Do The Vedas Demand Blind Faith?

[suchandra]

 

 

 

 

 

What does creation say about God? Does nature reveal God's wisdom? Don't the stars reveal God's power?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brahma Samhita 5.29: I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, the first progenitor who is tending the cows, yielding all desire, in abodes built with spiritual gems, surrounded by millions of purpose trees, always served with great reverence and affection by hundreds of thousands of lakṣmīs or gopīs.

 

Brahma Samhita 5.30: I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept in playing on His flute, with blooming eyes like lotus petals with head decked with peacock's feather, with the figure of beauty tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and His unique loveliness charming millions of Cupids.

 

Brahma Samhita 5.31: I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, round whose neck is swinging a garland of flowers beautified with the moon-locket, whose two hands are adorned with the flute and jeweled ornaments, who always revels in pastimes of love, whose graceful threefold-bending form of Śyāmasundara is eternally manifest.

 

Brahma Samhita 5.32: I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose transcendental form is full of bliss, truth, substantiality and is thus full of the most dazzling splendor. Each of the limbs of that transcendental figure possesses in Himself, the full-fledged functions of all the organs, and eternally sees, maintains and manifests the infinite universes, both spiritual and mundane.

 

Brahma Samhita 5.33: I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is inaccessible to the Vedas, but obtainable by pure unalloyed devotion of the soul, who is without a second, who is not subject to decay, is without a beginning, whose form is endless, who is the beginning, and the eternal puruṣa; yet He is a person possessing the beauty of blooming youth.

 

Brahma Samhita 5.34: I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, only the tip of the toe of whose lotus feet is approached by the yogīs who aspire after the transcendental and betake themselves to prāṇāyāma by drilling the respiration; or by the jñānīs who try to find out the nondifferentiated Brahman by the process of elimination of the mundane, extending over thousands of millions of years.

 

 

[eshwaar101]

wow were did u get thoose pic from........i dont think its said to belive in blind faith but i think a certain type of faith is needed to be open minded to ubderstand the various scriptures........keep in mind i dont know much at all......... but i personally think they speak for themselfs......i thik with an open mind u are able to absorb and understand it more clearly

[suchandra]

 

wow were did u get thoose pic from........i dont think its said to belive in blind faith but i think a certain type of faith is needed to be open minded to ubderstand the various scriptures........keep in mind i dont know much at all......... but i personally think they speak for themselfs......i thik with an open mind u are able to absorb and understand it more clearly

You're right, agreed. Thing is the Jehova's witnesses always drop their mag into our letterbox. Today it read, "the bible doesn't demand blind faith in the existence of God," and, "from observation coming to the state of believe", "what does creation tell us about God?"

Since the watchtower magazine is the most read and most successful religious magazine (about 16 million copies in more than 80 languages per week), I thought, why not try to replace "bible" with "vedas" and see what happens?

[theist]

No the scriptures do not demand blind faith. They teach us how to see. The result is sighted faith.

[eshwaar101]

No the scriptures do not demand blind faith. They teach us how to see. The result is sighted faith.

yea that is true, it teaches us to see......we dont see cause we have been beaten down by societys way of thinking that we have become blind............

[cbrahma]

Many of the pseudo-sadus mock faith targetting Western religions as though Christians, Muslims or Jews had no theology, no specifics about spiritual knowledge.

 

BTW, these same pseudo-sadus discredit the Brahma-samhita as being 'the Vedas'.

 

There are faithless academic readings of the Vedas - Vedic scholarship, so-called. They are called mythologies of course.

 

Actually everything requires faith - there are 'fundamental beliefs' such as 'what I am looking at exists'. 'other minds exists' 'I exist' etc... (see Descartes)

 

The question is therefore fundamental to all claims to knowledge which are characterized by certainty.

 

 

certainty (df.): S is certain that p when S believes that p and S cannot possibly be mistaken in that belief; certainty requires the impossibility of error.

· There are other senses of the word “certainty”; certainty in the sense defined above is sometimes called epistemic certainty.

 

[krsna]

 

 

SRIMAD-BHAGWATAM is mula-pramana, the original root of all Vedic evidence.

 

[suchandra]

 

BTW, these same pseudo-sadus discredit the Brahma-samhita as being 'the Vedas'.

 

 

 

Good point, great post - nice to see that there're real sadhus at audarya,

sadhus who constantly see Krsna everywhere.

 

 

From sanga.org:

 

Q. What does it mean when scripture says that a devotee sees Krsna

everywhere?

 

HH Tripurari Swami, posted 25 May 2008: In his commentary to Srimad Bhagavatam 11.2.45, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura writes, atra pasyed iti tatha darsana-yogyataiva vivaksita, na tu tatha darsanasya sarva-kalikata: "Here the word pasyet does not mean that at every moment one sees Krsna's form. It refers to one who has reached the elevated standard of bhakti in which one is qualified to see Krsna's form." Such a devotee's vision is one in which he or she sees everything and everyone in relation to Krsna and sees

everyone as having the capacity to serve him. Sometimes Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu had darsana of Krsna, but not constantly. Most of the time

he saw everything in relation to Krsna.

 

Q. In this age, should the worship of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

(Gaura-Nitai) take precedence over the worship of Radha-Krsna?

 

HH Tripurari Swami: Not necessarily. Mahaprabhu teaches us to worship Radha-Krsna, but

some devotees may have more attraction to Gaura bhajana than to Krsna

bhajana. Gaura-lila takes one to Krsna lila. However, if we go deeply

within Krsna-lila, we find Krsna desiring to taste Radha's love, and

thus therein we again find ourselves in Gaura-lila, wherein Krsna

realizes the fulfillment of his desire. Gaura-lila is the giver and

Krsna lila is the gift--first the giver, then the gift. Which is more

important, you ask? Perhaps you can tell me.

 

Q. What does it mean if one doesn't have as strong an attraction to the

pastimes of Radha-Krsna in Vrindavana as one has to the pastimes of

Krsna and his queens in Dvaraka?

 

HH Tripurari Swami: Strong attachment for Krsna arises at the devotional stage of

asakti, before that there is no possibility of deep attachment for

Bhagavan. Firm faith (nistha) and taste for bhakti (ruci), yes, but no

real attachment to a particular form of Bhagavan. Devotees who have

actually attained asakti and have a strong attachment for Krsna in

Dvaraka will enter into a relationship with Krsna under the guidance of

one of his queens. Such devotees worship Krsna by mixing the paths of

vaidhi-bhakti and raga-bhakti. Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti writes in his

Raga-vartma-candrika that when one is eager for madhurya-bhava but

nonetheless remains attached to vaidhi-bhakti, one attains the position

of svakiya (wedded love) as an associate of Satyabhama in Dvaraka,

knowing her to be Sri Radha's expansion. The general idea is that one

attains the ideal that one worships. How could it be otherwise?

 

Q. In scripture we read of God classified as Visnu-tattva, Siva-tattva,

Sakti-tattva, and so forth. My question is, are all these personalities

of God in some way unique and independent? Do they ever actually forget

themselves for the sake of lila (divine play)?

 

HH Tripurari Swami: Sakti-tattva and Siva-tattva are similar to Visnu-tattva in that

they are one personality appearing in numerous forms. According to

Gaudiya theology, all Visnu-tattva forms are partial manifestations of

svayam bhagavan Sri Krsna, and all of Bhagavan's consorts are

expansions of Sri Radha, who is Sri Krsna's svayam-sakti. Wherever

Visnu appears, Laksmi expands to accompany him. Siva is a

transformation of Visnu, and Devi is a partial expansion of Radha.

 

The best example of God forgetting himself is that of Vrajendrananda

Krsna. He is lost in the self-forgetfulness of love. For his own

pleasure and by his own will, his yogamaya-sakti arranges his

self-forgetfulness. However, although Sri Krsna forgets himself, he

never loses his omniscience. It merely recedes to the background where

it caters to the sincere desires of his devotees who aspire to have an

intimate relationship with him. This self-forgetfulness is also present

in Garua-lila and to a lesser extent in Rama-lila.

 

Q. It is said that Lord Baladeva assumes the form of the mridanga in

order to serve Lord Caitanya. Could you elaborate on this?

 

HH Tripurari Swami: In my vision Sri Krsna's flute appears in Gaura lila as the

mridanga, while Ananta, an expansion of Baladeva, assists him in other

ways, such as shoes, umbrella, sacred thread, etc.

 

sarva-rupe asvadaye krsna-sevananda sei balarama--gaura-sange nityananda

 

"In all the forms he tastes the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna.

That same Balarama is Lord Nityananda, the companion of Lord

Gaurasundara."

 

The idea is that Nityananda Rama is the source of the serving ego,

bhakta-abhimana mula sri-balarame.

 

Q. Having had this experience myself, I feel that the description of

the universal form (Visvarupa) found in the 11th chapter of

Bhagavad-gita is but a metaphor for the intense mystic state that

occurs when one ingests a sufficient amount of psilocybin. In religious

cultures throughout the ages this chemical substance of plant origin

has been used to produce mystical visions. Initially these visions

cause great confusion, which corresponds to Arjuna's fear upon first

seeing the Visvarupa. Ultimately, this confusion transforms into an

intense sense of well-being and enlightenment. Do you have any comments

on this?

 

HH Tripurari Swami: Research shows that visual experiences derived from the use of hallucinogenic drugs vary in relation to one's mental preoccupation.

Therefore, persons who use drugs for spiritual purposes will likely

have visions corresponding with their particular religious

preoccupation. For example, Native Americans and others who practice

nature-based religions are said to often experience themselves as

animal spirits. Hindus might have visions they imagine (as you did) to

be akin to Arjuna's experience of the Visvarupa as described in the

Gita, and Christians might perceive their visions as related to the

second coming of Christ. Tellingly, persons with no spiritual

background or interest whatsoever will hallucinate in terms of their

own materialistic interests. Obsessed with the Beatles song Helter

Skelter, the drug-induced visions of Charles Manson were of an

apocalyptic racial war, one that he personally tried to bring about by

murdering innocent people. Nothing at all spiritual about that!

 

Although there are a few Hindu sects that smoke ganja or take

hallucinogens in quest of enlightenment, the spiritual mainstream of

Hinduism dismisses those who seek to tie hallucinogens to the mystic

ideal of the Bhagavad-gita. Indeed, the text clearly points out that

Arjuna's vision of the Visvarupa was a blessing from Krsna, the result

of his intimate devotion, and had absolutely nothing to do with

psilocybin or any other drug. Neither is the use of hallucinogens for

spiritual purposes recommended anywhere in the Gita.

 

Under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs, one may have visions of

Krsna, Buddha, Jesus, or dancing elephants for that matter, but such

visions are only temporary creations of the mind. The real Krsna is

adhoksaja, beyond the limitations of the mind. His darsana is available

to persons like Arjuna, who through their devotion have become his

intimate friends. Bhagavad-gita (11.53-54) says that to such great

souls Krsna gives the transcendental eyes with which to see him in

truth.

 

Q. I have a friend who belongs to Wicca, a group that practices magic

and worships the deities of nature. He claims that during their rituals

he has an undeniable experience of seeing his deities alive and real.

When he asked me whether I had seen Krsna during my worship, I answered

that I feel Krsna in my heart but I have never really seen him. My

friend replied that he was surprised that I would practice a religion

that relies more on faith than on experience. Honestly, I feel somewhat

jealous of his experiences, so my question is why is it so easy for

Wiccans to have visions of their deities, and so difficult for devotees

to experience and actually see Krsna?

 

HH Tripurari Swami: Wicca, or witchcraft, is one of a number of currently popular adaptations of ancient nature-based religions. These neo-pagan groups, which may include druids, shamans, and various other forms of wizardry and the occult, practice an eclectic mixture of rites and rituals with the goal of experiencing the divine in nature. If we take your friend

at his word, then my reply is that it is one thing to experience minor

earthly deities, and quite another to have the darsana of Krsna, the

Godhead.

 

According to various religious and occult texts, if the adept has

finely honed psychic abilities, then minor deities who cater to the

desire of this world must appear before him or her if all the

appropriate rituals are properly performed. One purport to an ancient

manuscript on sacred magic sums this up by saying, '"The procedure (to

summon spirits) involves many months of purification, followed by the

invocation of good and evil spirits to accomplish very worldly goals,

including the acquisition of treasure and romance." Thus we are

informed that the gods, spirits, or deities that can be summoned

through ritual are not independent of obligation or law.

 

On the other hand, Sri Krsna is described in the Srimad Bhagavatam as

the omniscient, independent Godhead (abhijnah svarat), from whom all

things have emanated. This means that Krsna is above the law and that

there is no force in the universe that can compel Krsna to do anything,

much less appear at any mass or ritual by the force of one's bidding.

If he does choose to appear before his devotee, that is entirely his

own prerogative, as he is controlled not by law or ritual, but by pure

love, the likes of which constitutes his own internal nature

(svarupa-sakti). Love is the only power that has any control over

Krsna, and love of Krsna comes only from Krsna. If you learn to love

Krsna unconditionally, in relation to whom actual unconditional love is

possible, he will be drawn by your love to appear before you. Devoid of

any egotistic motive, love of Krsna transcends the bodily

identification that is the very basis of selfishness. Such love is not

easily obtained, for as long as we identify ourselves with a material

body and mind--as long as our sense of "I" is determined by our sense of

"my"--there is no question of selflessness--no love, for pure love is

selfless.

 

Therefore, our immediate goal is not to see Krsna but rather to serve

him. It is through selfless service that Krsna will reveal himself to

us, and when we truly love Krsna we will see him everywhere. Why?

Because God is everywhere, savam kaluv idam brahma--there is nowhere God is not! Whatever we see is but Krsna and his sakti improperly

understood or misperceived through the distorted lens of material

desire.

 

The important lesson here is that the world and its inhabitants, be

they natural or supernatural beings, are not for us to exploit for the

satisfaction of our senses. To think so is the height of absurdity.

Does the world exist for our temporary sensual satisfaction or does it

have a higher purpose? Ultimately, the entire world will be dismantled

in due course, but we as souls are eternal, and the purpose of our

eternal lives is not merely to experience the ephemeral. In essence,

life is about love, and pure love reposed in Krsna lives on forever and

mystically makes one whole. Such is the power of love.

 

[AncientMariner]

When I first read Prabhupada's books I never viewed it as being all that scientific to be honest but I find science to be extremely boring so I do not really care if it is scientific or not. I want reality to be flying around on magic birds with Krishna simply because that sounds a lot more fun than the reality we are in. I tend to believe in Krishna but from an objective point my faith in Krishna is weakened by the events I have read about in Iskcon. But still at the end of the day I still suspect there is a good possibility that Krishna may in fact be real but I keep an open mind because just brain washing myself in the Vedas just gets boring so I mainly read about Lord Rsabadheva and Jada Bharata because I find them to be the most interesting and likeable incarnations of Krishna.

[suchandra]

 

I want reality to be flying around on magic birds with Krishna simply because that sounds a lot more fun than the reality we are in.

This is a nice thought, yes agreed, the reality of our present world and the way ISKCON proceeds, it is no fun. However, we humans are not the only ones thinking there's hardly any fun, even the insects seem to be frustrated to take care of the basic neccessities and cheat others.

 

Butterflies Trick Ants Into Raising Young

Blue Butterflies Trick Ants Into Adopting and Raising Butterfly Larvae

 

WASHINGTON May 23, 2008 (AP)

The Associated Press

 

Call it the cuckoo of butterflies. Like the well-known birds, the Alcon blue butterfly has found a way to get others to raise its offspring.

A caterpillar of Maculinea alcon, having recently emerged from a flower of Gentiana pneumonanthe

 

A caterpillar of Maculinea alcon, having recently emerged from a flower of Gentiana pneumonanthe is carried back to a nest of the ant Myrmica rubra by a foraging worker ant./A female Maculinea alcon butterfly laying eggs on a flower head of the Marsh gentian, Gentiana pneumonanthe.

(Courtesy of David Nash)

More Photos

 

Researchers in Denmark report that the large blue butterfly has managed to produce larvae with a chemical coating similar to that of the local Myrmica rubra ants.

The butterflies deposit their larvae on marsh gentian plants where exploring ants find them, identify the chemical coating, and take the butterfly larvae back to the ant colony and feed them until they grow up and leave, the researchers report in Thursday's edition of the journal Science.

The researchers, led by David R. Nash of the University of Copenhagen, added that elsewhere in Europe the Alcon butterfly uses a different ant species to raise its young.