More from the pioneering years of ISKCON's Zonal Acarya days (after 1977)

[cbrahma]

 

Why would you think that Iskcon under Prabhupada's direction was a "purely material organization"? Also I think that the points I have made are valid. I can't see what you are driving at? What are you trying to prove? I question if you are on a search for truth or are only interested in being right?

ISKCON under his direction was not simply an organization. Under his direction it was the vehicle for his preaching mission. No matter how you slice it, the roles of the sanyassis and ritviks do not translate into zonal diksa gurus.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

ISKCON under his direction was not simply an organization. Under his direction it was the vehicle for his preaching mission. No matter how you slice it, the roles of the sanyassis and ritviks do not translate into zonal diksa gurus.

I'm not saying that roles of the sanyassis and ritviks translated into zonal diksa gurus. What I'm trying to show is that such a thing can easily be misunderstood and then such a situation as "Zonal Acaryas' can happen. But a spiritual movement's transformation in to a mundane organization does not have to be all black and white. It can happen completely or partially depending on the circumstances. The material atmosphere tends to erode the spiritual nature of a movement or even it's teachings, otherwise why does Krsna say yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati, that when the real spiritual teachings erode then I come to re-establish them. If someone like Srila Prabhupada knows this then why did he come to the West? Why did he even bother to preach? Why did Krsna arrange to send him? The answer is by causeless mercy. The real blame is on the material energy, for it is Maya herself that has caused so many problems and ultimately it is Krsna's fault for creating such a lila as the material world.

[cbrahma]

 

I'm not saying that roles of the sanyassis and ritviks translated into zonal diksa gurus. What I'm trying to show is that such a thing can easily be misunderstood and then such a situation as "Zonal Acaryas' can happen. But a spiritual movement's transformation in to a mundane organization does not have to be all black and white. It can happen completely or partially depending on the circumstances. The material atmosphere tends to erode the spiritual nature of a movement or even it's teachings, otherwise why does Krsna say yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati, that when the real spiritual teachings erode then I come to re-establish them. If someone like Srila Prabhupada knows this then why did he come to the West? Why did he even bother to preach? Why did Krsna arrange to send him? The answer is by causeless mercy. The real blame is on the material energy, for it is Maya herself that has caused so many problems and ultimately it is Krsna's fault for creating such a lila as the material world.

The process of spiritual advancement is gradual and certainly disintegration can be gradual or all at once. There were too many fall downs and too much corruption for the former scenario to be admitted. To generalize the problem as Maya or Kali Yuga is how ISKCON excuses itself from reponsibility, especially the protagonists which are the GBC.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

To generalize the problem as Maya or Kali Yuga is how ISKCON excuses itself from reponsibility, especially the protagonists which are the GBC.

For us to be good hearted and generous then we will see that it's just the play of the material energy. But for the perpetrators, they must accept responsibility and repent for their offenses to Srila Prabhupada's mission otherwise they are hopeless. Similarly all of us small fries must repent and accept responsibility for ruining our own spiritual lives and therefore being unable to really help others. This is why criticizing the institution is the flip side of defending it. The real path requires one to look within constantly and question one's own motives and this is called atma-niksepana. If an institutional manifestation of Krsna Consciousness has been relativised and this has become a thorn in our side, then we need to stop looking at it and proceed with just ourselves and perhaps a few good friends. To constantly analyze what went wrong with ISKCON after Srila Prabhupada's manifest lila is like hanging out and gazing at a traffic accident where there are serious injuries. This is especially pernicious if we don't have a positive Krsna Conscious alternative. Move along folks there's nothing to look at, move along.

[mahak]

Srila Prabhupada pioneered ISKCON, not the post disappearance items you write about. I was hoping to hear about some of these guys in better days, before they were consumed with religiosity, sense grat, econ devel, and liberation.

 

But youll get lots of replies, because kali yuga folks just love the discord of the age.

 

Early pastimes mean body surfing with Prabhupada or having him joke around with disciples who doubled as his friends. Or how he thwarted the false egos of some who thought they were greatly advanced in his presence (One should always associate with guru as a fool.)

 

 

haribol, ys, mahgaksadasa

[cbrahma]

 

For us to be good hearted and generous then we will see that it's just the play of the material energy. But for the perpetrators, they must accept responsibility and repent for their offenses to Srila Prabhupada's mission otherwise they are hopeless. Similarly all of us small fries must repent and accept responsibility for ruining our own spiritual lives and therefore being unable to really help others. This is why criticizing the institution is the flip side of defending it. The real path requires one to look within constantly and question one's own motives and this is called atma-niksepana. If an institutional manifestation of Krsna Consciousness has been relativised and this has become a thorn in our side, then we need to stop looking at it and proceed with just ourselves and perhaps a few good friends. To constantly analyze what went wrong with ISKCON after Srila Prabhupada's manifest lila is like hanging out and gazing at a traffic accident where there are serious injuries. This is especially pernicious if we don't have a positive Krsna Conscious alternative. Move along folks there's nothing to look at, move along.

I see no value in defending the perpretators or covering up the truth. That is precisely what enabled on the nonsense for so many years. In order for a problem to be solved in must first be identified, not denied to protect the guilty.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

I see no value in defending the perpretators or covering up the truth. That is precisely what enabled on the nonsense for so many years. In order for a problem to be solved in must first be identified, not denied to protect the guilty.

 

It's seems that you suffer from some mental illness that includes paranoia.

[cbrahma]

 

It's seems that you suffer from some mental illness that includes paranoia.

Oh of course. I'm imagining all the corruption, along with thousands of others who left ISKCON because of the GBC power grab. Luckily I was not part of it, nor victimized by it. The stories are coming from the victims, not my allegedly paranoid imagination. I have absolutely no stake in it nor I am afraid that they are out to get me. The illness you suffer from is fanatical denial.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Oh of course. I'm imagining all the corruption, along with thousands of others who left ISKCON because of the GBC power grab. Luckily I was not part of it, nor victimized by it. The stories are coming from the victims, not my allegedly paranoid imagination. I have absolutely no stake in it nor I am afraid that they are out to get me. The illness you suffer from is fanatical denial.

I removed myself from the Iskcon ranks some 27 yrs. ago due to the problems you describe. If I would have continued to focus so much attention and obsess about as you are doing I would have gone mad a long time ago. Just because there was big trouble in the Iskcon institution does not mean that if we are sincere practitioners that we will not follow the advices of guru, sadhu and sastra. They advise that somehow or other we fix the mind on Krsna yena kena prakayena manah Krsna nishevayat. Focusing on the faults of others is not the perscription rather it is something to avoid like a plague. Even impersonalists, mystics, yogis and mundane psychologists know to focus on and accentuate the positive not the negative. The philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is that of acintya bheda abheda tattva, or simultaneous oneness and difference as espoused by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Himself. Just because the Gaudiya Vaisnavas accept bheda or some duality in the Absolute does not mean that we should become lost in the duality of this world. The practitioners of bhakti yoga are to analyze the world as the combination of the three modes of material nature. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur has expertly used this model in a revolutionary way in much of the literature that he has produced. I would recommend that you read his books such as Jaiva Dharma, Sri Krsna Samhita, The Bhagavat Speech and others. Anyway a Vaisnava is always gentle with others and harsh on himself and not visa versa. If Srila Prabhupada would have spent his time up on a soap box trying to bring down his godbrothers for the failings of the Gaudiya Math, then what would have been our fate?

[theist]

I'm with Mahak.

 

My experiences were few because I was always a fringey type. One time though Visnujana Swami can through my area with his traveling bus party carrying Radha/Damodhar in Deity form.

 

The bus was gutted out and the inside was transformed into a temple room. Vishnujana was there with one other person and myself and he was speaking about Krishna. Then he asked if I knew how to play Mrdunga and I told him no. He then started an impromptu lesson on mrdunga play and as there was no other mrdunga there at that time he had me playing air mrdunga.

 

Of course what he was doing was engaging my senses in some way practical. It was so wonderful just being in his presence even just for that short while. I could feel Radha/Damodhar's presence behind the closed curtains and I swear before the Lord Himself They were smiling lovingly at Vishnujana and let me see it.

 

I will be doing extraordinarily well to remember those moments at the time of my death.

 

I know this little story won't mean anything to anyone else but it is priceless to me. Now just think how many other similar moments are held dear by all the people that Visnujana came in contact with because he seemed to virtually live in that loving caring consciousness and expressed it to all he met.

[Vigraha]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by mahak

 

Srila Prabhupada pioneered ISKCON, not the post disappearance items you write about.

 

Early pastimes mean body surfing with Prabhupada or having him joke around with disciples who doubled as his friends. Or how he thwarted the false egos of some who thought they were greatly advanced in his presence (One should always associate with guru as a fool.)

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

I like that, very very true, but history must be undertood so the mistakes of the past never happen again

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>On a mass scale the media were right into Bhavananda, they glorified Bhavananda on a level in Ausralia in the media that was not happening anywhere else on the planet, he was loved by the Television news, papers, magazines and radio, the media wanted more and more of Bhavananda and if he never fell down, if it was real, or even became real, his charisma would of attracted millions in Australia.

 

That was already happening, but unfortuanately is wasn't real and his fall down actually disappointed many in the media who greatly liked him.

 

Lord Caitanta wants it to be real and not lead by someone who imitates a pure devotee.

 

One thing is certain, many of us had a glimps of what it would be like if another pure devotee like Srila Prabhupada, preached the pure message of Lord Caitanya.

 

It would be beyond our wildest dream

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[Beggar]

 

One thing is certain, many of us had a glimps of what it would be like if another pure devotee like Srila Prabhupada, preached the pure message of Lord Caitanya.

 

It would be beyond our wildest dream

 

There are pure devotees preaching Krsna Consciousness in this world at present... but, "another pure devotee like Srila Prabhupada". That's asking a bit much. Surely nobody ever spread Krsna Consciousness on a scale like Srila Prabhupada. He is a saktyavesa avatara of Nityananda Prabhu and he shows up around 400 or so years after Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself.

The only dream that would be wilder is the effect of chanting the pure name of Krsna.

[cbrahma]

 

I removed myself from the Iskcon ranks some 27 yrs. ago due to the problems you describe. If I would have continued to focus so much attention and obsess about as you are doing I would have gone mad a long time ago. Just because there was big trouble in the Iskcon institution does not mean that if we are sincere practitioners that we will not follow the advices of guru, sadhu and sastra. They advise that somehow or other we fix the mind on Krsna yena kena prakayena manah Krsna nishevayat. Focusing on the faults of others is not the perscription rather it is something to avoid like a plague. Even impersonalists, mystics, yogis and mundane psychologists know to focus on and accentuate the positive not the negative. The philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is that of acintya bheda abheda tattva, or simultaneous oneness and difference as espoused by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Himself. Just because the Gaudiya Vaisnavas accept bheda or some duality in the Absolute does not mean that we should become lost in the duality of this world. The practitioners of bhakti yoga are to analyze the world as the combination of the three modes of material nature. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur has expertly used this model in a revolutionary way in much of the literature that he has produced. I would recommend that you read his books such as Jaiva Dharma, Sri Krsna Samhita, The Bhagavat Speech and others. Anyway a Vaisnava is always gentle with others and harsh on himself and not visa versa. If Srila Prabhupada would have spent his time up on a soap box trying to bring down his godbrothers for the failings of the Gaudiya Math, then what would have been our fate?

Your logic escapes me. The success of Gaudiya Vaisnavism is not predicated upon the present ISKCON but rather the vani of Srila Prabhupada. He is ISKCON, not the institution, let alone the GBC.

One must always be alert to the corruption of false prestige especially where it concerns bogus gurus. They are the most evil because they deliberately pervert the spiritual Truth.

Just as ksyatrias are administrators they are also warriors. The war here is against false representatives who denigrate and distort Prabhupada's legacy and teaching. This is intolerable and should be exposed without compromise.

[AncientMariner]

 

Your logic escapes me. The success of Gaudiya Vaisnavism is not predicated upon the present ISKCON but rather the vani of Srila Prabhupada. He is ISKCON, not the institution, let alone the GBC.

One must always be alert to the corruption of false prestige especially where it concerns bogus gurus. They are the most evil because they deliberately pervert the spiritual Truth.

Just as ksyatrias are administrators they are also warriors. The war here is against false representatives who denigrate and distort Prabhupada's legacy and teaching. This is intolerable and should be exposed without compromise.

 

The vani of Srila Prabhupada is really about the only thing I find intersting about Vaisnavism and ISKCON. I am sure some of the previous acaryas probably have some good stuff to say but I just haven't gotten around to reading any of it except for all the quotes by beggar and shaktifan but even those don't seem to keep my attention for very long.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

One must always be alert to the corruption of false prestige especially where it concerns bogus gurus. They are the most evil because they deliberately pervert the spiritual Truth.

 

Where in the sastras or the teachings any guru does it say,"One must always be alert to the corruption of false prestige especially where it concerns bogus gurus?" Obviously a sincere, aspiring sadhaka should search for a real guru and avoid bogus gurus. But in every spiritual process, all yogas, one must be alert to the corruption of false prestige especially where it concerns themselves. We are told to put our hand on heart each night before we take rest and think if we have made advancement that day by pleasing guru and Krsna. The Bhagavad Gita talks about "the introspective sage". Introspective means inward looking not outward looking towards the environment. It sounds like you are obsessed with blaming the environment for whatever reason. As conditioned souls we all have this tendency. But if what you write is an insight into your mentality, which it must be, then you are really missing the point of spiritual life. Who ever originally came to The Krsna Consciousness Movement to obsess about the faults of others, even if they are the GBC? The trade secret is that we become what we criticize for that is the natural law of the mental plane. Didn't your mother tell you, "if you can't say anything good about someone, don't say anything at all?" That's the general rule. Guess what? Your mother was right.

[cbrahma]

 

Where in the sastras or the teachings any guru does it say,"One must always be alert to the corruption of false prestige especially where it concerns bogus gurus?" Obviously a sincere, aspiring sadhaka should search for a real guru and avoid bogus gurus. But in every spiritual process, all yogas, one must be alert to the corruption of false prestige especially where it concerns themselves. We are told to put our hand on heart each night before we take rest and think if we have made advancement that day by pleasing guru and Krsna. The Bhagavad Gita talks about "the introspective sage". Introspective means inward looking not outward looking towards the environment. It sounds like you are obsessed with blaming the environment for whatever reason. As conditioned souls we all have this tendency. But if what you write is an insight into your mentality, which it must be, then you are really missing the point of spiritual life. Who ever originally came to The Krsna Consciousness Movement to obsess about the faults of others, even if they are the GBC? The trade secret is that we become what we criticize for that is the natural law of the mental plane. Didn't your mother tell you, "if you can't say anything good about someone, don't say anything at all?" That's the general rule. Guess what? Your mother was right.

 

Isopanisad 12

The pseudo religionists have neither knowledge nor detachment from material affairs, for most of them want to live in the golden shackles of material bondage under the shadow of philanthropic activities disguised as religious principles. By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. They ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana--"One must worship the acarya"--and Krsna's statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, "This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession." Instead, to mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called acaryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the acaryas. These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gita that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg. 16.19-20). Sri Isopanisad confirms that these pseudo religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification.

Thank-you very much.

 

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Isopanisad 12

They ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana--"One must worship the acarya"--and Krsna's statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, "This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession." Instead, to mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called acaryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the acaryas.

Of course if a devotee feigns being an acarya and does not follow the principles of the acaryas it is a great distubance in devotional society. But this is mostly about those who become teachers of spirituality without accepting a bonafide guru in the line of disciplic succession themselves. To become a bonafide teacher one must become a bonafide student. The student must also not, "ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana--"One must worship the acarya"--and Krsna's statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, "This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession." The perfect student becomes an acarya but our position at present is to become at least a neophyte and hopefully a madhyama student. As Srila Prabhupada once told, "first save yourself then you can save others." Our first concern is to become bonafide disciples of a bonafide guru. Everything depends on our own sincerity.

[cbrahma]

 

Of course if a devotee feigns being an acarya and does not follow the principles of the acaryas it is a great distubance in devotional society. But this is mostly about those who become teachers of spirituality without accepting a bonafide guru in the line of disciplic succession themselves. To become a bonafide teacher one must become a bonafide student. The student must also not, "ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana--"One must worship the acarya"--and Krsna's statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, "This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession." The perfect student becomes an acarya but our position at present is to become at least a neophyte and hopefully a madhyama student. As Srila Prabhupada once told, "first save yourself then you can save others." Our first concern is to become bonafide disciples of a bonafide guru. Everything depends on our own sincerity.

'Our' sincerity? The GBC's sincerity is what is at issue. Your evasions are becoming tedious. I really don't want to discuss this anymore.

[Sarva gattah]

 

One time though Visnujana Swami can through my area with his traveling bus party carrying Radha/Damodhar in Deity form.

 

The bus was gutted out and the inside was transformed into a temple room. Vishnujana was there with one other person and myself and he was speaking about Krishna.

 

Then he asked if I knew how to play Mrdunga and I told him no. He then started an impromptu lesson on mrdunga play and as there was no other mrdunga there at that time he had me playing air mrdunga.

 

Of course what he was doing was engaging my senses in some way practical. It was so wonderful just being in his presence even just for that short while.

 

I could feel Radha/Damodhar's presence behind the closed curtains and I swear before the Lord Himself They were smiling lovingly at Vishnujana and let me see it. I will be doing extraordinarily well to remember those moments at the time of my death.

 

I know this little story won't mean anything to anyone else but it is priceless to me.

 

Now just think how many other similar moments are held dear by all the people that Visnujana came in contact with because he seemed to virtually live in that loving caring consciousness and expressed it to all he met.

 

Beautiful pastime and so enliving, do you have anymore nectarine stories, how fortunate you were to associate with Vishnujan Swami, I listen to his kirtans all the time - yes those days with Prabhupada present were very special

[theist]

 

Beautiful pastime and so enliving, do you have anymore nectarine stories, how fortunate you were to associate with Vishnujan Swami, I listen to his kirtans all the time - yes those days with Prabhupada present were very special

 

I see I misread the thread title. I just saw pioneering days of Iskcon, opened it up and thught everyone else was really blowing it. Just now I saw the after 1977 part. Oh well.

 

To associate with Vishnujana would be a major over statement. I had his association a few times for short periods of time. Made a deep impression however.

 

Not much in the way of nectarean stories from me unfortunately.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

'Our' sincerity? The GBC's sincerity is what is at issue. Your evasions are becoming tedious. I really don't want to discuss this anymore.

 

I don't believe that any bonafide guru/sadhu will give anyone a license for obsessive faultfinding despite what the GBC, the KGB or the CIA has done.

 

 

Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession.

(Iso 12)

 

The teachings of "the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession" is to give up faultfinding not embrace it. Krsna Consciousness is not a brand of politics.

[cbrahma]

 

I don't believe that any bonafide guru/sadhu will give anyone a license for obsessive faultfinding despite what the GBC, the KGB or the CIA has done.

 

 

 

The teachings of "the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession" is to give up faultfinding not embrace it. Krsna Consciousness is not a brand of politics.

Gosh. That's the one trick pony that has enabled the corruption in ISKCON to go on for so long. Calling a murderer a murderer is not fault finding. Prabhupada always spoke the truth however unpalatable. The obsession is the cover up. He attacked bogus gurus and bogus teachers all the time. Do you need examples?

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Gosh. That's the one trick pony that has enabled the corruption in ISKCON to go on for so long. Calling a murderer a murderer is not fault finding. Prabhupada always spoke the truth however unpalatable. The obsession is the cover up. He attacked bogus gurus and bogus teachers all the time. Do you need examples?

 

I don't dispute that calling a thief a thief is proper and not faultfinding in it's proper context. This means that if one discovers a thief in the act of thievery then one may alert others so that they may not themselves be victimized. But this does not mean that one has license to obsess about the faults of thieves or prostitutes as ones principle focus or occupation. Of course there is the story of the brahmana and the prostitute:

 

Once, in a peaceful village, there lived a scholarly and devotional brahmana Opposite his home, there lived a prostitute.

As a daily observance, the brahmana would sit in his doorway and recite the Gita. Meanwhile, across the street, the prostitute would tend to her business.

As the years passed, the brahmana grew ever more disturbed by the prostitute. “Just see how lowly she is.” he would think to himself and continue with his recitation.

It so happened that both the brahmana and the prostitute died at the same time. To the brahmana’s surprise, the Vishnuduttas (the Lord of Heaven’s messengers) came to deliver the prostitute while the Yamadutas (the Lord of Death’s messengers) came for him. “What is this?” he protested. “There must be some mistake!”

The Visnudutas replied, “My dear brahmana, there is no mistake. While you were busy meditating on the lowly activities of the prostitute, she listened to you recite the Gita and prayed that she could one day elevate herself to your position. In this way the prostitute achieved liberation while you only degraded yourself.”

[cbrahma]

 

I don't dispute that calling a thief a thief is proper and not faultfinding in it's proper context. This means that if one discovers a thief in the act of thievery then one may alert others so that they may not themselves be victimized. But this does not mean that one has license to obsess about the faults of thieves or prostitutes as ones principle focus or occupation. Of course there is the story of the brahmana and the prostitute:

I will object as long as there will be obssessive cover up. Admit the gross fault and I am done.

[Kulapavana]

 

That's the one trick pony that has enabled the corruption in ISKCON to go on for so long.

 

I agree. The fear of "committing an ofense" by speaking out against perceived wrong actions, and the willingness to believe in what even to a child looks like a total BS, enabled crooks, liars, and abusers to act with impunity in Iskcon.