Fall Theory=Mayavada?

[tackleberry]

The fall theory of gaudiyas is very similar to mayavada, in that they both assume the jiva-s to be dreaming. In GV, jiva-s are dreaming this material world while in actuality they're in Vaikuntha, whereas in advaita, this material world is Brahman's dream, and multiple jiva-s are an illusion. So the only difference is in names (instead of Brahman, GVs call the entity ViSNu), and perhaps in the idea of multiple jiva-s which GV subcribes to, and advaita doensn't.

 

What say you?

[Sarva gattah]

 

The fall theory of gaudiyas is very similar to mayavada, in that they both assume the jiva-s to be dreaming. In GV, jiva-s are dreaming this material world while in actuality they're in Vaikuntha, whereas in advaita, this material world is Brahman's dream, and multiple jiva-s are an illusion. So the only difference is in names (instead of Brahman, GVs call the entity ViSNu), and perhaps in the idea of multiple jiva-s which GV subcribes to, and advaita doensn't.

 

What say you?

 

The Mayavadis see EVERYTHING as illusion (I am u, you are me and we are all together) and in this way claim to be God

 

Devotees of Krishna on the other hand, see everthing as a REAL creation of the Lord where Vaikuntha is the permanant devotional autocratic aspect of Krishna's creation, while the inferior Mahat-tattva (material creation) is the impermanant forever changing, fading and decaying aspect of His wonderful creation.

 

Both are real however, Vaikuntha is imperishable while the mahat-tattva is perishable.

 

In other words the material creation is very REAL but is

temporary

 

In the Spiritual Sky there is a cloud that is very real but is always in a state of decay, this is where we, themarginal living entity, can go if we choose to not serve Krishna however, because of the 'eternal presents' of Vaikuntha, we can never leave to enjoy seperately as our nitya-siddha perpetual bodily self, who we really are within the 'eternal present'.

 

We therefore enter the mahat-tattva cloud in a secondary conscious state (nitya-baddha) that is compared to dreaming, but this self centred dream, unlike the dream state of ones biological body, is very real but expressed in an atmosphere of eternal decay (the maha-tattva)

[realist]

Srila Prabhupada - "We are marginal energy! Marginal means sometimes internal, sometimes external. When we are under the internal energy, that is our normal life, and when we are under the external energy, that is our abnormal life. Therefore, we are called marginal energy; we can be either this way or that way. But being qualitatively one with the purusa, our tendency is to remain in the internal energy. Being in the external energy is our artificial attempt".letter to Lilavati prabhu April 25, 1969 Allston, Mass USA

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) as well as the impersonal Brahmajyoti from where some wrongly say we originate from as a plain sheet of consciousness."

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personally told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu."

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence"

 

Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatastha's (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independant and eternally have free will. This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "In Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi 5.142) it is said, ekale isvara krsna, ara saba bhrtya: the only supreme master is Krsna, and all others, both visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva, engage in the service of the Lord. Both the visnu-tattva (as Nityananda Prabhu and Advaita) and the jiva-tattva (srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrnda) engage in the service of the Lord, but one must distinguish between the visnu-tattva servitors and the jiva-tattva servitors."

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then"?

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. ". 69-10-27 letter sent from John Lennon’s Estate Tittenhurst (Temporary Temple in 1969)

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The nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  The nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness is actively within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the jiva-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels so one can actively act out their nonsensical dreams within His mahat-tattva.

  
  

 

 

 

 

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  Or is conditioned outside the Vaikuntha realm and outside the active mahat-tattva, within an Impersonal inactive dormant jiva-baddha dreamless condition known as the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman, where an unlimited number of 'jiva-baddhas' remain in that dormant state that appears and expands (due to souls constanly being liberated from the mahat-tattva) as an individual collective of living light particles, not aware of past, present and future.

  
  

 

 

As already explained, Srila Prabhupada has told us that the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay.

 

 

 

 

Both are temporary conditions because the DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada has further explained that the marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya baddha, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because all marginal living entities are always nitya-siddha, they only DREAM they are nitya baddha.

 

 

 

 

The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternally ones genuine identity perpetually.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is clearly telling us that the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and is given material ethereal and biological bodily facilities or vessels that make such dreams a temporary reality

 

 

 

 

However, they are subject to decay and are transitory.

 

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted on "How have we fallen in this material world?"

No one sleeps like this as so many wrongly understand from the 'no-fall camp, and comes to the material world while their nity-siddha body is asleep or dormant. It is not like that. In fact ones service in Goloka is always very active even if ones 'conscious awareness' has moved to the mahat-tattva.

 

No-one falls asleep 'in this way as believed by by some of the 'no-fall; Gaudiya Math and ISKCON devotees in Vaikuntha or Goloka then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that.

 

WHY??

 

 

 

To understand correctly, for a living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fall down previously, long, long, long ago from Vaikuntha, as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life.

 

 

Some also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there again to the mahat-tattva or material creation to the encloser of ethereal and biological vessels.

 

Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva.

 

 

 

Secondly, the photo of the Sadhu laying down sleeping, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state.

Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way.

 

What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

This sentence is very important to understand.

 

 

 

 

There is no 'laying down sleeping in Vaikuntha or Goloka, and then dreaming' ones material existence, it is not like that.

 

What actually happens is the non-Krishna conscious desire and imaginations happen on the sub conscious level out of sync with the 'eternal present' that is eternally existent in Goloka.

 

 

Therefore the ONLY thing that happens is that the living entity leaves the spiritual Vaikuntha atmosphere of eternal time that is devoid of past and future.

The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, that only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'.

 

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates. The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time'

 

In this way it is incorrect to think a nitya-siddha devotee lays down and sleeps and dreams their baddha-jiva material existence, no it is not like that.

 

 

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed.

 

On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

 

 

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[Kulapavana]

 

The fall theory of gaudiyas is very similar to mayavada, in that they both assume the jiva-s to be dreaming. In GV, jiva-s are dreaming this material world while in actuality they're in Vaikuntha, whereas in advaita, this material world is Brahman's dream, and multiple jiva-s are an illusion. So the only difference is in names (instead of Brahman, GVs call the entity ViSNu), and perhaps in the idea of multiple jiva-s which GV subcribes to, and advaita doensn't.

 

 

1. The "no fall" (sleeper-vada) theory is limited only to some delusional disciples of Srila Prabhupada and has absolutely no place in Gaudiya Vaishnavism

 

2. Sleepervada theory directly cotradicts Vedic scriptures, by claiming that there is no soul (atman) in the material body, only some 'projected consciousness' for which there is no term in the entire Vedic literature.

 

3. Mayavada is a very well formed theory, to a large extent based on the Vedic version of monism, while the sleeper-vada rejects the shastric basis and derives its sole support from isolated comments of a single person, Srila Prabhupada. In many cases it is completely contradictory to other statements of the same authority, such as the presence of soul (atman) in every body.

 

Thus it can be concluded that the sleeper-vada theory is a total joke, while the Mayavada philosophy is a formidable obstacle on the way to understand Krsna.

[Sarva gattah]

 

1.

2. Sleepervada theory directly cotradicts Vedic scriptures, by claiming that there is no soul (atman) in the material body, only some 'projected consciousness' for which there is no term in the entire Vedic literature.

 

This is complete nonsense, who has ever said there no soul comes to the mahat-tattva. ?

 

The 'projected consciosness' IS the soul coming to the material world (10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimensional aspect of the material world) and that is called the 'baddha-jiva'

 

Stop trying to understand this from the 'materialist mundane scientific television view of 'projections'. IT'S NOT LIKE THAT!!

 

On the absolute level the soul is a projector and is also the projected

 

The projector is is nitya-siddha-jiva and the projected is baddha-jiva

 

Each BADDHA JIVA-SOUL is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair IN OUR dimension of awareness within the maha-tattva and impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti

Srila Prabhupada - “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact".

 

Srila Prabhupada - "By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen".

 

Srila Prabhupada - "We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

In the Śrī Caitanya Caritamrta the nitya-baddha condition of the marginal living entity is clearly described in the following quotes - "

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "My dear Rūpa, please listen to Me. It is not possible to describe devotional service completely; therefore I am just trying to give you a synopsis of the symptoms of devotional service" Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.137

Then Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu then went on to explain the jiva’s fall down and being covered within the mahat-tattva (material creation) only.

'Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ‘The ocean of the transcendental mellows of devotional service is so big that no one can estimate its length and breadth. However, just to help you taste it, I am describing but one drop.

 

In this universe there are limitless living entities in 8,400,000 species, and all are wandering within this universe. The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities.

 

They are all cit-kaṇa, particles of spirit, not matter. If we divide the tip of a hair into one hundred parts and then take one part and divide this into another one hundred parts, that ten-thousandth part is the dimension of the living entity. This is the verdict of the chief Vedic mantras. [Lord Kṛṣṇa says:] 'Among minute particles, I am the living entity. "Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.138- 142

In this way Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is describing our secondary 'dreaming' nitya-baddha consciousness that has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature of ones marginal identity, and not the position or bodily foundation of the jiva soul which is their perpetual svarupa bodily identity in Vaikuntha

 

Therefore each individual living entity that chooses to project their conditional non-Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha conscious characteristic of their marginal identity to the mahat-tattva 'dreaming' creation of Maha-Vishnu, IS 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

Srila Prabhupada then 'cleary' explains this phenomenon - "We have come from God. Just like one man is put in the prison house. He has come from his free home. By his work he is criminal; therefore he is put into the prison house. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God. Our real home is Vaikuntha”,. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.12.2 Bombay, April 13, 1976

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu “The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139

The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

 

This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander and is the baddha jiva aspxt of ones marginal identity that is very real.

Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks of light particals within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky.

 

This consciousness (nitya-baddha secondary consciousness) has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot.

 

In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes.

They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha.

 

Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are.

 

Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space.

All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below -

Srila Prabhupada “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul.

 

They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Srila Prabhupada's Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

Srila Prabhupada “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets.

 

Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu.

 

These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord.

 

They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

Srila Prabhupada “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person.

 

But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada “These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas–explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control.” Cc. Madhya, 25.42

Srila Prabhupada "The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure.

 

Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], Krishna.

 

Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Srila Prabhupada - “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact".

 

Srila Prabhupada - "By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972

Srila Prabhupada "We have come from God. Just like one man is put in the prison house. He has come from his free home. By his work he is criminal; therefore he is put into the prison house. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God. Our real home is Vaikuntha”,. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.12.2 Bombay, April 13, 1976

Srila Prabhupada “But we have come here. How we have come, that is a very mysterious thing; but we are part and parcel. Why you are jumping with a jet plane to go to the moon planet?

 

If you prepare yourself… There are methods; otherwise, why Krishna says, yānti deva-vrata?

 

“If you want to go to the higher planetary system, you prepare yourself in this life. You’ll be next life…” Tyaktva deham:

 

“You shall go there. Or if you want to remain, go to the planets of Pitrloka, you can go there. And if you prepare yourself to come to Me, back to home, back to God, you can do that.”

 

So what should be our aim of life?

 

We shall go to the higher planetary system or back to home, back to Godhead?

 

“Back,” we say, because we have come from God.

 

Just like one man is put in the prison house. He has come from his free home. By his work he is criminal; therefore he is put into the prison house. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God. Our real home is Vaikuntha. But we have come here.

 

How we have come, that is a very mysterious thing; but we are part and parcel. Somehow or other… Bhaktivinoda Thakura has sung, anadi karama phale, padi ’bhavarṇava-jale. Somehow or other we have fallen this.

 

Therefore the real aim of life, how to get out of this bhavarṇava, nescience, that is the aim of life. If we remain again like the monkeys and cats and dogs, eating, sleeping, mating, and dancing, that is not very responsible life.

 

Every man should be responsible." Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.12.2 by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Bombay, April 13, 1976

[Sarva gattah]

 

The Mayavadis see EVERYTHING as illusion (I am u' date=' you are me and we are all together) and in this way claim to be God[/size']

 

Devotees of Krishna on the other hand, see everthing as a REAL creation of the Lord where Vaikuntha is the permanant devotional autocratic aspect of Krishna's creation, while the inferior Mahat-tattva (material creation) is the impermanant forever changing, fading and decaying aspect of His wonderful creation.

 

Both are real however, Vaikuntha is imperishable while the mahat-tattva is perishable.

 

In other words the material creation is very REAL but is

temporary

 

In the Spiritual Sky there is a cloud that is very real but is always in a state of decay, this is where we, themarginal living entity, can go if we choose to not serve Krishna however, because of the 'eternal presents' of Vaikuntha, we can never leave to enjoy seperately as our nitya-siddha perpetual bodily self, who we really are within the 'eternal present'.

 

We therefore enter the mahat-tattva cloud in a secondary conscious state (nitya-baddha-jiva soul that a REAL projected consciouness that is 10,000th the tip of hair) that is compared to dreaming, but this self centred dream, unlike the dream state of ones biological body, is very real but expressed in an atmosphere of eternal decay (the maha-tattva)

[jaswant]

i received this -- any comments

ys

jaswant

Does the Universe Ever End? Is It Real?

The universe ends at mahapralaya, when time, form and space dissolve in God Siva, only to be created again in the next cosmic cycle. We call it relatively real to distinguish it from the unchanging Reality. Aum Namah Sivaya.

Bhashya

This universe, and indeed all of existence, is maya, Siva's mirific energy. While God is absolutely real, His emanated world is relatively real. Being relatively real does not mean the universe is illusory or nonexistent, but that it is impermanent and subject to change. It is an error to say that the universe is mere illusion, for it is entirely real when experienced in ordinary consciousness, and its existence is required to lead us to God. The universe is born, evolves and dissolves in cycles much as the seasons come and go through the year. These cycles are inconceivably immense, ending in mahapralaya when the universe undergoes dissolution. All three worlds, including time and space, dissolve in God Siva. This is His ultimate grace--the evolution of all souls is perfect and complete as they lose individuality and return to Him. Then God Siva exists alone in His three perfections until He again issues forth creation. The Vedas state, "Truly, God is One; there can be no second. He alone governs these worlds with His powers. He stands facing beings. He, the herdsman, after bringing forth all worlds, reabsorbs them at the end of time." Aum Namah Sivaya.

[tackleberry]

 

Thus it can be concluded that the sleeper-vada theory is a total joke, while the Mayavada philosophy is a formidable obstacle on the way to understand Krsna.

 

Obstacle because they consider Formless Brahman to be greater than Krishna, whom they consider to be Brahman with forms? And did Prabhupada explicitly state these things, that the jiva has fallen down, and so on? Was he the only person in GV to say so?

[Kulapavana]

 

Obstacle because they consider Formless Brahman to be greater than Krishna, whom they consider to be Brahman with forms? And did Prabhupada explicitly state these things, that the jiva has fallen down, and so on? Was he the only person in GV to say so?

 

It is an obstacle, because it promotes a desire to become one with God. Thus surrender and love of God cannot be developed.

 

Prabhupada is the only person in the GV tradition who promoted an idea that jiva's initial position was in direct contact with Krsna or Vishnu (fall from Vaikuntha). However, he also stated in other places that we all come from Brahman (see Isopanishad quotes) and that no one falls from Vaikuntha. Because of these inconsistencies devotees feel the need to concoct apa-sampradaic theories like the sleepervada.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Obstacle because they consider Formless Brahman to be greater than Krishna, whom they consider to be Brahman with forms? And did Prabhupada explicitly state these things, that the jiva has fallen down, and so on? Was he the only person in GV to say so?

Don't listen to the 'no fall impersonal origin believers' like Kulapavana who is Just another devotee who laughable and less intelligently lacks the correct understanding and personal realizations of Prabhupada's deep teachings.

 

Kulapavana and others are not tuned in at all to the deep understanding and teachings of Srila Prabhupada and Gaudiya Vaishnavism, who have joined the Narayana Maharaj and Sridar Maharaj crowd of understanding with their silly impersonal ideas that -

 

"We came from a plain sheet of consciousness from the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti", and that we were never before with Krsna (It's interesting to note that one discription of a Mayavadi is those who foolishly believe we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti) Anyway,

 

I will not go that far with Narayana Maharaj and Sridar Maharaj because, regardless of THEIR belief we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, their goals are to serve Krishna, so regardless of where they believe we came from, they are great devotees of Lord Krsna because that is who they now serve.

 

I have understood on this forum and along with recent debates I have had in Vrndavana, that there are two types of devotees in this philosophical regard, those who believe we came from Goloka, and those who foolishly believe we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti. And that will never change while we are in the mundane world.

 

The good point about both camps is service to Lord Caitanya and that they often will come together for the greater purpose of preaching, with the higher goal in mind of returning of getting all the fallen souls to return back home back to Godhead

 

Anyway here are the facts I have ALWAYS strongly believed and have NEVER EVER devaited from, and NEVER will.

 

And feel free to pass the following quotes on to Srila Narayana Maharaj as well, so he can also learn and understand the truth of our origins -

 

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personally told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu."

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence"

 

As Srila Prabhupada says - "We are actually never fallen, we only 'dream' or 'think' we are fallen". That dream state is called the nitya-baddha and it is that 'consciousness' that experiences the temporary pains, nightmares and pleasures while the living entity continues to forget Krishna and who 'we' really are, which is nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna eternally.

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (at least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

'Try to understand', as Prabhupada would say.

[Beggar]

 

... with their silly impersonal ideas that -

 

"We came from a plain sheet of consciousness from the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti", and that we were never before with Krsna (It's interesting to note that one discription of a Mayavadi is those who foolishly believe we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti) Anyway,

 

I will not go that far with Narayana Maharaj and Sridar Maharaj because, regardless of THEIR belief we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, their goals are to serve Krishna, so regardless of where they believe we came from, they are great devotees of Lord Krsna because that is who they now serve.

Note that "before" is an English word that describes material time. So why call exalted Vaisnava's "impersonal"? But at least you cleaned it up and then called them "great devotees"! But come on, how could great devotees be impersonal? It's all an effect of being lost in words that are helping to imprison us in material time. We must understand that the words themselves in the books are not the same as actually meeting Krsna, face to face. The siddhanta has many apparent contradictions that can all be harmonized with simultaneous oneness and difference. Within the siddhanta the acaryas had to use language albeit Sanskrit and Bangla, and much of the task is to harmonize contradictions. If there is always some free will for love to exist then how is it that the eternal associates of Krsna like the cowherd boys and girls have such exallted positions that they never "fall down" like us? Withing the duality of language this is actually quite a challenge to create such a siddhanta. And they were so merciful for they must have known that fools like us would be quarreling over things that are actually beyond us in the Kali Yuga future.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Note that "before" is an English word that describes material time. So why call exalted Vaisnava's "impersonal"? But at least you cleaned it up and then called them "great devotees"! But come on, how could great devotees be impersonal?.

 

Me old mate Beggar, how are you, anyway, how else would you describe those who believe we came from a inactive realm of consciousness they have interpret in the word tatastha?

It is them that say some marginal living entities have never been with Krishna or even to the mahat-tattva. Isn't that an impersonal origin? What else would you call 'a plain sheet of dormant consciousness' If that is what they believe, then the word 'impersonal' is correctly describing their belief of our origins - isn't this so??

And if you see the word 'before' as material time, then you also believe we long, long, long, long ago, even before we were a 'plain sheet of dormant individual spark of consciousness in the impersonal brahmajyoti', we MUST of been with Krishna in Goloka as OUR perpetual nitya-siddha body in the 'ETERNAL PRESENT'.

[Beggar]

 

What else would you call 'a plain sheet of dormant consciousness' If that is what they believe, then the word 'impersonal' is correctly describing their belief of our origins - isn't this so??

And if you see the word 'before' as material time, then you also believe we long, long, long, long ago, even before we were a 'plain sheet of dormant individual spark of consciousness in the impersonal brahmajyoti', we MUST of been with Krishna in Goloka as OUR perpetual nitya-siddha body in the 'ETERNAL PRESENT'.

The idea is that the brahmajyoti itself comes out from Krsna and His expansions such as Baladeva. So the source of the brahmajyoti is personal, although the brahmajyoti is sometimes called the impersonal aspect of Bhagavan (God). But the words expand, come out, manifest etc. are all from time based language. From the viewpoint beyond time is a different story, Mate. The tatastha origin concept was written by our acaryas to adjust to the fact that persons such as Srila Rupa Goswami and Sri Prabhupada never "falldown".

[Sarva gattah]

Nonsense, Tatastha is the discription of the marginal living entity or jiva, descibing their individuality as jiva-tattva which means one has the choice to serve Krishna as their eternal real identity as nitya-siddha, or enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu as their secondary mundane baddha-jiva consciousness, that by the way, is also a REAL JIVA, but a temporary conscious state of the JIVA or marginal living entity.

 

EVERY marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) has the propensity to fall down from Goloka due to free will and choice, but most CHOOSE to stay with Krishna as servant, and because of that choice, they are NOT slave or 'BORG' in a collective 'oneness of consciousness' as shown in the film 'STAR TREK'

 

 

 

 

A devotee of Krishna in robes 1968

 

[Kulapavana]

Brahmajyoti is never called 'impersonal' in sanskrit. It is sometimes called nirvisesa or UN-DIFFERENTIATED, a place of no distinctions, but such subtelties are lost on people with partisan and biased agenda. There is NOTHING impersonal about brahmajyoti, as it entirely consists of PERSONS, or individual jivas!

[shvu]

 

Brahmajyoti is never called 'impersonal' in sanskrit. It is sometimes called nirvisesa or UN-DIFFERENTIATED, a place of no distinctions, but such subtelties are lost on people with partisan and biased agenda. There is NOTHING impersonal about brahmajyoti, as it entirely consists of PERSONS, or individual jivas!

 

Just out of curiosity,

 

All the branches of Vedanta hold that Karma is beginnningless, but there is an end to this bondage in Moksha, which is irrereversible. This is also explicitly stated in the Gita where Krishna describes his abode as the "abode of no return".

 

But apparently some Prabhupada followers say it is possible to return from this abode and it is a matter of personal choice. My question is, other than this group, do we know of any other doctrine which holds a similiar position? Like the Vallabhas, Nimbarkas, etc.,?

 

Cheers

[Vigraha]

 

Me old mate Beggar, how are you, anyway, how else would you describe those who believe we came from a inactive realm of consciousness they have interpret in the word tatastha?

It is them that say some marginal living entities have never been with Krishna or even to the mahat-tattva. Isn't that an impersonal origin? What else would you call 'a plain sheet of dormant consciousness' If that is what they believe, then the word 'impersonal' is correctly describing their belief of our origins - isn't this so??

And if you see the word 'before' as material time, then you also believe we long, long, long, long ago, even before we were a 'plain sheet of dormant individual spark of consciousness in the impersonal brahmajyoti', we MUST of been with Krishna in Goloka as OUR perpetual nitya-siddha body in the 'ETERNAL PRESENT'. :deal: :deal:

 

For a person who simply wants to have liberation and to merge into the impersonal brahmajyoti, attachment to Kṛṣṇa is not possible to acquire.

This attachment is very confidentially kept by Kṛṣṇa and is bestowed only upon pure devotees. Even ordinary devotees cannot have such pure attachment for Kṛṣṇa.

Therefore, how is it possible for success to be achieved by persons whose hearts are contaminated by the actions and reactions of fruitive activities and who are entangled by various types of mental speculation?

There are many so-called devotees who artificially think of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes known as aṣṭa-kālīya-līlā. Sometimes one may artificially imitate these, pretending that Kṛṣṇa is talking with him in the form of a boy, or else one may pretend that Rādhārāṇī and Kṛṣṇa both have come to him and are talking with him.

The impersonalist class of men sometimes exhibits such characteristics, and they may captivate some innocent persons who have no knowledge in the science of devotional service.

However, as soon as an experienced devotee sees all of these caricatures, he can immediately evaluate such rascaldom. If such a pretender is sometimes seen possessing imitative attachment to Kṛṣṇa, that will not be accepted as real attachment.

It may be said, however, that such attachment gives the pretender hope that he may eventually rise onto the actual platform of pure devotional service.

This imitative attachment can be divided into two headings — namely, shadow attachment and parā (transcendental) attachment.

If someone, without undergoing the regulative principles of devotional service or without being guided by a bona fide spiritual master, shows such imitative attachment, this is called shadow attachment.

Sometimes it is found that a person actually attached to material enjoyment or salvation has the good fortune to associate with pure devotees while they are engaged in chanting the holy name of the Lord.

By the good grace of the Lord one may also cooperate and join in the chanting. At that time, simply by the association of such pure devotees, the moonlike rays from their hearts reflect on him, and by the influence of the pure devotees he may show some likeness of attachment caused by inquisitiveness, but this is very flickering.

And if by the manifestation of such shadow attachment one feels the disappearance of all material pangs, then it is called parā attachment.

Such shadow attachment or parā attachment can develop if one associates with a pure devotee or visits holy places like Vṛndāvana or Mathurā, and if an ordinary man develops such attachment for Kṛṣṇa and fortunately performs devotional activities in the association of pure devotees, he can also rise to the platform of pure devotional service.

The conclusion is that transcendental attachment is so powerful that if such attachment is seen manifested even in some common man, by the association of a pure devotee it can bring one to the perfectional stage.

But such attachment for Kṛṣṇa cannot be invoked in a person without his being sufficiently blessed by the association of pure devotees.

As the association of pure devotees can invoke attachment, so attachment can also be extinguished by offences committed at the lotus feet of pure devotees. To be more clear, by the association of pure devotees attachment for Kṛṣṇa can be aroused, but if one commits offences at the lotus feet of a devotee, one's shadow attachment or parā attachment can be extinguished.

This extinguishing is like the waning of the full moon, which gradually decreases and at last becomes dark. One should therefore be very careful while associating with pure devotees to guard against committing an offence at their lotus feet.

Transcendental attachment, either shadow or parā, can be nullified by different degrees of offences at the lotus feet of pure devotees. If the offences is very serious, then one's attachment becomes almost nil, and if the offence is not very serious, one's attachment can become second class or third class.

If someone becomes attached to the principles of salvation or to merging into the existence of the brahmajyoti, his ecstasies gradually diminish into shadow and parā attachment or else transform into the principles of ahańgrahopāsanā. This ahańgrahopāsanā describes a living entity when he begins spiritual realization by identifying himself with the Supreme Lord.

This state of self-realization is technically known as monism. The monist thinks himself one with the Supreme Lord. Thus, because he does not differentiate between himself and the Supreme Lord, it is his view that by worshiping himself he is worshiping the supreme whole.

Sometimes it is found that a neophyte is taking part in chanting and dancing very enthusiastically, but within himself he is under the impression that he has become one with the supreme whole.

This conception of monism is completely different from pure, transcendental devotional service. If, however, it is seen that a person has developed a high standard of devotion without having undergone even the regulative principles, it is to be understood that his status of devotional service was achieved in a former life.

For some reason or another it had been temporarily stopped, most probably by an offence committed at the lotus feet of a devotee. Now, with a good second chance, it has again begun to develop. The conclusion is that steady progress in devotional service can be attained only in the association of pure devotees.

If one can gradually advance his status in devotional service, this is understood to be due to the causeless mercy of Kṛṣṇa Himself. If a person is completely detached from material enjoyment and has developed pure ecstatic devotion, even if he is sometimes accidentally found not living up to the standard of devotional service, one should not be envious of him.

It is confirmed also in Bhagavad-gītā that a devotee who has unflinching faith in and devotion to the Lord, even if sometimes found to be accidentally deviated from pure devotional characteristics, should still be counted among the pure.

Unflinching faith in devotional service, in Lord Kṛṣṇa and in the spiritual master makes one highly elevated in the activities of devotional service.

In the Nṛsiḿha Purāṇa it is stated, "If a person has completely engaged his mind, body and activities in the service of the Supreme Godhead, but externally he is found to be engaged in some abominable activities, these abominable activities will surely be very quickly vanquished by the influence of his staunch devotional force."

The example is given that on the full moon there are some spots, which may appear to be pockmarks. Still, the illumination spread by the full moon cannot be checked.

Similarly, a little fault in the midst of volumes of devotional service is not at all to be counted as a fault. Attachment for Kṛṣṇa is transcendental bliss. Amid unlimited volumes of transcendental bliss, a spot of some material defect cannot act in any way. Chapter 18: Character of One in Ecstatic Love Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Nectar of Devotion

[Sarva gattah]

Tatastha is the discription of the marginal living entity or jiva, descibing their individuality as jiva-tattva which means one has the choice to serve Krishna as their eternal real identity as nitya-siddha, or enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu as their secondary mundane baddha-jiva consciousness, that by the way, is also real, but a temporary conscious state of the marginal living entity.

EVERY marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) has the propensity to fall down from Goloka due to free will and choice, but most CHOOSE to stay with Krishna as servant, and because of that choice, they are NOT slave or 'BORG' in a collective 'oneness of consciousness' as shown in the film 'STAR TREK'

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Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) as well as the impersonal Brahmajyoti from where some wrongly say we originate from as a plain sheet of consciousness."

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personally told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu."

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence"

 

Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatastha's (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independant and eternally have free will. This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "In Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi 5.142) it is said, ekale isvara krsna, ara saba bhrtya: the only supreme master is Krsna, and all others, both visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva, engage in the service of the Lord. Both the visnu-tattva (as Nityananda Prabhu and Advaita) and the jiva-tattva (srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrnda) engage in the service of the Lord, but one must distinguish between the visnu-tattva servitors and the jiva-tattva servitors."

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then"?

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. ". 69-10-27 letter sent from John Lennon’s Estate Tittenhurst (Temporary Temple in 1969)

 

The nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna.

 

The nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness is actively within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the jiva-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels so one can actively act out their nonsensical dreams within His mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

•  

  Or is conditioned outside the Vaikuntha realm and outside the active mahat-tattva, within an Impersonal inactive dormant jiva-baddha dreamless condition known as the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman, where an unlimited number of 'jiva-baddhas' remain in that dormant state that appears and expands (due to souls constanly being liberated from the mahat-tattva) as an individual collective of living light particles, not aware of past, present and future.

  
  

 

 

As already explained, Srila Prabhupada has told us that the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay.

 

 

 

 

Both are temporary conditions because the DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada has further explained that the marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya baddha, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because all marginal living entities are always nitya-siddha, they only DREAM they are nitya baddha.

 

 

 

 

The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternally ones genuine identity perpetually.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is clearly telling us that the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and is given material ethereal and biological bodily facilities or vessels that make such dreams a temporary reality

 

 

 

 

However, they are subject to decay and are transitory.

 

Anyway, lets be clear, ITS IS NOT OFFENSIVE TO CALL A SPADE A SPADE, how else would you describe those who believe we came from a inactive realm of consciousness they have interpret in the word tatastha.

Tatastha really means the jiva-tattva or the marginal independant living entity and their ability to choose between the superior and inferior energies

 

 

It is them in the Gaudiya Matha and even some pockets within ISKCON, that WRONGLY say SOME marginal living entities have never been with Krishna or even to the mahat-tattva. Isn't that an impersonal origin? What else would you call 'a plain sheet of dormant consciousness other than impersonal??'

 

 

If that is what they believe, then the word 'impersonal' is correctly describing their belief of our origins - isn't this so??

 

 

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[Beggar]

 

EVERY marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) has the propensity to fall down from Goloka due to free will and choice, but most CHOOSE to stay with Krishna as servant, and because of that choice, they are NOT slave or 'BORG' in a collective 'oneness of consciousness' as shown in the film 'STAR TREK'

 

The nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna.

 

If I'm not mistaken you have declared several times previously that there is no real fall as per your second quote, above. This has always been your rationale for the Prabhupada quote from from S.B. that, "nobody falls from Vaikuntha". Herein lies the real difference. I believe that from the real sastric view that whenever the fall is described that it is said to be from the border line between the material and spirtitual worlds. Then again there is also the viewpoint from eternity that the fall is illusory and dreamlike. Now it seems that Srila Prabhupada has given three viewpoints. The one that is separate from the ones I just noted is sometimes given like this:

Srila Prabhupada:

"Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. ".

69-10-27 letter sent from John Lennon’s Estate Tittenhurst (Temporary Temple in 1969)

Yet in other places he has said that they may have the potential to give up Krsna's service but they never choose in that way. So in other words the quote from the Tittenhurst Estate letter has been given by Srila Prabhupada to emphasize the free nature of Krsna prema, that without freedom, love does not exist. I do believe that to emphasize this point to his fledgling neophytes that his was willing to take some liberties with the strict siddhanta. The danger was that in the future some would misunderstand this and use these quotes to attack certain parts of the siddhanta which they mistakenly believe to be impersonal; and that somehow this impersonal conception is some kind of conspiracy hatched by Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers. Nothing could be further from the truth and in fact such a viewpoint is both divisive and offensive. The answer to all our questions has been given in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur's Jaiva Dharma and there are now several versions available. There is enough in Jaiva Dharma to stop all the dissension and quarrel over this subject and satisfy all concerned parties.

 

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

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EVERY marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) has the propensity to fall down (CONSCIOUSLY) from Goloka due to free will and choice, but most CHOOSE to stay with Krishna as servant, and because of that choice, they are NOT slave or 'BORG' in a collective 'oneness of consciousness' as shown in the film 'STAR TREK'

 

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Lets make it very clear, 'fall down' from Krsnaloka means 'conscious' fall down and not bodily falldown..

 

It is not possible to fall down as one's nitya-siddha body because of the nature of the 'eternal present', which means what is in Krsnaloka is always their and never leaves.

 

This clearly also means yours and my eternal bodily form is there right now in Krsnaloka, even though we are 'consciously' in the mahat-tattva covered by the subtle and gross material vessels, under the spell of the mahat-tattva's past. present and future.

 

Srila Prabhupada: "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

[Kulapavana]

 

But apparently some Prabhupada followers say it is possible to return from this abode and it is a matter of personal choice. My question is, other than this group, do we know of any other doctrine which holds a similiar position? Like the Vallabhas, Nimbarkas, etc.,?

 

 

Not that I know of. The idea that you can fall from a direct personal relationship with Bhagavan is unthinkable for pretty much all Vaishnava schools I ever came across. The issue of 'free choice' is not an excuse to promote such an idea. When you are in love, you have a free choice to leave your love, but why would anyone want to do that?

[Ashvatama]

Your all chewing the chewed, EVERYTHING is explained HERE (BELOW) found on another thread on the indiadivine audarya web site

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

This is how His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada explains this to us.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being a nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna, MEANS never falling down.

However, he is also saying that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over by the choice to imagine OR DREAM your own existence without Krishna.

Just like one may go into a daydream in their present material body and dream oneself to be a King, while in the meantime their 'dreaming' material body has not moved.

In this way Srila Prabhupada is saying that ALL nitya siddha’s can be covered over ONLY, and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddha, just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds.

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

The secret of understanding this is also found in realizing what the ‘ETERNAL PRESENT’ is in the face of divided material time of PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. Thus, it is important to understand that ones ‘AWARENESS’ can be in EITHER Krsnaloka or the maha-tattva AT ONE TIME ONLY and NEVER both at the same time however, the paradox is, even when ones ‘awareness’ is in the mahat-tattva as the baddha-jiva, ones perpetual nitya-siddha body is secured and protected eternally within the eternal presents of Krsnaloka

In fact most devotees in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha be covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious dream state.

Therefore, most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha.

Such inconceivable statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate % of a % in an endless Spiritual creation?

So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine and dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY. Most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore, it is due to the cloud covering we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or nitya-baddha consciousness.

This cloud covering is all we are aware off because it has blocked out the sun. We are not able to see the sun shinning due to the cloud covering the sun. The sun is still there, just as our nitya-siddha body is there in Goloka however; it is not realized because of the cloud cover therefore, we are nitya-baddha.

We can’t be nitya-siddha at this time because we cannot see or be aware of that covered identity.

Therefore, our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha and remains so until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires by replacing them with devotional Krishna Conscious desires.

Then gradually the cloud cover or nitya-baddha dreaming condition is dissipated revealing the sun or our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity eternally serving Krishna.

 

EVERY marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) has the propensity to fall down from Goloka due to free will and choice, but most CHOOSE to stay with Krishna as servant, and because of that choice, they are NOT slave or 'BORG' in a collective 'oneness of consciousness' as shown in the film 'STAR TREK'

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[Kulapavana]

Sleeper-vada:

I am nitya-siddha, you are nitya-siddha, we are all nitya-siddha. Why do I not feel like a nitya-siddha now? because you just don't know you are a nitya-siddha.

 

Maya-vada:

I am God, you are God, we are all God. Why do I not feel like God now? because you just don't know you are God.

[Svarupa]

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In this way Srila Prabhupada is CLEARLY saying and is explaining the essence of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, that ALL nitya siddha’s can be covered over and ONLY the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddha, just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds.

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

The secret of understanding this is also found in realizing what the ‘ETERNAL PRESENT’ is in the face of divided material time of PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. Thus, it is important to understand that ones ‘AWARENESS’ can be in EITHER Krsnaloka or the maha-tattva AT ONE TIME ONLY and NEVER both at the same time however, the paradox is, even when ones ‘awareness’ is in the mahat-tattva as the baddha-jiva, ones perpetual nitya-siddha body is secured and protected eternally within the eternal presents of Krsnaloka

In fact most devotees in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha be covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious dream state.

Therefore, most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha.

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[suchandra]

 

Not that I know of. The idea that you can fall from a direct personal relationship with Bhagavan is unthinkable for pretty much all Vaishnava schools I ever came across. The issue of 'free choice' is not an excuse to promote such an idea. When you are in love, you have a free choice to leave your love, but why would anyone want to do that?

Great Vaishnava Acaryas actually teach that all the living entities who are presently transmigrating within this universe came into this universe at the time when this universe was created. This span of time is so huge that it is said that we're eternally conditioned. Coming now to the state of gradually understanding that we are in the material world since time immemorial is so special, that the great Acaryas comment this with, please, in this situation of real spiritual joy, don't ask this question, how did I come here? Symptom and mood of a real Vaishnava, he doesn't ask, how did we fall.

 

Friday, February 2, 1968

Los Angeles, Calif.

My Dear Purusottama,

Please accept my blessings. I am so glad to receive your letter and I have noted the contents carefully.

Krishna is so sublime and transcendental that He cannot be realized by mental speculation or by personal endeavor, education, or material acquisition. He can only be approached and understood clearly by our service attitude, engaging all our senses in His service. The beginning of service is to engage our hearing organs, and receive the transcendental message by aural reception.

And whenever we are mature in receiving the transcendental message from books like Bhagavad-gita, and Srimad-Bhagavatam, via media the transparent bona fide Spiritual Master, then we are able to chant or engage our tongue in the service of the Lord, being engaged in the service of the Lord.

The material covering of our senses becomes inactive and actual spiritual form of activity becomes manifest. I very much appreciate your development of this spiritual perception, and Krishna has given you a good chance in the matter of your proposed dealings with the U.N. Please immediately finish the job by incorporating our association in the U.N. It is a very good opportunity. Consult Brahmananda and do it immediately.

In the future, we will have very great scope for introducing our Krishna Consciousness for leaders amongst all the nations. I think it is a very great opportunity for us, and we should utilize it.