theist Posted May 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2008 I never knew that both Theist and Radheyradhey would start to fight. This seems to be crossing the border of a difference of opinion and into a fight. A kind reminder to everyone that this is a spiritual forum not a bickering forum. You may not agree with each other, but it proper to respect each other as Vaishnavas. Thank you. indulekhadasi There is no fight, only disagreement. On this issue there is no ground to compromise. Hrydayanada wanted Iskcon to introduce gay marriages in Iskcon. This sort of deviant mentality must be challenged strongly. Prabhupada clearly wrote it is demonic for a male to desire a male in that way so it has no place in his Iskcon. Homosexuals can chant and dance, eat prasadam and read Bhagavad-gita so what is the problem? My rejecting the homosex lifestyle has no effect on their ability to engage in spiritual practice so why in the hell are they pushing their lifestyle onto everyone? No one wants to hear about their sexual practices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2008 There are several researchers that have shown some base brain differences Simon LeVay being one of the most often attacked. There is also the common sense factor in play man+woman=children man+man or woman+woman = end of species. Survival of species is one of the core,basic, primal functions of the brain and when this doesn`t exist one can pretty easily assume that the brain is not working properly. Good points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 There are several researchers that have shown some base brain differences Simon LeVay being one of the most often attacked. And there are other scientists that say that there's no difference (organically) between a homosexual's brain and a heterosexual's brain. There is also the common sense factor in play man+woman=children man+man or woman+woman = end of species. Survival of species is one of the core,basic, primal functions of the brain and when this doesn`t exist one can pretty easily assume that the brain is not working properly. Well, if having sex for pleasure alone means that someone has a brain disfunction or a disability, then there must be a huge difference organically between the brains of a couple who use birth control and a couple who don't. Or, if we want to take it even farther, a couple that wish to have children and a couple that don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samia Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Well, if having sex for pleasure alone means that someone has a brain disfunction or a disability, then there must be a huge difference organically between the brains of a couple who use birth control and a couple who don't. Or, if we want to take it even farther, a couple that wish to have children and a couple that don't. Actually we are talking attraction as well, we are talking about being attracted to same gender vs opposite gender. Split hairs all you want but male attraction to females is a brain working in its most basic way and male attraction to another male in a sexual sense is the brain misfiring period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Actually we are talking attraction as well, we are talking about being attracted to same gender vs opposite gender. Split hairs all you want but male attraction to females is a brain working in its most basic way and male attraction to another male in a sexual sense is the brain misfiring period. So... where'd you get your degree in psychology? Or, are you a neuro-surgeon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samia Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 So... where'd you get your degree in psychology? Or, are you a neuro-surgeon? A degree is hardly required to understand survival instinct and basic sexuality, we are talking about 8th grade science and a small dose of basic common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 A degree is hardly required to understand survival instinct and basic sexuality, we are talking about 8th grade science and a small dose of basic common sense. To diagnose if someone has an organic brain disorder? Wow... 8th grade students must have advanced a lot since when I was in 8th grade, if they are now able to diagnose brain disorders like that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indulekhadasi Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 I think we are all crazy in this material world, homosexual or heterosexual. We all have impure desires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 I think we are all crazy in this material world, homosexual or heterosexual. We all have impure desires. Well said, Indulekha Ji. Who are we to judge if our impurities are more pure than others' impurities just b/c we consider them more 'natural'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indulekhadasi Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Again, this does not free homosexuals from their impurities. We are ALL impure. We all have lusty desires. Therefore Theist was right. Your example about Lord Rama didn't really meet my needs, because loving the Lord is different from lusty relationships of the material world. We are all FILLED WITH IMPURITIES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Your example about Lord Rama didn't really meet my needs, because loving the Lord is different from lusty relationships of the material world. Theist asked for an example of homosexuality in one of the Lord's lilas... I wouldn't have brought it up had he not asked. But, I do agree... desire for God is nothing even comparable to earthly desire (whether hertero- or homosexual). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indulekhadasi Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 I think what he wanted was an example of two mortals in the Lord's lila that got attracted to each other (but not the the Lord, I mean getting attracted to another mortal). I don't really know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 I think what he wanted was an example of two mortals in the Lord's lila that got attracted to each other (but not the the Lord, I mean getting attracted to another mortal). I don't really know. I'm not exactly sure what he was asking for either... so I supplied him w/ that example (since there are some rather homosexual overtones in the story). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samia Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 To diagnose if someone has an organic brain disorder? Wow... 8th grade students must have advanced a lot since when I was in 8th grade, if they are now able to diagnose brain disorders like that! Diagnosis is hardly required. To make it a little easier to understand male and female coupling results in the possibility of childbirth and thus the species continues to exist. Male and male coupling will never result in childbirth which leads to the end of species. So that presents 2 options a defect or a choice and if you look at any research what so ever attraction really has very little if anything to do with choice. Since I know your next replay I will point out that male and female couples do have sex for reasons other than childbirth which is wrong in the eyes of people of faith but hardly an unnatural attraction. Quit being obstinate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indulekhadasi Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 I'm not exactly sure what he was asking for either... so I supplied him w/ that example (since there are some rather homosexual overtones in the story). In my limited understanding, that cannot be considered homosexuality. This is the natural attraction every single human being in the entire universe has for the Supreme Lord whether they are male or female. In the sastras there have been examples of people wanting to taste the Lord through their mouth and drink Him through their eyes etc. This cannot exactly be called homosexuality. This is natural love for the Lord and it occurs no matter in what body one may be in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Diagnosis is hardly required. To make it a little easier to understand male and female coupling results in the possibility of childbirth and thus the species continues to exist. Male and male coupling will never result in childbirth which leads to the end of species. So that presents 2 options a defect or a choice and if you look at any research what so ever attraction really has very little if anything to do with choice. How about it's just their preference? We can't prove it's a defect, and most would deny it's a choice... so lets just leave it at "preference". Since I know your next replay I will point out that male and female couples do have sex for reasons other than childbirth which is wrong in the eyes of people of faith but hardly an unnatural attraction. Not wrong in the eyes of all people of faith. Quit being obstinate. Give me a shastra explicitly condemning it and I will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 In my limited understanding, that cannot be considered homosexuality. This is the natural attraction every single human being in the entire universe has for the Supreme Lord whether they are male or female. In the sastras there have been examples of people wanting to taste the Lord through their mouth and drink Him through their eyes etc. This cannot exactly be called homosexuality. This is natural love for the Lord and it occurs no matter in what body one may be in. I agree... the question of sexuality should be left out of the Lord's Lilas. However, I'm not the one that asked the question in the first place... I just answered it. However, I dare say that the Lila I mentioned is just as homosexual as the Rasa Lila is heterosexual... and that the holy sages (while in the body) were just as homosexual as the Gopikas (while manifesting in bodies) were heterosexual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samia Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 How about it's just their preference? We can't prove it's a defect, and most would deny it's a choice... so lets just leave it at "preference". You asked about my education so I will ask about yours. Preference is an indication of choice thus not fitting in your argument. Also it is clearly proven it is a defect as the main reason for coupling is reproduction. Not wrong in the eyes of all people of faith. Sure, I mean Pagans believe you can spill seed and trees will grow I mean God bless them in their beliefs but most faiths preach sex for reproduction just alot of people choose to ignore that instruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 I'm not exactly sure what he was asking for either... so I supplied him w/ that example (since there are some rather homosexual overtones in the story). This was my point. THERE ARE NO HOMOSEXUAL OVERTONES IN KRISHNA LILA!!! You hear such overtones because you want them to exist but that is your particular illusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 I agree... the question of sexuality should be left out of the Lord's Lilas. However, I'm not the one that asked the question in the first place... I just answered it. However, I dare say that the Lila I mentioned is just as homosexual as the Rasa Lila is heterosexual... and that the holy sages (while in the body) were just as homosexual as the Gopikas (while manifesting in bodies) were heterosexual. This is just truly bizarre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 You asked about my education so I will ask about yours. Preference is an indication of choice thus not fitting in your argument. Also it is clearly proven it is a defect as the main reason for coupling is reproduction. I'm not the one diagnosing people with organic brain disorders! I didn't realize you had to have a degree in order to say that you're not sure if someone else w/o a degree is diagnosing a whole group of people correctly. Sure, I mean Pagans believe you can spill seed and trees will grow I mean God bless them in their beliefs but most faiths preach sex for reproduction just alot of people choose to ignore that instruction. Well, Baobabtree provided a Shastra showing that even in Vedic times people didn't just have sex to reproduce... so I think it's more up to the individual to decide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 This was my point. THERE ARE NO HOMOSEXUAL OVERTONES IN KRISHNA LILA!!! You hear such overtones because you want them to exist but that is your particular illusion. I'm not the one denying the overtones in the Rama-Lila story... you are. I'm not the one bound by the illusion that there's no such thing as homosexuality in Rama-Lila, when the example I picked showed that there clearly is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 This is just truly bizarre. How so? What do you call a group of men asking another man to make love to them? Or do you think that the sages were asexual as well as the Gopis? I mean... what's the logic behind saying that the sages that begged Lord Rama to make love to them weren't homosexual? If they weren't homosexual they would've expressed their rasa for the Lord differently. There's certainly a difference between figurative parakiya-rasa and actually begging the Incarnate Lord to make love to you. They're both Parakiya-rasa... but one's a bit more drastic and I think it certainly implies something about the devotee's sexuality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 I'm not the one denying the overtones in the Rama-Lila story... you are. I'm not the one bound by the illusion that there's no such thing as homosexuality in Rama-Lila, when the example I picked showed that there clearly is. I know you are not denying it , I clearly am. You are PROMOTING it. I am ending this back and forth with you on this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadheyRadhey108 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 I know you are not denying it , I clearly am. You are PROMOTING it. I don't see what's wrong w/ promoting something that's clearly in the Lord's Lilas I am ending this back and forth with you on this topic. Okay. I think we've both shown our views sufficiently on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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