More from the pioneering years of ISKCON's Zonal Acarya days (after 1977)

[Beggar]

<center> The Sons of the Son:

The Breakup of the Gaudiya Matha

 

http://www.bvml.org/contemporary/JD_tsots.html

 

by Sriman Jalakara dasa (ACBSP)

 

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The Gaudiya Math…consisted of 64 Maths and centers which had been established by means of donated money. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada’s sannyasins went out on bhikshu tours and sometimes returned with appointments with very rich people who wanted to donate. The most famous donation perhaps was the beautiful Bhag Bazaar Math - marble temple, mansion and hall - which was all donated by one family. In other cases groups of families got together. One family would donate the building site, another the ground floor, a third family would donate the first floor; someone else would donate the painting work and someone else the movables. After donation, the buildings belonged to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada. He was the owner of all property.”¹⁹

Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur used to call Ananta Vasudeva "My Ganesh" because he helped so much in writing and preaching, just as Ganesa helped Vyasadeva. Sometimes, while giving lectures Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati would speak animatedly for some minutes, so quickly that it was difficult to understand. Then he would stop and ask Ananta Vasudeva (Aug 25, 1895 - March 8, 1958) to explain what he had said, which Ananta Vasudeva would do perfectly. It was as if he knew his masters mind. He was also an expert singer and mrdanga player, and Srila Prabhupada liked to hear him sing, so he would often ask him to sing. When he asked others to sing, he would tell them what song to sing, but with Ananta Vasudeva he didn't. Ananta Vasudeva could sing for a long time without getting tired. Ananta Vasudeva had met Srila Bhaktivenode Thakur in 1911 at the age of 16 at Bhakti Bhavan in Calcutta, and first met Sri Siddhanta Saraswati there in 1918.

“One time in Puri, at the Lila Kutir, there was one room near to Haridasa Thakura's samadhi, and Srila Prabhupada was staying there. He liked to hear Yashomatinandana sung when he was there. Ananta Vasudeva was an expert singer and mrdanga player and Srila Prabhupada liked to hear him sing.”⁴

In the Gaudiya Math there was a saying: "If you want to know about siddhanta you should go to Vasudeva Prabhu, and if you want to know about seva you should go to Kunja Babu [Kunjabihari Vidyabusana]."

”Srila Prabhupada wrote that we are a mission of the vani. We may not collect so much money. Money is not such a great thing. But the vani we must follow." So like this, he pretended to have a heart attack. He told that he had had a heart attack. It was at this time that he said he wanted to stay in this world for ten more years but now he was not feeling to do so. He was disturbed by the sraddha ceremony of Kunja Babu [Kunjabihari Vidyabusana]. At first Srila Prabhupada was very pleased with Kunja Da [Kunjabihari]. He was working in the Post Office in Calcutta, helping to organize the mission. Later he went to Mesopotamia [iraq] and sent money for the mission. Srila Prabhupada praised him saying, ‘He is just like a manjari helping the sakhis. He is a manjari. As the manjaris help the sakhis, so Kunja Da is helping our mission in many ways.’ But after ten years, when he performed the smarta shraddha ceremony for his mother, deliberately defying Srila Prabhupada's order, Srila Prabhupada said, ‘This day is the day of the downfall of the Gaudiya Mission!’ Srila Prabhupada sent him three letters to stop that smarta sraddha, but still he went ahead with it. In the beginning, when Kunja Da first came, Srila Prabhupada appreciated his service and even helped him financially. From 1923 Kunja Da was helping Srila Prabhupada, but after 1932 he didn't follow his orders properly anymore.” ⁴

“The management of the Gaudiya Math was organized as follows. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati was the undisputed administrative and spiritual leader. Below him in the hierarchical structure was a trustee board [also sometimes known as the Board of Governors] with three members. By 1936, they were Yasodanandana Bhagavat Bhusana, Ananta Vasudeva, and Paramananda Vidyaratna. Furthermore, there was a general secretary, Kunjabihari Vidyabusana, plus the secretary assistant, Bhakti Kevala Audulomi Maharaja [the brother of Sri Bhakti Prajana Keshava Maharaja].”¹⁹

”Each member of the board had his own field of responsibility. Ananta Vasudeva was in charge of the properties plus he was chief editor for all of Gaudiya Mission’s publishing businesses. This was quite a job since there were so many magazines, books and papers in different languages. ISKCON’s Ravindra Svarupa once described Ananta Vasudeva as a man who remembered - i.e., a man who would remember everything he saw and read. He had very high demands on himself as well as on others, and this was the reason why everybody thought of him as quite a tough person. Kunjabihari Vidyabusana was in charge of all movable property plus he had staff functions. As to his tasks, Kunjabihari Vidyabusana had contact with many temple devotees daily and was considered less coarse than Ananta Vasudeva. Kunjabihari Vidyabusana was answerable to the acharya and to the three members of the trustee board - not the other way around.”¹⁹

Gradually his Gaudiya Math institution grew to 64 branches, mostly in Bengal and Orissa, but also large cities in India such as Delhi and Madras, and foreign places as Rangoon and London and Berlin. Because the Gaudiya Math was so Bengal-oriented, it was almost mandatory for non-Bengali members to learn the Bengali language.

In Vrindavan, early in 1935, he wrote a letter, saying, "I have to stay in this world ten years more, but now I am going. The internal struggle in the Gaudiya Math is too much. They don't want me in this world!" In the last one or two years he became very critical of materially motivated devotees.⁴

“When the organization expanded there was money, many branches, prestige, then always problems occurred. In the early days, all the devotees were very seriously engaged in their sadhana - very serious about spiritual life. Later on, although the preaching was going on, they were building buildings, and doing so many things, but the spirit was different. It even came to the point of arguing over which rooms in the Gaudiya Math building in Bhag Bazaar they should occupy.”⁴

”Disruption in the Gaudiya Math had taken place since the beginning of the 1930’s and different wings were fighting each other. But from January 1, 1937, when Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur passed away, the disagreements came out in the open. The trouble began when Kunjabihari Vidyabusana insisted upon continuing as the new acharya in Gaudiya Math. Kunjabihari maintained that Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur had appointed him as acharya in verbal instructions. However Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur’s verbal instructions given on December 23, 1936 (eight days before his demise) to the [devotees] assembled in Bhag Bazaar Math did not mention this. The instructions were written down immediately and the wording is rendered in several books. One author writes: ‘On 31st Dec. [1936], the day previous to his disappearance Srila Prabhupada called for all his important disciple by his side and advised them to note down the following instructions for their Guiding Principles in future: Form a Governing Body of 10 to 12 persons for management of Mission work but Kunja Babu [Kunjabihari] will manage as long as he lives. Kunja Babu’s sympathy for me brought me in connection with so many persons. His intelligence excelled all. His sympathy for me knows no bounds. I advise you (Kunja Babu) to be courageous and callous as I am callous to all. This should be your guiding principle. I told the other day and again I say Kunja Babu should be respected as long as he lives. Do not quarrel with one another. Vasudeva [Ananta Vasudeva] should engage himself in writing something and he should help the Professor (Nishi Kanta Sanyal) and Sundarananda in this respect.’”¹⁹

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada departed this earth on 1st January 1937. Immediately, the mood arose that a new acharya should be appointed. Ananta Vasudeva made the point that Kunja Babu was appointed leader of the mission activities and not as the acharya of the mission. He maintained Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada didn’t want Kunja Babu to be acharya because he was a grihastha. “Another reason was that Ananta Vasudeva considered Kunjabihari Vidyabusana to be a subordinate, a secretary, who in his eagerness to advance tried to bypass the board.”¹⁹

But Srila Prabhupada (he accepted that title in 1931) had made his will known before his departure, appointing three members to oversee its implementation; Paramananda Vidyaratna prabhu, Ananta Vasudeva Brahmacari, and Kunjabihari Vidyabhusan prabhu.¹⁴ This group is different from the trustee board as previously cited. Sometimes these individuals are referred to as the three governors or trustees.

“Srila Prabhupada wrote on a piece of paper: ‘In case I die, these three men: Kunja babu, Paramananda Vidyaratna and Ananta Vasudeva, will be trustees, with the majority being effective.’ So that scrap of paper was kept by Tirtha Maharaja [Kunjabihari], and later on guru maharaja [srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati] wanted to make a constitution, but he [Kunjabihari] avoided, he didn't do it. After his [srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati ] demise that scrap of paper was presented in the High Court and the property was given. ⁴

“In the beginning, Prabhupada was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that ‘I may die.’ So he made a scrap paper, that ‘In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gaudiya Math Institute.’ That's all. So this Kunja Babu kept this.”¹

His disciples were to form a governing body to administer his mission after his departure, and it was constituted on the tenth day after his departure.15 This body was made up of twelve members: Kunjabihari Vidyabhusan prabhu, Paramananda prabhu, Ananta Vasudeva Brahmacari, Bhakti Keval Audulaumi Maharaja, Professor Nisikantha Sanyal, Hayagriva Brahmacari, Giri Maharaja and some others. A little later, Bon Maharaja was added to the body. Later all sannyasis were added.

As previously noted, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada had made Kunjabihari Vidyabhusan prabhu (who was already the first and life-long secretary of the Gaudiya Math) the president for life; that is, the manager of the entire mission.

“Once while residing in the Calcutta Gaudiya Matha, Srila Sarasvati Thakura was deathly ill and bed-ridden…. The devotees were at their wits end how to help, and so they finally pleaded with their Gurudeva asking him what to do to relieve his suffering.”⁷

“Finally…Prabhupada opened his eyes and begged them in a choked voice to please bring Kunja Da…At that time Kunja Da was working at the Calcutta post office to help raise money for his Gurudeva's preaching. In fact, it was Kunja Da who met Srila Saraswati Thakura while he was a bhajan-anandi and helped him to come out and start preaching. He also helped Srila Saraswati Thakura carry the corpse of Srila Gaura Kishore Dasa Babaji Maharaja to the current samadhi in Mayapur.”⁷

“A devotee was sent to bring Kunja Da, who immediately left his duties at the post office and returned to the Math. As soon as Kunja Da entered the sick room of Srila Saraswati Thakura, the great Acharya sat up with opened arms. Kunja Da ran into the arms of his Gurudeva who embraced him tightly. The other devotees (including Bon Maharaja) were astounded to see the face of their Lion Guru resting on the shoulder of Kunja Da with profuse tears pouring from his eyes onto the body of Kunjabihari Dasa. And Kunjabihari Prabhu was also weeping and trembling as he hugged his great master. This tearful embrace lasted what seemed like a long time. And after that Srila Saraswati Thakura was better…. This is one of the many reasons why so many devotees sided with Kunjabihari dasa.”⁷

However, he did not appoint any particular successor acharya. He had often remarked the acharya is self-effulgent. Srila Prabhupada had said, “Each disciple is considered to be a math,” and “They are not my disciple; they are guru.” It can be said that through these comments he appointed all disciples to be guru with the following instruction: “All of you please work together to preach the message of Rüpa and Raghunätha with great enthusiasm.”

Therefore, the initial time after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur contained some level of uncertainty, with different opinions arising concerning how the mission would continue.

“There was some tension between two groups: One headed by Kunja Babu, the other by Ananta Vasudeva. Kunja Babu said, ‘Unless we (meaning him and his followers) collect money, you cannot do all that you are doing. You're just sitting and writing books on the order of Srila Prabhupada.’‘Unless there is this vani seva, this preaching, by the method of making transcendental literature, the vani of Srila Prabhupada, all your collecting money is useless.’ One party consisted of Ananta Vasudeva, Sundarananda Vidyavinoda, and others, and the other Kunja Babu and others. Now Kunja Babu's party told the other party, ‘You should also go for collection. We're collecting and you're simply sitting and writing.’ But Ananta Vasudeva's party said, ‘No. We're writing on the order of Srila Prabhupada.’ Srila Prabhupada said that one party is doing vani seva and the other is doing vapu seva, and he wrote an article in the Gauriya magazine, entitled Vani and Vapu."⁴

There was an erudite group of devotees working in the publications department. These devotees had stayed close to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati whether he was in Mayapur or Calcutta and did not preach outside to the public. This group included Ananta Vasudeva Brahmachari, Pranavanda Brahmacari, Sundarananda Vidyavinoda brahmachari, and Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaja, who had replaced Bon Maharaja in London.¹⁵

Thus here were two factions that had emerged over time, the collecting and preaching side, and the intellectual writing side. “To the party raising money, he said, ‘Yes you raise money. That is a good thing.’ He wanted to encourage them also, but he said, ‘Do not disturb those who are distributing the vani. The money should be for preaching the vani.’ Both sides would complain to him. For instance, Sundarananda Vidyavinoda (the editor of the Gauriya magazine) would come and complain, saying, ‘You have made me the editor of this magazine, but they are not giving money for its publication.’”

Ananta Vasudeva Brahmachari was considered the most erudite disciple. Sometimes Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati would begin a sentence, and Ananta Vasudeva prabhu would finish it. At other times, Srila Prabhupada would finish speaking on a topic, and he would say, “What now, Vasudeva?”

Ananta Vasudeva came from an auspicious linage. The noted Radha Govinda Babaji was the father of both Bhakti Pradip Tirtha Maharaja and Ananta Vasudeva.” ⁴

“Sridhar Maharaja was in the party of Ananta Vasudeva…but he was not the only one. With the exception of a few people like Bon Maharaja who were always independent…most of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati’s disciples aligned with Ananta Vasudeva over…Kunja Babu, who was seen by most to be nothing more than a manager, not a spiritual leader…. Kunja had close followers, and with good reason. He was one of Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's first disciples and participated in the early formation of the Math. He was a good businessman and he pushed Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati to undertake preaching activities, organized the first Calcutta center, etc.”⁴

“Ananta Vasudeva was a younger brother of Bhakti Pradipa Tirtha, a disciple of Bhaktivinoda Thakur [initiated 1910] who was Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati’s first sannyasi. He [Ananta Vasudeva] was a brilliant scholar who also had organizational talents. He was Prabhupada's amanuensis [a person who writes down the words of another] and a leading figure on the publication of Prabhupada's books. The reason he was not a sannyasi was probably because of these responsibilities. The Math (or at least the sannyasis) as a whole voted democratically that Ananta Vasudeva should be made acharya. This included Sridhar Maharaja. When Kunja Babu and his followers rebelled, the shock was felt throughout the Math. Our Prabhupada, who was…far from the halls of Gaudiya Math power…nevertheless was a supporter of Ananta Vasudeva at the beginning. Sridhar Maharaja and others left the Gaudiya Math not so much because of the internal friction, but because of a deep felt need to express their individuality and to make their own disciples in the intimacy of their own organization. Our Prabhupada supported this effort as is proved by his working cooperatively with Sridhar Maharaja in the 40's and then later with Kesava Maharaja.

 

 

Actually Sridhar Maharaja claimed that he was reluctant to support Ananta Vasudeva as acarya and did not do so at first. Later some leading sannyasis came to him and told, "Maharaja if you do not put the weight of your endoresment behind Vasudeva Prabhu, then the Mission of our Gurudeva will splinder into myriad factions." Then he claimed that he did so with reluctance. At the end of Vasudeva Prabhu's reign as so-called acarya after his affairs became somewhat known, he is said to have abused many of his godbrothers including Sridhar Maharaja, their only offense being that they wanted to know the truth.

[Vigraha]

 

Remember the shooting incident in Mayapur in 1977? Iskcon property was attacked by the locals because Bhavs molested a local kid .

 

What a lot of nonsense, get your facts right! In 1977 the local Muslims attacked the Mayapur temple after Nitai Chand dasa beat up one them for stealing, it had nothing to do with what your on about. Some of the attacking Muslims were shot and killed

[Kulapavana]

 

What a lot of nonsense, get your facts right! In 1977 the local Muslims attacked the Mayapur temple after Nitai Chand dasa beat up one them for stealing, it had nothing to do with what your on about. Some of the attacking Muslims were shot and killed

 

This is story these two pedophiles invented to cover up their nefarious activities and it became yet another Iskcon myth.

[Kulapavana]

http://www.hare-krishna.org/articles/178/1/HH-Gaura-Govinda-Maharaja-and-Bhavananda-Swami-An-Interesting-Contrast-in-GBC-Policies/

 

read there a little bit about your 'heroes'

[Vigraha]

 

http://www.hare-krishna.org/articles/178/1/HH-Gaura-Govinda-Maharaja-and-Bhavananda-Swami-An-Interesting-Contrast-in-GBC-Policies/

 

read there a little bit about your 'heroes'

 

Hey they are certainly not MY heroes, you are

[bhaktajan]

 

. . . Srila Prabhupada ... put Vrindaban and Navadwip on the map. It is Srila Prabhupada who gave life to Vrindaban. . . .

 

I have been watching DVDs of Srila Prabhupada--and just last night I realized that the 1972 Lecture I was watching required me and all other devotees to wait 36 years to view.

 

I'd really like to mention two subtle things I have notice in Srila Prabhupada's behavior.

 

1) Sometimes he chokes up with emotion --but 99% of the time that he does, it is almost un-discernable by a viewer unless he is aware of the mellow (rasa) that is occuring --such as in item 2 below:

 

2) An old, wise, and, advanced holy man, unsure yet that destiny would be on his side[?], leaves the security of his home town to journey 12,000 Miles alone to fullfill a 40 year old request from his mentor.

He succeeds to such an extent that each and every moment that transpired during his adventure was a "marvel".

So much success was achieved by this monk that he had to constantly restrain his jubilation lest he be consider not grave.

 

.......................................................................................

So, my point is that Swamiji [A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami] was doing superhuman work and he knew it and was aware of it--this is the kind of amrita that cannot be & and had not been relished & still now has not been relished by anyone, nor can it be match by others, and he knew it to be so. This is what I realize Srila Prabhupada is experiencing.

 

He was going where not other Swami had gone before--and he was keeping a "Poker-face" through-out.

 

Those devotees who were present and adjacent to him when he stood and danced certainly witnessed the highest of good fortune and the highest platform that a sannyas could ever aspire to.

[cbrahma]

 

yes, it is their over-inflated ego that gets in the way. "my guru is the best. he is everything. everybody else is nothing."

 

that is why shastras sometimes recommend that we hide our guru, and hide our istha deva. so that the demon of our false ego will not use them against us.

Yup guru politics - much the driver of the GM disciples with all their 'living' guru campaigning.

[Beggar]

 

Yup guru politics - much the driver of the GM disciples with all their 'living' guru campaigning.

 

Right and Radhanatha Maharaja and Jayapataka Maharaja have thousands of disciples because their disciples never canvas or campaign for new followers.

It sounds like a double standard to me. Talk about an agenda, Several months ago cbrahma was on a mission to smash everyone's faith in Hari, guru and vaisnava. But now that his ego system has flipped over to Mr. Prabhupada-Onlyite (except for Jesus Christ) he wants to satisfy his monster ego by blaspheming the devotees who are most itimately related to the diksa line of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. These guys are so busy hurling offenses that they have no time to actually read Prabhupada's books. Or even if they do look at the words on the page their offensive mentalities block any chance of them digesting what they read. Oh, BTW, this is why a conditioned practitioner needs the association of a real guru and real sadhus at every step of the way. The Lord works in mysterious ways, so actually cbrahma is one big advertisement for why one needs a guru.

[suchandra]

 

But now that his ego system has flipped over to Mr. Prabhupada-Onlyite (except for Jesus Christ) he wants to satisfy his monster ego by blaspheming the devotees who are most itimately related to the diksa line of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

Better you present logic and reason instead of attacking members.

Makes you look more respectable.

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."

[Vigraha]

 

 

Here are two stories of devotees trying to sincerely understand their past in ISKCON

 

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

 

I can never forgive myself for not speaking out against a crooked and manipulative sannyasi many years ago.

 

He eventually kicked me out of ISKCON’s because he knew that I knew.

 

Later he destroyed the lives of many devotees. Some of these devotees told me that I had the responsibility to warn them, because I was the one who introduced them to Krsna Consciousness.

 

I did not speak out because I had no hard evidence to present to others, and I was afraid that perhaps I am seeing it from a wrong perspective.

 

I also did not want to shatter the tender faith of these new devotees.

He was a very clever man, too. He knew I had a strong sense of honor and he made me promise I will not "drag down others with my maya".

 

Later he tried to ruin my reputation by spreading vicious lies among the devotees who were shocked that I was kicked out. It was a mess...

 

He even tried to take away my service of translating Prabhupada's books.

 

Fortunately Harikesa did not listen to him on that account. I was living alone, working full time, following strict sadhana, and translating Bhagavatam for several hours every day.

I hope he has changed, because he is now a guru and a GBC in Iskcon

 

I am trying to encourage the new devotees to take inspiration from ANY and ALL of these great teachers.

All of these books are valuable and precious.

 

I do not care which camp they join, or not join, and whose line will be more prominent in the future, as long as Mahaprabhu's mission is growing.

 

The new generation joining now is much more open to that vision. I see it everywhere.

 

It is so painful to watch devotees who have been in the movement for several decades and still have this intense 'party spirit', to the point of deriding truly remarkable Vaishnavas for not fitting their narrow vision of what KC should be.

 

Like they have not grown above such petty designations.

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Unknown Author

 

 

Back then in the 1980s, we had the 'frog in the well' mentality, puffed up with the little knowledge we had, especially Ramai Swami, he thought he new everything, but now we can see how blind we all were back then, Ramai Swami had no idea how to lead and protect the lives of others.

<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>He did not know how to deal with or handle so many basic issues he new about, he new me better than I new myself at the time but still had no idea how too deal with me or anyone else for that matter.

His innocent simplicity and conviction, that he only had good intentions in mind, had really convinced him he was trying his best to help myself and many others. And he was.

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>These 'good intentions' went on like this for years.

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>In all fairness and honesty, he just did not have the 'mature vision' back then to properly lead and protect others from putting themselves and others in danger. He new all along what was going on with many devotees, yet did nothing do to stop it due to his immaturity as a leader.

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>He just did not know how a REAL leader or teacher should act due to his youthful naivety. There was no plan on his behalf to cover-up anything or cheat anyone, there was no deceit, he was just too spiritually and materially immature to know what to do.

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>He was only 27 years old when he took sannyas at Mayapur in 1981, but like many others, he became proud and very arrogant as the years went on. He had convinced himself he new everything when he new nothing!

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>

Due to such pride, to criticize him would only attract the wrath of him and his 'boys' to break your spirit with fear tactics, 'you cannot find fault in such an advanced devotee of the Lord like His Holiness Ramai Swami Maharaj, you offenses will send you to hell', and put you in back your place below their feet as a useless dependant soul!

 

Like Bhavananda, Ramai Swami became intoxicated by all the worship and began foolishly believing he was a great devotee who should NEVER be questioned and is still that way today. He becomes very offended by anyone who questions his authority and motives, then belittles you to other devotees for daring to question his authority.

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>In this way my self esteem was so eroded, always being told, 'your out of it', 'your so far down there' that I was too insecure to not go along with it all, after all, ISKCON was my only family.

 

The point is clear here, he and other Godbrothers always new exactly how fallen I was and always told me so, but never really did nothing and just let things go on because of their innocents, simplicity and blindness due to ignorance.

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>Paradoxically in this way, due to this default, I was so very fortunate to organise and manage the most successful Gurukuli project in Australian ISKCON history in 1986-7 - but that is a truly wonderful and sad story to be told at a later date.

It's amazing how sometimes failure, embarrassment and the feeing of being totally helpless becomes the pillar of commitment, determination and success, as it did with me in coming up with ideas to help the international effort to free the Soviet Hare Krishnas from persecution and imprisonment.

 

This was done with very sincere and helpless prayers to Lord Caitanya and Prabhupada in 1986, so they could one day soon attain their freedom to follow their Religion in the Soviet Union, and freely chant Hare Krishna in every town and village in Russia and all the surrounding states of the Union.

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[realist]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by krsna

It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. -- Chinese proverb

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->I like that, thank you prabhu.

 

In other words we can lament and wollow in all the worlds or ISKCON's problems and pollute our consciousness.

Or we can get right into our own Sadhana of hearing and chanting Hare Krsna and become fixed up enough to tell others ONLY about Krsna, giving others the only help they really need

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

Yup guru politics - much the driver of the GM disciples with all their 'living' guru campaigning.

 

Srila Prabhupada very much preached in the line of "living guru" and "current link", often making sure his disciples did not read anything other than his writings. Was that guru politics? Or merely a concern for his naive and immature disciples? I do not think that any GM gurus placed similar restrictions on their disciples.

[Beggar]

 

But now that his ego system has flipped over to Mr. Prabhupada-Onlyite (except for Jesus Christ) he wants to satisfy his monster ego by blaspheming the devotees who are most itimately related to the diksa line of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

 

Better you present logic and reason instead of attacking members.

Makes you look more respectable.

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."

 

I have previously supplied evidence by quoting passages from cbrahma's

posts from a few months back that show that he was at that time displaying very shaky faith in the entire process of Krsna Consciousness.

It is also a fact that currently cbrahma is attacking the historical standing of all of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers and their good names while at the same time advocating his faith in Jesus Christ. He also continues to scoff at the entire process of Gaudiya Vaisnava diksa. It is my idea from experience over the years that such a mentality is to be abandoned for it is certainly unfavorable for real Krsna bhakti.

[AncientMariner]

What I would like to know is which side is ultimately going to win this debate? I have heard from debaters that the "Srila Prabhupada onlyites" are dying off or their followings dwindling but then I have also read on this forum that said stuff like the same things that happened in Iskcon are happening in the Narayana Maharaja camp like people trying to line up to exploit the position of guru and money etc. So it is hard for me to tell which side is winning. I am just curious to try and gauge who is going to become the most influential teacher of Krsna Consciousness in the years to come. Is it going to be Prabhupadas books or Narayana Maharajas books or some disciple of Naryana Maharaja etc.? Or possibly are these divisions going to remain for a long time to come?

[Kulapavana]

 

I am just curious to try and gauge who is going to become the most influential teacher of Krsna Consciousness in the years to come. Is it going to be Prabhupadas books or Narayana Maharajas books or some disciple of Naryana Maharaja etc.? Or possibly are these divisions going to remain for a long time to come?

 

I am trying to encourage the new devotees to take inspiration from ANY and ALL of these great teachers. All of these books are valuable and precious. I do not care which camp they join, or not join, and whose line will be more prominent in the future, as long as Mahaprabhu's mission is growing.

[AncientMariner]

 

I am trying to encourage the new devotees to take inspiration from ANY and ALL of these great teachers. All of these books are valuable and precious. I do not care which camp they join, or not join, and whose line will be more prominent in the future, as long as Mahaprabhu's mission is growing.

 

I like your vision of Krishna Consciousness as expressed in your post.

[Kulapavana]

 

I like your vision of Krishna Consciousness as expressed in your post.

 

The new generation joining now is much more open to that vision. I see it everywhere. It is so painful to watch devotees who have been in the movement for several decades and still have this intense 'party spirit', to the point of deriding truly remarkable Vaishnavas for not fitting their narrow vision of what KC should be. Like they have not grown above such petty designations.

[AncientMariner]

 

I am trying to encourage the new devotees to take inspiration from ANY and ALL of these great teachers. All of these books are valuable and precious. I do not care which camp they join, or not join, and whose line will be more prominent in the future, as long as Mahaprabhu's mission is growing.

 

Based on this wonderful post I officially declare that for here and forevermore THEIST is the winner of this debate.

[Beggar]

 

I am trying to encourage the new devotees to take inspiration from ANY and ALL of these great teachers. All of these books are valuable and precious. I do not care which camp they join, or not join, and whose line will be more prominent in the future, as long as Mahaprabhu's mission is growing.

 

Bravo and jaya! This is the only position a sane devotee can take.

[Beggar]

 

Based on this wonderful post I officially declare that for here and forevermore THEIST is the winner of this debate.

 

Somewhere, someone very important is smiling,

 

 

 

[AncientMariner]

[cbrahma]

 

Srila Prabhupada very much preached in the line of "living guru" and "current link", often making sure his disciples did not read anything other than his writings. Was that guru politics? Or merely a concern for his naive and immature disciples? I do not think that any GM gurus placed similar restrictions on their disciples.

That is a total misreading. He always claimed vani superior to vapu.

Furthermore in GV sampradaya, siska is more important than diksa.

[cbrahma]

 

What I would like to know is which side is ultimately going to win this debate? I have heard from debaters that the "Srila Prabhupada onlyites" are dying off or their followings dwindling but then I have also read on this forum that said stuff like the same things that happened in Iskcon are happening in the Narayana Maharaja camp like people trying to line up to exploit the position of guru and money etc. So it is hard for me to tell which side is winning. I am just curious to try and gauge who is going to become the most influential teacher of Krsna Consciousness in the years to come. Is it going to be Prabhupadas books or Narayana Maharajas books or some disciple of Naryana Maharaja etc.? Or possibly are these divisions going to remain for a long time to come?

You have to find the critical differences between these self-defined camps. The most important difference is on the subject of 'living' guru. That topic has been hashed out on some other thread. It wouldn't even be hashable if it were obvious that Prabhupada expected a living successor- guru acarya to be promoted. Of course the GM disciples will swear that was Prahbupada's teaching, but it isn't. They insist because it creates a dependency on

1) diska

2) the ISKCON guru system, which was architected and approved initially by Sridhar Maharaja.

It is more in keeping with the religiosity of traditional Hinduism.

[cbrahma]

 

The new generation joining now is much more open to that vision. I see it everywhere. It is so painful to watch devotees who have been in the movement for several decades and still have this intense 'party spirit', to the point of deriding truly remarkable Vaishnavas for not fitting their narrow vision of what KC should be. Like they have not grown above such petty designations.

Of course the more time passes, the easier it is to revise the history and the facts of that history. But those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. It would appear in the short term that the ones who want to minimize Prabhupada just as 'another' guru among many (the 'many' being them) will prevail.

[AncientMariner]

 

You have to find the critical differences between these self-defined camps. The most important difference is on the subject of 'living' guru. That topic has been hashed out on some other thread. It wouldn't even be hashable if it were obvious that Prabhupada expected a living successor- guru acarya to be promoted. Of course the GM disciples will swear that was Prahbupada's teaching, but it isn't. They insist because it creates a dependency on

1) diska

2) the ISKCON guru system, which was architected and approved initially by Sridhar Maharaja.

 

 

I gotta admit that I would very much appreciate it if my choice is to read only or mainly the books of Prabhupada that I would not be defined as a "Prabhupada onlyite".