Fall Theory=Mayavada?

[Sarva gattah]

 

maya-vada:

I am God, you are God, we are all God. Why do I not feel like God now? because you just don't know you are God.

 

 

Maybe God spelt backwards

 

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The Mayavadis see EVERYTHING as illusion (I am u, you are me and we are all together) and in this way claim to be God. And foolishly thinks the soul originates from a plain sheet of impersonal consciousness

 

Devotees of Krishna on the other hand, see everthing as a REAL creation of the Lord where Vaikuntha is the permanant devotional autocratic aspect of Krishna's creation, while the inferior Mahat-tattva (material creation) is the impermanant forever changing, fading and decaying aspect of His wonderful creation.

 

Both are real however, Vaikuntha is imperishable while the mahat-tattva is perishable.

 

In other words the material creation is very REAL but is

temporary

 

In the Spiritual Sky there is a cloud that is very real but is always in a state of decay, this is where we, themarginal living entity, can go if we choose to not serve Krishna however, because of the 'eternal presents' of Vaikuntha, we can never leave to enjoy seperately as our nitya-siddha perpetual bodily self, who we really are within the 'eternal present'.

 

We therefore enter the mahat-tattva cloud in a secondary conscious state (nitya-baddha-jiva soul that a REAL projected consciouness that is 10,000th the tip of hair) that is compared to dreaming, but this self centred dream, unlike the dream state of ones biological body, is very real but expressed in an atmosphere of eternal decay (the maha-tattva)

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj

Subjective Evolution of Consciousness

Pg. 24,25:

 

The soul, when going to experience any material conception,

will have to pass through a medium which influences

his consciousness to see things as material. What is concrete

matter is unknown. It is a mere effect of consciousness. As

everything material must have some conscious origin, or

origin in personal consciousness, there must be a personal

conception of the sun, the moon, the Earth, and all the

planets. Before we reach the conception of a shadow or any

other object, the soul has to pass through a conscious stage.

That stage has some spiritual existence as a person. There-

fore the Bhågavatam refers to the sun, the moon, and the

planet Råhu, as persons. Everything – the Earth, the moon,

the stars, the planets – has a personal conception. In the

background of what we can perceive with our dull senses,

everything that is said to be matter, there must be a personal

conception. Without the influence of a personal conception,

consciousness cannot reach the stage of gross matter.

Therefore, in the ancient scriptures we find that the

great sages and rishis are always addressing everything within

this world as a person. Although to us it is dead matter, they

have considered them as persons. Why? The matter is

rather the shadow of the personal entity. The personal,

conscious entity is more real, and the matter we perceive

through dimmed consciousness is less real.

 

Gaudiya Vaisnava's therefore see nothing as impersonal.

Srila Prabhupada only uses the term, "impersonal brahmajyoti"

to discourage those who still have a desire to merge with God.

From a higher perspective the brahmajyoti is the effulgence of the

Supreme Personality of Godhead and this is the vision of all personalist

Vaisnavas. Only those with an ulterior movtive would suggest anything

less. Their misguided motive is to glorify Prabhupada by tearing down

the reputation of one of his most dear, exalted and esteemed

godbrothers. Such a strategy is surely a folly and if the perpetrators

were not still in an extremely immature stage of Krsna Consciousness

such an offense would have grave consequences on their devotional

creeper.

[Svarupa]

 

Narayana Maharaj and Sridar Maharaj, regardless of THEIR belief we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, their goals are to serve Krishna, so regardless of where they believe we came from, they are great devotees of Lord Krsna because that is who they serve.

 

I have understood on this forum, along with recent debates I have had in Vrndavana, that there are two types of devotees in this philosophical regard,

 

1. Those who believe we came from Goloka,

 

2. And those who believe we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

And that will never change while we are in the mundane world of past, present and future.

 

The good point about both camps is service to Lord Caitanya and that they often will come together for the greater purpose of preaching and Sankirtan, with the higher goal in mind of getting ALL the fallen souls to return back home back to Godhead

'Try to understand work together', as Prabhupada would say.

 

 

 

All glorious to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

He says -

'come together over Me'

 

 

 

 

Hare Krishna Maha Mantra.

LISTEN | DOWLOAD

 

[madhucando]

"[...]It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha.[...]"(Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

[Sarva gattah]

 

"It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha."(Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

 

 

Yes, that is exactly right as very clearly explained as follows

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave.

That dream state consciousness is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada – “When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of dualityand come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?"

 

Srila Prabhupada's answer -"The souls are endowed with minute independence (the ability to choose) as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence". 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

Actually, you ARE a pure devotee RIGHT NOW, WE ALL ARE but we have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment”. Washington D.C., July 8, 1976 760708ED.WDC

Srila Prabhupada - "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer." Also: "The vibbhinamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

Srila Prabhupada - "If you fall down from the platform, then it is your fault. Just like we are all in the Vaikuntha planet. Now, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, "Go back to home, back to Godhead." Lecture Srimad-Bhagavatam 1975 750522SB.MEL

Srila Prabhupada - “We have given up the company of Krsna, and we wanted to be happy in this material world. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972 720928SB.LA

Also it should be made clearly that Maya has nothing to do with one FIRST forgetting Krsna and their nitya-siddha perpetual bodily identity and 'sub-consciously' falling to the material world because She (Maya-s'akti) does not exist in that role in Vaikuntha.

The answer is quite simple - it is the choice of the living entity, it is free will, the ability to be with Krishna as their eternal nitya-siddha body (who they really are) or drop out and do their own thing with the provisions provided by Krishna's expansion Maha-Vishnu

Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

[Beggar]

 

"[...]It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha.[...]"(Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

 

 

Yes, that is exactly right as very clearly explained as follows

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave.

 

But in post #18 of this thread Sarva gatta writes:

 

 

EVERY marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) has the propensity to fall down from Goloka due to free will and choice, but most CHOOSE to stay with Krishna as servant, and because of that choice, they are NOT slave or 'BORG' in a collective 'oneness of consciousness' as shown in the film 'STAR TREK'

 

Now he could in his defense claim, simultaneous oneness and difference, but I don't see that working in this instance. In one post he tells us that Srila Prabhupada's famous no fall statement is alluding to the dreaming condition of baddha jivas but then in the previous post he claims that one may fall down from the highest Vaikuntha planet. As the old adage says, "you can't have your cake and eat it too".

[Sarva gattah]

 

But in post #18 of this thread Sarva gatta writes:

"EVERY marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) has the propensity to fall down from Goloka due to free will and choice"

Why don't you read my posts?

 

Srila Prabhupada – “When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of dualityand come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

 

Here we are told our fall down is one of 'consciousness and NOT SVARUPA body

 

The fact is no-one falls down from Krshnaloka, the top most planet from where we are all from because our eternal nitya-siddha body, of whom is our real eternal permanant identity, NEVER EVER FALLS DOWN

HOWEVER, we 'CONSCIOUSLY' fall.

Do you understand?

The fall down from Krsnaloka is NOT a bodily fall down but rather a 'CONSCIOUSNESS' fall down.

WE, as who we really are in our eternal spiritual svarupa body, NEVER falls down however, we can FORGET, due to free will and choose, who we really are, our real eternal body (like in a dream) and enter the mahat-tattva or material world.

 

THIS IS WHAT FALL DOWN FROM KRSHNALOKA REALLLY MEANS, IT IS SIMPLY A FALL DOWN IN CONSCIOUSNESS, NOT IN SPIRITUAL BODY

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave.

That dream state consciousness is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada – “When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of dualityand come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

[bija]

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by shvu

But apparently some Prabhupada followers say it is possible to return from this abode and it is a matter of personal choice. My question is, other than this group, do we know of any other doctrine which holds a similiar position? Like the Vallabhas, Nimbarkas, etc.,?

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Not that I know of. The idea that you can fall from a direct personal relationship with Bhagavan is unthinkable for pretty much all Vaishnava schools I ever came across. The issue of 'free choice' is not an excuse to promote such an idea. When you are in love, you have a free choice to leave your love, but why would anyone want to do that? by kulapavana

 

I am replying here also to Sarva's above post.

 

If we are marginal shakti....does not that mean we are eternally marginal. Or is Sri Krsna's shakti subject to change (not the supreme constant)?

 

I dont follow transformation of shakti theory (which is refuted by the Sri Caitanya discourse to the Varanasi Mayavadis CC adi chapter 7). Simply we serve the internal shakti (ie Sri Radha etc) or we serve external shakti.

 

Could it be that we once served internal shakti, but due to our minute nature were prone to fall. Maybe we were never situated as internal shakti entities (ie Sri Radha and the gopies), but simply servants in constitution to Them. Could our dilemna have arisen due to dis-satisfaction of being eternally marginal potency - our inherent nature (constitution).

 

Could we have developed this dis-satisfaction due to a type of envy caused by, not being in full knowledge/minute in constitutional knowledge, and not being fully mature in the science of love?

 

After this experience of fall, when we again are re-instated in service we become a 'more stable particle', to use a chemistry analogy?

 

Srila Prabhupada – “When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of dualityand come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53 posted by Sarva

Because we are conscious sparks we could process awareness and knowledge. As conscious sparks we feel, so felt lack. Where infact, there was never any inadequacy or lack, because as marginal shakti we are a part of the Supreme Whole - even though we are marginal jiva shakti. Through our experience of fall we mature in conscious awareness. Consciousness is ever-new for it is a development of love based on freedom. This is the way I see the Supreme Personailty Whole. Summum Bonum. Through our development of conscious love we at some stage accept that we are marginal, and that real love is to serve Sri Radha and Her associates, we become satisfied and accepting of the diverse energies of God. This diverse energy is infact the beauty and inconceivable charm of a Conscious Personality of Godhead, of which we as marginal shakti are a part.

 

To me this is the very essence of diversity in the Supreme Personality, He is all things....unlimited shakti simply described as internal, marginal, and external. Simply described for the benefit of our liberation - as minute sparks we need simple.

 

 

Posted by Beggar

Srila Sridhar Maharaj

Subjective Evolution of Consciousness

Pg. 24,25:

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> The soul, when going to experience any material conception,

will have to pass through a medium which influences

his consciousness to see things as material. What is concrete

matter is unknown. It is a mere effect of consciousness. As

everything material must have some conscious origin, or

origin in personal consciousness, there must be a personal

conception of the sun, the moon, the Earth, and all the

planets. Before we reach the conception of a shadow or any

other object, the soul has to pass through a conscious stage.

That stage has some spiritual existence as a person. There-

fore the Bhågavatam refers to the sun, the moon, and the

planet Råhu, as persons. Everything – the Earth, the moon,

the stars, the planets – has a personal conception. In the

background of what we can perceive with our dull senses,

everything that is said to be matter, there must be a personal

conception. Without the influence of a personal conception,

consciousness cannot reach the stage of gross matter.

Therefore, in the ancient scriptures we find that the

great sages and rishis are always addressing everything within

this world as a person. Although to us it is dead matter, they

have considered them as persons. Why? The matter is

rather the shadow of the personal entity. The personal,

conscious entity is more real, and the matter we perceive

through dimmed consciousness is less real.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[bija]

http://causelessmercy.com/Adi7.6.htm

 

CC Adi 7 TEXT 113

cid-ānanda——teṅho, tāṅra sthāna, parivāra

tāṅre kahe——prākṛta-sattvera vikāra

 

SYNONYMS

cit-ānanda—spiritual bliss; teṅho—He is personally; tāṅra—His; sthāna—abode; parivāra—entourage; tāṅre—unto Him; kahe—someone says; prākṛta—material; sattvera—goodness; vikāra—transformation.

 

TRANSLATION

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is full of spiritual potencies. Therefore His body, name, fame and entourage are all spiritual. The Māyāvādī philosopher, due to ignorance, says that these are all merely transformations of the material mode of goodness.

 

PURPORT

In the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā the Supreme Personality of Godhead has classified His energies in two distinct divisions—namely, prākṛta and aprākṛta, or parā-prakṛti and aparā-prakṛti. In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa the same distinction is made. The Māyāvādī philosophers cannot understand these two prakṛtis, or natures—material and spiritual—but one who is actually intelligent can understand them. Considering the many varieties and activities in material nature, why should the Māyāvādī philosophers deny the spiritual varieties of the spiritual world? The Bhāgavatam (10.2.32) says:

ye ’nye ’ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas

tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ

 

 

The intelligence of those who think themselves liberated but have no information of the spiritual world is not yet clear. In this verse the term aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ refers to unclean intelligence. Due to unclean intelligence or a poor fund of knowledge, the Māyāvādī philosophers cannot understand the distinction between material and spiritual varieties; therefore they cannot even think of spiritual varieties because they take it for granted that all variety is material.

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, therefore, explains in this verse that Kṛṣṇa—the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or the Absolute Truth—has a spiritual body that is distinct from material bodies, and thus His name, abode, entourage and qualities are all spiritual. The material mode of goodness has nothing to do with spiritual varieties. Māyāvādī philosophers, however, cannot clearly understand spiritual varieties; therefore they imagine a negation of the material world to be the spiritual world. The material qualities of goodness, passion and ignorance cannot act in the spiritual world, which is therefore called nirguṇa, as clearly indicated in the Bhagavad-gītā (trai-guṇya-viṣayā vedā nistrai-guṇyo bhavārjuna). The material world is a manifestation of the three modes of material nature, but one has to become free from these modes to come to the spiritual world, where their influence is completely absent. Now Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu will disassociate Lord Śiva from Māyāvāda philosophy in the following verse.

[bija]

 

If we are marginal shakti....does not that mean we are eternally marginal. Or is Sri Krsna's shakti subject to change (not the supreme constant)? posted by bija

We must question if we are marginal potency, then how are we spiritual potency?

http://causelessmercy.com/Adi7.7.htm

TEXT 118

apareyam itas tv anyāṁ

prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām

jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho

yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat

 

 

SYNONYMS

aparā—inferior energy; iyam—this material world; itaḥ—beyond this; tu—but; anyām—another; prakṛtim—energy; viddhi—you must know; me—of Me; parām—which is superior energy; jīva-bhūtām—they are the living entities; mahā-bāho—O mighty-armed; yayā—by which; idam—this material world; dhāryate—is being conducted; jagat—the cosmic manifestation.

 

 

TRANSLATION

“‘Besides these inferior energies, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.’

 

 

PURPORT

In the Bhagavad-gītā it is explained that the five elements earth, water, fire, air and ether constitute the gross energy of the Absolute Truth and that there are also three subtle energies, namely, the mind, intelligence and false ego, or identification with the phenomenal world. Thus the entire cosmic manifestation is divided into eight energies, all of which are inferior. As explained in the Bhagavad-gītā (mama māyā duratyayā), the inferior energy, known as māyā, is so strong that although the living entity does not belong to this energy, due to the superior strength of the inferior energy the living entity (jīva-bhūta) forgets his real position and identifies with it. Kṛṣṇa says distinctly that beyond the material energy there is a superior energy which is known as the jīva-bhūta, or living entities. When in contact with the material energy, this superior energy conducts all the activities of the entire material, phenomenal world.

The supreme cause is Kṛṣṇa (janmādy asya yataḥ [Bhāg. 1.1.1]), who is the origin of all energies, which work variously. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has both inferior and superior energies, and the difference between them is that the superior energy is factual whereas the inferior energy is a reflection of the superior. A reflection of the sun in a mirror or on water appears to be the sun but is not. Similarly, the material world is but a reflection of the spiritual world. Although it appears to be factual, it is not; it is only a temporary reflection, whereas the spiritual world is a factual reality. The material world, with its gross and subtle forms, is merely a reflection of the spiritual world.

The living entity is not a product of the material energy; he is spiritual energy, but in contact with matter he forgets his identity. Thus the living entity identifies himself with matter and enthusiastically engages in material activities in the guises of a technologist, scientist, philosopher, etc. He does not know that he is not at all a material product but is spiritual. His real identity thus being lost, he struggles very hard in the material world, and the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is trying to revive his original consciousness. His activities in manufacturing big skyscrapers are evidence of intelligence, but this kind of intelligence is not at all advanced. He should know that his only real concern is how to get free from material contact, for by absorbing his mind in material activities he takes material bodies again and again, and although he falsely claims to be very intelligent, in material consciousness he is not at all intelligent. When we speak about the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, which is meant to make people intelligent, the conditioned living entity therefore misunderstands it. He is so engrossed in the material concept of life that he does not think there can be any activities that are actually based on intelligence beyond the construction of skyscrapers and big roads and the manufacturing of cars. This is proof of māyayāpahṛta-jñāna, or loss of all intelligence due to the influence of māyā. When a living entity is freed from such misconceptions, he is called liberated. When one is actually liberated he no longer identifies with the material world. The symptom of mukti (liberation) is that one engages in spiritual activities instead of falsely engaging in material activities.

Transcendental loving devotional service is the spiritual activity of the spirit soul. Māyāvādī philosophers confuse such spiritual activity with material activity, but the Bhagavad-gītā (14.26) confirms:

māṁ ca yo ’vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

 

 

One who engages in the spiritual activities of unalloyed devotional service (avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti) is immediately elevated to the transcendental platform, and he is to be considered brahma-bhūta, which indicates that he is no longer in the material world but is in the spiritual world. Devotional service is enlightenment, or awakening. When the living entity perfectly performs spiritual activities under the direction of the spiritual master, he becomes perfect in knowledge and understands that he is not God but a servant of God. As explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīvera ‘svarūpa’ haya—kṛṣṇera ‘nitya-dāsa’: the real identity of the living entity is that he is an eternal servant of the Supreme (Cc. Madhya 20.108). As long as one does not come to this conclusion, he must be in ignorance. This is also confirmed by the Lord in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.19): bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate . . . sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. “After many births of struggling for existence and cultivating knowledge, when one comes to the point of real knowledge he surrenders unto Me. Such an advanced mahātmā, or great soul, is very rarely to be seen.” Thus although the Māyāvādī philosophers appear to be very much advanced in knowledge, they are not yet perfect. To come to the point of perfection they must voluntarily surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

 

 

 

Adi7.119

TEXT 119

viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā proktā

kṣetra-jñākhyā tathā parā

avidyā-karma-saṁjñānyā

tṛtīyā śaktir iṣyate

 

 

SYNONYMS

viṣṇu-śaktiḥ—the potency of Lord Viṣṇu; parā—spiritual; proktā—it is said; kṣetra-jña-ākhyā—the potency known as kṣetra-jña; tathā—as well as; parā—spiritual; avidyā—ignorance; karma—fruitive activities; saṁjñā—known as; anyā—other; tṛtīyā—third; śaktiḥ—potency; iṣyate—known thus.

 

 

TRANSLATION

“‘The potency of Lord Viṣṇu is summarized in three categories—namely, the spiritual potency, the living entities and ignorance. The spiritual potency is full of knowledge; the living entities, although belonging to the spiritual potency, are subject to bewilderment; and the third energy, which is full of ignorance, is always visible in fruitive activities.’

 

PURPORT

This is a quotation from the Viṣṇu Purāṇa (6.7.61).

In the previous verse, quoted from the Bhagavad-gītā, it has been established that the living entities are to be categorized among the Lord’s potencies. The Lord is potent, and there are varieties of potencies (parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate). Now, in this quotation from the Viṣṇu Purāṇa, this is further confirmed. There are varieties of potencies, and they have been divided into three categories—namely, spiritual, marginal and external.

The spiritual potency is manifested in the spiritual world. Kṛṣṇa’s form, qualities, activities and entourage are all spiritual. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (4.5):

ajo ’pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro ’pi san

prakṛtiṁ svām adhiṣṭhāya sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā

[Bg. 4.6]

 

 

“Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all living entities, by My spiritual potency I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.” Ātma-māyā refers to the spiritual potency. When Kṛṣṇa comes to this or any other universe, He does so with His spiritual potency. We take birth by the force of the material potency, but as stated here with reference to the Viṣṇu Purāṇa, the kṣetra-jña, or living entity, belongs to the spiritual potency; thus when we free ourselves from the clutches of the material potency we can also enter the spiritual world.

The material potency is the energy of darkness, or complete ignorance of spiritual activities. In the material potency, the living entity engages himself in fruitive activities, thinking that he can be happy through expansion in terms of material energy. This fact is prominently manifest in this Age of Kali because human society, not understanding the spiritual nature, is busily expanding in material activities. The men of the present day are almost unaware of their spiritual identity. They think that they are products of the elements of the material world and that everything will end with the annihilation of the body. Therefore they conclude that as long as one has a material body consisting of material senses, one should enjoy the senses as much as possible. Since they are atheists, they do not care whether there is a next life. Such activities are described in this verse as avidyā-karma-saṁjñānyā.

The material energy is separated from the spiritual energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thus although it is originally created by the Supreme Lord, He is not actually present within it. The Lord also confirms in the Bhagavad-gītā (9.4), mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni: “Everything is resting on Me.” This indicates that everything is resting on His own energy. For example, the planets are resting within outer space, which is the separated energy of Kṛṣṇa. The Lord explains in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.4):

bhūmir āpo ’nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca

ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā

 

 

“Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.” The separated energy acts as if it were independent, but here it is said that although such energies are certainly factual, they are not independent but merely separated.

The separated energy can be understood from a practical example. I compose books by speaking into a dictaphone, and when the dictaphone is replayed, it appears that I am speaking personally, but actually I am not. I spoke personally, but then the dictaphone tape, which is separate from me, acts exactly like me. Similarly, the material energy originally emanates from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but it acts separately, although the energy is supplied by the Lord. This is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā (9.10): mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram. “This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings.” Under the guidance or superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the material energy works as if independent, although it is not actually independent.

In this verse from the Viṣṇu Purāṇa the total energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is classified in three divisions—namely, the spiritual or internal potency of the Lord, the marginal potency, or kṣetra-jña (the living entity), and the material potency, which is separated from the Supreme Personality of Godhead and appears to act independently. When Śrīla Vyāsadeva, by meditation and self-realization, saw the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he also saw the separated energy of the Lord standing behind Him (apaśyat puruṣaṁ pūrṇaṁ māyāṁ ca tad-apāśrayam). Vyāsadeva also realized that it is this separated energy of the Lord, the material energy, that covers the knowledge of the living entities (yayā sammohito jīva ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam). The separated, material energy bewilders the living entities (jīvas), and thus they work very hard under its influence, not knowing that they are not fulfilling their mission in life. Unfortunately, most of them think that they are the body and should therefore enjoy the material senses irresponsibly since when death comes everything will be finished. This atheistic philosophy also flourished in India, where it was sometimes propagated by Cārvāka Muni, who said:

ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet yāvaj jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet

bhasmī-bhūtasya dehasya kutaḥ punar āgamano bhavet

 

 

His theory was that as long as one lives one should eat as much ghee as possible. In India, ghee (clarified butter) is a basic ingredient in preparing many varieties of food. Since everyone wants to enjoy nice food, Cārvāka Muni advised that one eat as much ghee as possible. One may say, “I have no money. How shall I purchase ghee?” Cārvāka Muni, however, says, “If you have no money, then beg, borrow or steal, but in some way secure ghee and enjoy life.” For one who further objects that he will be held accountable for such unauthorized activities as begging, borrowing and stealing, Cārvāka Muni replies, “You will not be held responsible. As soon as your body is burned to ashes after death, everything is finished.”

This is called ignorance. From the Bhagavad-gītā it is understood that one does not die with the annihilation of his body (na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]). The annihilation of one body involves changing to another (tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ). Therefore, to perform irresponsible activities in the material world is very dangerous. Without knowledge of the spirit soul and its transmigration, people are allured by the material energy to engage in many such activities, as if one could become happy simply by dint of material knowledge, without reference to spiritual existence. Therefore the entire material world and its activities are referred to as avidyā-karma-saṁjñānyā.

In order to dissipate the ignorance of the human beings who work under the material energy, which is separated from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Lord comes down to revive their original nature of spiritual activities (yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]). As soon as they deviate from their original nature, the Lord comes to teach them, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: “My dear living entities, give up all material activities and simply surrender unto Me for protection.” (Bg. 18.66)

It is the statement of Cārvāka Muni that one should beg, borrow or steal money to purchase ghee and enjoy life (ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet). Thus even the greatest atheist of India recommends that one eat ghee, not meat. No one could conceive of human beings’ eating meat like tigers and dogs, but men have become so degraded that they are just like animals and can no longer claim to have a human civilization.

[suchandra]

[Sarva gattah]

We do not evolve in 'consciousness' to the Krsnaloka realm, with the foolish idea we have never been to Krsnaloka. Srila Prabhupada also clearly rejected that idea as impersonal because we are actually already there in Krsnaloka and ALWAYS have been.

How is that possible??

It is a fact that we are ALL ALREADY in Krsnaloka in our FULL eternal Krsna Conscious state as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body. However, presently that 'AWARENESS' is covered by our selfish non-Krsna conscious desires. We therefore cannot see and act in that fully eternally developed consciousness of who WE really are because of our choice and free will to forget Krsna (which means we also forget the body we serva Krsna as).

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are.

We do not grow consciously out of a plainsheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or reestablishing who we are originally.

In the material creation, We are simply in the process of recovering who we really are

Even if we did fall out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti, then long, long, long before that we were ALL in Krsnaloka in full 'awareness' of our real permanant imperishable bodily nitya-siddha identity, that is eternally established within the 'eternal present' devoid of past and future, atmosphere of Krsnaloka or the Kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada – "When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated.Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud .. You are ever-liberated

[bija]

Love is dynamic and grows eternally. I do not hold to the theory that we were impersonal, at any stage. As you say we have an eternally liberated body, we just need to realize it. This material body is a shadow.

 

To deny the ever-new dynamic of love is to deny relationship of two. I am in no way implying evolution of some 'body' coming from a void or impersonal realm on the way to Krsna loka.

 

Our spiritual body is eternally a servant of the servants of the servants of Srimate Radharani. Bliss. Realizing this awakens us to rasa, which is ever-new relationship. Maybe next time if we are fortunate we will not turn away. Or as you say Sarva - sleep. At some point we realize there is no bliss in maya shakti, the only reason there appears to be is because of the presence of consciousness.

 

As minute jiva-shakti we are always dependant. Infact I feel it is a wonderful grace to be of this minute-shakti in service to beautiful Goloka. Indeed Sarva the alarm bell has chimed....its time to wake up.

 

*it is not like we are seperate from Goloka. Goloka is made of pure consciousness. We are also that pure consciousness once we do not identify with matter. We need deep realization of what the Supreme Person actually is. Our limited conditioned ideas that Krsna loka is some where out there....is from lack of realization. In the big picture time and space do not exist....

 

I am unable to explain more on this subject, as words can never explain fully that truth.

 

The only evolution is the growth of love...which unfolds eternally. Actually love is what is - Person (Sri Krsna).

 

Impersonalism is only a mind-state of negation...which eventually loses flavor once it is realized that there is no flow or possibility for rasa...thus the temporary nature of such a station. The brahmayoti is actually the glowing beautiful effulgence of a Divine Personality - how can that be impersonal, it is the shine of Personality? We can penetrate that glow to meet the inner aspect of sweetness. Divine relationship.

 

If we seek deeply love...the answer as to what Krsna is will unfold. It boggles my mind when I look out at this world, and realize the essence of all things is Love. That we are actually progressing like an organism (if I dare use that metaphor) in unfoldment of Love.That is a mystery of joy - amazing! For me this is a hint of what Pure Personalism is!

 

Even, in this conditioned state most of us thought love was gross initially, then as we matured more subtle aspects of love unfolded...then by good fortune we heard of devotional service - where pure love is explained. Initially our love was perverted, lust, shadow...see how we are developing - by grace? (ofcourse I am speaking from a conditioned perspective here - not yet realized in what is)

[Sarva gattah]

 

Love is dynamic and grows eternally. I do not hold to the theory that we were impersonal, at any stage. As you say we have an eternally liberated body, we just need to realize it. .

Yes, just like dust covers a mirror and blocks us seeing who we really are. Clear away the dust ,then we can see who we realy are. Our full identity is always there , but presently is covered

 

Srila Prabhupada: "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

[Beggar]

 

Srila Prabhupada: "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered.Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Remember, both sides accept the above quote. But if you look at Jaiva Dharma, you'll see that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur has his character first describe "the fall" as being from the tatastha position and then tells that this is just how it is viewed from the aspect of time and that from the viewpoint of eternity, things are seen differently. The above quote by Srila Prabhupada is from the view of eternity. If you want to elaborate on Srila Prabhupada don't create your own commentary in an immature stage of realization but rather approach in a humble such acaryas as Thakur Bhaktivinoda.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur

Jaiva Dharma

Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.

...Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarsana in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of sesi-rupa Narayana. Maha-Visnu, who is an avatara of Sankarsana, situates Himself in the jiva-sakti, and in His Paramatma svarupa, He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains. The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by maya are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jivaand spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

All Vaisnavas say that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna, that his eternal nature is to serve Krsna, and that he is now bound by maya, because he has forgotten that eternal nature. However, everyone knows that the jiva is an eternal entity, of which there are two types: nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramada (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samadhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mayika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters.

I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas willbegin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor.

[Sarva gattah]

When Prabhupada CLEARLY says 'you are already there in the spiritual sky, he clarifies that by saying relationships with Krsna’, meaning our svarupa body is eternally there, but our memory of who we are is covered.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada: "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

 

 

PURPORT BASED ON PRABHUPADA'S TEACHINGS

 

 

 

This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are.

 

We do not grow consciously out of a plainsheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or reestablishing who we are originally.

 

Srila Prabhupada does not mean we spring to consciousness from a so-called dormant state as Narayana Maharaj teaches.

 

Frankly, I am not interested in his translation of Jaiva Dharma, Simply because of his view that we do not ORIGINALLY come down from the pastimes in KRSNALOKA.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

 

We do not grow consciously out of a plainsheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or reestablishing who we are originally.

 

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

 

Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

 

When Srila Sridhar Maharaj gave this description, no one thought about it logically and they didn't have the intelligence or courage to ask the question that Vrajanatha (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur himself) did in Jaiva Dharma. So here is the "proper adjustment", rather than being so impertinent to think that an exalted superior is wrong.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur

Jaiva Dharma

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jivaand spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

[Sarva gattah]

 

rather than being so impertinent to think that an exalted superior is wrong.

 

The post before this I was immature, now impertinent. The fact is yes, I am very fallen, but it does not stop me from speaking out when I see and hear something that does not seem quite right.

 

Others may be naïve and believe Sridar and Narayana Maharaj’s teachings on the origin of the jiva, but I certainly do not accept their ideas and NEVER will

I have meet Sridar Maharaj and been to his Temple, the same with Narayana Maharaj. Both are dedicated devotees of Lord Krishna. Prabhupada said that Sridar Maharaj was the most dedicated and sincere out of all his Godbrothers, but also said to be careful associating with them.

 

In fact, he warned us to keep away from them. Now if you do not like that comment, then what can I do? Prabhupada said it, not me.

It is very clear with both Sridar and Narayana Maharaj's, they claim some living entities have never seen Krsna and have never been in Krsna’s pastimes.

If they understood what the 'eternal present' REALLY means, they would say we ALL have come down from Krsnaloka as Prabhupada says, but they do not say that because they do not believe that.

In fact in 1982 Sridar Maharaj tried to convince us that we have NEVER been to Krsnaloka because we originated from his ‘plain sheet of consciousness’ theory.

So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine, think, or dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY THAT NEVER LEAVES GOLOKA.

 

Most living entities therefore never enter the world of imagination (the mahat-tattva) and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore it is only due to the cloud covering (the baddha-jiva dreaming sub-conscious state of the living entity) we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

[Beggar]

 

 

 

Sarva gattah, how would you explain this:

 

Loving Search For The Lost Servant

Srila Sridhar Maharaja

Excerpt

 

 

Although He is full in all respects, still the Lord feels pangs of separation for every one of us, and He appears again and again to reclaim us -- to take us back home, back to Godhead. As we are engaged in the Search for Sri Krishna, He is also engaged in an urgent campaign: a Loving Search for His Lost Servants. Reprinted on this page is the Introduction to The Loving Search For The Lost Servant, the follow-up to His Divine Grace Srila Sridhar Maharaj's first book, The Search For Sri Krishna - Reality The Beautiful.

Introduction

Great intensity is expressed here in a simple way. It is a mad search -- an urgent campaign. With great earnestness Krishna comes to deliver His lost servants; Krishna comes to take us home. In Brhad Bhagavatamrta, it is written that once, as Krishna and the cows were returning from the Vrindavan forest at the end of the day, a boy had just attained spiritual emancipation and entered Vrindavan as a cowherd boy [sakhya rasa]. Seeing His long lost servant, Krishna embraced him and both of them fainted in ecstasy. All of Krishna's other cowherd friends were astounded, thinking, "What is this? Krishna has lost His senses by embracing this newcomer! How is it possible?" Then, as all of the cowherd boys looked on astonished, Balaram came to Krishna's relief and somehow managed to rouse Him.

Then Krishna addressed His friend with great affection: "Why did you stay away? Why have you been living away from home for so long? How was it possible for you? How could you bear My separation? You left Me, and you have been passing lives after lives without Me? Still, I know what trouble you took to return to Me. You searched for Me everywhere, and went to beg from house to house, and you were chastised by many, ridiculed by many, and you shed tears for Me. I know all these things. I was with you. And now, after great trouble, you have again come back to Me." Krishna addressed His long lost servant and welcomed him thus. And when Krishna returned home, He took the newcomer by His side to take Prasadam. In this way, a new recruit is earnestly welcomed by Krishna Himself.

 

 

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

Reading that brought tears to my sinful eyes. So then tell me this, why does his present day followers preach the dry, impersonal 'we have never seen Krsna' nonsense?

 

Why do they keep insisting 'no one falls from Krsnaloka, not even consciously?? (Although that concept is the explanation given long ago by Prabhupada that many devotees, including many disciple sannyasis and Guru's of Sridar Maharaj, have over looked)

[bija]

 

The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramada (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samadhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mayika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters.

I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas willbegin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor. posted by beggar

Beggar thank you for posting Jaiva Dharma. The only way to realize the subject matters is through trance. Deep contemplation on a subject. The subject is love. If we are fortunate at some point we will experience the beginning of bhava, by the process of constant chanting. As we come in contact with that realm we come in contact with personailty (svarupa shakti). Until that time we can have glimpses by the grace of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in the above book. Srila BV Narayana Maharaja's translation is exceptional by the way.

 

Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

We do not grow consciously out of a plainsheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or reestablishing who we are originally. posted by sarva

This is the misunderstanding by saying we do not grow! The plain sheet of consciousness is simply this - like a babies senses which are all mixed into one - eventually the 'form' matures. The form was always there - jiva has always been. But at some point rasa matures - at that point the mixed spiritual senses become distinguished - flavors, moods, feelings etc. That is the growth of consciousness.

 

Not the idea of time and space, and going to Krsna loka. That is material vision. Krsna loka or Vraj is actually situated in pure consciousness - fully developed plane of sweetest rasa.

 

Sarva in my posts about synesthesia there is an interesting analogy that may help. At some point in this material plane the baby has a primordial soup of senses. The baby does not see like us - it hears colors - feels sounds. Almost like a mixed oneness. Almost like it is tapping into a pre-conscious awareness. As it grows the senses seperate and it begins to distinguish and feel. This is poor example but it is a shadow of soul growth.

 

And what is that growth. Not a growth of form spiritually from impersonal to form. But simply this - growth of love - growth of rasa!!

 

In synesthesia it is interesting to note that the mature adult can still tap into this preconscious realm. Of unity of the senses - a kind of hidden sense - deep sensitivities. For me this is deeply spiritual - unity and diversity co-existing.

 

I hope these mundane examples, which are shadow in time and space, can shed some light as to why this growth theory and argument is fundamentally incorrect.

 

Beggars previous post of Jaiva Dharma contains many points - words will fall short and never explain. We must realize through svarupa-shakti - which contains eternity, knowledge and bliss. And is saturated in RASA - being a person.

 

We never left. We have always been jiva - constitutionally servants of Nitya-siddhas. When we realize we are tatashta and accept that, we become full of eternity, knowledge - and bliss. We connect to the power source - and our smallness becomes irrelevant.

 

I cannot back it with scripture, but only from personal realization, 'I felt inadequate as jiva at some point'. Despondent at some point. Why small I asked? Envy had took seed in my heart.

 

By grace and devotional service that inadequacy began to leave at some point - I matured eventually.

 

Now I feel over joyed to be jiva shakti. To realize the diversity of God. To realize that jiva shakti is an integral part of His Personality Form. We are a part of that Reality the Beautiful. Grasp that - jiva is a particle of Beauty. That his jiva shakti is not inferior but wonderful - because it can become saturated in rasa - through service. That we experienced this material world - and grew in conscious love. This makes me fall in love with the Supreme Person because he is all these things!

 

Last year a small voice spoke to me. It was gentle and human like. It said 'if I was all these things...would you still love me?'

 

At that moment I saw myself as jiva (on the journey I have experienced much pain - the search for Sri Krsna wiped out all naievity) then the Supreme coming in such sensitivity - would you still love me if I was all this.

 

We are one and different. I am jiva - God is shaktiman. We are one. How could I not say 'yes, I love you.'

 

Sin does not exist for me anymore ( in basic moralistic terms) - nor does fall (as in primitive myth) - suffering has been explained. 'yes I love you' We worship the most advanced Person - wow! A Perfect Person - much different than what the moralist and other worldy thinkers conceive of as perfection.

 

This is growth. Conscious spiritual love. This is rasa.

 

y.s Nava (ever-new).

 

 

 

[Beggar]

 

Reading that brought tears to my sinful eyes. So then tell me this, why does his present day followers preach the dry, impersonal 'we have never seen Krsna' nonsense?

 

Why do they keep insisting 'no one falls from Krsnaloka, not even consciously?? (Although that concept is the explanation given long ago by Prabhupada that many devotees, including many disciple sannyasis and Guru's of Sridar Maharaj, have over looked)

 

Beacause:

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur

Jaiva Dharma

 

Babaji: ...Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another.

[Sarva gattah]

 

This is the misunderstanding by saying we do not grow! The plain sheet of consciousness is simply this - like a babies senses which are all mixed into one - eventually the 'form' matures. The form was always there - jiva has always been. But at some point rasa matures - at that point the mixed spiritual senses become distinguished - flavors, moods, feelings etc. That is the growth of consciousness.

 

Not the idea of time and space, and going to Krsna loka. That is material vision. Krsna loka or Vraj is actually situated in pure consciousness - fully developed plane of sweetest rasa.

 

No, what I was attempting to communicate is that actually there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity and position because that body already eternally exists ETERNALLY, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain, recover and reestablish the 'awareness 'of who we really are, that has always been there in Krsnaloka.

[bija]

Yes I know what you are trying to explain. And I agree.

 

I have not studied the Iskcon/Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja issue at all. I dont have time.

 

What I am saying is maybe some dont understand what Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja is saying. Mis-representation by some (maybe on both sides).

 

Ofcourse you and beggar will know more on this subject, as I have not delved into it.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Beacause:

 

No I do not agree, Prabhupada explained the original nature and position of the jiva soul that is understood by many devotees

 

Srila Prabhupada explains it very well for those who scrutinisingly study his teachings. He explains it very simply and compares our fallen state to our ‘dream’ consciousnesses while asleep in our material present body.

For those who delve deeply into the ‘origin of the jiva soul, Prabhupada has always given the clearest understanding.

Prabhupada’s understanding is clearer explained, far better than what you read in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s Jaiva Dharma, in its present translations from Narayana Maharaj and another Gaudiya matha version.

Although later this years there will be a translation with purports that weaves in Srila Prabhupada’s teachings that we are ALL originally from Krsnaloka