An historical honest view of ISKCON's History

[yogesh]

To see someone attacking a personality such as Indradumna Maharaj.

 

A most sincere personality who has done so much to serve his Guru Maharaj like going to dangerous places to preach KC while we sit in our comfortable arm chairs (infront of our computers) and past judgments.

 

Oh it is so easy to find faults in others.

 

If you are truly concerned for Indradumna Maharaj then why did you not consider approaching Indradumna Maharaj regarding some of his "short comings" that you see in him before coming to this public forum? Maybe you could give him some tips on writing styles since you are such an accomplished author.

 

My dear sir my question to you is what have you done to please your Guru or service to the Lord. Have you gone out of your comfort zone to actively preach KC.

 

What have you done to inform/enlighten people about KC?

Have you spread the mercy of Lord Chaitanya?

 

Please dear sir I beg you to stop Vaishnava Aparadh before it destroys your Bhakti:pray:

 

Hare Krsna/Krishna

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada

[bija]

However, I agree that he should be more 'sannyasi-like' for his own protection (that is REAL sannyasa standard, not the washed up Iskcon concoction). by kula

I know this statement by kulapavana is said in love and care.

 

As far as Idradyumna Maharaja's preaching goes it effects the heart of many. A sannyasas preaching should not have to conform and be put in a stereo-type box. His preaching has blessed my life via internet - it has made KC a fun and enjoyable practice not just just all dryness and seriousness.

 

A nice smile speaks a thousand words. I can see the purity of love radiate from his heart and eyes!

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

A most sincere personality who has done so much to serve his Guru Maharaj like going to dangerous places to preach KC

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like father and Daughter, here is Guru with young aspiring disciple

 

 

 

 

 

 

The preaching potential in Eatern Europe is Amazing

Guru with loving disciples

 

[bija]

Nice Sarva Prabhu....a picture is worth a thousand words. Kids can see the love easy!

[Kulapavana]

 

However, I agree that he should be more 'sannyasi-like' for his own protection (that is REAL sannyasa standard, not the washed up Iskcon concoction). by kula

 

I know this statement by kulapavana is said in love and care.

 

As far as Idradyumna Maharaja's preaching goes it effects the heart of many. A sannyasas preaching should not have to conform and be put in a stereo-type box.

 

In Iskcon, a cult of sannyasa has developed and gigantic false egoes were institutionalized. People who really had no business getting sannyasa, asked for it and received it from Prabhupada, and later from his disciples. Because they were not qualified spiritually or materially, most of these people fell down, making a miserable mess in our movement.

 

I believe that re-introducing sannyasa into Gaudiya Vaishnavism was a mistake, and introducing sannyasa in the West was a disaster. Aside from some rare and notable positive examples, sannyasa asram only serves to facilitate the fame, profit and prestige.

 

Devotees like Indradyumna Maharaja could easily do what they are doing as householders. It would be much safer and natural for them and for our movement.

[bija]

 

I believe that re-introducing sannyasa into Gaudiya Vaishnavism was a mistake, and introducing sannyasa in the West was a disaster. Aside from some rare and notable positive examples, sannyasa asram only serves to facilitate the fame, profit and prestige.

 

Devotees like Indradyumna Maharaja could easily do what they are doing as householders. It would be much safer and natural for them and for our movement. by kula

Its very interesting to hear your views on sannyasa. I feel you are a follower of Srila Prabhupada and Sri Srila Prabhupada.

 

I actually agree with you on some points from a personal perspective in regards to householder mood. Sannyasa is a very renounced order of life. Ofcourse I cannot judge the renunciation in the heart of anyone (or Srila Indradyumna Maharaja). Srila Prabhupada lived a high standard but exhibited freedom - very rare soul.

 

I actually feel sannyasa would be faithfully served after householder life has been experienced, and sometime in retirement. Full maturity.

 

May I ask you a personal question? you dont have to answer on a public forum. How do you find balance and harmony with your above statements and at the same time follow Srila Prabhuapda? I know your faith is well established.

 

It would be good for my soul to understand your realizations Kulapavana Prabhu.

 

And also I wanted to ask you about being drawn in your heart to the wider depth of Gaudiya Vaisnavism...the saints of Vraj like in a chat on another thread we had? Maybe if we are fortunate we can see each other on parikrama oneday there. I would love that very much. If I go to Puri oneday, you come as a guest please

 

Why I ask this is because I feel it is possible to have such vision and at the same time being very faithful to our direct diksha line. I need that vision for my spiritual sustenance and harmony (satisfaction of soul). My naievity may mature in time ofcourse, and grow into this vision.

[Kulapavana]

 

How do you find balance and harmony with your above statements and at the same time follow Srila Prabhuapda?

 

Even Srila Prabhupada himself realized towards the end that sannyasa ashram he introduced in the West was a mistake. He openly spoke about it: "no more sannyasa" (In 1977 Srila Prabhupada stated at least twice - based on tape transcripts - that sannyasa asram is to be abolished in Iskcon, or at least that no new sannyasis be initiated).

 

Acharyas take risks when spreading Lord Caitanya's Movement and sometimes the damage is real. It takes some honesty and maturity to see a failure, and Prabhupada had no problem seeing the failure of his sannyasa program. Neither should his followers have a problem seeing that.

 

Both SP and BST were bold experimenters and reformers of Vaishnavism. Not all these experiments were a success. You have to be honest about these things.

 

Soldiers love and respect their commanders not because the commanders led them to win ALL the battles, but because of HOW they led them into these battles. Remember? The results are up to Krsna - in every case.

[bija]

Thank you for stepping out and being honest. I am not sure presently what I think about these things, but I do appreciate very much your practicality and thoughts on the matter.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Acharyas take risks when spreading Lord Caitanya's Movement and sometimes the damage is real. It takes some honesty and maturity to see a failure, and Prabhupada had no problem seeing the failure of his sannyasa program. Neither should his followers have a problem seeing that.

 

Both SP and BST were bold experimenters and reformers of Vaishnavism. Not all these experiments were a success. You have to be honest about these things.

 

Great realization

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

Thank you for stepping out and being honest. I am not sure presently what I think about these things, but I do appreciate very much your practicality and thoughts on the matter.

 

After several decades of practical application of KC we MUST be honest and practical about what works and what does not. Otherwise we are simply deluding yet another generation of aspiring Vaishnavas.

 

Some present Iskcon gurus are honest and practical, at least in private, or at least with their disciples, and they inspire many, many people to take up KC - despite our past mistakes and our current controversies. That is VERY remarkable and must be recognized as good service.

[suchandra]

 

After several decades of practical application of KC we MUST be honest and practical about what works and what does not. Otherwise we are simply deluding yet another generation of aspiring Vaishnavas.

 

Some present Iskcon gurus are honest and practical, at least in private, or at least with their disciples, and they inspire many, many people to take up KC - despite our past mistakes and our current controversies. That is VERY remarkable and must be recognized as good service.

 

Could be that they are gradually finding out that it is the potency of Prabhupada who attracts new devotees and by behaving like priest, "on behalf", Prabhupada's presence is coming through more efficiently.

 

September 22, 1969

London

My Dear Bhagavan das,

Actually, in every town and city there are many, many devotees of Krishna; now it is our business to go around the world wherever people are congregating and pick up these sincere souls. The world is suffering for want of this knowledge of Krishna Consciousness, and we experience practically that many people will take to this spiritual line simply if we make this information available to them.

[Kulapavana]

 

Could be that they are gradually finding out that it is the potency of Prabhupada who attracts new devotees and by behaving like priest, "on behalf", Prabhupada's presence is coming through more efficiently.

 

The importance of work performed by 'devotees on the ground' cannot be neglected. Disciples are the 'energy' of Prabhupada. Without them his books would never get to all these people.

 

Give credit where credit is due. Servant of the servant. One could easily say that 'it is all Krsna's arrangement' and give Prabhupada little credit. Would that be fair?

 

In the same fashion, it is 'boots on the ground' that do the preaching work, and they deserve the credit or the criticism for the job they are doing.

[suchandra]

 

Give credit where credit is due. Servant of the servant. One could easily say that 'it is all Krsna's arrangement' and give Prabhupada little credit. Would that be fair?

 

Yes, let's be fair and honest. There're many devotees who say that present ISKCON is being turned into a new movement with new owners.

In that sense you're right, give credit where credit is due. The take-over succeeded.

 

Cambridge University International School In Mayapur

 

 

 

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[realist]

 

Success is an Opinion

 

BY: KURMA DASA

 

 

May 30, AUSTRALIA (SUN) —

In an article recently posted by Ashvatama dasa titled "

An Historical View of ISKCON's History

", a reference was made to the "nice preaching" going on at ISKCON's Melbourne temple in Australia. The article spoke of how the Sunday Feast was so packed that you can't get in, and that because of this the article's anonymous author made the claim that the preaching was successful.

 

 

We have made a few observations of our own over the years, and would like bring them to the readers attention.

 

 

Success is measured like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. Mostly, people who attend ISKCON's Melbourne Sunday feast attend simply on the basis of

getting a free meal, that's all

!

 

 

This includes a large portion of the Indian community. For this very reason we firmly believe that much of what was originally done with Love and Devotion, (the essential ingredient) is now mostly done in resentment.

 

 

Many devotees resent the fact that people simply come to the temples to eat and don't make any real contribution, or take any real interest in spiritual life.

 

 

When love is lost then everything is lost. The quality of prasadam is of a very low standard. It is, in many instances bland, tasteless, hot, bitter, and put quite frankly, is not at all prepared with Love and Devotion.

 

 

I am not saying that prasadam should be opulent. It can be very simple as we know, however, we are devotees and prasadam is an experience, and as such we certainly can taste when love and devotion is absent.

 

 

To really measure success we need to look at some of the other areas of ISKCON, such as how many people attend the Harinam? Or how many of these people that go to the Sunday feasts, when they get paid their salaries do they think of Krishna and how important ISKCON is to the planet?

 

 

I believe that Christians give 10% and Muslims give 50%, but Krishna says, "As each person surrenders to Him He rewards each person accordingly". I know of Christians who, when they get their weekly salaries, before they spend one cent, they give their 10% to their church or organization.

 

 

This isn't the case with all of these people who attend ISKCON's temples each week for a free meal. Many of them are very crafty, and the temple is simply a place to frequent for a free feed. And we must conclude that on their scale of importance, spiritual life and ISKCON don't rate number one. (Our GBC and Temple authorities must take much of the blame for this, it is very costly.)

 

 

Of course, they will get some spiritual benefit from eating prasadam, however, I do not believe that we can really claim this as successful preaching.

 

 

Another example is Harinam. For the weekly Harinam, the staunch fired-up devotees are lucky if they can muster up six or seven people to attend.

 

 

This is our where our hearts are, we are greedy for food but not for devotional service, and this is not fair to the full-time devotees who live in the temples.

 

 

It creates a resentment that is like a poison running through the temple atmosphere, which in fact should be a blissful atmosphere and attractive to all people who attend.

 

 

A point about some people in the Indian community too, what we have seen is that while the Sunday feast lecture is on, they just march through the temple giving no respect to the speaker. They talk and take pictures with their mobile phones and then simply walk out!

 

 

Personally, I don't believe that Srila Prabhupada would be happy at all about these things, and it is about time our GBC and Temple leaders and managers start to get some Order back in the Temples, the type of order that was established by Srila Prabhupada. As it is now, many people have no respect for ISKCON Temples.

 

 

Krishna Consciousness without Love and Devotion is useless, and in no way could be considered successful.

 

 

At

this website

there is a comparison of how things were established by Srila Prabhupada and how different those things are today.

 

 

Our GBC, Temple managers and serious devotees might wish to give some consideration to these comparisons made by H.G. Pratyatosa prabhu.

 

Kurma Dasa (not the chef)

 

 

[cbrahma]

 

Originally Posted by cbrahma

...I met this Swami at New Dwaraka.

He is a 'celeb' rock star style of sannyasi.

He promotes book sales of his Diary which is being read like sastra which is just a self-glorifying collection of trite anecdotes of his very important travelling activities.

He took up the class time that was dedicated to Bhagavatam to pitch his Diary and read us a chapter. I am a writer and believe me he shouldn't quit his day job.<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 12pt" type="#_x0000_t75" alt=""><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\jtrapani\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>

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cbrahma,

Author! Author!

 

What you have said is an atrociously pathetic bit of Phycho-babble.

The lessons of an itinerate monk is Sastra.

The women in the pictures are seeking darshan of a sadhu.

You are crying out for chastisements that you crave in a distorted rasa-bhasa fashion.

 

If Indrayumna Swami has been proclaimed as a Pillar Of Society (Iskcon) --then, that is what you still have to learn properly.

 

Every situation where we have had to be humbled or made a fool of, or had to suffer through others immature foolery, during our own attempts to live 24/7 in an ISKCON ship, served to advance us --but some people see providence as our friend but, others like cbrahma, see it as an impediment to carrying on with their own lives. Right cbrahma?

.......................................................................

Bhaktajan's lessons for cbrahma is learn all the qualities that he should possess:

[put them on flash-cards and strive with all your energy and attention to aquiring all 26 qualities, it's not just a passing fancy, Right cbrahma?]:

 

------------------

The 26 characteristics of a devotee are described as follows in the Sri Caitanya Caritamrita (Madhya Lila 22. 78-80):

krpalu, akrta-droha, satya-sara sama

nidosa, vadanya, mrdu, suci, akincana

sarvopakaraka, santa, krsnaika-sarana

akama, aniha, sthira, vijita-sad-guna

mita-bhuk, apramatta, manada, amani

gambhira, karuna, maitra, kavi, daksa, mauni

(1) He is very kind to everyone.

(2) He does not make anyone his enemy.

(3) He is truthful.

(4) He is equal to everyone.

(5) No one can find any fault in him.

(6) He is magnanimous.

(7) He is mild.

(8) He is always clean.

(9) He is without possessions.

(10) He works for everyone's benefit.

(11) He is very peaceful.

(12) He is always surrendered to (13) He has no material desires.

(14) He is very meek.

(15) He is steady.

(16) He controls his senses.

(17) He does not eat more than required.

(18) He is not influenced by the Lord's illusory energy.

(19) He offers respect to everyone.

(20) He does not desire any respect for himself.

(21) He is very grave.

(22) He is merciful.

(23) He is friendly.

(24) He is poetic.

(25) He is expert.

(26) He is silent.

Silent means he only talks about <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>.

<font color=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and he does not advertise himself as a great devotee.

 

.............................................................................

 

PS: cbrahma, Are you in great personal distress? You postings are getting so zany-ly kookoo.<FONT face=Verdana>

 

 

 

 

<FONT color=black><FONT color=black>

You are psychoanalyzing me. That is your psycho-babble. My observations of Indradumnya are not the least psychological.

His association with women has raised concerns with a number of devotees. Now just because he is celebrated in ISKCON, doesn't signify very much, with the guru fiasco they have been responsible for. In fact according to your check list of Vaisnava qualities, he doesn't measure up that well.

 

 

 

[krsna]

 

 

The Dilemmna of Mixed Motivations

 

 

 

 

Thomas O'Dea:

"The movement starts with single-minded and unqualified devotion to the leader and to his or her teachings. The followers are willing to make great sacrifice to further the cause, and they willingly subordinate their own needs and desire for the sake of group goals.

 

However, with the development of a stable institutional structure, the desire to occupy the more creative, responsible, and prestigious positions can stimulate jealousies and personality conflicts. Concerns about personal security within the organization may cause members to lose sight of the group’s primary goals.

 

Mixed motivation occurs when a secondary concern or motivation comes to overshadow the original goals and teachings of the leader. Conventions of clergy sometimes debate pension plans and insurance programs more heatedly than statements of mission.

This is a dilemma because the institution must in fact provide for the economic security and well-being of its full-time people (and others)."