Does liberty of free speech sometimes hurt the feelings of other devotees???

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The following is very interesting views of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's trancendental writings, deep, but some interesting Vaishnava points are made however, it does not change the fact that charismatic intelligent people can cleverly twist some of the below to bring the simple minded devotees under their control.

 

 

 

 

So if one does not want to be cheated, then we all must have a solid understanding from Prabhupada's Books.

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada - "The world stands in no need of any reformer. The world has a very competent person for guiding its minutest happenings.

The person who determines that there is scope for reform of the world, himself stands in need of reform.

The world goes on in its own perfect way. No person can deflect it even the breadth of a hair from the course chalked out for it by providence.

When we perceive any change being actually effected in the course of events of this world by the agency of any particular individual, we must know very well that the agent possesses no real power at any stage.

The agent finds himself driven forward by a force belonging to a different category from himself. The course of the world does not require to be changed by the agency of any person.

What is necessary is to change our outlook on this world.

This was done for the contemporary generation by the mercy of Sri Chaitanya. It can only be known to recipients of his mercy.

The scriptures declare that it is only necessary to listen with an open mind to the name of Krishna from the lips of a bona fide devotee.

As soon as Krishna enters the listening ear, he clears up the vision of the listener so that he no longer has any ambition of ever acting the part of a reformer of any other person, because he finds that nobody is left without the very highest guidance.

It is therefore his own reform, by the grace of God, whose supreme necessity and nature he is increasingly able to realize, by the eternally continuing mercy of the Supreme Lord.

From The Harmonist, May 1932, issue number 11. Article originally titled, “Sree Chaitanya in South India”. Pages 325-326.

Akruranatha dasa - This is a sobering bit of information. I guess this means all of my criticism and anger about how other people are doing (or neglecting) their service is totally misguided?

Was it Pundarik Vidyanidhi who got chastised (slapped) by Lord Jagannatha in a dream because he thought critically about the Lord’s pujaris having left too much starch in His clothes?

But what about those whose service really involves instructing others in how to do things (i.e., reforming them)?

Or what if there are opposing elements who might do harm to our service or to the asssets we may be deputed to protect as part of our service? Don’t we have to at least recognize the need to properly deal with such “enemies”?

Is the instruction Srila Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada giving here practical for those who are involved in carrying out responsible service?

Is this instruction meant for everyone, or is it just for uttama adhikaris (who do not distinguish between devotees, innocents and demons, but see everyone as serving more nicely than themselves?

[i actually think it is meant for everyone, even the neophyte, but I am not sure how it can be practically applied by one who lives in the world and has to deal with bad actors.]

How would we like our policemen to go around thinking no one was in need of reform? How would they protect us from the bad guys in that case?

Or is it that they are supposed to recognize that, just as the criminals are being directed by a “force belonging to a different category”, so too are the enlightened policemen in apprehending them and bringing them to justice?

This article reminds me of the story in the Bhagavatam where Dharma in the form of a bull would not name Kali yuga as his tormentor, even though King Parikshit had caught Kali red handed. Dharma said, different philosophers assert that various causes are responsible for the effects we perceive, but ultimately it is the Supreme Personality of Godhead that is the origin of everything (janmadyasya yathah)

It also reminds me of the invocation to Isopanisad, and Prabhupada’s magnificent purport. The phenomenal world, being an emanation from Krishna, is also perfectly equipped, and there is a perfect arrangement for all living beings (who are also perfect emanations). It is just our resistance to acting as His parts and parcels that prevents us from perceiving the perfection of the whole situation.

But then, why is there “transcendental anxiety”?

Proghose dasa - Yes the example of Dharma very much mirrors the mood of this essay by SBSST. We may have so many duties and issues to deal with in life but ultimately we have to be convinced that the most important thing of all, both for every living entity, and us is developing our relationship with Krsna. If we become distracted from that by getting bogged down into thinking that we can solve the social, economic, cultural and whatever other problems of the world by some other arrangement then we have fallen foul of what SBSST is highlighting in his essay.

There are many references in sastra that reflect this dynamic:

tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer - One who has forsaken his material occupations to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand, a nondevotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything SB 1.5.17

devarsi-bhutapta-nrnam pitrnam - O King, one who has given up all material duties and has taken full shelter of the lotus feet of Mukunda, who offers shelter to all, is not indebted to the demigods, great sages, ordinary living beings, relatives, friends, mankind or even one’s forefathers who have passed away. Since all such classes of living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, one who has surrendered to the Lord’s service has no need to serve such persons separately. SB 11.5.41

In other words, unless one is Krsna conscious, all his material possessions are zero, but when this zero is by the side of the Supreme One, it at once increases in value to ten. Unless situated by the side of the Supreme One, zero is always zero; one may add one hundred zeros, but the value will still remain zero. Unless one’s material assets are used in Krsna consciousness, they may play havoc and degrade the possessor. SB 4.3.17 Purport

“One who has unflinching devotion for the Personality of Godhead has all the good qualities of the demigods. But one who is not a devotee of the Lord has only material qualifications that are of little value.

 

This is because he is hovering on the mental plane and is certain to be attracted by the glaring material energy.” Citizens under the guidance of a Krsna conscious king will become devotees, and then there will be no need to enact new laws every day to reform the way of life in the state.

 

If the citizens are trained to become devotees, they will automatically become peaceful and honest, and if they are guided by a devoted king advised by devotees, the state will not be in the material world but in the spiritual world. All the states of the world should therefore follow the ideal of the rule or administration of Maharaja Ambarisa, as described here. SB 9.4.22

Akruranatha dasa - So, the Krishna conscious king, in guiding the citizens, is not “reforming” them. He does not see any need for reform, but is really carrying out his duty in accordance with the Lord’s arrangement.

The same goes for Krsna-conscious parents who train their children, and even Krishna conscious cops who arrest burglars and drag them in handcuffs down to the station for booking. They are not “reforming” the world, but are playing out their designated roles in accordance with the Lord’s perfect plan for the world.

All the time, they are remembering the Lord and seeing how his creation is perfectly arranged: mam anusmara yudhya ca

How does this insight practically affect us? Will it make us complain less about the shortcomings of our modern economic system or social system? (Does it make us more socially conservative and resistant to change, like religious teachers who supported slavery as “God’s arrangement,” or the Church that aligned itself with the “ancien regime” in Europe?)

Will we be more tolerant of mismanagement in our temple, or of the leadership of ISKCON (or of those who oppose our temple management or who oppose ISKCON’s leadership)?

Does this insight have an effect sort of like the “serenity prayer”, that we become accepting of things we cannot change but still change the things we are supposed to change? Is it somehing like the “Alcoholics Anonymous” catch phrase, “Let go, let God”? [Of course I know it is much deeper than that]

I raise these questions because people often tell me I am too naive and accepting. I am a Pollyanna who sees the world through rose-colored glasses and is not willing to call a spade a spade. Wise well wishers warn me I lack judgment and discrimination and am unrealistically optimistic about the ability of different devotees to get along and work together.

 

But statements like this from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta seem to reinforce my compulsion to at least try to cultivate the mood of blaming no one but myself, and to expect the best from other devotees.

I think I see what you are saying Praghosa Prabhu: The main thrust of the article is that the primary need for each of us is to become Krishna conscious, and not be distracted by other so-called problems, and if we do become Krishna conscious, nothing can really bother us (although our duty may involve struggle, as Arjuna’s did).

I am intrigued by the statement, “This was done…by the mercy of Sri Chaitanya.” What was done? What does Srila Bhaktisiddhanta mean

Praghosa das - Presumably Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is indicating that “The world stands in no need of any reformer [acting independently of Krishna]”

SBSST clearly states that there is a perfectly competent person to look after even the minutest need of reform - Krishna. So logically if someone is acting on behalf of Krishna then whatever reforms they introduce will be on behalf of Krishna. Srila Prabhupada came to the west to help reform western society from being engrossed in materialism, Lord Caitanya did the same 500 years ago.

Obviously these kinds of reformers and those working on their behalf are most welcome - yada yada hi dharmasya

Madhavananda Das (Orissa) - Krishna says we should act according to our sva-dharma. He says if we try to do someone else’s work (even if we can do better) then we are putting ourselves into danger.

 

For us, “sva-dharma” is following guru’s instructions. If guru tells us to create a revolution, then we must. If guru tells us to be an authority and instruct others, then we must. However, if we don’t have such sanction then we have no right to self-appoint ourselves as judges and jihadis against whoever we deem to be offenders. Padma Purana says if we don’t act according to sastra we will simply create a disturbance. And what is the sastric injunction?

 

 

aśraddadhāne vimukhe ’py aśṛṇvati

yaś copadeśaḥ śiva-nāmāparādhaḥ

 

Preaching to those who don’t have faith or who are reluctant to hear from you is an offense to the holy name.

Mahaprabhu taught if someone has faith in us and requests our opinion, we should speak. But if they don’t have faith and don’t ask, better be silent. Before Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya and Prakashananda Saraswati, Mahaprabhu was quiet until they asked for his opinion. Only after they requested him, did he speak, and then he spoke like a bullet — no compromise.

If we are conditioned souls then we’re not the seers we are the seen. We can’t say who is good or bad. We should do whatever Krishna has given us to do.

If we found out that some temple presidents were stealing money, how many devotees would respect them? What if we discovered they were also having illicit sex with others wives? What if we found out they had killed brahmanas, killed cows, and broken deities and temples? Who would respect such persons?

But what if these rascals were eternal associates of the Lord, and those heinous acts were their service to the Lord? What if their names were Jaya/Vijaya-Hiranyakasipu/Hiranyaksa-Ravana/Kumbhakarna?

What about someone who supported Duryodhan and tried to kill Krishna, Arjuna and the pandavas? Could we accept him as a leader, a great devotee, a mahajana?

What if his name was Bhishmadev?

We are not the seers.

As for me, I’m not going to start distributing guns for the revolution, until Krishna or his representative appear before me and give clear instructions to do so. As for the many Don Quixote’s in this world, let them battle with their windmills; my personal role in the reform movement is doing what I’ve been instructed to do.

Kesava Krsna dasa - .It is enlivening to see a topic put before us, to pass comment, or give our realizations - this is real freedom - Krishna katha. Perhaps this could be a regular feature on Danadavats, what do you think Praghosa prabhu?

What I gather from this statement by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is that, in spite of the inability of anyone to reform things - because Krishna is the ability in man - there is a way to do so. The defining words to this effect are: “What is necessary is to change our outlook on the world. This was done for the contemporary generation by the mercy of Sri Chaitanya. It can only be known to recipients of His mercy”.

It is impossible to do anything major in world affairs without Krishna’s fulfilling ambitious quests for change on the political or revolutionary level. But those devotees who are invested with Lord Chaitanya’s mercy, can cause positive changes with the backing of the holy names of the Lord. In other words, only a devotee can make things really happen, whereas those who think they are the doers, do not actually do anything but obey their inferior desires for control.

So when a devotee preaches towards changing societies’ ‘outlook’, to shift the world’s mindset to an acceptable level conducive to accommodate real change, that is setting the spiritual revolution alight. In this regard, the devotees are the doers, whereas, the illusioned reformers are not the doers.

[bija]

 

What is necessary is to change our outlook on this world.

If we neglect the internal heart reformation....how can we expect change or at the most others to follow?

 

 

 

spiritual revolution alight

I hear the sound of drums on a melody

I hear the sound of drums

Well, singing the names above in the city

Yeah, revolution for fun

I feel the time has come like a remody

I feel the time has come

Were shaking the spear of love in the city

Yeah, I hear the sound of drums

Yeah, can you feel the love for me, yeah yeah

I feel the time has come

I hear the sound of drums

I hear the sound of drums on a melody,

Calling me to return

Well, I laugh and catch the sun

cause its gonna be revolution for fun

Yeah, can you feel the love for me, yeah yeah

I feel the time has come

I hear the sound of drums..oh oohh...

Well, I feel the time has come with the melody

I see the golden one

Well, Im not the only one with the remedy

Im not the only one

I feel the time has come

I hear the sound of drums:cool:

 

buddhi yoga! will promote free speech (realized responsible devotees)! we are not robots with no heart!

 

 

 

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[bija]

to quote an acarya:

 

"All spiritual practice must be enhanced by the kirtan discipline."

 

What will that kirtan discipline bring about? The desire of Lord Caitanya - an inner reformation of character, unfolding to true character (spirit self) - and a social spiritual reformation of love of God. But first the work always begins within.

It seems from Srila Prabhupada's books to be very clear, that 'material solutions are no solutions.' Only the internal reality can bring about a Krsna-ization of inert dull matter, transforming it into spiritual substance. Dull matter cannot create consciousness. By Krsna consciousness the whole atmosphere can become Vaikuntha where service is spontaneous - and the well being of the other is a topmost grace ( a service prominent in the heart). Very different to 'fear' based manipulation of dull matter and politics.

 

(please forgive my ramblings online)

 

[cbrahma]

I'm still amazed, if not amused by how the discussion on dandavats about free speech is carried on as though ISKCON were a transparently honest religious institution - WRONG.

In fact the careful control and monitoring of communication is essential to any authoritarian centralized top down organization.

The brutal truth is that any opinions outside the party line are strictly censored for the simple reason that the opinions of the rank and file DO NOT MATTER.

This is one of the important symptoms of a cult.

[eshwaar101]

i have seen instances were pundits have said things that have offended people........but there was truth to what was said

[Ashvatama]

 

 

 

"How fortunate for leaders that men do not think."

 

- Adolf Hitler

 

 

[krsna]

 

 

 

"To be a leader means to be able to move masses"

- Adolf Hitler

 

 

[krsna]

This happens only if you actually HEAR from the Lips of a PURE DEVOTEE. And THIS, my dear friend IS the Lord's MERCY on you:

 

 

The scriptures declare that it is only necessary to listen with an open mind to the name of Krishna from the lips of a bona fide devotee.

As soon as Krishna enters the listening ear, he clears up the vision of the listener so that he no longer has any ambition of ever acting the part of a reformer of any other person, because he finds that nobody is left without the very highest guidance.

It is therefore his own reform, by the grace of God, whose supreme necessity and nature he is increasingly able to realize, by the eternally continuing mercy of the Supreme Lord. :pray: :pray: