul and lastly in the shape of will. These shapes do not destroy each other but beautifully harmonize themselves into a pure construction of what we call the spiritual man or the ekanta of Vaisnava literature. But there is another more sublime truth behind this fact which is revealed to a few that are prepared for it. We mean the spiritual conversion of the soul into a woman. It is in that sublime and lofty state in which the soul can taste the sweetness of an indissoluble marriage with God of Love. The fifth or the highest stage of Vaisnava development is this, which we call madhurya rasa, and on this alone the most beautiful portion of the Vaisnava literature so ably expatiates. This phase of human life, mysterious as it is, is not attainable by all, nay, we should say, by any but "God's own". It is so very beyond the reach of common men that the rationalists and even the ordinary theists cannot understand it. Nay, they go so far as to sneer at it as something unnatural. Oh God! Reveal Thy most valuable truths to all so that "Your own" may not be numbered with the fanatics and the crazed and that the whole of mankind may be admitted as "Your own."

 

 

 

[Dark Warrior]

Same post in two threads? cBrahma is at it again.

 

'God' is not part of Vaishnavism. Actually, Vaishnavism is about recognising Brahman as Vishnu. First, define what God Jesus was talking about. Apparently, Bhaktivinode Thakura has forgotten to take into consideration that Vaishnavas have vehemently opposed personal Shaiva, Ganapatya and Shakta sects.

 

Bhaktivinode Thakura also claims that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu came in Sri Ramanujacharya's dreams, something that no Sri Vaishnava would ever accept. So, try to understand that an acharya's opinion is not a Pramana.

 

You will no doubt, evade the whole point. Well, if you really want to believe in 'Christ-Loka', no-one's stopping you.

[cbrahma]

 

Same post in two threads? cBrahma is at it again.

 

'God' is not part of Vaishnavism. .

 

I love it. "God is not part of Vaishnavism". Against the statements of the GV acaryas themselves. LOL.

 

I reposted because it is of sufficient power and relevance to several topics. I have to keep reposting because there is usually a convenient disconnect on the topic.

[Dark Warrior]

 

I love it. "God is not part of Vaishnavism". Against the statements of the GV acaryas themselves. LOL.

 

Because moron, the christian 'God' is certainly not part of Vaishnavism. And which Gaudiya Vaishnava acharya prior to BVT mentioned that the Bible is Veda, or that Jesus is Vaishnava?

 

Your 'God' does not conform to the Brahman of the Vedas and Upanishads. Therefore, 'God' is not part of Vaishnavism.

 

 

I reposted because it is of sufficient power and relevance to several topics. I have to keep reposting because there is usually a convenient disconnect on the topic.

 

The only relevance it has to this topic is that it proves your blind belief.

[Malati dasi]

Radhe Radhe

 

With due respect to Bhativinode Thakur. I remember in one of the threads theist quoted Bhaktivinode Thakur this: Krishna's name is non-different from his swarup or form.

 

Therefore we have to settle who Jesus's God is. As have been pointed out by Dark Warrior, it could be any god. (However, good Jesus messgae is). By Jesus not mentioning it we just can't be sure. Our God is Krishna!

 

Bhaktivinode thakur is a great acharya but he is not the only great acharya of the Vaishnava world. His words has authority for GM/ISKCON but may not have the same weight for others. As DW has pointed out his words are not pramans.

 

Since most Iskconites and GM posit the idea that Jesus is a shaktyavesha avatar even though 2 shastras mention a list of shaktyavesha avatars not including Jesus the onus is on you to prove it, not the opposition.

 

And dont put aparadha into the picture, or else it will only prove you are on a shaky ground. Or to blunt then you lose the debate. Prove it!

[Dark Warrior]

No aparadha on my part. There are differences in philosophy as far as schools of Vedanta are concerned, but I strictly maintain respect for every acharya, and any bhakta of Vishnu deserves this respect.

 

There are many instances in our sastras where offenders of devotees have been punished severely. It is for this reason that a Vaishnava, be he a Madhva, Sri Vaishnava or Gaudiya Vaishnava, should maintain respect for other sampradayic personalities as well.

 

That being said, of course, I disagree with BVT on various points. And 'God' is not even a Vaidika term, although we use it commonly. 'Brahman' is the ultimate Being. That is what I was trying to say, which cBrahma failed to comprehend.

[Amlesh]

Pas facile!!!!!!!!

 

Pas facile!!!!!!!!