how offensive is it to criticize another persons diksha initiation?

[bija]

Some years ago a senior devotee (a leader) in a lecture demeaned another devotees diksha initiation by saying 'Iskcon's initiation procedure is not such a cheap thing!'

 

The mood of the devotee who was critical was almost laughing at the other devotees diksha. Almost like the other devotee was a fool.

The procedure in the non-iskcon group was very different in some ways, with less demands - but by the Guru's grace and teaching the disciple now chants steadily and follows regs.

The Iskcon teacher was critical that the devotee only had to chant minimal Holy Names per day initially to receive shelter with minimal regs. (this was indirectly suggested in the lecture)

The lecture was a "only take siksa in Iskcon lecture' to pre-warn the devotees that this man with the cheap diksha may come for service. The idea of the lecture was to warn others of potential divergence and dis-harmony. The institutional structure and management expressed they did not really want such a devotee within their walls. And if he came they would tolerate but no intimate association would be offered on deeper levels.

 

Very sad experience.

 

Should institutional concerns be more important than respect for sacred diksha?

 

How offensive is it really, to criticize the sacred diksha relationship between Guru and disciple? On that basis of institutional concerns?

 

And what are the consequences of such criticisms for the speaker and those who heard?

 

[bija]

The way I see it diksha is a very personal and sacred matter between Nityananda Prabhu's representative and a soul seeking that mercy.

 

Sacred ground!

It is very hurtful when that sacred ground is trampled on.

 

[eshwaar101]

i think that it is very scared and should be respected.......

[theist]

I don't know about offensive but people simple need to mind their own business. When people ask how many rounds I chant I have a stock answer that I have used for decades, "Not enough." I leave it at that.

 

I have to wonder why the devotee in your example would even want to associate with people that have such a critical attitude towards others. Does he not know by now that that attitude is prominent in Iskcon and has been for a very long time? Too bad he got his heart stepped on and I hope he has learned to protect himself in the future by showing more wisdom.

[bija]

Where he lives there is no other Vaisnava sangha. The next closest is 33 hrs drive away.

 

After some years of occasionally seeking shelter and feeling coldness from management (not all devotees) - yesterday he sent a formal letter to management that he will no longer seek Iskcon's shelter.

 

The conclusion was - 'if no intimate association is possible, why bother?'

 

Ofcourse the institution will justify its own actions.

He is wiser now.

[theist]

 

Where he lives there is no other Vaisnava sangha. The next closest is 33 hrs drive away.

 

After some years of occasionally seeking shelter and feeling coldness from management (not all devotees) - yesterday he sent a formal letter to management that he will no longer seek Iskcon's shelter.

 

The conculsion was - 'if no intimate association is possible, why bother?'

 

Ofcourse the institution will justify its own actions.

He is wiser now.

I understand and have made similar mistakes and it took me along time to learn my lesson. Next best option is to be a hermit as long as one has no positive association close at hand.

[bija]

Hermit he shall do Theist.

 

One devotee in the lecture expressed that 'Iskcon will be the movement to save the whole world'. I guess we can only pray that management sees the light, to bring that universal dream alive again.

 

I guess we live in an imperfect world and cant expect too much. It breaks the heart though, because we all love Sri Caitanya's movement of mercy so much since youth (many of us anyway).

 

And that love must extend to all of us imperfect devotees. A good lesson for tolerance and humility I guess.

[cbrahma]

I understand that it is a breach of etiquette to criticize somebody's spiritual master - that is their diksa guru. There are two problems attending this situation

 

1. Diska is not private - it is a public, formal avowal of the disciple's submission to the guru and the guru's corresponding acceptance. In that respect it resembles a marriage ceremony - in fact both require a fire sacrifice.

 

2. If the disciple proceeds to proselytize on the behalf of his guru trying to 'recruit' other disciples for his spiritual master by continually quoting him and imposing his teachings on everybody he comes in contact with, then that disciple must be open to public criticism. This is especially true if there are real objections to that guru's behaviour or vani.

 

I resent disciples enthusiastically forcing their guru on me, especially when I disapprove of that guru.

My advice , therefore, to anybody who does not want to be criticized about their choice of diksa guru, is not to preach publically on the behalf of that guru.

That is a very difficult position to be in of course, which is why one must be very careful in selecting a diska guru.

The risk is so high, that I would rather not take the gamble. I always assume the right to question somebody else's guru's teaching if they choose to publicize them.

[bija]

This is one of the clearest and best posts I have seen from you cbrahma.

 

The points you bring out here are very essential vaisnava etiquette, and such concerns are on the forefront of leaders minds in institutional structures and management.

 

The disciple should also be conscious of these things in his dealings with other vaisnava's and groups.

 

Considering Gaudiya Vaisnava's are personalists my argument is that devotees should not be treated impersonally, and categorized in a box of possible outcomes and behaviours, but instead as these challenges arise in vaisnava communities personalities should be treated personally and not as outcomes.

 

My reflection on the above circumstance is that things could have been done by both parties better.

 

And I fully agree with you - Guru's instructions etc to a disciple are a very personal matter and should not be forced upon or demanded of others in a different Guru/disciple relationship.

 

Thank you for your balanced and thoughtful post in this regard cbrahma, it is enlightening for me.

[bija]

 

- infact both require a fire sacrifice by cbrahma

 

Actually there are cases where Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada gave diksha without the formal fire sacrifice ceremony.

[bija]

Infact it could simply be the cold hard reality that while still in this material climate, certain vaisnava sangha's and devotees may not have the possibility for close intimacy.

 

The beginner in Krsna consciousness may not be aware of these complexities until he matures over time. But why should he harden - even if wiser?

 

The heart is much bigger than all this - and for this reason of the heart and its qualities, the saying of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada, that institution can be a dam and dyke blocking the flow of a bonafide spiritual movement may ring true.

 

So above all the heart must be given highest priority I feel, even with day to day dealings one with another on the most basic levels.

 

Thank you for allowing me the space to process these thoughts and feelings. It is always helpful to hear from another cbrahma - thx!

[bija]

Considering cbrahma's recommendation, what is the outcome if these considerations are neglected?

 

Firstly I would say that offences could develop, and secondly division could deepen.

 

Is it wiser to be pragmatic and serve seperately, as was suggested by Iskcon management? Or does this impinge on the universal quality of devotional service?

 

Where to find balance? I know what the heart longs for!

[cbrahma]

Unless the diska guru is at the level of uttama-adhikari Sampradaya acarya

it too easily leads to an abusive authoritarian hierarchy of the kind manifested in ISKCON. Of course the ISKCON structure has no real precedence in Hindu history - that is a corporate organization that governs diksa gurus collectively (the GBC) and absolutely.

Either way the amount of power a diksa guru has over his disciples is despotic and absolute - and we know the fate and history

of despotic absolute governments.

[bija]

Either way the amount of power a diksa guru has over his disciples is despotic by cbrahma

 

This has been seen in the history of Hare Krsna movement in the west. And often decisions are made from a top down system. Where the small become objects for a bigger purpose. Sadly.

 

I think your description here is the classic distortion that a diksa/disciple relation can be (and has been). When infact if the Guru is reasonably mature in the subtleties of spiritual life the outcome for the disciple could be much more postive. ie - that the disciple gains the ability to think and process clearly using buddhi - this must be the objective of the Guru. To bring the disciple to awareness of buddhi yoga (bhakti yoga). As it Is Gita says there is no difference between Buddhi Yoga and Bhakti Yoga.

 

The perfect example of this is the Guru/disciple relationship between Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada and Srila Prabhuapada. Infact it seems that Srila Prabhupada was on occasions criticized by others for his clear mind and freedom in implementing his Guru's intstruction.

 

This also brings to the forefront the dangers of taking shelter from someone who does not have the necessary qualifications. Maybe if that case did arise a good siksa guru may be of benefit if the diksa guru is humble enough to acknowledge his inadequacy..such humility may be rare in some cases...where tempraments of people who rise to position often have inbuilt competitive natures. Humility seems to be the essential key covering all aspects of spiritual life, especially the honesty to admit our own adhikari. An honesty many of us seem to lack on many occasions.

 

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread...

[cbrahma]

The history of ISKCON reflects the history of the Gaudiya Math in some disturbing particulars. If you dig further into the history of so many of these maths and religious Hindu sects similar stories of animosity and violence are uncovered.

Members of one group won't allow members of another to come to their temples etc...overall I only want to stay as far away from it as possible.

[bija]

You should stay away from it cbrahma, in my humble opinion.

 

I have noticed one essential so-called flaw in my psychology cbrahma:

 

idealist!

It seems in this material world the ideal will always be frustrated. But on a positive outlook, where does that ideal originate from in many spiritualists?

 

Maybe maturing in that quality of idealism (in wisdom as Theist says), the quality can be visionary and progressive....even if we are pushing a cart up a hills most of our lives:cool:.

 

What concerns me is falldown -

 

Here is some writing from Sri-Bhaktirasmrta-sindhu-bindu, plus commentary.

If we do not understand these things by buddhi yoga, it can lead to grave offence as suggested in your above post, and loss of faith in the process. Presently I have not lost faith in the process - by the force of some miracle within.

 

 

from the tenth anga of bhajan:

 

In Sri Prarthana in the prayer known as Svanistha, Srila Narottama Thakura has expressed deep faith in the association of Vaisnavas in the following words:

 

vaisnavera pada dhuli tahe mora snana keli

tarpana mora vaisnavera nama

vaisnavera ucchista tahe mora manonistha

vaisnavera namete ullasa

To consecrate my body with the dust of the lotus feet of Vaisnavas is a bath of ecstatic delight. By chanting their names my offering of oblations to the forefathers is automatically accomplished. The remnants of their prasada is my all in all, and by hearing and chanting their names indescribable bliss radiates within my heart.

 

In the Hari-bhakta-vilasa quoting from Skanda purana it is said:

 

hanti nindati vai dvesti vaisnavan nabhinandati

krudhyate yati no harsam darsane patanani sat

 

To kill a Vaisnava, to slander him, to bear malice against him, to fail to welcome him or please him, to display anger towards him and to not feel pleasure upon seeing him - these six are the causes of falldown.

In my realization the above scripture verses should never be used to justify vaisnava fanatic adoration, but must be studied deeply to understand the purport. Must be realized, or else all scripture becomes a basis for neophyte inadequacy.

 

Personally my being introduced to these mananagerial, sectarian, and institutional concerns presents a huge learning curve - and is a dangerous place to be. So easlily, falldown could happen.

 

There are several reasons why I am typing this experience on the net:

 

1. I have no one to discuss these things with here presently.

 

2. It helps me process the experience by venting it.

 

3. I wish to leave a footprint of this experience on the net for future reference, to all aspiring for simple service.

 

4. The experience of impersonal vaisnaivism has hurt me, and I wish to speak against it.

 

Ofcourse within my heart I could easily attack and steam out the hurt. But this will be of no benefit to anyone - so the opportunity for growth extends itself instead.

 

All humans have feelings, even as offenders we have feeling. This is the essence of vaisnavism - softness of heart.

 

Bhakti will only reside in a softened throne. Where politics has first priority, the flow of bhakti will stifle.

[Vedesu]

 

Ofcourse within my heart I could easily attack and steam out the hurt. But this will be of no benefit to anyone - so the opportunity for growth extends itself instead.

 

All humans have feelings, even as offenders we have feeling. This is the essence of vaisnavism - softness of heart.

 

Bhakti will only reside in a softened throne. Where politics has first priority, the flow of bhakti will stifle.

 

I don't post all that often, but I just wanted to let you know Bija prabhu, that I have a great respect for your mood and that I enjoy reading the realizations that you share. The NDE from your younger years was an eye-opener for me and I know that it must have been a great catalyst and epiphany for your progressive spiritual evolvement, which is light-years ahead of my own. I appreciate the way you are able to communicate with a soft heart towards almost anyone, regardless of their viewpoints. I hope that I may be able to imbibe your swan-like temperament someday. Hare Krsna!

[bija]

Thank you so much Vedesu. To be honest I feel inadequate in service alot of the time. When I meet kind Vaisnava's I begin to awaken to what real ego is - and find my feet again in this crazy world.

 

It is from the example of beautiful Hare Krsna devotees online that I am learning to walk again. It will be awesome when our hearts are free of misgiving won't it? Happy day lol!

 

Thanks for your kindness Prabhu.

[bija]

Vedesu I have only ever had service opportunity as a devotee via internet.

 

By the looks of it that will remain the focus for some time...

 

Last year under Gurudeva's guidance I built a very small Hare Krsna Ashrama Temple in Second Life Virtual World.

 

Several devotees over the last few years have attempted and experimented with virtual preaching, with not much success so far.

 

Things were going very well last year. A network of devotees including myself had several small places - we were from different Sangha's but on very warm friendly terms. It was heaps of fun.

 

On an average day 15 or so people were coming to hear class over the course of the day. Even some disciples of Srila Prabhupada were coming to class - which was a joy for me.

 

Unfortunately one godbrother who had some difficulty appeared in my classes with up to eight different characters playing games with me. I did not know they were all the same person. It nearly broke me down, and the preaching mission fell apart.

 

All sorts of people were coming, many were not devotees but had general interests in things eastern. Some people who came were shy and were not comfortable with real life temples - they enjoyed the virtual experience alot.

 

I even was given donations by visitors to cover costs. I gave back alot of the money, one good german man was even willing to pay an airticket to India for me to meet Gurudeva. I declined as my conscience about receiving money was heavy.

 

I may consider opening and building in Second Life again oneday. A good friend still has a Krsna place there and wants me to serve.

 

I am interested in internet service in the coming decade, our little sangha is internet based and focused. I also found shelter through internet preaching.

 

Virtual Reality interfaces hold potential for the future.

 

My philosophy for internet age is simple - leave nice impressions - an impression left in the mind of a simple hearted soul - can grow into a divine creeper of love....

 

That philosophy worked very well in Second Life. Alot of people interacted with me over a period of eight months.

 

We had Krsna tshirts, sikhas, robes, Deities, ghee lamps, tilaka marks, books, videos....its up to creative imagination. I am a computer clown, so most other people made the technical stuff - they were more motivated in that way.

 

I may rebuild again oneday...smarter and wiser next time.

 

*oh and a word of caution - maya in Second Life is big time - it snared me once or twice pretty heavy. But virtual temple and classes may be the rock in the future! Nothing but bhakti!

 

I also covered costs by doing tarot readings sometimes as a side thing - but I think I would attempt to do more Krsna only service next time.

[cbrahma]

 

There are several reasons why I am typing this experience on the net:

 

1. I have no one to discuss these things with here presently.

 

2. It helps me process the experience by venting it.

 

3. I wish to leave a footprint of this experience on the net for future reference, to all aspiring for simple service.

 

4. The experience of impersonal vaisnaivism has hurt me, and I wish to speak against it.

 

Ofcourse within my heart I could easily attack and steam out the hurt. But this will be of no benefit to anyone - so the opportunity for growth extends itself instead.

 

All humans have feelings, even as offenders we have feeling. This is the essence of vaisnavism - softness of heart.

 

Bhakti will only reside in a softened throne. Where politics has first priority, the flow of bhakti will stifle.

 

The communication of ideas is the lifeblood of civilization. I'm bewildered by the path you are following, however. Yes bhakti is the yoga of the heart, because the heart is the seat of the soul according to the Vedas.

You have a sweet mood, which is a good foundation. But the Truth should never be compromised and should always be spoken. I don't understand the

dichotomy between telling the truth and committing offenses.

Only rascals and miscreants will invoke Vaisnava apharada to escape the Truth and cover up their crimes and falsehoods. (see ISKCON)

As soon as the Truth is compromised , there is no hope of spiritual life.

 

 

" Party spirit - that great enemy of the truth - will always baffle the attempt of the inquirer who tries to gather truth from the religious works of his nation and will make him believe that the Absolute Truth is nowhere except in his old religious book."

Bhaktivinoda Thakur

 

 

 

"Now the GBC has become more than Guru Maharaja? As if simply GBC is meant for looking after pounds, shilling, pence. The GBC does not look after spiritual life -- that is the defect. All of our students will have to become guru, but they are not qualified. This is the difficulty."

Srila Prabhupada [1975]

 

 

"Mahaprabhu asked me yesterday to give you diksha. You should not think that I have anything to do with your diksha. Think that it is Mahaprabhu, Who has blessed you with the mantra."

Gaurakishora Dasa Babaji

 

I'm particularly saddened by your lack of association, which is the result of your honesty and sincerity. I have found myself similarly isolated and , unlike you, I consider that situation to be unacceptable and as a result have abandoned the formal Hindu religious path for a Christian one which is more personal and loving.

[bija]

Actually cbrahma I am one who supports your choice of christianity. What is essential in spiritual life I feel is peace, and a place where we can blossom.

 

I would always respect your christianity, as I am grateful for that foundation in my life too - a part of my life I deeply treasure. In some ways christianity is simple in practice - love is the way. If you find growth there - dive into it.

 

Thank you cbrahma.

[Sarva gattah]

 

i think that it is very scared and should be respected.......

 

Yes, I have gradually learnt over the last year it is a fact, that the ISKCON organization is NOT the only way to Krishna, although Lord Caitanya is in this age of Kali-yuga. There are many devotees of Lord Caitanya all over the world who are not members of the ISKCON organization

 

I don't know why I believe this, but I strongly believe a day will come when all the different branches of Lord Caitanya's tree like ISKCON and the Gaudiya matha, will all come together, work together as a fulfilment of Lord Caitanya's prediction - maybe in our life time if we become purified enough

 

Because knowledge is evolving, for those who I have offended, please accept my sincere apologies prabhus

 

Hare Krishna

[Beggar]

 

Because knowledge is evolving, for those who I have offended, please accept my sincere apologies prabhus

Hare Krishna

I am trying to feel the same way, but being puffed up with false pride is a problem for me.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

Some years ago a senior devotee (a leader) in a lecture demeaned another devotees diksha initiation by saying 'Iskcon's initiation procedure is not such a cheap thing!'

 

The mood of the devotee who was critical was almost laughing at the other devotees diksha. Almost like the other devotee was a fool.

The procedure in the non-iskcon group was very different in some ways, with less demands - but by the Guru's grace and teaching the disciple now chants steadily and follows regs.

The Iskcon teacher was critical that the devotee only had to chant minimal Holy Names per day initially to receive shelter with minimal regs. (this was indirectly suggested in the lecture)

The lecture was a "only take siksa in Iskcon lecture' to pre-warn the devotees that this man with the cheap diksha may come for service. The idea of the lecture was to warn others of potential divergence and dis-harmony. The institutional structure and management expressed they did not really want such a devotee within their walls. And if he came they would tolerate but no intimate association would be offered on deeper levels.

 

Very sad experience.

 

Should institutional concerns be more important than respect for sacred diksha?

 

How offensive is it really, to criticize the sacred diksha relationship between Guru and disciple? On that basis of institutional concerns?

 

And what are the consequences of such criticisms for the speaker and those who heard?

 

That's horrible. The critical guy sounds like a huge, money-grubbing jerk if all he cares about is getting ppl to go to an ISKCON temple over any other Gaudiya temple. I don't think that the sacred bond between Guru and disciple should ever be violated... that is, unless the Guru turns out to be a swindler of some type. But, even then it should be handled with sensitivity and grace.

[indulekhadasi]

I will say that in ISKCON they have bigger demands, but I don't think the initation of other maths is CHEAP. How horrible. Initiation is not a cheap thing.

For example, I chant 16 rounds now, but initiation is not on my mind. I do not want to treat diksha cheaply. I want to make sure I am totally sincere and then take diksha, to fully show the importance of such a big and serious step of life.