More from the pioneering years of ISKCON's Zonal Acarya days (after 1977)

[Beggar]

 

Other Vaishnavas like Prabhupada and his spiritual master and his spiritual master? Gaudiya Vaisnavism has its sampradaya. There is nothing narrow about accepting it especially when its version of Vaisnavism is non-sectarian.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

Note: This is a paraphrase

 

They say, "O Prabhupada, O Prabhupada, you are so great". But if he is so great then he cannot even leave one successor behind? How great a contradiction is that!

[AncientMariner]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

Note: This is a paraphrase

 

 

Did one of Prabhupadas Godbrothers say that? That is a lousy thing to say about Prabhupada if true. All Prabhupada could do was instruct people after that it was up to them.

[Beggar]

 

Did one of Prabhupadas Godbrothers say that? That is a lousy thing to say about Prabhupada if true. All Prabhupada could do was instruct people after that it was up to them.

You've got it bassackwards my friend. He is saying that it is not possible that there are no successors in Srila Prabhupada's line. This is a refutation to the idea that the disciplic line coming through Prabhupada ended with him when he entered nitya lila. IOW he was refuting what was to eventually be called Rtvikism. Remember, "suscpicion leads to suspension".

[AncientMariner]

 

You've got it bassackwards my friend. He is saying that it is not possible that there are no successors in Srila Prabhupada's line. This is a refutation to the idea that the disciplic line coming through Prabhupada ended with him when he entered nitya lila. IOW he was refuting what was to eventually be called Rtvikism. Remember, "suscpicion leads to suspension".

 

I see what you are saying. I thought the quote was saying that Prabhuadas Godbrother thought Prabhupada wasn't great because he didn't appoint any successors. My fault, I apologize.

[Kulapavana]

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>3. Prabhupada was far more critical of his Godbrothers than they were ever critical of him. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

That could be debated ad nauseam and has. Nevertheless you prefer to ally yourself with his critics.

 

 

Quite frankly I have not seen any quotes from his Godbrothers criticizing him. All I ever see is quotes where he criticizes them. If anything, his Godbrothers went to a great length to avoid criticizing him, even for some truly puzzling actions, like implementing daily guru-puja in front of the Deities in the temple, which can be seen as a violation of the Vaishnava scriptures (even Srimati Tulasidevi receives her puja with curtains closed).

[Beggar]

 

Quite frankly I have not seen any quotes from his Godbrothers criticizing him. All I ever see is quotes where he criticizes them.

Certainly there were criticisms coming from some godbothers, like over using the title, Prabhupada, but nothing ever in writing and certainly nothing published.

[cbrahma]

 

Quite frankly I have not seen any quotes from his Godbrothers criticizing him. All I ever see is quotes where he criticizes them. If anything, his Godbrothers went to a great length to avoid criticizing him, even for some truly puzzling actions, like implementing daily guru-puja in front of the Deities in the temple, which can be seen as a violation of the Vaishnava scriptures (even Srimati Tulasidevi receives her puja with curtains closed).

There are some serious ones which is why Prabhupada said what he did about them. But again that controversy is unnecessary (and I am bored by it) because they did not support him in his mission and waited for him to leave his body before they stepped in. What is even more fascinating is that you defend the GBC and the present ISKCON structure the Math gurus were instrumental in validating and setting up.

So you talk out of both sides of your mouth on the topic of 'blind' ISKCON and accepting authority. It's a position I find completely baffling and incoherent until I realize that ISKCON presents a ready made market for these gurus.

[Beggar]

 

There are some serious ones which is why Prabhupada said what he did about them. But again that controversy is unnecessary (and I am bored by it) because they did not support him in his mission and waited for him to leave his body before they stepped in.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja never stepped in. During the late 70's until 1988 when he entered nitya lila, he never left his math compound. The ISKCON devotees went to see him, asked him advice and questions. Remember Srila Narayana Maharaja is not a godbrother but a disciple of Srila Prabhupada's godbrother, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja (Srila Prabhupada's sannyasa guru). Srila Sridhar Maharaja and other godbrothers were personally requested by Srila Prabhupada to help his discipes in his physical absence. Srila Sridhar Maharaja was the only one that Srila Prabhupada called his siksa guru.

[Kulapavana]

 

There are some serious ones which is why Prabhupada said what he did about them. But again that controversy is unnecessary (and I am bored by it) because they did not support him in his mission and waited for him to leave his body before they stepped in. What is even more fascinating is that you defend the GBC and the present ISKCON structure the Math gurus were instrumental in validating and setting up.

 

You have no such quotes - period. Only the criticism from Prabhupada and his cultist followers repeating it ad nauseam. That is why there is no "discussion".

 

I think that the present Iskcon structure where it comes to gurus is pretty much what Prabhupada wanted. It is the quality that he would object to. As to the "Math gurus instrumental in validating and setting up" the Iskcon guru structure - they fully supported what Prabhupada put in place, out of love and respect for him and his disciples. Sridhara Maharaja actually cried when he heard of the guru falldowns in Iskcon.

[cbrahma]

 

You have no such quotes - period. Only the criticism from Prabhupada and his cultist followers repeating it ad nauseam. That is why there is no "discussion".

 

I think that the present Iskcon structure where it comes to gurus is pretty much what Prabhupada wanted. It is the quality that he would object to. As to the "Math gurus instrumental in validating and setting up" the Iskcon guru structure - they fully supported what Prabhupada put in place, out of love and respect for him and his disciples. Sridhara Maharaja actually cried when he heard of the guru falldowns in Iskcon.

Not true. There are whole threads with all kinds of quotes. I told you that I don't want to start up that topic again. And why is your exclusive attention to Sridhara enlightened whereas somebody's devotion to Prabhupada is 'cultic'? Such biased political rhetoric convinces only yourself.

[Kulapavana]

 

And why is your exclusive attention to Sridhara enlightened whereas somebody's devotion to Prabhupada is 'cultic'?

 

I never had exclusive attention to any one guru. I started reading Sridhara Maharaja's books in 1988 and had a deep appreciation for him from day one. Just like I developed a deep appreciation for Prabhupada from day one. They are both great and unique, and very complimentary. Same with Narayana Maharaja. There is no need for divisions.

[cbrahma]

 

I never had exclusive attention to any one guru. I started reading Sridhara Maharaja's books in 1988 and had a deep appreciation for him from day one. Just like I developed a deep appreciation for Prabhupada from day one. They are both great and unique, and very complimentary. Same with Narayana Maharaja. There is no need for divisions.

Yes but you criticize Prabhupada with impunity and defend the Math gurus with the same fervor, especially in the matter of sectarianism. Whenever I quote Bhaktivinode, or Prabhupada on matters of siddhanta, I'm a 'blind ISKCONite', as though that proved anything.

[Beggar]

 

I never had exclusive attention to any one guru. I started reading Sridhara Maharaja's books in 1988 and had a deep appreciation for him from day one. Just like I developed a deep appreciation for Prabhupada from day one. They are both great and unique, and very complimentary. Same with Narayana Maharaja. There is no need for divisions.

When Srila Sridhara Maharaja was told that many devotees cannot understand how someone can have more than one guru, he replied:

That is because they are situated in a formal position, but when they enter into substantial spiritual realization, they will not have such a grievance because they will see what is guru. Guru means one who has come to give Krsna consciousness. The formal difference will be reduced when one can catch the very substance of the teachings for which the guru is respected. When one is intimately connected with the thread of divine love which the guru comes to impart to us, he will accept it, wherever it comes from. He will see it as a friendly relation-not antagonistic, but cooperative. Although separate in figure, at heart both of the gurus are the same because they have a common cause. They have not come to fight with one another; they have come to fight only with the agents of Satan. If we can recognize the real thing for which we are approaching the guru, then we will understand how to make the adjustment in our relationship with the siksa guru, diksa guru, and vartma-pradarsaka guru [the instructing spiritual master, the initiating spiritual master, and the one who first shows the way to devotional life, respectively]. We are infinitely indebted to all our gurus. We are helpless. What can we do? They are benevolent; they are infinitely gracious; they are my guardians. I may have many guardians. They are to look after my welfare; they have not come to destroy me.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yes but you criticize Prabhupada with impunity and defend the Math gurus with the same fervor, especially in the matter of sectarianism. Whenever I quote Bhaktivinode, or Prabhupada on matters of siddhanta, I'm a 'blind ISKCONite', as though that proved anything.

 

What I criticize is the misconceptions and myths his followers peddle to the world outside. I defended Prabhupada many, many times, but he is not often attacked. Yet his disciples attack the GM gurus all the time, with real impunity, with total lies and nasty language, and in an organized fashion. That is why you see me defending these Vaishnavas more often.

[cbrahma]

 

What I criticize is the misconceptions and myths his followers peddle to the world outside. I defended Prabhupada many, many times, but he is not often attacked. Yet his disciples attack the GM gurus all the time, with real impunity, with total lies and nasty language, and in an organized fashion. That is why you see me defending these Vaishnavas more often.

I've read your clarifications - deciding what his intentions were to preserve your sectarian attitudes.

[Kulapavana]

 

When Srila Sridhara Maharaja was told that many devotees cannot understand how someone can have more than one guru, he replied:

"We are infinitely indebted to all our gurus. We are helpless. What can we do? They are benevolent; they are infinitely gracious; they are my guardians. I may have many guardians. They are to look after my welfare; they have not come to destroy me."

 

That is real wisdom and realization. Sri Guru comes to us in many ways. We miss more of His appearances than we recognize. But how can one miss an appearance of Sri Guru in someone like Sridhara Maharaja? That is complete blindness.

[cbrahma]

 

That is real wisdom and realization. Sri Guru comes to us in many ways. We miss more of His appearances than we recognize. But how can one miss an appearance of Sri Guru in someone like Sridhara Maharaja? That is complete blindness.

I see so whether there is real wisdom and realization it is subject to your authority. So why do I need the guru. If I quote him, it has to pass your approval for 'real wisdom' and realization. So you are guru.

[Beggar]

Throughout his life, Srila Prabhupada always maintained the highest respect for and confidence in Srila Sridhara Maharaja. He even sent some of his disciples to Srila Sridhara Maharaja for instruction. On January 31, 1969, in a letter to one of his disciples, Hrsikesa dasa, he wrote:

 

Because you are my disciple and, I think, a sincere soul, it is my duty to refer you to someone who is competent to act as

siksa

guru.For spiritual advancement of life, we must go to someone who is actually practicing spiritual life; not to some head of a mundane institution, not to someone who has offended his spiritual master in so many ways. I do not wish to go into details here. So, if you are actually serious to take instructions from a

siksa

guru, I can refer you to the one who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my

siksa

guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have by his association.So, if you are serious about the advancement of your spiritual life, I will advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja.It will be very good for your spiritual benefit, and I will feel that you are safe. When I was in India with the others, we lived with Sridhara Maharaja. You can also make arrangements for your other godbrothers to go there in the future.

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

I see so whether there is real wisdom and realization it is subject to your authority. So why do I need the guru. If I quote him, it has to pass your approval for 'real wisdom' and realization. So you are guru.

 

First, my friend you have to RECOGNIZE the real guru.

 

I have no doubt I need a guru. In fact, I need as many gurus as I can find in this life. It is not like they grow on trees in Central Park. I am not a guru, but for my own use I must be able to recognize the real guru.

[cbrahma]

 

First, my friend you have to RECOGNIZE the real guru.

 

I have no doubt I need a guru. In fact, I need as many gurus as I can find in this life. It is not like they grow on trees in Central Park. I am not a guru, but for my own use I must be able to recognize the real guru.

I recognize guru and his qualities - they are found in Srila Prabhupada.

Having said that I realize other gurus are wanting, especially in their relationship with him. This does not exclude ALL other gurus, only those who have discredited themselves in their mundane endeavors and their teachings on guru-tattva, which I believe is the case with Sridhara and Narayana.

[Kulapavana]

 

...those who have discredited themselves in their mundane endeavors and their teachings on guru-tattva, which I believe is the case with Sridhara and Narayana.

 

nobody I know has a more confused view of guru-tattva than disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Just look around - it's a mess: from zonal acharya grouppies to ritviks, and from blind GBC acceptance to "guru is the book" crowd. This is your "golden standard"?

 

In the matter of explaining that subject matter I know of no better guru than Sridhara Maharaja.

[Beggar]

 

I recognize guru and his qualities - they are found in Srila Prabhupada.

Having said that I realize other gurus are wanting, especially in their relationship with him. This does not exclude ALL other gurus, only those who have discredited themselves in their mundane endeavors and their teachings on guru-tattva, which I believe is the case with Sridhara and Narayana.

Here is how Srila Prabhupada refers to his esteemed godbrother:

 

So, if you are actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, I can refer you to the one who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have by his association.

 

Yet Srila Prabhupada didn't refer to him as Sridhara but rather as Sridhara Maharaja. But we can just invoke Srila Prabhupada's name and automatically believe that we are followers whether we follow or not. This truly is the politics of attempting to project one's ego into the realm of the supramundane. This is imaginary spiritual life, or pretense and is genuinely a form of sahajiyaism. Otherwise why would such a person object to trnadapi sunicena?

(Remember cbrahma has me blocked, so he won't see this post)

[Sarva gattah]

 

What is even more fascinating is that you defend the GBC and the present ISKCON structure the Math gurus were instrumental in validating and setting up.

 

They did not set it up but they did strongly support it and encouraged its formation

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Prabhupada was far more critical of his Godbrothers than they were ever critical of him. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

That's nonsense, even purchasing the land at Mayapur they tried to stop

because of their envy

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

 

They say, "O Prabhupada, O Prabhupada, you are so great". But if he is so great then he cannot even leave one successor behind? How great a contradiction is that!

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Ha he sat in his little village in India for over 90 years sqandering so much knowlege, fighting his gobrothers in the courts over ownership of the Gaudiya matha and eating prasadam, thats all he ever did!!.

 

In fact if it was not for Prabhupada, Beggar would not be quoting him at all because no one would of known about him!!

[Kulapavana]

 

Here is how Srila Prabhupada refers to his esteemed godbrother:

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>So, if you are actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, I can refer you to the one who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have by his association. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Yet Srila Prabhupada didn't refer to him as Sridhara but rather as Sridhara Maharaja. But we can just invoke Srila Prabhupada's name and automatically believe that we are followers whether we follow or not. This truly is the politics of attempting to project one's ego into the realm of the supramundane. This is imaginary spiritual life, or pretense and is genuinely a form of sahajiyaism. Otherwise why would such a person object to trnadapi sunicena?

 

 

yes, it is their over-inflated ego that gets in the way. "my guru is the best. he is everything. everybody else is nothing."

 

that is why shastras sometimes recommend that we hide our guru, and hide our istha deva. so that the demon of our false ego will not use them against us.

[Beggar]

 

Ha he sat in his little village in India for over 90 years sqandering so much knowlege, fighting his gobrothers in the courts over ownership of the Gaudiya matha and eating prasadam, thats all he ever did. In fact if it was not for Prabhupada, Beggar would not be quoting him at all because no one would of known about him!!

 

Sarva, this is not the correct attitude. Part of what Srila Prabhupada meant by calling Sridhar Maharaja his siksa guru was that the two them were really friends and spend much time together especially when Sridhar Maharaja and his disciple Govinda Maharaja lived with Srila Prabhupada above his pharmacy in the late 40's. They often discussed high siddhanta and shared realizations. But by the sadacara, Srila Prabhupada treated Sridhar Maharaja as a senior for he had joined the mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur earlier and had been a sannyasi for many years while Prabhupada was still extenally in grhasta life. Srila Prabhupada took inspiration from Srila Sridhar Maharaja and of course visa versa. Another thing is that Sridhar Maharaja was a big preacher in the Gaudiya Math during the time of their gurudeva and he also travelled extensively throught India. And even if he hadn't been a big preacher, can we always judge based on this? Was Gadadhara Pandit a big preacher? How many temples did he open? How many books did he distribute?