Fall Theory=Mayavada?

[krsna]

 

 

Returning Back Home, Back to Godhead. And how can we understand free will?

 

 

 

In Brhad Bhagavatamrta by Sanatana Gosvami, it is written that once, as Krishna and the cows were returning from the Vrndavana forest at the end of the day, a boy had just attained spiritual liberation and entered Vrndavana as a cowherd boy [sakhya rasa]. Seeing His long lost servant, Krishna embraced him and both of them fainted in ecstasy.

All of Krishna's other cowherd friends were astounded, thinking,

"What is this? Krishna has lost His senses by embracing this newcomer! How is it possible?"

Then, as all of the cowherd boys looked on astonished, Balarama came to Krishna's relief and somehow managed to rouse Him.

Then Krishna addressed His friend with great affection:

"Why did you stay away?

Why have you been living away from home for so long?

How was it possible for you?

How could you bear My separation?

You left Me, and you have been passing lives after lives without Me? Still, I know what trouble you took to return to Me. You searched for Me everywhere, and went to beg from house to house, and you were chastised by many, ridiculed by many, and you shed tears for Me. I know all these things. I was with you. And now, after great trouble, you have again come back to Me."

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Actually there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity and position because that svarupa body already perpetually exists ETERNALLY; we simply have to regain or recover the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain, recover, and re-establish the 'awareness 'of who we really are, that has always been there in Krsnaloka.

Prabhupada explained the original nature and position of the jiva soul that is understood by many devotees

Srila Prabhupada explains it very well for those who scrutinisingly study his teachings. He explains it very simply and compares our fallen state to our ‘dream’ consciousnesses while asleep in our material present body.

For those who delve deeply into the ‘origin of the jiva soul, Prabhupada has always given the clearest understanding.

Srila Prabhupada -"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

Some get angry when they hear we ALWAYS have the free will to leave Krsnaloka and say –

“Herein lies the problem. By the above logic, the same fall can repeat again. You take all this pain being a Hare Krishna to get to Krishna, but per Prabhupada, it is always possible that you can fall again as you apparently have the independence to make that choice.

And people who have been quoting this "fall from Goloka" avoid the direct quote from Krishna about his "abode of no return".

Yes, that is right, but this can be easily understood

Here is a very, very crude example of free will and choice that all marginal living entities (jiva-tattva) have.

Lets say that you are walking down the street and come across a hot dump of dog stool with worms crawling around in it, now on seeing the hot stool, you have a choice, due to free will, to eat it, or ignore it.

Now we know (lets hope so) that you will ignore it, it would not even enter your mind to eat it.

This is also the same for the living entity in Krsnaloka, the majority of living entities as there nitya siddha body, see the material world or mahat-tattva as a stool house.

Therefore just as you in your present body see that 'worm filled hot stool', and ‘choose’ to ignore it, the living entities in Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka also choose to use their free will to ignore the material world.

That ability to choose is the eternal nature of the marginal living entities or jiva-tattva’s and this is WHY we are all ‘marginal living beings’. We are independent thinking individuals who can carve out our own existence, or 'choose' to always serve Krsna. This means we ALWAYS have the choice to eat Krsna prasadam and stay in Krsnaloka, or dog stool (go to the material world.

However, just like there are a very small minority of humans who see the hot stool as scrumptious and eat it, worms and all, there are also a small minority of living entities who choose to ignore Krsna and their 'svarupa' body they serve Krsna as, and come to the material world as their false ego (baddha-jiva).

The majority however, NEVER leave Krsnaloka unless it is to engage in Krsna’s sporting pastimes.

Actually if one understands this crude analogy, then we can understand how even those who have become purified and are now great devotee, NOW always see themselves as the most fallen because they have realized the way they had chose to leave Krsnaloka in the first place long, long, long ago.

Such great devotee, like many today who were previously from meat eating families, have now understood, by the dent of their Krsna Consciousness, how they had foolishly chosen to ignore Krsna and come down to the stool house of the material world.

The question remains, if you see hot wormy dog stool in your present body, would you eat it?

The free will to choose is always there in Krsnaloka.

All glorious to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Sri Isopanisad 13 Purport:

Srila Prabhupada – “The human form of life offers one a chance to get out of this entanglement simply by re-establishing the lost relationship between the living entity and the Supreme Lord”.

 

Makes sense. A place of no return. Once inside no one leaves, or wants to leave for that matter. How could maya entice us there in Krsnaloka?

 

We made our 'bad' choice somewhere else, in the 'tatastha' region of the Lord, wherein we chose not to accept the 'free' entry into eternal submission in Krsnaloka, but rather we chose to enter in the material world instead.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Makes sense. A place of no return. Once inside no one leaves, or wants to leave for that matter. How could maya entice us there in Krsnaloka?

We made our 'bad' choice somewhere else, in the 'tatastha' region of the Lord, wherein we chose not to accept the 'free' entry into eternal submission in Krsnaloka, but rather we chose to enter in the material world instead.

Srila Prabhupada -"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70.

The fact is, our original relationship with Krishna is never lost, although temporarily forgotten due to free will and choice. It is not a question of Maya dragging us out of Krsnaloka, it does not work like that, it is simply the choice of the living entity to remain with Krsna or enter the stool house material world.

Maya does not exist in Krsnaloka but choice does, there is always free will and choice.

As soon as we first chose to leave Krishna and also forget the svarupa body we serve Krishna as, our memory of ‘our original position’ is taken from us by the prakshepatmika-s’akti of Maya Devi, the wife of Maha-Vishnu who creates and manages the mahat-tattva material creation. We are thus covered over by her avaranatmika-s’akti of forgetfulness (after that choice is made to leave Krsna's Lila's) and no longer recall that we are originally nitya-siddha.

As such, our original relationship with the Lord is forgotten simply based on choice rather than Maya’s influence. She’s s’akti comes AFTER we made the choice to leave Krsna’s pastimes.

[Beggar]

 

Srila Prabhupada -"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70.

The fact is, our original relationship with Krishna is never lost, although temporarily forgotten due to free will and choice. It is not a question of Maya dragging us out of Krsnaloka, it does not work like that, it is simply the choice of the living entity to remain with Krsna or enter the stool house material world.

Maya does not exist in Krsnaloka but choice does, there is always free will and choice.

As soon as we first chose to leave Krishna and also forget the svarupa body we serve Krishna as, our memory of ‘our original position’ is taken from us by the prakshepatmika-s’akti of Maya Devi, the wife of Maha-Vishnu who creates and manages the mahat-tattva material creation. We are thus covered over by her avaranatmika-s’akti of forgetfulness (after that choice is made to leave Krsna's Lila's) and no longer recall that we are originally nitya-siddha.

As such, our original relationship with the Lord is forgotten simply based on choice rather than Maya’s influence. She’s s’akti comes AFTER we made the choice to leave Krsna’s pastimes.

It is clear to me that you are actually mixing the fall from Goloka or Vaikuntha theory with the idea that we have actually forgotten Krsna. Also you are "mixing and matching" at your whim. Then you take Prabhupada's Bhagavatam statement that no one falls from Vaikuntha as meaning that we are all actually still there in our nitya swaupa but have forgotten. But I am not arguing that from the eternal viewpoint that we are separated from our eternal swarupa and concomitant service only by time. What I am saying is that you can't have it both ways. From the viewpoint of time the jivas fall from a position in between the material and spiritual worlds. So I've been trying to meet you at least half way and say, "why view the topic from the viewpoint of time anyway"?

Isn't it good enough for you that we just see that we are the eternal servants of Krsna and that we have an eternal relationship with Krsna? Bas - why is there a problem? The problem is really only plain old politics. If certain followers of Sridhar Maharaj want to over emphasize tatashta conception and forget that this material existence is a dream then that is their politics but it is not reality. So again in reality all the acaryas and their followers agree that, "we are the eternal servants of Krsna and that we have an eternal relationship with Krsna". And besides the disagreement arises when we try to over-analyze these concepts and we have also been warned by acaryas not to do so.

We will only realize the true nature of our origin and existence by the chanting of the pure name of Krsna or suddha nama. Until that day comes we can help the process on by telling everyone that they are the eternal servants of Krsna and that the only remedy is to chant His name and serve His pure devotees.

[Sarva gattah]

 

It is clear to me that you are actually mixing the fall from Goloka or Vaikuntha theory with the idea that we have actually forgotten Krsna.

 

From the very beginning of this discussion, nearly a year and a half ago, as well as in Vrndavana over ten years before that, I have clearly said that we have fallen from Krsnaloka due to the CHOICE to do our own thing, and simultaneously forget Krishna and our own 'svarupa' body in the process.

First, there is choice, then that choice puts us 'in' Maya and we completely forget who we really are (An eternal nitya-siddha devotee of Krsna).

There is no mixing of anything and never has been. It is straight forward understanding, we are all originally from Krsnaloka and came to the material world in our false ego mundane dream state (baddha-jiva) some millions of years ago.

[Beggar]

 

From the very beginning of this discussion, nearly a year and a half ago, as well as in Vrndavana over ten years before that, I have clearly said that we have fallen from Krsnaloka due to the CHOICE to do our own thing, and simultaneously forget Krishna and our own 'svarupa' body in the process.

First, there is choice, then that choice puts us 'in' Maya and we completely forget who we really are (An eternal nitya-siddha devotee of Krsna).

There is no mixing of anything and never has been. It is straight forward understanding, we are all originally from Krsnaloka and came to the material world in our false ego mundane dream state (baddha-jiva) some millions of years ago.

So what do the ideas expressed below mean to you?:

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur

Jaiva Dharma

 

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s book answers very nicely your comment -

 

“I know at present you will not be able to digest these subtleties so quickly. As the spiritual influence will increase in your heart, so the spiritual understanding will easily increase, distinguishing it from the material conception.

You body is inert and so are all the bodily activities, but you are not; you are an atomic conscious being.

The more you are able to understand yourself, the more you will experience yourself as superior to the material world.

Therefore, even if I explain it and you listen, you will not able to grasp it.

The more you awaken your spiritual consciousness by taking shelter of the holy name, the more you will experience the spiritual world.” (Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15.)

In the Caitanya-caritamrita (Adi.1.92): “The foremost process of cheating is to desire to achieve liberation by merging in the Supreme, for this causes the permanent disappearance of loving service to Krishna.”

Therefore, those who have reached mature spiritual realization look upon merging into the Brahman effulgence, or seeing it as the origin of our existence, as a great mistake.

From this verse it is clear that without going beyond the Brahman effulgence (Impersonal Brahmajyoti), one cannot see the real perpetual bodily form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or their own perpetual ‘svarupa’ active bodily identity.

If one chooses to reache the stage of realizing the Brahman devoid of Krsnaloka or the mahat-tattva (IMPERSONAL BRAHMAJYOTI) and becomes convinced that he has attained the ultimate, then he does not have complete understanding or full realization of his or hers full constitutional svarupa bodily origins, which is the full potential and ultimate expression of ALL marginal living entities.

Therefore the genuin seeker of truth, must go further until he has reached the bodily source of the Brahmajyoti, which, according to the Isa Upanishad, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, where all marginal living entities are eternal actively serving Krishna as their eternal bodily svarupa form.

Thus, the nitya-siddha bodily form ALL marginal living entities have, are without end or beginning (Within the real of the ‘eternal present’ where there is no concept of past or future).

This is the real position of all marginal living entities

[Beggar]

The acceptance of the tatastha origins conception from the viewpoint of material time in no way contracts the concept that all jivas are the eternal servants of Krsna and have forgoten their relationship with Him. The tatastha origins conception is there is Jaiva Dharma as well as Srila Prabhupada's books. The Crow and the Tal Tree (Fruit) metaphor is a two edge sword. It shows that any origin conception based from viewpoint of material time can be defeated by logic. But the reason the tatastha origin concept is given is that within that paradigm the Lords statement, Those who reach it [My Abode] never return to this material world." (Bg 15.6) can be harmonized. Also as I wrote before such a concept accentuates the idea that the Lord's eternal associates are infallible or don't fall down.

Now if a person has no experience of theologies that harmonize paradoxes they would see a large contradiction; the contradiction that how can we be eternal servants of Krsna and originate from a realm where no service is possible? But that apparent contradiction is certainly harmonized by Mahaprabhu's doctrine of acintya bheda [a]bheda tattva. Therefore the sastra never says that the jivas originate in Vaikuntha or Goloka. But in a way you are not completely wrong, Sarva for you would always rather see things from the eternal viewpoint. But your mistake is to assail the tatastha origin conception and see it as some sort of impersonalist plot which it certainly is not. One can understand that the tatastha origins conception is from the viewpoint of time and that the eternal servant of Krsna (and eternal relationship) is from the angle of eternity.

The biggest problem with a Goloka or Vaikuntha origin theory is that it fails to take into account, "Those who reach it [My Abode] never return to this material world." (Bg 15.6), therefore it is never accepted. The statement by Srila Prabhupada that "millions of years ago we came down from Vaikuntha", is itself from the viewpoint of time and therefore can also be subjected to Crow and Tal Fruit Logic. Here's how, the question could be asked, "what about before we came down from Vaikuntha some millions of year ago?" And don't say that Srila Prabhupada's words on this subject are not also subject to Crow and Tal Fruit Logic, because they are, according to his own statements. All statements from the viewpoint of time have their limitations, by definition,

Babaji: ...Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements.

[Sarva gattah]

 

When Prabhupada CLEARLY says 'you and me and EVERY other marginal living entity' are already there in the spiritual sky' date=' he clarifies that by saying 'relationships with Krsna’ in Krsbaloka, meaning our svarupa body is eternally there[b'], but our memory of who we are is presently covered by our own selfish plans and mistaken desires.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada: "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are.

 

We do not grow consciously out of a plainsheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining, recovering, restoring or re-establishing who we are originally.

 

Srila Prabhupada CLEARLY rejects the idea we spring to consciousness from a so-called dormant state inbetween the Krsnaloka and the mahat-tattva because originally, which means eternally in this context, "We are all originally Krsna Conscious devotionally active living entities in Radha and Krsna's perpetual pastimes in Krsnaloka".

 

Frankly, I am not interested in devotees who teach that nonsense, simply because of their impersonally tinged view that we do not ORIGINALLY come down from the pastimes of Radha and Krsna in KRSNALOKA.

 

Hare Krsna

[Sarva gattah]

 

Therefore the genuin seeker of truth' date=' must go further until he has reached the [b']bodily source of the Brahmajyoti, which, according to the Isa Upanishad, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, where all marginal living entities are eternal actively serving Krishna as their eternal bodily svarupa form.

Thus, the nitya-siddha bodily form ALL marginal living entities have, are without end or beginning (Within the real of the ‘eternal present’ where there is no concept of past or future).

This is the real position of all marginal living entities

Srila Prabhupada- "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies -

1. Internal, shown in blue

2. Marginal, shown in purple

3. External, shown in brown

 

1.By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

 

2.By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the freethinkingliving entities.

 

3.And by means of His Lifeless external energy, which includes all bodily costumes, He exhibits Himself as material energy. (Also known as the mahat-tattva)

 

Srila Prabhupada -"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. (Anology only) Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

 

It is important to understand how we all originally came down from Vaikunthaby clearly understanding the following -

 

The three energies of Lord Krishna are -

 

Superior -Krishna and His unlimited expansions. Within the immensity of Krishna’s perpetual abodes is also where the marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) in their perpetual svarupa form reside serving Krishna or a Vishnu expansion.

 

It is important to understand that even though they are associating with the superior energies of Krishna, they are never one with the Krishna's superior energy like all of the Vishnu-tattva expansions are.

 

The realm of the superior energy also incorporates the individual independently thinking jiva-tattva as well because they are of the nature of Superior energy in as much as they are also eternal living entities, however, they always remain independently marginal living entities or jiva tatastha.

The word tatastha IS the marginal living entity, WE are all tatastha-jiva, meaning every jiva–tattva (jiva-tatastha) can be on ‘this side’ (nitya-siddha) or ‘that side’ (nitya-baddha) due to free will and choice.

This means the choice ALWAYS exists to serve Krishna as OUR real perpetual bodily identity in Krsnaloka, or chase our mistaken desires of grandeur IN THE maha-tattva (material creation).

The concept and perception of tatastha therefore, is certainly NOT a place, region, zone, sector, expanse, but rather describes the jiva-tattva’s nature and ability to choose between two regions.

Tatastha-s’akti also means the constituency nature of all marginal living entities that are collectively are eternally able to choose their own existence.

This clearly means tatastha describes the living entities capability of being, either in the ‘eternal present’ of Krsnaloka,that is without the mundane time expanse of past or future. Or in the world of imagination within the past, present and future of mahat-tattva (MATERIAL WORLD)

Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatastha's (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independent and eternally have free will.

This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva. Having choice (jiva-tatastha) is what it really means to be in-between the Superior andinferior potencies of Lord Krsna. One chooses either Krishna's perpetual devotional creation OR

Maha-Vishnu's temporary DREAM creation.

Inferior- The mahat-tattva or lifeless material energies that include the ethereal and biological vessels or costume bodies the baddha-jiva wears.

 

The conclusion is nothing can be understood without the association of Krsna's wonderful devotee.

[Beggar]

The only real important thing about the concepts of the origin of the jiva souls is the siddhanta itself. As far as our origin is concerned, none of us will ever experience it [again] (a thought within time). When a jiva meets Krsna, face to face, is it important whether one believes that he/she never met Krsna before but it seems like, "I've know Him forever" or that individual believes that I was with Krsna before and now I'm meeting my old friend and "I've know Him forever"? The experience of meeting Krsna would be same either way. IOW there's the thoughts of the "philosohy" of Krsna Consciousness while we are still in the conditioned stage and there is actually meeting Krsna! Like Prabhupada said, how do we know that we were not with Krsna before we were in the brahmajyoti? This is the application of the Crow and Tal Fruit logic. But applying such logic, why can't you say, "how do you know that we were not in the brahmajyoti at the point of our origin?" Remember "point of origin" means previously whether you conceive it in the brahmajyoti or Vaikuntha. Previously means that we are now within material time. When we experience being with Krsna all that will fade away, like our memories of being in the material world. At that point beyond material time we will have always been with Krsna! From that viewpoint we will have always been in our nitya swarupa.

So the whole controversy is really over semantics and due to the limitations of our material language. The controversy itself is an illusion. Therefore it is not necessary to do things like translating a Jaiva Dharma with an, "your from Goloka", slant. No embellishments on Srila Prabhupada's books or the books of Thakur Bhaktivinoda are required unless they are the realizations of someone who is established ( or re-established) in their full relationship with Krsna. Remember you can lead all the aspiring devotee horses to water but you cannot make them drink. To try to make them drink is over-endeavor and an attempt to be the controller and that is completely contradictory to our goal.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The conclusion is nothing can be understood without the association of Krsna's wonderful devotee.

 

 

The word tatastha IS the marginal living entity, WE are all tatastha-jiva, meaning every jiva–tattva (jiva-tatastha) can be on ‘this side’ (nitya-siddha) or ‘that side’ (nitya-baddha) due to free will and choice.

This means the choice ALWAYS exists to serve Krishna as OUR real perpetual bodily identity in Krsnaloka, or chase our mistaken desires of grandeur IN THE maha-tattva (material creation).

The concept and perception of tatastha therefore, is certainly NOT a place, region, zone, sector, expanse, but rather describes the jiva-tattva’s nature and ability to choose between two regions.

Tatastha-s’akti also means the constituency nature of all marginal living entities that are collectively are eternally able to choose their own existence.

This clearly means tatastha describes the living entities capability of being, either in the ‘eternal present’ of Krsnaloka,that is without the mundane time expanse of past or future. Or in the world of imagination within the past, present and future of mahat-tattva (MATERIAL WORLD)

 

Always Chant Hare Krsna

 

[bhaktajan]

The prime points-of-logic as to why the jiva did not originate from the Brahmajyoti nor the from the any state of unconscious inactivity:

□ There are a fixed-Quantity of jivas in a Brahmanda.

□ Paramatma's origin/connection to jiva (ref: visnu-tattvas).

□ Jiva must 'act/desire'.

□ Krisna = root of Brahman-jyoti (ref: visnu-tattvas).

[The description and definition of "Brahmajyoti" never defines this effulgence as

the origin of jives—see: Sri Isopanisad #15P & 16P regarding Brahma-

Samhita & Mukunda Upanisads' descriptions of the "Brahmajyoti"].

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Always Chant Hare Krsna

 

And return back home, back to Krsnaloka

 

[Beggar]

I just heard a lecture where Srila Narayana Maharaja said that if you have a bona fide spiritual master and follow his instructions and surrender that one day you will find that you are not in the material world at all, you will find yourself in transcedental Vrndavana with Krsna and His associates.

[Svarupa]

 

 

Jiv jago, it time to go back home

 

 

[gauragopala dasa]

 

 

How did we come to the material world

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It is interesting to understand that when Jaya and Vijaya became demons for three births, they were still Jaya and Vijaya and remained there in Vaikuntha within the ‘eternal present’ while their secondary self-manifestation came here to the material world to act like demons.

This does not mean their fall was not a real experience because it was, they really believed they were demons but on return to Vaikuntha their departure was no more than a moment.

 

If one can understand the eternal presents of Vaikuntha and the divided time of past, present, and future in the material world, then one can understand, by dent of bhakti and the teaching of Srila Prabhupada, how this works

Jaya and Vijaya, as well as ever other jiva tattva in Goloka, can have numerous forms, just as Yasoda has limitless forms, and just as Krsna has so many forms in Vaikuntha, in Dvaraka, and here and there. There are lakhs of universes in the mahat-tattva also, in each cosmos, there is one Vrndavana, and Krsna is there in Vrndavana.

We cannot visualize this. An individual may be capable to calculate the stars in the sky or the sands on the earth, but he or she will not be able to praise the charming pastimes of Krsna.

It is a fact that the jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana in the same way as Jaya and Vijaya did, not as their eternal Svarupa body but as a secondary manifestation that ALL marginal living entities can activate if they choose to enter the material mahat-tattva.

Any liberated soul can also come with Krsna to assist in His pastimes, as Sridama and Subala do. Krsna sends them here only to help the rebellious baddha-jivas return back to their original position in Goloka and again re-establish and regain the memory of who they really are which is their eternal nitya-siddha body.

We are all everlastingly Krsna dasa, servants of Krsna, but now we have forgotten Krsna. The jiva can forget Krsna, so what does this actually mean?

It means that the jiva’s, now in the material world in their secondary manifestation, were once ‘aware’ they were serving Krsna. Actually, they still are, but have fallen out of sync with the ‘eternal present’ where their true eternal bodily form perpetually exists always engaged in Krsna's service, but now one has forgotten that service.

Some incorrectly say, due to them not understanding the concept of the ‘eternal present’, that, “Actually, this is not true, this is not how the jiva enters the material world, by coming down from Goloka as a secondary manifestation of their consciousness”. However, we now understand that this is exactly how the small minority of marginal living entities, enter the material world. Therefore their ideas and the proper understanding of tatastha-s'akti is not fully developed

Srila Prabhupada has told us that the vast majority of jiva-tattva’s never come to the material world in a secondary consciousness manifestation (baddha-jiva) to exploit the material energy.

The majority of marginal living entities always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always endeavour to please Bhagavan, and are always favourable to Him. By virtue of the divine sakti, they have the potency to stay permanently ‘aware, awake, alert’ of their eternal nitya-siddha bodily form and their loyalty and service to Krsna.

In fact, they have no connection with the material energy whatsoever, in effect, they are oblivious, due to their choice to always serve Krsna, that there is even a deluding influence called Maya, and thus most jivas NEVER come under Her enchantment because they are always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord.

So it is in this way they are eternally liberated (Always aware they are nitya-siddha) and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is Bhakti only, and they are not even cognizant to melancholy, death or fear."

Since ALL living reside in the spiritual world of eternal presents in their full devotional potential, devoid of any past or future, Maya stays far from them and does not affect them at all because she has no power in Vaikuntha or Goloka.

It is only when those minorities of jivas choose to forget Krishna and the svarupa nitya-siddha body they serve Krsna as, do they enter Maha-Vishnu’s temporary material world and come under the influence and temptations of His wife, Maya Devi.

[Svarupa]

 

Srila Prabhupada has told us that the vast majority of jiva-tattva’s never come to the material world in a secondary consciousness manifestation (baddha-jiva) to exploit the material energy.

The majority of marginal living entities always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always endeavour to please Bhagavan, and are always favourable to Him. By virtue of the divine sakti, they have the potency to stay permanently ‘aware, awake, alert’ of their eternal nitya-siddha bodily form and their loyalty and service to Krsna.

In fact, they have no connection with the material energy whatsoever, in effect, they are oblivious, due to their choice to always serve Krsna, that there is even a deluding influence called Maya, and thus most jivas NEVER come under Her enchantment because they are always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord.

 

This is a very intereseting point to comprehend

[Kulapavana]

Sleeper-vada:

I am nitya-siddha, you are nitya-siddha, we are all nitya-siddha. Why do I not feel like a nitya-siddha now? because you just don't know you are a nitya-siddha.

 

Maya-vada:

I am God, you are God, we are all God. Why do I not feel like God now? because you just don't know you are God.

[Svarupa]

 

Srila Prabhupada -"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

Srila Prabhupada -"The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krsna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

Srila Prabhupada -"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70.

 

Where Do the Fallen Souls Fall From?

 

 

• Philosophy and spirituality
  
• On learning that the material world is not our real home,
  we naturally wonder, “How did we get here?”

 

by Jayadvaita Swami

 

 

 

from Back to Godhead, May-June 1993

 

 

 

 

When we hear that we live in this material world because we are “fallen souls,” it’s natural for us to ask, “Where have we fallen from?”

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean?

 

Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it.

 

As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down.

That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected. “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, three generations before Srila Prabhupada in the line of spiritual teachers, put it this way: “Please avoid the misleading question ‘When were these jivas [living beings] created and enthralled?’

 

The Mayik time has no existence in spiritual history, because it has its commencement after the enthrallment of jivas, and you cannot, therefore, employ Mayik chronology in matters like these.”

 

 

 

 

“The Relationship is Eternal”

 

 

Here, then, is how Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall and leave it.

“Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.”

“Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.”

In another letter, Srila Prabhupada gave further insights. “We are always with Krishna. Where is Krishna not present?” But “when we forget this fact we are far, far away from Him.

 

In the Isopanisad it is clearly stated, tad dure tad v antike: ‘He is very far away, but He is very near as well.’ (Isopanisad, Mantra Five). So this forgetfulness is our falldown. It can take place at any moment, and we can counteract this forgetfulness immediately by rising to the platform of Krishna consciousness.”

Our relationship with Krishna is never lost, Srila Prabhupada said. “Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya. So it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of Krishna, and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position.

 

The relationship of the living entity with Krishna is eternal, as both Krishna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.”

In still another letter, Srila Prabhupada restated this in yet another way: “We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world, or maya.”

 

But when we chant the Hare Krishna mantra sincerely and without offense, our original Krishna consciousness is at once revived.

 

“So naturally everything about Krishna is originally known to us all, and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His holy name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krishna in different ways.”

Our separation from Krishna, Srila Prabhupada taught, is like a dream. We dream, “I am this body,” and we dream of happiness in material relationships.

 

This dreaming condition is our non-liberated state. But although this state of dreaming may seem to last for lifetimes, as soon as we become Krishna conscious we awaken, and the dream at once disappears.

 

“After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila [pastimes] of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, like dreaming.”

 

 

 

 

Don’t Figure It Out—Get Out

 

 

Ultimately, Srila Prabhupada would stress, puzzling over when we fell or where we fell from won’t solve our problem. “The conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krishna consciousness and immediately join Krishna.”

Again: “One should know he is in conditioned life and try to cure it… . Forgetfulness of Krishna is the disease, so let us keep ourselves always in Krishna consciousness and get out of the disease. That is healthy life.”

Still again:

 

“Rather than taking account of how things happened that [we] came here, our best occupation is to get out of the scene by constantly chanting Hare Krishna and being engaged in the transcendental service of Lord Krishna.”

The advice is clear enough. But still the intellect hangs on, trying to figure out what can’t be figured out. So we delve into books to find out what was taught by other great acaryas (spiritual teachers) of the past. And what do we find?

 

Different teachers—all Krishna conscious—seem to express different views. So then what? We take sides with one view or another, or simply become confused. Our mental circuits start to burn out.

Srila Prabhupada’s spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, therefore gave this advice. We should avoid, he said,

 

“vain empirical wranglings,” which he called “false and full of specious verbosity.”

 

He reminds us, “What the unalloyed devotee of the Supreme Lord says is all true and is independent of any consideration of unwholesome pros and cons.”

When such pure devotees disagree, he says, there is “the element of mystery in their verbal controversies.”

 

And “those whose judgment is made of mundane stuff” can’t “enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees.” Lacking pure devotion, such people “are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views.”

 

Therefore, he counsels, whenever such disputes arise about the pastimes of the Lord, we should remember what was taught by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His associates the Gosvamis, “that the Truth Absolute is ever characterized by spiritual variegatedness that transcends the variegatedness of mundane phenomena; but He is never featureless.”

 

 

 

 

Endless Arguments: Maya’s Trick

 

 

 

The Mahabharata tells us that we can’t know the truth simply by logic and arguments (tarko ‘pratistah). Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet: “There’s no use arguing over that which is inconceivable.” After all, it’s inconceivable.

Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, one of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers, respected for his deep philosophical realization, used to stress the same point, one of his followers told us.

 

Repeatedly asked about where the living beings fell from, Srila Sridhara Maharaja grew weary of the question. “Why do you always ask about the most difficult thing to understand?” he once responded. “Why not try to understand the most easy thing?” That is: how to become Krishna conscious and go back to Godhead.

Pure devotees of Krishna avoid endless arguments. Such devotees know that such arguments are merely another distraction offered by maya. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (6.4.31):

 

 

yac-chaktayo vadatam vadinam vai

vivada-samvada-bhuvo bhavanti

kurvanti caisam muhur atma-moham

tasmai namo ’nanta-gunaya bhumne

 

 

“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the all-pervading Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has unlimited transcendental qualities. Acting from within the cores of the hearts of all philosophers, who propagate various views, He makes them forget their own souls while sometimes agreeing and sometimes disagreeing among themselves.

 

Thus He creates within this material world a situation in which they are unable to come to a conclusion. I offer my obeisances unto Him.”

 

Therefore, the student in transcendental science is best advised to simply accept what has been accepted by his own bona fide Krishna conscious acarya, or spiritual master.

 

As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says, “It is a great offense to disrespect the acarya and to seek to establish a different doctrine in opposition to him.”

 

 

 

 

The Crow-and-Fruit Philosophy

 

 

To illustrate the uselessness of arguing about where the soul fell from, Srila Prabhupada once gave the example of the crow and the fruit of an Indian palm, the tal fruit. On the top of a tree was a nice tal fruit.

 

A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some learned scholars saw this and began discussing. The fruit fell because the crow shook the limb, one said. No, said another, as the crow was landing the fruit happened to fall. This frightened the crow, so the crow flew away. No, said a third, the fruit was ripe, and the weight of the crow’s landing broke the fruit from the branch… .

 

“What is the use of such discussion?” Srila Prabhupada said.

Whether we came from Krishna’s pastimes or from some other spiritual source, Srila Prabhupada said, “at the present you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [to Krishna], never mind what is your origin.”

 

“At the present moment you are in maya’s clutches,” he wrote, “so our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back to home, back to Godhead.”

Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic, Srila Prabhupada advised. “Now the fruit is there. Take it and enjoy.”

NOTE: The letters from Srila Prabhupada quoted in this article appear at greater length in Srila Prabhupada Siksamrta, Volume Two, pages 1157–1176.

 

The quotations from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura come from his commentary on Sri Brahma-samhita. The quotation from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura comes from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu—His Life and Precepts.

 

[Svarupa]

 

Sleeper-vada:

I am nitya-siddha, you are nitya-siddha, we are all nitya-siddha. Why do I not feel like a nitya-siddha now? because you just don't know you are a nitya-siddha.

 

Maya-vada:

I am God, you are God, we are all God. Why do I not feel like God now? because you just don't know you are God.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

 

[Kulapavana]

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

 

 

There is no support in shastra for that statement

[matarisvan]

 

There is no support in shastra for that statement

 

is that a problem?

 

Prabhupada can say anything and it becomes the truth for no reason other than he said it. This is what we get when people choose sentiments over discipline.

[Svarupa]

 

 

How did we ALL come to the material world

 

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

It is interesting to understand that when Jaya and Vijaya became demons for three births, they were still Jaya and Vijaya and remained there in Vaikuntha within the ‘eternal present’ while their secondary self-manifestation came here to the material world to act like demons.

This does not mean their fall was not a real experience because it was, they really believed they were demons but on return to Vaikuntha their departure was no more than a moment.

 

If one can understand the eternal presents of Vaikuntha and the divided time of past, present, and future in the material world, then one can understand, by dent of bhakti and the teaching of Srila Prabhupada, how this works

Jaya and Vijaya, as well as ever other jiva tattva in Goloka, can have numerous forms, just as Yasoda has limitless forms, and just as Krsna has so many forms in Vaikuntha, in Dvaraka, and here and there. There are lakhs of universes in the mahat-tattva also, in each cosmos, there is one Vrndavana, and Krsna is there in Vrndavana.

We cannot visualize this. An individual may be capable to calculate the stars in the sky or the sands on the earth, but he or she will not be able to praise the charming pastimes of Krsna.

It is a fact that the jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana in the same way as Jaya and Vijaya did, not as their eternal Svarupa body but as a secondary manifestation that ALL marginal living entities can activate if they choose to enter the material mahat-tattva.

Any liberated soul can also come with Krsna to assist in His pastimes, as Sridama and Subala do. Krsna sends them here only to help the rebellious baddha-jivas return back to their original position in Goloka and again re-establish and regain the memory of who they really are which is their eternal nitya-siddha body.

We are all everlastingly Krsna dasa, servants of Krsna, but now we have forgotten Krsna. The jiva can forget Krsna, so what does this actually mean?

It means that the jiva’s, now in the material world in their secondary manifestation, were once ‘aware’ they were serving Krsna. Actually, they still are, but have fallen out of sync with the ‘eternal present’ where their true eternal bodily form perpetually exists always engaged in Krsna's service, but now one has forgotten that service.

Some incorrectly say, due to them not understanding the concept of the ‘eternal present’, that, “Actually, this is not true, this is not how the jiva enters the material world, by coming down from Goloka as a secondary manifestation of their consciousness”. However, we now understand that this is exactly how the small minority of marginal living entities, enter the material world. Therefore their ideas and the proper understanding of tatastha-s'akti is not fully developed

Srila Prabhupada has told us that the vast majority of jiva-tattva’s never come to the material world in a secondary consciousness manifestation (baddha-jiva) to exploit the material energy.

The majority of marginal living entities always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always endeavour to please Bhagavan, and are always favourable to Him. By virtue of the divine sakti, they have the potency to stay permanently ‘aware, awake, alert’ of their eternal nitya-siddha bodily form and their loyalty and service to Krsna.

In fact, they have no connection with the material energy whatsoever, in effect, they are oblivious, due to their choice to always serve Krsna, that there is even a deluding influence called Maya, and thus most jivas NEVER come under Her enchantment because they are always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord.

So it is in this way they are eternally liberated (Always aware they are nitya-siddha) and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is Bhakti only, and they are not even cognizant to melancholy, death or fear."

Since ALL living reside in the spiritual world of eternal presents in their full devotional potential, devoid of any past or future, Maya stays far from them and does not affect them at all because she has no power in Vaikuntha or Goloka.

It is only when those minorities of jivas choose to forget Krishna and the svarupa nitya-siddha body they serve Krsna as, do they enter Maha-Vishnu’s temporary material world and come under the influence and temptations of His wife, Maya Devi.

 

Vyasadeva, who compiled the Puranas, has presented slokas about patanam (falldown), so has Bhaktivinode Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura mentioned fall and no fall of the jiva.

 

Srila Prabhupada has quoted Srimad Bhagavatam to stress the point about freewill causing the jiva to fall, so one cannot say that ISKCON devotees are the only ones who have spoken of the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha and Goloka.

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2671.htm

 

[matarisvan]

 

Vyasadeva, who compiled the Puranas, has presented slokas about patanam (falldown), so has Bhaktivinode Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura mentioned fall and no fall of the jiva.

 

Srila Prabhupada has quoted Srimad Bhagavatam to stress the point about freewill causing the jiva to fall, so one cannot say that ISKCON devotees are the only ones who have spoken of the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha and Goloka.

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2671.htm

 

 

I do not see a single line in your post showing support from Vyasa for such a concept.

[Svarupa]

 

I do not see a single line in your post showing support from Vyasa for such a concept.

 

Hey Einstein, put on your glasses on and have another look, just in case you still cannot see the link -

 

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2671.htm

 

 

Here is another thread also -

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/446399-fall-verses-padma-purana-2.html