When all are doing wrong, be the first to do right or just keep silent. Yes???

[krsna]

When all are doing wrong, be the first to do right, or just keep silent.

 

Would that be the most KRSNA Conscious thing to do?

 

What examples of doing right amidst wrong-ful doing people are there?

 

When all are loudly speaking lies silence is deafening...

[theist]

Yes, or one can speak from a platform of admitting one's fault also and encouraging fellow seekers on path to God.

 

Something like two people are lost in the woods. One is starting to weaken in the effort and wants to give up the effort to find home and the other exhorts him to dig down and keep up the search. This is friendship and brotherhood.

 

What is absent is a self-righteous attitude.

[cbrahma]

Very wise and inspirational. Thank you.

[AncientMariner]

 

Yes, or one can speak from a platform of admitting one's fault also and encouraging fellow seekers on path to God.

 

Something like two people are lost in the woods. One is starting to weaken in the effort and wants to give up the effort to find home and the other exhorts him to dig down and keep up the search. This is friendship and brotherhood.

 

What is absent is a self-righteous attitude.

 

 

If you are saying what I think you are saying this post was really cool and even if you are not saying what I think you are saying I still find this post to be very profound.

[krsna]

I (conditioned soul, jiva)'m in illusion (maya) therefore totally unfit to speak the truth (param satyam dhimahi, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam) to your face, especially since you have no faith (sraddha) in my words anyway.

 

Who shall unequivocally speak the truth - boldly, uncompromisingly and fearlessly - to one and all, without consideration of any political correctness?

 

 

 

[Vigraha]

 

When all are doing wrong, be the first to do right, or just keep silent??.

 

Well, the answer is no.

 

In this day and age and in this time and place, if I am struggling and ARE doing wrong, and then if I see others also doing wrong, then regardless of my fallen state, I will NOT remain silent, I will strongly and aggressively, if need be, speak out against the same things that have degraded me.

 

Frankly the above comment and many scriptual quotes can unfortunately be twisted and resemble a fascist statement to control the thoughtful thinking of others because it is a clever way to get others to never critize their leaders.

 

Do you really think that because one is not perfect and fallen, one should ignore all the faults in any other devotees or leaders and remain silent by not exposing and telling others about their struggle with Maya?

 

Maybe this is why so few spoke up in the past in early ISKCON when they saw wrong and lies, that back many believed as truth, going on.

 

In all fairness and honesty, the most probably reason very few did not speak or even recognise the truth all those years ago is,, we were too young, inexperienced and immature to know any better. When Prabhupada left us in 1977, the average age of the devotees was 26 years old

 

Therefore, many felt they were too fallen, useless and affraid to speak out about what little truth they new and expose the childish lies and difficult struggles of other very young devotees, who were also still learning how to be leaders and Gurus.

 

So they remained silent and lived the sentimental lie because they did not know any better, and look what happened - The hard way to learn a lesson.

 

In other words we were not smart enough to learn through knowledge of the Veda, we had to learn the hard way by trial and era

 

It was simply inexperience and immaturity these things happened, their was no plan of deceit by anyone in the Temple, at least not in Australia and certainly not by me even though I did struggle as revealed in a letter Prabhupada sent me

 

In all fairness there was an innocents back then that was in all the devotees because when one is young, as we all were back then, our ideals were very strong, we were very young and inexperienced in our attempts to understand and follow an age old religion.

Anyway, such a comment as "When all are doing wrong, be the first to do right, or just keep silent" also reminds me of an old Prabhupada disciple back in the 70s, who is actually a very nice old grandfather devotee today. But back then he always said such naive comments due to his youthful immaturity to just force you to do as he said. With his infamous saying 'SURENDER PRABHOOO' which really means to him, just do what I tell you to do and don't argue, question it or think.about it

In 1971 every time I touched the mrdunga he would harshly say

"Leave that drum alone, you don't know how to play it, so don't touch it"

My obvious reply to this devotee was

"If I don't touch the mrdunga drum, how am I going to learn?"

He just ignored me, so when he was not around, I practised on the drum anyway, ignoring his request and taught myself.

So Prabhupada arrived a few months later and lead the kirtan in the Temple room, and yes I was playing mrdunga while the devotee who previously would not let me play the drum, was cooking in the kitchen.

While cooking another devotee said to him,

"Well it looks like he can touch the drum now, seeing he can play it"

There is a point and lesson in all this, don't let anyone tell you what you can and cannot do if it shastically does not make sense!! Which means one has to learn and study Srila Prabhupada’s books so one is not treated like a mushroom by anyone, aspiring devotees or karmis

And certainly never ever remain silent when you see things are not quite right, no matter how fallen you are.

The old immature ways and sentimental ideas in ISKCON have to be out grown if we are to learn and go forward instead of remaining stagnant within the realms of our pioneering immaturity years

 

HARE KRSNA

[krsna]

Speak the Truth when all are speaking lies?

Stick out your neck and make your self unpopular with all the people-pleasers by speaking the truth which is often unpalatable and un-pleasing to them (you'll become persona-non-grata, you'll lose all your so-called friends).

 

There is nothing more revolutionary than to speak the truth save and except perhaps to live the truth at the risk of your own life...

 

Who amongst us shall pay that high price of putting their mortal frame on the altar of Truth, by becoming a preacher of Truth (KRSNA)?

[Vigraha]

 

Speak the Truth when all are speaking lies?

In all fairness and honesty, the most probably reason very few did not speak or even recognise the truth all those years ago is, we were too young, inexperienced and immature to know any better. When Prabhupada left us in 1977, the average age of the devotees was 26 years old

 

Therefore, many felt they were too fallen, useless and affraid to speak out about what little truth they new and expose the childish lies and difficult struggles of other very young devotees, who were also still learning how to be leaders and Gurus.

 

So they remained silent and lived the sentimental lie because they did not know any better, and look what happened - The hard way to learn a lesson.

 

In other words we were not smart enough to learn through knowledge of the Veda, we had to learn the hard way by trial and era

 

It was simply inexperience and immaturity these things happened, their was no plan of deceit by anyone in the Temple.

 

In all fairness, there was an special innocents back then that was in all the devotees because, when we were young, as we all were back then, our ideals and dreams of a new world order of Lord Caitanya were very strong, we were actually very young, innocent and inexperienced in our attempts to understand and follow an age old religion.

 

Maybe this is why so few spoke up in the past in early ISKCON when they saw wrong and lies going on, they simply did not know any better.

 

Many felt they were too fallen, usesless and affraid to speak out the the little truth they did understand and expose the childish lies and difficult struggles of other very young devotees, who were still learning how to be leaders and Gurus?

It was simply inexperience and immaturity these things happened, their was no plan of deceit by anyone in the Temple including myself.

 

However, without the flowery poetry in beautuful words of a great devotee of the Lord, which are nice, my point is simple and for the simple minded -

 

Never ever remain silent when you see things are not quite right, no matter how fallen you are.

 

Hare Krsna

[gHari]

 

When all are doing wrong, be the first to do right, or just keep silent.

 

Would that be the most KRSNA Conscious thing to do?

 

What examples of doing right amidst wrong-ful doing people are there?

 

When all are loudly speaking lies silence is deafening...

 

Prahlada

[cbrahma]

I have heard that a devotee is silent. But silence I believe to mean he only speaks of spiritual matters, ie Krsna.

Let's not forget the dictum that when somebody is doing wrong - silence means consent.

[Svarupa]

 

I have heard that a devotee is silent.

 

But silence I believe to mean he only speaks of spiritual matters, ie Krsna.

 

Let's not forget the dictum that when somebody is doing wrong - silence means consent.

 

Very true, a great saying

[bhaktajan]

 

. . . This is friendship and brotherhood.

 

What is absent is a self-righteous attitude.

 

When a house is burning--we must alert others to vacate the burning house. --this is the metaphor I always thought of in regard to the above posting.

 

"What is absent is a self-righteous attitude."

 

I know what you mean in your above statement [vs. being un-gentle and haughty toward other devotees].

 

We must write to those who are leaders and explain our grievances [regarding being a Yoga Practitioner of so many decades, and thus, how society is Cheating each other, causing war and violence through meat eating, how lust is created by old men in power among innocents, how the best efforts of society and medical researching and goverment policies have a track record of cheating irregardless of political leanings, etc. The back log of potential grievances is yet un-tapped by the best of the best thoughtful citizens]:

 

We must write to:

our politicians,

world leaders,

United Nations represantatives,

Local Church leaders,

Civic organization Leaders,

Business Executives,

Collage professors,

Newspaper Editors,

TV & radio Journalists,

Local Doctors, and even,

long lived near & distant relatives --and tell them of our discontent.

 

We represent a Brahminical view-point and all that is neccessary is to make our opinion known ['whatever a great man (person) does, common men follow'].

 

It is not needed to take actions beyond ones abilities --all that is needed that alternative view-points exist.

 

The "open-book knowledge of the Gita, Bhagavatam, Prasadam preparations" are available to all, but most people don't know it even exists.

 

Think of a retired Iowa School teacher who writes that she is very 'diappointed' with the neglect of the Memorial in the Town Square --the opening statements in such a letter will very likely allude to the years of tenure or seniority that the writer possesses before stating her grievance.

 

Try it without being offensive. Use tact & diplomacy. But do chastise with out any physical threats.

[theist]

 

I know what you mean in your above statement [vs. being un-gentle and haughty toward other devotees].

 

No not just other devotees...everyone.

[Bishadi]

 

Who shall unequivocally speak the truth - boldly, uncompromisingly and fearlessly - to one and all, without consideration of any political correctness?

from the position of this ‘I’…..

to experience the choice, of such intent for the truth; can exist within each; by knowledge

each can be such intent with the compassion for others over the self.

To understand that the life of each can exist by supporting ‘life to continue,’ in choice; represents good.

 

 

When all are doing wrong, be the first to do right, or just keep silent.

 

Would that be the most KRSNA Conscious thing to do?

 

 

 

Since consciousness experiences compassion and consciousness has no beginning or ending within existence; to observe the pain that can be reduced of other conscious persons with knowledge; the compassion to share the defined knowledge, begins Peace to the total of existence.

Within the humility of ‘not knowing’ and then not acting, there is wisdom; no adversity to existence.

But there is an old set of wisdom sharing the act of doing; if the bowl is dirty, wash it

If there is purpose of good, then act for the completion.

[Kulapavana]

I can never forgive myself for not speaking out against a crooked and manipulative sannyasi many years ago. He eventually kicked me out of Iskcon because he knew that I knew. Later he destroyed the lives of many devotees. Some of these devotees told me that I had the responsibility to warn them, because I was the one who introduced them to Krsna Consciousness.

[krsna]

It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

 

-- Chinese proverb

[realist]

 

It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. -- Chinese proverb

 

I like that, thank you prabhu. In other words we can lament wollow in all the worlds or ISKCON's problems and pollute our consciousness.

 

Or we can get right into our own Sadhana and become fixed up enough to tell others ONLY about Krsna and Lord Caitanya, giving others the only help and understanding they really need

[Bishadi]

 

It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

 

-- Chinese proverb

 

 

 

when understanding is equal, Peace exists

 

 

 

my brother of peace, thank you

 

 

 

r u ready for the next chapter upon the earth?

[tackleberry]

 

I can never forgive myself for not speaking out against a crooked and manipulative sannyasi many years ago. He eventually kicked me out of Iskcon because he knew that I knew. Later he destroyed the lives of many devotees. Some of these devotees told me that I had the responsibility to warn them, because I was the one who introduced them to Krsna Consciousness.

 

May I ask why you didn't speak out? Was it due to loyalty? Or, was there pressure? Sorry if it's too sensitive an issue.

[Kulapavana]

 

May I ask why you didn't speak out? Was it due to loyalty? Or, was there pressure? Sorry if it's too sensitive an issue.

 

I did not speak out because I had no hard evidence to present to others, and I was afraid that perhaps I am seeing it from a wrong perspective. I also did not want to shatter the tender faith of these new devotees.

 

He was a very clever man, too. He knew I had a strong sense of honor and he made me promise I will not "drag down others with my maya". Later he tried to ruin my reputation by spreading vicious lies among the devotees who were shocked that I was kicked out. It was a mess... He even tried to take away my service of translating Prabhupada's books. Fortunately Harikesa did not listen to him on that account. I was living alone, working full time, following strict sadhana, and translating Bhagavatam for several hours every day.

 

I hope he has changed, because he is now a guru and a GBC in Iskcon.

[tackleberry]

 

I did not speak out because I had no hard evidence to present to others, and I was afraid that perhaps I am seeing it from a wrong perspective. I also did not want to shatter the tender faith of these new devotees.

 

He was a very clever man, too. He knew I had a strong sense of honor and he made me promise I will not "drag down others with my maya". Later he tried to ruin my reputation by spreading vicious lies among the devotees who were shocked that I was kicked out. It was a mess... He even tried to take away my service of translating Prabhupada's books. Fortunately Harikesa did not listen to him on that account. I was living alone, working full time, following strict sadhana, and translating Bhagavatam for several hours every day.

 

I hope he has changed, because he is now a guru and a GBC in Iskcon.

 

Sorry to hear about your bad experiences. How did you recover from all this, how long did it take, did any of your friends help you out? I've been hearing these things about iskcon all the time, is this always the case? I mean, the big guys trying make life miserable for the little ones?

 

And if this person is still around as you say, it seems as if no one's done anything about it. Unless these people are stopped, there won't be a lesson for others to learn, in which case these atrocities will persist.

[Kulapavana]

 

Sorry to hear about your bad experiences. How did you recover from all this, how long did it take, did any of your friends help you out? I've been hearing these things about iskcon all the time, is this always the case? I mean, the big guys trying make life miserable for the little ones?

 

And if this person is still around as you say, it seems as if no one's done anything about it. Unless these people are stopped, there won't be a lesson for others to learn, in which case these atrocities will persist.

 

It took a very long time to recover. Years. Some of my devotee friends helped me a lot, by secretly visiting me or allowing me to visit the centers they maintained (I was banned from visiting temples). Even today big puffed up leaders can make a lot of trouble for the common devotees, but back then it was a completely totalitarian system.

 

As to making things better for the future: IMO the key is education of rank and file devotees as to what the real KC should look like, and training them to think for themselves and trust their heart and gut instincts. The top manipulators have the power only because the rank and file devotees LET THEM have that power.

[cbrahma]

 

May I ask why you didn't speak out? Was it due to loyalty? Or, was there pressure? Sorry if it's too sensitive an issue.

There are so many reasons for silent acquiescence in ISKCON.

 

First, there is the material dependancy. If you don't have anywhere to go, no means of support you will be afraid of ending up on the street.

 

Second, there is philosophical manipulation. 'One should not criticize senior godbrothers' 'Vaisnava apharada' etc...

 

Although there are other reasons, those two were good enough to cover years of corruption before the top blew off.

[shvu]

I recall reading Prabhupada during his last years once said or wrote "demons have entered the Krishna consciousness movement".

 

Perhaps he was helpless at that point to do something about it. But since he communicated this discovery, why did this not serve as a wakeup call for others?

 

Cheers

[Kulapavana]

 

I recall reading Prabhupada during his last years once said or wrote "demons have entered the Krishna consciousness movement".

 

Perhaps he was helpless at that point to do something about it. But since he communicated this discovery, why did this not serve as a wakeup call for others?

 

I think Prabhupada had so much "fatherly affection bias" for his disciples and so much faith in the purifying nature of KC process that he was not acting on such observations.

 

In the hindsight, there were very ominous signs in 1975-77 that the movement is in trouble yet no major structural reforms were ordered by Prabhupada. I disagree that he was helpless at that point - he was very much in complete control, and if he ordered for changes to be implemented, they would have been carried out. Instead he issued an order that current GBC's are to hold their position for life (unless they have deviated) and that new GBCs are to be chosen by the existing GBC members. In this way the status quo was preserved.