Fall Theory=Mayavada?

[bija]

Thx for the chat Sarva, its always a pleasure talking with you (association is nice).

 

The day is getting away and a jaap walk is calling. The way my devotional service has been lately (minimal)...if I dont do some jaap I will feel like...( )

 

 

 

 

Love! Hari Hari!

[Beggar]

 

No, what I was attempting to communicate is that actually there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity and position because that body already eternally exists ETERNALLY, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain, recover and reestablish the 'awareness 'of who we really are, that has always been there in Krsnaloka.

There is evolution of consciousness from the viewpoint of material time.

From the viewpoint of eternity there is no evolution of consciousness- "we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are."

 

 

This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world.

[Sarva gattah]

Devotee -"Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul?”

Prabhupada –“We are eternally conditioned (nitya baddha), but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (nitya-siddha)? You are not eternally conditioned (nitya baddha). You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha), but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it only APPEARS that we are eternally conditioned (nitya baddha).

Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise, the living entity is NOT actually conditioned (nitya-baddha).

 

A living entity is always pure (nitya-siddha). But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned (nitya-baddha), but that is not permanent.

Therefore, a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side.These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

Note -Prabhupada says here to try and understand, where as in another letter to us Australian devotee on another occasion he said “Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic” I have always prefered the 'try to understand' instructions from Prabhupada.

[krsna]

 

Devotee -"Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul?”

 

 

 

 

 

Prabhupada –“We are eternally conditioned (nitya baddha), but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (nitya-siddha)? You are not eternally conditioned (nitya baddha). You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha), but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it only APPEARS that we are eternally conditioned (nitya baddha).

 

Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise, the living entity is NOT actually conditioned (nitya-baddha).

 

 

 

 

A living entity is always pure (nitya-siddha). But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned (nitya-baddha), but that is not permanent.

Therefore, a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side.These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

Note -Prabhupada says here to try and understand, where as in another letter to us Australian devotee on another occasion he said “Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic” I have always prefered the 'try to understand' instructions from Prabhupada.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

siddhantabaliya

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

cite na kara alasa

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

iha ha-ite krsne lage sudrdha manasa

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such (scriptural) conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one’s mind becomes attached to Sri Krishna.”<O:P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Chaitanya Charitamrita Adi, 2.117)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm tring to understand, but with my teeny material intelligence, and this is not at all adviseable by the great spiritual and scrpitural authorities in our Vaisnava line.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To whom do we turn for shelter in order to get a clear, clean and crisp answer about our original descent into this material world?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can something so axiomatic, primordial and quitessential about the nature of our existence (How the hell did we get here in the first place, bro?)

(1+1=3?) be left to mere conjecture, speculation and surmise?

 

There's gotta be a better way!

 

How about approaching someone who actually knows the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

I'm tring to understand, but with my teeny material intelligence, and this is not at all adviseable by the great spiritual and scrpitural authorities in our Vaisnava line.

 

 

 

To whom do we turn for shelter in order to get a clear, clean and crisp answer about our original descent into this material world?

 

 

 

 

Can something so axiomatic, primordial and quitessential about the nature of our existence (How the hell did we get here in the first place, bro?)

(1+1=3?) be left to mere conjecture, speculation and surmise?

 

 

 

 

There's gotta be a better way!

 

 

 

 

How about approaching someone who actually knows the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

 

 

 

For most devotee's in ISKCON, the crow-and-tal-fruit logic letter (don't bash your head up against the wall by trying to figure out how we got here, just chant and serve and in time all will be revealed) from Prabhupada applies as explained very nicely HERE

 

 

http://www.jswami.info/jiva

 

[cbrahma]

this is a political rather than philosophical debate - the battle lines are drawn between ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math (what's left of it).

In reality it is Prabhupada vs the GM disciples and gurus on a topic which has very little practical consequence to anybody's spiritual life.

[Kulapavana]

 

this is a political rather than philosophical debate - the battle lines are drawn between ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math (what's left of it).

In reality it is Prabhupada vs the GM disciples and gurus on a topic which has very little practical consequence to anybody's spiritual life.

 

it has been made into a political subject by disciples of Prabhupada.

 

and I disagree that it is am irrelevant issue. as in: are you promoting apa-siddhanta?

[Sarva gattah]

 

this is a political rather than philosophical debate.

 

For some maybe, but not me, Some of us are genuin in our attempts to study all of Prabhupada's teachings and understand the truth on this subject matter, that he did reveal for those who want to know.

 

There is absolutely nothing 'political ' for me to gain, I am simply repeating what Prabhupada taught me a long time ago.

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by cbrahma

 

In reality it is a topic which has very little practical consequence to anybody's spiritual life.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Yes, that is a very good point however, it's also an inherent nature of our existence to inquire about where we came from, where are we going, and why are we hear. Even on the Dandavats Website, the second most poular topic is the origin of the jiva-soul .Our constitutional body is eternal,

 

You are right on this point cbrahma, the only activity needed is hearing, chanting and serving the selfless, humble caring servants of Krsna, who are genuinly and honestly trying to spread Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON preaching mission

[cbrahma]

 

it has been made into a political subject by disciples of Prabhupada.

 

and I disagree that it is am irrelevant issue. as in: are you promoting apa-siddhanta?

That is a political statement because of its categorical stance against Prabhupada's disciples as a whole. The same could be said of the GM disciples.

 

The conclusion of the Vedas, of the Bhagavad Gita is not contingent on the precise theology of our origin other than being a part and parcel of the Godhead, sat-cit-ananda.

[Beggar]

 

Although later this years there will be a translation with purports that weaves in Srila Prabhupada’s teachings that we are ALL originally from Krsnaloka

 

Here we go again. How can a being that is eternal with no beginning or end have an "origin" which means a beginning? To originate from God means to be created by God in no uncertain terms. If the jiva's are eternal then how could they be created or have an origin? This is not a contest; it doesn't matter if Srila Prabhupada's explanation is better or not than Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur's. It just means that there is something to learn by reading Jaiva Dharma. One thing to be learned is that there is a problem when there is any explanation of the origin of the soul. After reading Jaiva Dharma I am now convinced that this what Srila Prabhupada was trying to show by giving the crow and tal fruit analogy. The tatastha origin paradigm is open to defeat by logic as is the Vaikuntha origin paradigm. Because you are still harboring predjudces, Sarva, what you fail to see is that the tatastha origin paradigm is used by the acaryas because it by it's nature, stresses the exalted infallible position of Krsna's eternal associates, i.e. they never fall down. IOW, we must see that Srila Prabhupada can never fall down. At some point our acaryas must have concluded that when discussing the origin paradigm the tatastha concept should be applied because it solves this problem; otherwise we are left with an understanding that our guru varga is made up of fallible persons. Yet still the only full understanding is given from the eternal viewpoint where the soul has no origin and we have merely forgotten our relationship with Krsna.

Also I think that maybe you are correct about many of the so-called followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaj and others who are now stressing the tatastha origin explanation. This is due to rampant neophytism, duality, hostility and obviously politics. Your side is reacting to them, their side is reacting to your side and on and on; which actually has nothing to do with spiritual reality. It's just an example of how material politics can seep into our lives. I feel that by the grace of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur has opened my eyes to this reality.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Here we go again. How can a being that is eternal with no beginning or end have an "origin" which means a beginning? .

No that is not right, our original position is eternal, we are all eternally nitya-siddha which IS our original and eternal position, presently covered while we dream away in the material creation.

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti

 

 

 

These different aspects of the Brahmajyoti can be achieved or experienced by free will and choice however, ONLY Krsna's abode and the Vaikunthas, that make up 75% of the Brahmajyoti, Spiritual Sky or creation, are without end and situated in the personal active 'eternal present' of Krsna's perpetual pastimes.

The other 25% of the Brahmajyoti is made up of those who have chosen to forgotten their nitya -siddha body in the 'eternal present' and have entered that part of creation known as the perishable mahat-tattva and later on may enter the temporary impersonal Brahman, both in a 'dream consciousness' known as the baddha-jiva.

This devotionl active Brahmajyoti is very personal and is made up of ALL living entities that are perpetually i their nitya-siddha body

 

For a living entity, who has transmigrated through the lower species to the human biological body, simply means that the living entity had FIRST chosen to ‘consciously (like in a dream) fallen down long, long, long ago, from Vaikuntha and the eternal body that is their real perpetual ‘self’ (nitya-siddha) whose only activity there is serving Krsna or God

This was achieved by free will and choice; the marginal living entity therefore is able to leave Goloka ‘consciously’ as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness and travel to the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

The baddha-jiva may then travel further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets, and the then to lower species of biological life.

Some baddha-jivas may also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that is collectively, along with other baddha-jivas who have also chosen the dreamless dream state, known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahman effulgence

The impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti or Brahman, IS the nitya-baddha souls in a collective of souls, that IS the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

The brahmajyoti is full of jiva-souls, the word sarva-gatah means life IS the Brahmajyoti and is everywhere. So what is the Brahmajyoti?

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti

1.The Vaikunthas and Krsnaloka those are always active in service to Krsna or Vishnu

2. The mahat-tattva or material creation of Maha-Vishnu that is where the marginal living entity can CHOOSE to go to lead their own way of life without Krsna

3. When those who have entered the mahat-tattva become fed up with the temporary frustrating nature of the material world and the vessels or bodies they move around in, they often seek an inactive dormant state of consciousness.

They only seek out such an end to their existence because they still have no memory or recollection of their eternal body in Krsnaloka.

Therefore, due to this ignorant state the baddha-jiva is in, they choose to learn through the yogic process, to ‘close their consciousness down’ and stop the generation of thought. (which can be achieved, but is also a temporary dormant 'state of the baddha-jiva's consciousness".

This dormant conscious state of the baddha-jiva is known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti, which means it is the ‘inactive ‘state of consciousness of the souls that make up and IS the Personal Brahmajyoti – hence its reflection is the impersonal aspect of that same Brahmajyoti

[Beggar]

 

No that is not right, our original position is eternal,

Thats like saying, "our beginning is without beginning!" We all

accept the eternality of the soul. That point is not at issue.

 

original:

 

<cite>Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)</cite> - Cite This Source - <cite>Share This</cite> <!-- google_ad_section_start(name=def) --> o·rig·i·nal ........ type="text/javascript"> // <!--[CDATA[ var interfaceflash = new LEXICOFlashObject ( "http://cache.lexico.com/d/g/speaker.swf", "speaker", "17", "18", "", "6"); interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high"); interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t"); interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FO01%2FO0158800.mp3"); interfaceflash.write(); // ]]--> .........><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://cache.lexico.com/d/g/speaker.swf" id="speaker" quality="high" loop="false" menu="false" salign="t" flashvars="soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FO01%2FO0158800.mp3" align="top" height="18" width="17">..........> Audio Help /əˈrɪdʒənl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-rij-uh-nl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">1.</td><td valign="top">belonging or pertaining to the origin or beginning of something, or to a thing at its beginning.

eternal:

 

 

<cite>Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)</cite> - Cite This Source - <cite>Share This</cite> <!-- google_ad_section_start(name=def) --> e·ter·nal ........ type="text/javascript"> // <!--[CDATA[ var interfaceflash = new LEXICOFlashObject ( "http://cache.lexico.com/d/g/speaker.swf", "speaker", "17", "18", "", "6"); interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high"); interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t"); interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FE03%2FE0319300.mp3"); interfaceflash.write(); // ]]--> .........><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://cache.lexico.com/d/g/speaker.swf" id="speaker" quality="high" loop="false" menu="false" salign="t" flashvars="soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FE03%2FE0319300.mp3" align="top" height="18" width="17">..........> Audio Help /ɪˈtɜrnl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-tur-nl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">1.</td><td valign="top">without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing (opposed to temporal): eternal life.

Beacause:

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur

Jaiva Dharma

Babaji: ...Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another.

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Therefore the "origin of the jiva" controversy does not even exist and it never did, it's all in our heads. The blame for the darkness is the light, for the darkness is merely the shadow of the light. "Godhead is light. Nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience."

 

<table><tbody><tr><td>

</td><td class="m">Chapter 22: The Process of Devotional Service

 

</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.31

 

kṛṣṇa — sūrya-sama; māyā haya andhakāra

yāhāń kṛṣṇa, tāhāń nāhi māyāra adhikāra

 

SYNONYMS

kṛṣṇa — Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; sūrya-sama — like the sun planet; māyā — the illusory energy; haya — is; andhakāra — darkness; yāhāń kṛṣṇa — wherever there is Kṛṣṇa; tāhāń — there; nāhi — not; māyāra — of māyā, or the darkness of illusion; adhikāra — the jurisdiction.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"Kṛṣṇa is compared to sunshine, and māyā is compared to darkness. Wherever there is sunshine, there cannot be darkness. As soon as one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the darkness of illusion (the influence of the external energy) will immediately vanish.

 

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[Sarva gattah]

 

Thats like saying, "our beginning is without beginning!"

 

Thats right, our origin is without an origin

 

And that is our original position

 

The 'eternal present' is forever however from the mahat-tattva, our original position is in that 'eternal present' lovingly serving Krsna endlessly

 

 

Try and understand that the 'eternal present' is our original position, and that 'original position is eternal. It gives a whole new meaning to the word 'original' doesn't it.

[Beggar]

Mumbo, The Wild Man from Borneo,

upon hearing Sarva gattah's new

meaning for the word original!

[cbrahma]

 

 

Bhagavad Gita 10.3

 

 

 

 

 

 

yo mam ajam anadim ca

vetti loka-maheshvaram

asammudhah sa martyesu

sarva-papaih pramucyate

 

"He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginningless, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds—he only, undeluded among men, is freed from all sins."

 

 

 

Since we share in the Divine Nature, we too, as jiva-tattva, are 'ajam' - unborn.

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

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quote=Beggar- upon hearing Sarva gattah's new

meaning for the word original!

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Well, it's just like the word NEW, everything is new in Krsnaloka, everything is forever new because of the'eternal present'

 

Try and understand that the 'eternal present' is our original position, and that 'original position is eternal

 

So, as far as being in the material world is concerned, our original position is Krsnaloka, try and understand babaji

[bija]

 

...what you fail to see is that the tatastha origin paradigm is used by the acaryas because it by it's nature, stresses the exalted infallible position of Krsna's eternal associates...posted by beggar

This is such an essential point to remember in our sadhana and bhajan as followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Infact this is an anga of bhakti - (dasya) in humility.

 

From Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu by Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakura.

 

64 angas of bhakti - anga 47 (dasya)

The pure constitutional position (suddha svarupa) of the jiva is to be a servant of Lord Krsna. Because the jivas vision is diverted from Sri Krsna, his pure constitutional nature becomes covered by maya. By virtue of some great fortune, the jiva may come to learn of his true identity by the association of saintly devotees. The sadhaka should then always think: 'I am a servant of Lord Krsna.' This attitude is called dasya. There are two kinds of dasya: 1/ in its beginning form, dasya means to offer all of one's activities to the Lord, and 2/ to render all kinds of services to the Lord with the feeling that 'I am a servant of Sri Krsna, and He is my master.' That attitude is called kainkarya. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said the following about the suddha svarupa of the jiva:

 

naham vipro na ca nara-patir vaisyo na sudro

naham varni na can grha-patir no vanastho yatir va

kintu prodyan nikhila-paramananda purnamrtaabdher

gopi-bartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah

 

I am not a brahmana, a ksatriya, a vaisya, or a sudra. Nor am I a brahmacari, a grhastha, a vanaprasthi, or a sannyasi. I am a servant of the servant of the servants of the lotus feet of Sri Krsna who is the prana-priyatma, the dearmost beloved of the gopis, and an ocean of nectar laden with undivided spiritual bliss (nikhila-paramananda).

 

Sadhakas should always maintain this conception. (end quote)

 

 

I feel that by the grace of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur has opened my eyes to this reality....posted by beggar

All glories to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. By whose purity two great lion teachers manifest Sri Caitanya's teachings to the wider world. IMHO any devotee who neglects to see Srila Thakura as he is (nitya-siddha manjari) is missing a great opportunity to serve (dasya) the nitya-siddhas, especially as jiva in our sadhana stage. This is the correct approach for the jiva I feel, aspiration to serve the ragatmika devotees (nitya-siddhas) in raganuga bhakti.

 

 

Thats right, our origin is without an origin

 

And that is our original position ...posted by sarva

For me this word 'original' has a lot of personal meaning. I had only read a few sentences from Srila Prabhupada's books years ago then a month later had a NDE. When I was filled with bliss upon asking who are you, the response was 'Original'. That word filled me with indescribable 'bliss'. I have firm faith in the complete potency of Srila Prabhupada's books!

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada -"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

Srila Prabhupada -"The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krsna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

Srila Prabhupada -"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

Urdhvaga das – “Our original relationship with Krishna is never lost, although temporarily forgotten. It was ripped away from us by the prakshepatmika-shakti of Maya, and we were then covered over by her avaranatmika-shakti of forgetfulness.

As such, our original relationship with the Lord is forgotten, and this has tragic consequences for the jiva. We futilely try to re-establish that personal relationship with material liaisons, and this is ultimately only productive of misery.

This tragedy is only very rarely transcended by artificially adopting mayavada and self-imposing the belief that we have never had any personal relationship with Krishna".

[shvu]

 

Srila Prabhupada -"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

[cbrahma]

 

[bija]

 

This tragedy is only very rarely transcended by artificially adopting mayavada and self-imposing the belief that we have never had any personal relationship with Krishna". posted by sarva

Exactly. Who says we never had any personal relationship. All of Sri Krsna's shakti's are glorious beyond description. The glory of his jiva shakti is that it takes shelter under the higher principle.

 

By direct self realization we can begin to gradually understand the glory of jiva shakti - its potentiality for profound love in service to the higher principle. Once we mature in understanding of our nature as servants of the servants of the servants of that higher principle...falldown will be very rare. By sadhana in humility this life we can prepare ourselves.

 

But if we try and imitate that higher principle fall down will happen. Because that imitation is not our intrinsic nature and constitution as jiva. Therefore Sri Caitanya shows us the way, as the perfect devotee, full of humility.

 

We will only know the glory and mystery of why Sri Krsna has a shakti called jiva, when we understand the nature of love, its depth, and its inconceivable nature (reciprocation) all within the Supreme Personality. Then we will no longer desire to hijack the higher principle for our own foolish purpose. We can only enter that higher principles domain, not by claim or right....but only by invitation. We can learn the correct approach by service to the vaisnavas, while in this realm we presently find ourselves (a perfect place for sadhana). As far as I understand that kind of service to the higher principle was taught by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada to his disciples.

 

The only thing that is not factual is the temporary nature of enjoyment without full shelter, the flickering nature of the illusory potency. But, because the maya shakti is from Sri Krsna's inconceivable shaktis it has the potency to bewilder.

[Beggar]

 

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada -"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

Quote=shvu And herein lies the problem. By the above logic, the same fall can repeat again. You take all this pain being a Hare Krishna to get to Krishna, but it is always possible that you can fall again as you apparently have the independence to make that choice.

Yes that is right.but can be easily understood

 

Here is a very, very crude example of free will and choice that all marginal living entities (jiva-tattva) have.

Lets say that you are walking down the street and come across a hot dump of dog stool with worms crawling around in it, now on seeing the hot stool, you have a choice, due to free will, to eat it, or ignore it.

Now we know (lets hope so) that you will ignore it, it would not even enter your mind to eat it.

This is also the same for the living entity in Krsnaloka, the majority of living entities as there nitya siddha body, see the material world or mahat-tattva as a stool house.

Therefore just as you in your present body see that 'worm filled hot stool', and ‘choose’ to ignore it, the living entities in Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka also choose to use their free will to ignore the material world.

That ability to choose is the eternal nature of the marginal living entities or jiva-tattva’s and this is WHY we are all ‘marginal living beings’ - we are indepenant thinking individuals who can carve out our own existence or 'choose' to always serve Krsna.

We ALWAYS have the choice to eat Krsna prasadam (stay in Krsnaloka) or dog stool (go to the material world)

However, just like there are a very small minority of humans who see the hot stool as scrumptious and eat it, worms and all, there are also a small minority of living entities who choose to ignore Krsna and their 'svarupa' body they serve Krsna as, and come to the material world as their false ego (baddha-jiva).

The majority however, NEVER leave Krsnaloka unless it is to engage in Krsna’s sporting pastimes.

Actually if one understands this crude analogy, then we can understand how even those who have become purified and are now great devotee, NOW always see themselves as the most fallen because they have realized the way they had chose to leave Krsnaloka in the first place long, long, long ago.

 

Such great devotee, like many today who were previously from meat eating families, have now understood, by the dent of their Krsna Consciousness, how they had foolishly chosen to ignore Krsna and come down to the stool house of the material world.

 

The question remains, if you see hot wormy dog stool in your present body, would you eat it?

 

The free will to choose is always there in Krsnaloka.

All glorious to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu

[bhaktajan]

Sri Isopanisad 13 Purport:

. . . The human form of life offers one a chance to get out of this entanglement simply by reestablishing the lost relationship between the living entity and the Supreme Lord.

The Lord comes personally to teach this philosophy of surrender unto the Supreme, the sambhuta.

Real service to humanity is rendered when one teaches surrender to and worship of the Supreme Lord with full love and energy. . . .

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Returning Back Home, Back to Godhead. And how can we understand free will?

 

 

In Brhad Bhagavatamrta by Sanatana Gosvami, it is written that once, as Krishna and the cows were returning from the Vrndavana forest at the end of the day, a boy had just attained spiritual liberation and entered Vrndavana as a cowherd boy [sakhya rasa]. Seeing His long lost servant, Krishna embraced him and both of them fainted in ecstasy.

All of Krishna's other cowherd friends were astounded, thinking,

"What is this? Krishna has lost His senses by embracing this newcomer! How is it possible?"

Then, as all of the cowherd boys looked on astonished, Balarama came to Krishna's relief and somehow managed to rouse Him.

Then Krishna addressed His friend with great affection:

"Why did you stay away?

Why have you been living away from home for so long?

How was it possible for you?

How could you bear My separation?

You left Me, and you have been passing lives after lives without Me? Still, I know what trouble you took to return to Me. You searched for Me everywhere, and went to beg from house to house, and you were chastised by many, ridiculed by many, and you shed tears for Me. I know all these things. I was with you. And now, after great trouble, you have again come back to Me."

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Actually there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity and position because that svarupa body already perpetually exists ETERNALLY; we simply have to regain or recover the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain, recover, and re-establish the 'awareness 'of who we really are, that has always been there in Krsnaloka.

Prabhupada explained the original nature and position of the jiva soul that is understood by many devotees

Srila Prabhupada explains it very well for those who scrutinisingly study his teachings. He explains it very simply and compares our fallen state to our ‘dream’ consciousnesses while asleep in our material present body.

For those who delve deeply into the ‘origin of the jiva soul, Prabhupada has always given the clearest understanding.

Srila Prabhupada -"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

Some get angry when they hear we ALWAYS have the free will to leave Krsnaloka and say –

“Herein lies the problem. By the above logic, the same fall can repeat again. You take all this pain being a Hare Krishna to get to Krishna, but per Prabhupada, it is always possible that you can fall again as you apparently have the independence to make that choice.

And people who have been quoting this "fall from Goloka" avoid the direct quote from Krishna about his "abode of no return".

Yes, that is right, but this can be easily understood

Here is a very, very crude example of free will and choice that all marginal living entities (jiva-tattva) have.

Lets say that you are walking down the street and come across a hot dump of dog stool with worms crawling around in it, now on seeing the hot stool, you have a choice, due to free will, to eat it, or ignore it.

Now we know (lets hope so) that you will ignore it, it would not even enter your mind to eat it.

This is also the same for the living entity in Krsnaloka, the majority of living entities as there nitya siddha body, see the material world or mahat-tattva as a stool house.

Therefore just as you in your present body see that 'worm filled hot stool', and ‘choose’ to ignore it, the living entities in Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka also choose to use their free will to ignore the material world.

That ability to choose is the eternal nature of the marginal living entities or jiva-tattva’s and this is WHY we are all ‘marginal living beings’. We are independent thinking individuals who can carve out our own existence, or 'choose' to always serve Krsna. This means we ALWAYS have the choice to eat Krsna prasadam and stay in Krsnaloka, or dog stool (go to the material world.

However, just like there are a very small minority of humans who see the hot stool as scrumptious and eat it, worms and all, there are also a small minority of living entities who choose to ignore Krsna and their 'svarupa' body they serve Krsna as, and come to the material world as their false ego (baddha-jiva).

The majority however, NEVER leave Krsnaloka unless it is to engage in Krsna’s sporting pastimes.

Actually if one understands this crude analogy, then we can understand how even those who have become purified and are now great devotee, NOW always see themselves as the most fallen because they have realized the way they had chose to leave Krsnaloka in the first place long, long, long ago.

Such great devotee, like many today who were previously from meat eating families, have now understood, by the dent of their Krsna Consciousness, how they had foolishly chosen to ignore Krsna and come down to the stool house of the material world.

The question remains, if you see hot wormy dog stool in your present body, would you eat it?

The free will to choose is always there in Krsnaloka.

All glorious to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Sri Isopanisad 13 Purport:

Srila Prabhupada – “The human form of life offers one a chance to get out of this entanglement simply by re-establishing the lost relationship between the living entity and the Supreme Lord”.